Guild Wars 2

TheGrimm.5624:

morrolan.9608:

Threather.9354:

My opinion first glance is that as most of the people dont like DBL and people who like DBL dont mind alpine bl (because i havent seen them complain here that they only spend time in EB) is that having 3 alpine would be superior option.

Once again that vote has occurred and failed.

The 2-1 that voted for DBL already stated their opinion to keep, don’t build yours upon the vocal group that post. A lot of people don’t like confrontation on the forums and avoid it. That’s why we have more vocal people on both sides that do post and over post. People that were bored with ABL went to EB/EoTM/PvP/PvE. Know some people just now going back to ABL since the DBL vote failed. Getting a lot of questions on why did I pay for HoT when HoT features keep getting dropped. And before anyone says DBL wasn’t, go look at the HoT sales page.

So youre replying to me by replying to a reply that didnt read my post fully.
He only quoted first chapter of my post, he didnt read it fully, I said in my post that 3 alpine isnt an option, he just read a few sentences and got bored like a little kid and wrote a rage response to it.

hooray for another page bug

Xenesis.6389:

TheGrimm.5624:

And before anyone says DBL wasn’t, go look at the HoT sales page.

That’s a marketing throw in, the desert borderland access was given to every account type.

The wvw guild upgrades from the base game dumped into the guildhalls is what you paid for though, be angry about that.

True on the marketing but I also think they couldn’t figure out a way, nor would it have been a good idea to, limit play to particular maps based on purchases. But when you spend that much development as a feature to release at the same time as an expansion its more it was given free to people that didn’t want to buy the expansion. The concept of a new map encouraged a lot people to go HoT and then later they stated everyone would get it.

Running them together is a great way to gather data though. Keeping dbl in play has received a surprising amount of support in the polls, and yet quite a lot of people have expressed visceral hatred toward it.

What people say they’d do and what they actually do are often not the same, so comparing what people actually play when they have three options (ebg, alpine, dbl) is useful data that can confirm or reject polling data, and guide Anet’s future development.

It’s not as though it has to be a permanent map configuration, and at least it gives players the option of playing what they want whenever they’re playing. My bias on this is I stopped caring about score some time ago and pretty much just do whatever seems fun.

Actually lot of players voted to keep DBL, like I did, because we knew from earlier vote that the outcome of the next poll would be 2 alpine and 1 desert bl and playing just alpine in the future would be boring. But then anet sets a ridiculous 75% rule but seems thats not gonna stop the plan as 2 alp 1 dbl is winning with 78% atm, so I am happy.

Threather.9354:

TheGrimm.5624:

morrolan.9608:

Threather.9354:

My opinion first glance is that as most of the people dont like DBL and people who like DBL dont mind alpine bl (because i havent seen them complain here that they only spend time in EB) is that having 3 alpine would be superior option.

Once again that vote has occurred and failed.

The 2-1 that voted for DBL already stated their opinion to keep, don’t build yours upon the vocal group that post. A lot of people don’t like confrontation on the forums and avoid it. That’s why we have more vocal people on both sides that do post and over post. People that were bored with ABL went to EB/EoTM/PvP/PvE. Know some people just now going back to ABL since the DBL vote failed. Getting a lot of questions on why did I pay for HoT when HoT features keep getting dropped. And before anyone says DBL wasn’t, go look at the HoT sales page.

So youre replying to me by replying to a reply that didnt read my post fully.
He only quoted first chapter of my post, he didnt read it fully, I said in my post that 3 alpine isnt an option, he just read a few sentences and got bored like a little kid and wrote a rage response to it.

I apologize, I was more caught up in people still saying a majority still think to remove DBL which after the vote was not true. The part of post that was quoted from your original was partial and your second verse counters it. And I did read it but as I said, caught up in the concept after reading thru the rest of the posts. My apologizes.

Agree with those that say at this point in GW2s development WvW should be less about forcing fake perceived balance and more about maximum fun for the players left w/o driving away too many more of them. You might be surprised by the ways some players figure out how to utilize this mixed borderland to their advantage and the fun others have coming up with methods to counter that. There are a lot of different ways to enjoy WvW and making more options is always a good idea imho.

TheGrimm.5624:

True on the marketing but I also think they couldn’t figure out a way, nor would it have been a good idea to, limit play to particular maps based on purchases. But when you spend that much development as a feature to release at the same time as an expansion its more it was given free to people that didn’t want to buy the expansion. The concept of a new map encouraged a lot people to go HoT and then later they stated everyone would get it.

It was given for free much like eotm, because the way wvw works you don’t want to limit access to it through expansions, the same with spvp. You can try and limit other things like the guild upgrades or elite specs, but not the maps or you’ll separate your player base from each other.

I very well knew it would be given for free based on that, which made my decision on buying HoT even tougher, I didn’t need HoT for that but then I got information on the guildhalls and it kicked me in the head, well I guess I have to get it if I wanted to help my guild out. Oh and elite specs, which are still more powerful than the base specs.

Crescendo Forte.4821:

Simultaneous 3 way sounds disturbingly unbalance-able.

Sorry this quote was funny because that is the essence of WvW :P

Choppy.4183:

Running them together is a great way to gather data though. Keeping dbl in play has received a surprising amount of support in the polls, and yet quite a lot of people have expressed visceral hatred toward it.

What people say they’d do and what they actually do are often not the same, so comparing what people actually play when they have three options (ebg, alpine, dbl) is useful data that can confirm or reject polling data, and guide Anet’s future development.

It’s not as though it has to be a permanent map configuration, and at least it gives players the option of playing what they want whenever they’re playing. My bias on this is I stopped caring about score some time ago and pretty much just do whatever seems fun.

That’s one of the key points here. Seeing side by side numbers on any new map is a great test to how a map is received. Doing this for any new map is important to gauge its reception. Closed tests may work to work out the bugs, but after that you need something to be live to see how it will be really played upon. Different people and different servers and different tiers all play differently. With those variables already in place there is little likelihood that a closed population in a beta will give you complete feedback and that’s if they are dedicated to testing, which most players won’t since they are not making headway in game while testing. And let’s face it, people don’t do well with change and if those players also aren’t comm tags they will be heavily influenced to go where their tag is versus facing things on their own. I think that’s why, for what I saw, there were more havocs on the DBLs since they adapted better. Not all tiers were seeing this, according to forum posters.

I still cannot understand why people voted to keep DBLs.
Like people come here to cry that wvw is dying, then they proceed to vote to keep the DBL maps………
They are awful in every way. It’s literally another EotM map…

And as OP said, when we get the 2 ABL and 1 DBL thing are going be even more unbalanced…. the team that gets to be on the side with the DBL home BL will always win because no one will ever bother going into the DBLs to flip anything.

God this is going to be so bad lol. I cannot wait until people come back here to ask why even more wvwer are quitting.

Different people encountered different queuing behavior. Running at the same times gathers more information. Example, T3 after reward update, 1-2 DBLs queued up with EB. Week after ABL return, we were back to just EB outside of reset. So was that ABL that killed the population? Was it because of new and shinny stuff for people to try already worn off? 2 to 1 voted to keep DBL, that is a number we could all see, be it for whatever reason. So for the people that said remove, you really want 3 months (which start soon) of just DBL?

Vova.2640:

And as OP said, when we get the 2 ABL and 1 DBL thing are going be even more unbalanced…. the team that gets to be on the side with the DBL home BL will always win because no one will ever bother going into the DBLs to flip anything.

Flawed argument.

If everybody hate dbl, no one will play there. But someone has to or it couldnt get capped to be with. But even if we assume that a server has 100% of dbl at some point, your reasoning must apply to all sides of a matchup or it’s not true. That includes the server that has dbl as home. Which means it will be so easy for few people to swoop in and cap half the border before anyone even bother defending.

You are painting a very simplistic binary scenario that wont hold up in practice.

Even if it does, then so what? It’s just a border. No one care about borders. Everyone and their grandma is on EB anyway. Just like how it’s been since GW2 release.

Population is the big unbalancer. The balance difference between Alpine and Desert will have a very minimal effect in comparison.

In the balance discussion, there’s a large difference between an imbalance created by player behavior and those inherited from the games design.

What would have been an interested poll before the DBl was ever made would be to ask players to pick an existing PvE zone to use as an inspiration for the visual theme of a new Borderland map. I suspect Dry Top would not have won.

Vova.2640:

I still cannot understand why people voted to keep DBLs.
Like people come here to cry that wvw is dying, then they proceed to vote to keep the DBL maps………
They are awful in every way. It’s literally another EotM map…

And as OP said, when we get the 2 ABL and 1 DBL thing are going be even more unbalanced…. the team that gets to be on the side with the DBL home BL will always win because no one will ever bother going into the DBLs to flip anything.

God this is going to be so bad lol. I cannot wait until people come back here to ask why even more wvwer are quitting.

Everyone know DBL isn’t the reason WvW died… Otherwise, the people that quit because of DBL would be back when ABL came back. Now tell me why these people still not here? DBL was just used as an excuse for people who wanted to quit the game due other factors.

Technically DBL is far worse to defend than ABL due the super large side keeps and the distance between the objectives… Saying that the server that gets DBL as home BL will always win is utter nonsense as the people who care about score will go where the PPT is easier to get (which means, DBL). The people that hate DBL are people who usually roam and look for fights, and that’s because DBL was such a pain to navigate prior the changes made in April (Some of these people still hate it without even testing the map after these changes).

DeWolfe.2174:

What would have been an interested poll before the DBl was ever made would be to ask players to pick an existing PvE zone to use as an inspiration for the visual theme of a new Borderland map. I suspect Dry Top would not have won.

DBL is more based in the Silverwastes than Dry Top itself, altho both maps are the same region, the Maguuma Wastes.

My guess would be that some Ascalonian based map would have won if they ever made a the pool you suggest.

Jeknar.6184:

DeWolfe.2174:

What would have been an interested poll before the DBl was ever made would be to ask players to pick an existing PvE zone to use as an inspiration for the visual theme of a new Borderland map. I suspect Dry Top would not have won.

DBL is more based in the Silverwastes than Dry Top itself, altho both maps are the same region, the Maguuma Wastes.

My guess would be that some Ascalonian based map would have won if they ever made a the pool you suggest.

Timberline Falls for the variety in one zone

A very vocal few came on here to complain about the new map and how much they hated it. BUT the voting comes from anyone that plays as in ANet sent an in game mail to vote as soon as someone went up a level. So more people learned about the poll than just the few that come to the forums. That’s way it seems that all of a sudden there are more voting to keep the new map.

Which by the way, I found the new map much more fun to play in.

PyrateSilly.4710:

A very vocal few came on here to complain about the new map and how much they hated it. BUT the voting comes from anyone that plays as in ANet sent an in game mail to vote as soon as someone went up a level. So more people learned about the poll than just the few that come to the forums. That’s way it seems that all of a sudden there are more voting to keep the new map.

Which by the way, I found the new map much more fun to play in.

There’s also votes coming in from other sources like word of mouth and reddit. It definitely is a vocal minority of dissenters, in both the Delete and Simultaneous polls. The poll is evidence of that.

If it would be about me I would vote for forever alpine and DBL as new EOTM map ^^

Liston.9708:

Timberline Falls for the variety in one zone

Huh, that would be pretty much another ABL.

.

I could not care less about balance and scoring. I just want fights and I want variety. Therefore the shared BLs option got my vote.

It doesn’t matter what Anet does, Tears will be shed… Its a fact of life.

So far I don’t see a compelling argument against the 2/1 BL split. I don’t agree that it will be this big disadvantage to anyone. If anything it could be an advantage if some people decide to boycott it. I know my groups will go into them and paint them with our colours… so while some of the folks are staying away and whining… we will own their land.

Already voted for shared BL’s. Its really the only way to keep everyone playing. There are a lot of us that will simply go into hibernation if the DBLs’ only come back. Just like last time.

And just like now? Where a lot of the adherents of the DBL have stepped back and are not playing.

JUST REDUCE THE SIZE OF DBL SHEESH that was the only problem with it in the first place anyway!

Raf.1078:

And just like now? Where a lot of the adherents of the DBL have stepped back and are not playing.

I don’t think there are people who stopped playing when ABL came back…

Raf.1078:

And just like now? Where a lot of the adherents of the DBL have stepped back and are not playing.

I don’t know how true that statement is in general, however, I can tell you straight that after playing 3 years and then some on on the alpine map I have no desire to zone into it again in the foreseeable future. When it came back I went in there for like 10 minutes and decided to call it quits.

People complain about DBL terrain but ABL is not perfect in that regard either, the kittening cliffs are completely pointless (the only difference is that the route to traverse them quickly is so well known that people don’t even register them until someone fears them to their death when their skills are on cooldown). Alpine is better than desert probably overall, however, that doesn’t change the fact that we have played it to death.

Yes, before HoT release I wasn’t playing that much of WvW at all for quite a while (other than to occasionally restock on badges or make use of discounted prices), the new map was a reason to get interested in it again for me… for the time being that map is gone though.

Crise.9401:

Raf.1078:

And just like now? Where a lot of the adherents of the DBL have stepped back and are not playing.

I don’t know how true that statement is in general, however, I can tell you straight that after playing 3 years and then some on on the alpine map I have no desire to zone into it again in the foreseeable future. When it came back I went in there for like 10 minutes and decided to call it quits.

People complain about DBL terrain but ABL is not perfect in that regard either, the kittening cliffs are completely pointless (the only difference is that the route to traverse them quickly is so well known that people don’t even register them until someone fears them to their death when their skills are on cooldown).

No the difference is there are very few spots where you hit a cliff that is a dead end. Every cliffside in alpine has spots where you can drop down on ledges and make your way to the ground. They are still very dangerous to use in combat but they are way better than all the dead ends you hit in the dbl.

Jim Hunter.6821:

No the difference is there are very few spots where you hit a cliff that is a dead end. Every cliffside in alpine has spots where you can drop down on ledges and make your way to the ground. They are still very dangerous to use in combat but they are way better than all the dead ends you hit in the dbl.

I wasn’t really arguing which is better or worse, just pointing it out that the other map had ca. 3-4 years while desert had less than a year. Objectively it can be said that desert had its fair share of problems but so did Alpine when it was brand spanking new (Quaggans and Orbs come to mind off the top of my head, although I think the latter would have been salvageable as an interesting mechanic were it given a chance).

The fact is experience can remedy a lot of problems, is it a solution to those problems… no but it is a fact that once you know the map the topography stops being your enemy and becomes your friend (don’t take this too literally, well aware that desert had issues with some Revenant skills for example). The fact that dead ends exists is not a problem in itself, the problem is people do not know the map to be able to avoid them.

Dawdler.8521:

SkyShroud.2865:

becoz ppl are not interested in balancing, thats why they vote for unbalance option

ppl who are interested in balancing are always the minority, in every single game.

Luckily this vote has absolutely nothing to do with balance as the way a border look is irrelevant. We know this because 3 alpines and 1 EB are not in any way balanced. We see that every single day.

So yeah, maybe people interested in balancing are in minority.

And a minority of players also dont give a kitten what happens to the community after desert is rotated in for 3 months.

Seems pretty balanced to me.

Objectively speaking. 3 ABL 1 EBG is way more balanced than 2 ABL 1 DBL 1 EBG.

Also, for your last 2nd statement, I didn’t vote to keep DBL as the many polls since the start have been rather bias. A number of the poll are designed to lead players to certain directions. People vote to keep DBL because is a waste to ditch it but it come with price since dev did not make any promise they will further modify it to make it more likable and acceptable. People has to pay the price for thier choice like what the OP said, to suffer for months or to unbalance for eternity.

morrolan.9608:

SkyShroud.2865:

becoz ppl are not interested in balancing, thats why they vote for unbalance option

ppl who are interested in balancing are always the minority, in every single game.

Asynchronous doesn’t mean unbalanced thats not to say that the DBL isn’t unbalanced, it is, but 3 different BLs won;t necessarily be unbalanced.

I never say asynchronous isn’t unbalanced but like you have said, DBL is unbalance and thus objectively speaking, the rotation itself is unbalance. Furthermore, dev did not say they will modify it to make it more balanced or did they say when the 3rd BL is releasing.

zinkz.7045:

SkyShroud.2865:

becoz ppl are not interested in balancing, thats why they vote for unbalance option

Not really, I’m think balance is a good thing, but really when the game mode is massively imbalanced due to coverage/population and the game so poorly designed that the gameplay that is encouraged to “win” at PPT is entirely the opposite to what you want in a mass scale PvP mode why would I care less about the very minor effect having one different borderland will have when balance is already such a joke that most players who are not new or PvE players do not give a flying kitten about the score beyond which servers they may end up against for fights.

We have a different idea of balancing then. To me, map is map, population/coverage is population/coverage. Those two are of two different categories. If one had to use a map to create a “balance” for population/coverage, it is going from bad to worse.

Dbl has long distances and its more for guild play, and even guilds got to used for shorter distances. It doesnt have objective strategy like trebbing keep from a tower or tower from a keep but rather terrain strategy like how to avoid enemy and own annoying rock walls.

Yes DBL has plenty of space to have fights in near each keep but overall the insides of the keeps are much more unforgiving to attackers (which defenders should like), basically you can do something to enemy siege at inner keep in abl but in dbl when youre cataing youll be in a tight choke or deal with environmental bullkitten in dbl.

Being on DBL feels theres an assassin after you in real life, theres so many corners and chokes that you have to be on your toes almost always.

Yes theres good sides on DBL like north towers being much easier to flip and lords there not being particarly overpowered but they dont hold any importance anyways (and are hard to scout/flip back while youre scouting “garri”, so its not fun for scouts either) but the keeps are horrible design overall unless they make more open space near where youre cataing and remove gimmicky rock walls and invis buffs.

So Id say ill play on dbl when i feel like I can outsmart my enemy (or want to upgrade enemy garri for that matter) and theres plenty of fights there, if the map is empty or enemy/we are small , I prefer alpine.

So having 2 diff maps is superior choice, providing with me “variety”. This is of course just my opinion ofc, if people really like balance over fun. In summary ABL keeps are easier to upgrade and cover more objectives (scouts like this, supply depots are also closer to all walls in towers), Inner gates/walls are more “fun” to siege against (attackers like this) and you have enough time to come defend because you can spread arrowcarts out, because theres really only 1 spot to build catas in fire keep (slow) &1 in airkeep (only 1 ac spot for it) (defenders like this) and north towers are close from spawn + garri (also easily accessible/scouted while youre running to commander)

Jeknar.6184:

Raf.1078:

And just like now? Where a lot of the adherents of the DBL have stepped back and are not playing.

I don’t think there are people who stopped playing when ABL came back…

There are people that are bored with it and are playing less. Perhaps not on your server? When the DBL was the only map, I cut my wvw playtime by about 85%. I prefer the ABL though.

Why not have both? Then everyone can play.

And… the poll has been closed, mixed borderlands it will be.

Crise.9401:

And… the poll has been closed, mixed borderlands it will be.

Finally, this topic is now officially finished. Hopefully Anet can now move on to improving wvw in all sorts of other ways. Looking forward to seeing what else they might have tweaked in dbl when it shows up, again.

It would be funny if DBL showed up this reset.

Yea, but McKenna just posted that it will be sometime after the next Tuesday update…..they have some technical issues to iron out before running a mixed bl.

Jeknar.6184:

Raf.1078:

And just like now? Where a lot of the adherents of the DBL have stepped back and are not playing.

I don’t think there are people who stopped playing when ABL came back…

There were, lost some people in WvW because of ABL. Also know people that just moved to EoTM. A number of us have been just queing EB as well.

Wvw is already imbalanced by the fact of EB alone.

I would rather see anet work towards 4 (or more) unique maps with no “home” team.

Yes maps will always inheritedly favor one side. It’s anet job to try to keep the favoring relatively even.

If they keep the EB style over the borderland home team style we can continually add maps and have the queue ceiling and wvw population expand vs compete for a limited number of spots.

Having people not want to welcome newcomers because they may cause queues during an existing wvw players preferred time is one major flaw with wvw right now.

Teraphas.6210:

Wvw is already imbalanced by the fact of EB alone.

I would rather see anet work towards 4 (or more) unique maps with no “home” team.

Yes maps will always inheritedly favor one side. It’s anet job to try to keep the favoring relatively even.

If they keep the EB style over the borderland home team style we can continually add maps and have the queue ceiling and wvw population expand vs compete for a limited number of spots.

Having people not want to welcome newcomers because they may cause queues during an existing wvw players preferred time is one major flaw with wvw right now.

I think you hit it on the spot here. EB is a more popular map because it doesn’t favor a side which means it draws more people, and more people more fights which leads to people queuing where the action is.

Dawdler.8521:

If everybody hate dbl, no one will play there.

…Everyone hated DBLs.. The only time you would see a zerg there was reset night…
I was in T2 for whole time while DBL was here, no one cared about anything except ramparts. My old guild leader loved running in that map a lot so I joined him every now and then.. and I can tell ya it was empty 99% of the time… 1% had a ktrain going. zero fights outside of reset night.

Dawdler.8521:

But someone has to or it couldnt get capped to be with. But even if we assume that a server has 100% of dbl at some point, your reasoning must apply to all sides of a matchup or it’s not true. That includes the server that has dbl as home. Which means it will be so easy for few people to swoop in and cap half the border before anyone even bother defending.

You are painting a very simplistic binary scenario that wont hold up in practice.

Like I said we will have enemy zergs in the DBL at reset night.. after prime time ends, the defending side will cap everything and will just leave it.
Maybe I am wrong and even the defending side will not care a single bit about their home BL just because its DBL and small groups and that actually seem to like the DBL will just ktrain there freely… Idk. I know I will not go back in to the DBL map not to defend and not to attack.

Dawdler.8521:

Even if it does, then so what? It’s just a border. No one care about borders. Everyone and their grandma is on EB anyway. Just like how it’s been since GW2 release.

If you think EBG queues are bad now, then it is only gonna get worse. If they added 3 DBL maps, a lot of people would quit the game because they would get sick of waiting in queue for EBG.
Luckily we will most like end up having having 2 ABL maps, so that will help pull some pressure off EBG.
Though I personally would not like to see DBL at all, unless Anet does a MAJOR rework of that map.

Jeknar.6184:

Everyone know DBL isn’t the reason WvW died… Otherwise, the people that quit because of DBL would be back when ABL came back. Now tell me why these people still not here? DBL was just used as an excuse for people who wanted to quit the game due other factors.

Technically DBL is far worse to defend than ABL due the super large side keeps and the distance between the objectives… Saying that the server that gets DBL as home BL will always win is utter nonsense as the people who care about score will go where the PPT is easier to get (which means, DBL). The people that hate DBL are people who usually roam and look for fights, and that’s because DBL was such a pain to navigate prior the changes made in April (Some of these people still hate it without even testing the map after these changes).

HoT in general was what killed wvw. But DBL played a really big role in it too. We all know the state of wvw even before HoT was really bad, a lot of people were waiting for HoT to see what it brings and the disappointment of it just made a lot of people leave to play other games. Basically it was the last straw for a lot of people.

And yeah I can see why saying the side with the DBL will always win is wrong.
There is always a chance the defending side doesn’t care enough about DBL to defend it… so small havoc groups will just flip everything. I’ll admit I was wrong on that one.

I would love to see statistics after a few months of having DBLs just to see how many people actually go into the DBL map vs the 2 ABL maps.

Vova.2640:

…Everyone hated DBLs.. The only time you would see a zerg there was reset night…
I was in T2 for whole time while DBL was here, no one cared about anything except ramparts. My old guild leader loved running in that map a lot so I joined him every now and then.. and I can tell ya it was empty 99% of the time… 1% had a ktrain going. zero fights outside of reset night.

Keep in mind that we only saw the revamped border/stab for about 2 weeks before it flipped to alpine. I played on desert nearly every day since HoT (and yes I still think it has several core flaws) and saw actvity increase by like 500% on my server. Alpine is of course even more active, but still. There where people on the borders. There will be people on that 1 desert too.

I would be 100% behind DBL being assigned to the map that overpopulates all the maps with those huge Zergs. There should be a price to pay when a ratio becomes more than 2 to 1 and giving them DBL would be a price to pay, try to defend that now, BiZerg Inc.

Balthazzarr.1349:

So far I don’t see a compelling argument against the 2/1 BL split. I don’t agree that it will be this big disadvantage to anyone. If anything it could be an advantage if some people decide to boycott it. I know my groups will go into them and paint them with our colours… so while some of the folks are staying away and whining… we will own their land.

Spoken like a true PvD player.

Lord Kuru.3685:

Balthazzarr.1349:

So far I don’t see a compelling argument against the 2/1 BL split. I don’t agree that it will be this big disadvantage to anyone. If anything it could be an advantage if some people decide to boycott it. I know my groups will go into them and paint them with our colours… so while some of the folks are staying away and whining… we will own their land.

Spoken like a true PvD player.

wich is the majority of gw2 players…..

>:}