Guild Wars 2

Ragnar.4257:

So they changed Stab so it was no longer a “binary” totally-immune or totally-not-immune.

But what they’ve introduced instead is a new binary which hard-codes into the game the number of enemies you can fight as melee.

You have 5 stacks of stab.

Lets say 1 in 4 enemies drop CC on a push (push every 10 seconds, CC cooldown average 40s, so fair assumption).

4 Enemies -> You pass through all CC -> might as well have been no change.
8 Enemies -> You pass through all CC -> might as well have been no change.
12 Enemies -> You pass through all CC -> might as well have been no change.
16 Enemies -> You pass through all CC -> might as well have been no change.
20 Enemies -> You pass through all CC -> might as well have been no change.
24 Enemies -> Even with stab, you still get CC’d -> might as well not use stab at all.
28 Enemies -> Even with stab, you still get CC’d -> might as well not use stab at all.
32 Enemies -> Even with stab, you still get CC’d -> might as well not use stab at all.
36……. etc.

You can nit-pick on my exact numbers if you want, but the conclusion is the same:

There is now hard-coded into the game a number above which stability is worthless, and below which stability is the same as it was before.

This simply encourages blobbing up.

There is a reason why the stability changes have hardly affected sPvP or GvG or roaming, but have had a huge impact on large-scale WvW. There is also a reason why “zerg-busting” has basically disappeared from WvW. The reason is what I have posted above.

This is a good point however it goes the same way for stability. If 1 in 4 players brings stability then…

One problem with this is many more people seem to play the ranged/back-line (bringing cc) then play the front-line (bring stab). Making CC come out one ‘top’ of the tug of war.

I will agree however that this ‘encourages’ blobbing, and makes the number difference much more important when it comes to zergbusting. I don’t however think it should go back to the old way.

I like what somebody mentioned about all cc counts as 1 stack off stab not making sense (.25 sec daze and 3 sec stun both 1 stack). Why not just change stab to use the new ‘defiance’ bar and it get’s filled up not just from one stab but stab skills fill the bar by x% (bigger stab abilities fill it more). Only problem with this is that it would’t be boon strip-able (however they could just make boon stripping remove a chunk of the bar).

coglin.1867:

Dano.5298:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

coglin.1867:

Vornollo.5182:

Due to the Stability change, it’s simply impossible for small groups to be rewarded for skilled gameplay.
Everything is tipping in favour of the zerg, despite the claims of Anet to try and step away from that…

We’re they particularly that skilled, if they were that dependent on a single specific boon?

Not really, no. It makes me smile when I hear this “skilled play is dead” non-sense. It wasn’t anymore “skilled” to play the way we were than it is now. It is just a bit different depending on pop involved.

I’m all for a balance but reverting back to cc being useless is a huge no-no for me. If you are that skilled, you have found ways to deal with this like so many of us did and it is not only by pewpewing afar only. We do have plenty of clashes at close range. We are just a lot more cautious because now it’s possible to literally run into a wall as oppose to just ignore it.

I 100% disagree. with the way stab is working (essentially not at all) you don’t even have the opportunity to play skilled. You can’t fight zergs, you can kite them, but you can’t fight them. The game went from guild groups wanting to stay under 15 to apparently every guild tagging up, blobbing with necros and venoms.

I appreciate what your trying to say, but frankly, you lost me when you began to try to tell us what all the guilds are doing or thinking, because it isn’t true. That may be what you see in the guilds on your match up. That doesn’t make it true. I will not speak for most guilds, but my experience is different. So perhaps it is best if we speak for ourselves and our guilds, and not others in general. For one, my guild often has more then 15 on. Often we desire to run together.

Contrary to what your stating, we often have many guilds running 15 to 30 with thier own pins. Nothing about stability causes us to desire to run in larger groups. I generally see the same in our competitors. Because if they do not, then they are sending a blob after a smaller group, while the other groups take everythingg else.

The other issue iI see, is that it appears as if your suggesting it was different before. My experience suggest otherwise. As well, I have seen far to many videos of pre stab changes, from other servers with large blobs. There wouldn’t be thousands of videos of large blobs, pre stab changes, if it wasn’t equally as valuable to do so then. Thus, there is entirely too much video evidence to support this notion that stability being changed somehow made people start blobbing up. There is absolutely no evidence to support the idea that there are more blobs now then before.

Yeah our experiences are entirely different then. Thats okay, I mean I think there is a common ground here. Currently, Stab is entirely ineffective.. before, stab was a useful way to be able to navigate your group against a large zerg.

Perhaps a common ground would be to fix stability in a scaled fashion like whats been stated here several times. Would you be against that?

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

IDK for you but here we still call for stab and cc… and waters etc. I’m all for a balance but not going back to the ultimate reign of lazy stab and cc uselessness. NOBODY was playing without stab. NOBODY. It wasn’t ‘counter play’, it was ’let’s make an entire pan of the game irrelevant’. And frankly, ‘control’ is still by far the most crippled member of the damage/support/control triad.

Maybe putting a limit on some cc might be a way to balance things. I’m open to suggestions but going back is not an option for me. Yes, we do have more backlines than before but how is it surprising considering just how many wars and guards were dominating before in the boring hammer train meta?

As a side note, some ppl also seem to mix ‘skill’ with ‘build’ when they call on past glory days. Having a good build, or comp, doesn’t make you ‘skillful’ (specially when the build isn’t even from you and you merely obey the command of the doritos). It makes you better positioned for the battle ahead and maybe more disciplined. If you were playing in a hammer train with ppl you were used to, and all on your side were on voice com in the past while facing a non hammer train of random pugs, you weren’t winning BECAUSE of your awesome skills, you were winning first and foremost because of the builds and coordination you were enjoying and the enemy couldn’t.

A zerk war managing to hold his ground with just his shield equipped vs a cele d/d ele OTOH surely requires no small amount of skill. You aren’t carried by your build/comp for sure. In my book, skillful players do good even when they are at a clear distinct disadvantage, not when they win while surfing their cheese vs players who are not.

In skill groups we call everything, what I was saying is it makes calling stab in zerg busting (15-20vs60) usless, as it’s stripped away before you make it a few steps, and CC calls are not needed in bigger blobs because of how stab works now, CC is so effective even when only being use by face roll blobs, not saying it cant be MORE (much more) effective in skilled hands, just that it is far more effective now. Proper use of boon corruption/stripping and CC application was no issue for our skill groups, so in skill fights of even numbers we still had little issue with CCing the other side when done right, at the right time. No one played without stab because it was a counter to very effective CC, with the nerf it made CC over powered, as for small scale fights and people saying stab in 1vs1 being to OPed, it’s not, it just requires you to pay attention, if you are using a CC skill on someone with stab up well…Thats your fault for wasting the skill. When you create the effect of just throw more of it and it will stick at some point, that is not skill, or counter play, that is just brute force, which is what CC has become.

Also, before the changes, ranged comps were possible, just not effective for a skill team to run, because of lack of squad targeting, and aoe cap limits, which also reward blobbing, casters tend to spread out at range and leave easy DPS targets for the other team, where there is going to be little to no aoe cap limit on that one target and the mixed team will pick them off one by one. However with the stab nerf, and many CCs having no aoe cap and some of those also being unblockable or dodgable, making the only other counter stab.

The current way CC and stab work is broken and very one sided in larger fights, giving further advantage and reason to blob even more, where skill becomes less and less of a factor the more numbers you gather, to the point that even very good skill teams are at huge disadvantages without even taking into account being outnumbered. There needs to be a change to some limits on CC, or a buff/change to stab, that does not mean going back to how it was before, just that a rebalancing needs to take place, it would not hurt to see this take place with the numbers game and aoe caps as well, but I doubt we will ever see that.

Pink Ninja Man.4375:

Ragnar.4257:

So they changed Stab so it was no longer a “binary” totally-immune or totally-not-immune.

But what they’ve introduced instead is a new binary which hard-codes into the game the number of enemies you can fight as melee.

You have 5 stacks of stab.

Lets say 1 in 4 enemies drop CC on a push (push every 10 seconds, CC cooldown average 40s, so fair assumption).

4 Enemies -> You pass through all CC -> might as well have been no change.
8 Enemies -> You pass through all CC -> might as well have been no change.
12 Enemies -> You pass through all CC -> might as well have been no change.
16 Enemies -> You pass through all CC -> might as well have been no change.
20 Enemies -> You pass through all CC -> might as well have been no change.
24 Enemies -> Even with stab, you still get CC’d -> might as well not use stab at all.
28 Enemies -> Even with stab, you still get CC’d -> might as well not use stab at all.
32 Enemies -> Even with stab, you still get CC’d -> might as well not use stab at all.
36……. etc.

You can nit-pick on my exact numbers if you want, but the conclusion is the same:

There is now hard-coded into the game a number above which stability is worthless, and below which stability is the same as it was before.

This simply encourages blobbing up.

There is a reason why the stability changes have hardly affected sPvP or GvG or roaming, but have had a huge impact on large-scale WvW. There is also a reason why “zerg-busting” has basically disappeared from WvW. The reason is what I have posted above.

This is a good point however it goes the same way for stability. If 1 in 4 players brings stability then…

One problem with this is many more people seem to play the ranged/back-line (bringing cc) then play the front-line (bring stab). Making CC come out one ‘top’ of the tug of war.

I will agree however that this ‘encourages’ blobbing, and makes the number difference much more important when it comes to zergbusting. I don’t however think it should go back to the old way.

That that core problem.
The amount of Stab per player !! doesn´t increase but the amount of cc increase with every enemy guard and ele cause their cc isn´t capped on 5 man limit like every other skill in this game so in numbers bigger 30 on one side it´s totally broken :-(

coglin.1867:

Dano.5298:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

coglin.1867:

Vornollo.5182:

Due to the Stability change, it’s simply impossible for small groups to be rewarded for skilled gameplay.
Everything is tipping in favour of the zerg, despite the claims of Anet to try and step away from that…

We’re they particularly that skilled, if they were that dependent on a single specific boon?

Not really, no. It makes me smile when I hear this “skilled play is dead” non-sense. It wasn’t anymore “skilled” to play the way we were than it is now. It is just a bit different depending on pop involved.

I’m all for a balance but reverting back to cc being useless is a huge no-no for me. If you are that skilled, you have found ways to deal with this like so many of us did and it is not only by pewpewing afar only. We do have plenty of clashes at close range. We are just a lot more cautious because now it’s possible to literally run into a wall as oppose to just ignore it.

I 100% disagree. with the way stab is working (essentially not at all) you don’t even have the opportunity to play skilled. You can’t fight zergs, you can kite them, but you can’t fight them. The game went from guild groups wanting to stay under 15 to apparently every guild tagging up, blobbing with necros and venoms.

I appreciate what your trying to say, but frankly, you lost me when you began to try to tell us what all the guilds are doing or thinking, because it isn’t true. That may be what you see in the guilds on your match up. That doesn’t make it true. I will not speak for most guilds, but my experience is different. So perhaps it is best if we speak for ourselves and our guilds, and not others in general. For one, my guild often has more then 15 on. Often we desire to run together.

Contrary to what your stating, we often have many guilds running 15 to 30 with thier own pins. Nothing about stability causes us to desire to run in larger groups. I generally see the same in our competitors. Because if they do not, then they are sending a blob after a smaller group, while the other groups take everythingg else.

The other issue iI see, is that it appears as if your suggesting it was different before. My experience suggest otherwise. As well, I have seen far to many videos of pre stab changes, from other servers with large blobs. There wouldn’t be thousands of videos of large blobs, pre stab changes, if it wasn’t equally as valuable to do so then. Thus, there is entirely too much video evidence to support this notion that stability being changed somehow made people start blobbing up. There is absolutely no evidence to support the idea that there are more blobs now then before.

Look can you link any videos of small guilds groups taking out large zergs(like 3 to one odds) a bunch of times in higher tiers AFTER the stab changes because I don’t see them anymore. If people where going 20vs60 before the changes and now the best you can do is kite the blob for an hour there is a problem(dont even try to tell me that I or my guild is bad because we will destroy 99% of guilds in this game), getting downs is not the problem its regrouping after the bomb when there is 40 of the 60 who stood in your bomb and did not die because of the aoe cap stun locking you to do death. The aoe cap is there because of lag problems and before the stab changes you where able to stay mobile and stay out of all the aoe’s that where being thrown at you, it was not a perfect solution because CC’s where not that useful but it was better then having no tools to fight outnumbered.

TLDR:
1. This game needs more tools to use to be able to win outnumbered fights because the two main tools where taken out (no aoe cap and pre nerf stab).
2. It’s not like many hardcore guilds have not tried to work it out without stab but it turns out that getting perma stunned to death takes all skill away and leaves us powerless to even try to use skill.

^ what those people said.

I suppose the best option to do is change how the limitless CC works right now. Like many already suggested, just change those to 5 to 10 targets and then they disappear. This wouldn’t change anything in small scale (5 or less & sPvP), but would make stability a bit more useful in big encounters as your stability would strip their CC.

I don’t really want to go back to the old either, so this could work… for now.

They just need to give other frontliners more Stabilty Scrapper, Reaper or Tempest. In WvW i only see lfm guardian only

Game have huge amount tools that help you win outnumbered fights, but players just aren’t skilled/smart enough to use those.

Lol again though, I’m not asking for an easy button to run over huge groups. Just asking to be able to move a group in a large Zerg.. Especially when that’s all anyone does anymore.

Olli.9028:

Pink Ninja Man.4375:

Ragnar.4257:

So they changed Stab so it was no longer a “binary” totally-immune or totally-not-immune.

But what they’ve introduced instead is a new binary which hard-codes into the game the number of enemies you can fight as melee.

You have 5 stacks of stab.

Lets say 1 in 4 enemies drop CC on a push (push every 10 seconds, CC cooldown average 40s, so fair assumption).

4 Enemies -> You pass through all CC -> might as well have been no change.
8 Enemies -> You pass through all CC -> might as well have been no change.
12 Enemies -> You pass through all CC -> might as well have been no change.
16 Enemies -> You pass through all CC -> might as well have been no change.
20 Enemies -> You pass through all CC -> might as well have been no change.
24 Enemies -> Even with stab, you still get CC’d -> might as well not use stab at all.
28 Enemies -> Even with stab, you still get CC’d -> might as well not use stab at all.
32 Enemies -> Even with stab, you still get CC’d -> might as well not use stab at all.
36……. etc.

You can nit-pick on my exact numbers if you want, but the conclusion is the same:

There is now hard-coded into the game a number above which stability is worthless, and below which stability is the same as it was before.

This simply encourages blobbing up.

There is a reason why the stability changes have hardly affected sPvP or GvG or roaming, but have had a huge impact on large-scale WvW. There is also a reason why “zerg-busting” has basically disappeared from WvW. The reason is what I have posted above.

This is a good point however it goes the same way for stability. If 1 in 4 players brings stability then…

One problem with this is many more people seem to play the ranged/back-line (bringing cc) then play the front-line (bring stab). Making CC come out one ‘top’ of the tug of war.

I will agree however that this ‘encourages’ blobbing, and makes the number difference much more important when it comes to zergbusting. I don’t however think it should go back to the old way.

That that core problem.
The amount of Stab per player !! doesn´t increase but the amount of cc increase with every enemy guard and ele cause their cc isn´t capped on 5 man limit like every other skill in this game so in numbers bigger 30 on one side it´s totally broken :-(

There are abilities that grant stability to nearby party members so more people running these utility means more stability. I do agree there are some cc abilities that have ‘unlimited’ targets and there is currently no way to do the same on stability side. That is what the banner (turtle I believe) is bringing to the table. I also will agree that cc is more available so you kinda have to stack ‘front-line’ (stability granting players) 4 to ever 1 ‘back-line’ (running cc) player you are facing. Thus ‘back-line’ is deemed more effective and is ‘easier’ to play so the more play it and then we get where we are today with “Stability sucks and CC is op” or something along those lines.

EDIT: Adding this link to forum with an idea to help stability out some.

Dano.5298:

Lol again though, I’m not asking for an easy button to run over huge groups. Just asking to be able to move a group in a large Zerg.. Especially when that’s all anyone does anymore.

That is not all anyone does anymore. So making assuptions. Ones that are inaccurate. Then “lol” when other disagree with your expectations. The thing is, you personal experience does not define everyone elses. What you see on your server does not define every server. Thus when you want changes based on your experience alone, you will get differing feedback.

coglin.1867:

Dano.5298:

Lol again though, I’m not asking for an easy button to run over huge groups. Just asking to be able to move a group in a large Zerg.. Especially when that’s all anyone does anymore.

That is not all anyone does anymore. So making assuptions. Ones that are inaccurate. Then “lol” when other disagree with your expectations. The thing is, you personal experience does not define everyone elses. What you see on your server does not define every server. Thus when you want changes based on your experience alone, you will get differing feedback.

all right I’m sorry, I meant the lol as more of a “hmmm” than a hahaha but not sure how you could have ascertained that one.

Assumptions aside, that is my experience and therefore is what matters to me. I also do not believe my complaint to be out of left field whatsoever, as many, many (and countless more people who have since quit because of stab) absolutely hate the stability changes.

Just not sure what we are gaining.. Especially since its just a scaling thing.. just at a certain point numbers wise, stability gets less and less good. Why insist on this lack of fluidity with the mechanics? It just is unbalanced and frankly stupidly so, considering its just numbers wise gets funky.

I’m somewhat torn on this cause I’m not sure if it’s the CC/Stab debate or the ranged damage creep debate.

I feel like it started with zerker LB ranger, then necro changes that made glass pretty much uber optimal, then mesmer got buffed, then dmg. condis got buffed (burning/poison especially), then engi mortar got buffed, etc. etc.

Not sure what’s worse a a frontliner getting stunned kittened with CC or the HP melt one second later from a zerg that’s 80% backline. You can run full PVT hero and you still melt there’s so much damage all over the place now in zerg fights. If you get to an enemy backline it’s a murderfest so maybe it is the CC/stab debate, but I’m not sure if it’s just the fact that bads can pretty much just AOE dmg. dump on top of themselves on any melee push therefore making any kind of sustained fontline push into larger groups (one where you actually get outs not just downs) very difficult.

my warr, guard, and upcomming Engi hammer would thank you for stab change, now its a littl underpowered to all the range cc & bombing u to death in seconds
being an exclusively frontline in your face kinda player, its walking a tightrope atm

Welp so a bit into HoT and not only is Revanent’s stab entirely useless, there are also way more hard CCs and way more soft CCs, especially since lemongrass was nerfed.

Why Anet? Why turn the game into a frustrating mess where you try to move and get either permanently stuck or pinball’d between knockmbacks. Well Hey, at least they made the guild arenas so that you can fall off the map.

Seriously, I cannot understand Anet. Brilliant game designers, horrific customer curtesy or people skills. The new map is fantastic. Personally I don’t hate either that lords take longer to kill. But why do they want their players to get knocked around and stuck nonstop. What an absolute waste.

I agree with this. The mass of CC that’s been injected for PvE break-bars has led to a need for better counters in WvW.

Junkpile.7439:

I think that guilds should win against blobs if they have lot’s of guardians and they know how to spam 1.

I really enjoyed this line, personally. Cheers.

I also kind of like the idea of the AoE CC only applying to X players before dissipating. I’m surprised they’ve allowed certain AoE to have infinite potential while the rest of the AoE is severely limited.

IMO, I think a simple option would just be to have diminishing returns on CC; that way being hit with CC is still effective but you don’t get to infinite combo people to death as easily. Such an idea would only effect zergs. It was funny to infinite redizzy people 20 years ago in the original Street Fighter II, but come on, it’s 2015 people. It was dumb then and it is dumb now.

As a guardian main and sometimes as literally the only guardian in a pug group thingy, I don’t necessarily think the whole thing is impossible but it certainly can be very not fun at times. I can get through most messes on guardian or engineer but I’ve stopped playing my warrior a while back since I don’t seem to be anything besides a punching bag. Oohhh 40s cd balanced stance. >.>

With all the new pulls/pushes/traps and other crowd control mechanics they could probably double the stability stacks, make it unremovable for 3 seconds and still see reason to nerfhammer half of the new skills in game.

…but then again why would people grind for elites if they weren’t OP as kitten.

Ragnar.4257:

So they changed Stab so it was no longer a “binary” totally-immune or totally-not-immune.

But what they’ve introduced instead is a new binary which hard-codes into the game the number of enemies you can fight as melee.

You have 5 stacks of stab.

Lets say 1 in 4 enemies drop CC on a push (push every 10 seconds, CC cooldown average 40s, so fair assumption).

4 Enemies -> You pass through all CC -> might as well have been no change.
8 Enemies -> You pass through all CC -> might as well have been no change.
12 Enemies -> You pass through all CC -> might as well have been no change.
16 Enemies -> You pass through all CC -> might as well have been no change.
20 Enemies -> You pass through all CC -> might as well have been no change.
24 Enemies -> Even with stab, you still get CC’d -> might as well not use stab at all.
28 Enemies -> Even with stab, you still get CC’d -> might as well not use stab at all.
32 Enemies -> Even with stab, you still get CC’d -> might as well not use stab at all.
36……. etc.

You can nit-pick on my exact numbers if you want, but the conclusion is the same:

There is now hard-coded into the game a number above which stability is worthless, and below which stability is the same as it was before.

This simply encourages blobbing up.

There is a reason why the stability changes have hardly affected sPvP or GvG or roaming, but have had a huge impact on large-scale WvW. There is also a reason why “zerg-busting” has basically disappeared from WvW. The reason is what I have posted above.

this guy basically nailed it. It is how it affected wvw.
+1

Hvaran.6327:

Ragnar.4257:

So they changed Stab so it was no longer a “binary” totally-immune or totally-not-immune.

But what they’ve introduced instead is a new binary which hard-codes into the game the number of enemies you can fight as melee.

You have 5 stacks of stab.

Lets say 1 in 4 enemies drop CC on a push (push every 10 seconds, CC cooldown average 40s, so fair assumption).

4 Enemies -> You pass through all CC -> might as well have been no change.
8 Enemies -> You pass through all CC -> might as well have been no change.
12 Enemies -> You pass through all CC -> might as well have been no change.
16 Enemies -> You pass through all CC -> might as well have been no change.
20 Enemies -> You pass through all CC -> might as well have been no change.
24 Enemies -> Even with stab, you still get CC’d -> might as well not use stab at all.
28 Enemies -> Even with stab, you still get CC’d -> might as well not use stab at all.
32 Enemies -> Even with stab, you still get CC’d -> might as well not use stab at all.
36……. etc.

You can nit-pick on my exact numbers if you want, but the conclusion is the same:

There is now hard-coded into the game a number above which stability is worthless, and below which stability is the same as it was before.

This simply encourages blobbing up.

There is a reason why the stability changes have hardly affected sPvP or GvG or roaming, but have had a huge impact on large-scale WvW. There is also a reason why “zerg-busting” has basically disappeared from WvW. The reason is what I have posted above.

this guy basically nailed it. It is how it affected wvw.
+1

I might add how could this possibly not make sense? Can anyone find issue with this post? Its just really silly lmao change it anet because ur game could be so fun!

Rev stability is a joke, most of the time the Rev outruns their own stability, god forbid they actually have swiftness up because then its almost a certainty that you’re not going to get any Stab.

The animation is far to slow, it should be cast in front of the Rev not ontop/behind, I personally don’t even bother with Dwarf stance because it’s a wasted utility most of the time.

Noblehawk.8036:

With all the new pulls/pushes/traps and other crowd control mechanics they could probably double the stability stacks, make it unremovable for 3 seconds and still see reason to nerfhammer half of the new skills in game.

…but then again why would people grind for elites if they weren’t OP as kitten.

After a week, how would people conclude they were OP without grinding for them in order to actually try them?

I do not find the elite specs to be OP. In several cases, I find I do better to not use the elite specs in many cases.