Guild Wars 2

Will the winning servers keep moving down the server list?

(Facepalm)

Will players keep associating this new match-up system with clearly defined tiers of servers?

Made no mention of tiers in my post. SOR wins the last of the old match up system. Gets RNG with TC / SOS from this new system. SOR are #1 on the leader board this week soon to be #2 and is winning this weak and losing rating.

No doubt a new system needs time to adjust. RNG math for the win!

Edit: here is the official leader board https://leaderboards.guildwars2.com/en/na/wvw

SoR is losing rating because they haven’t kept TC and SoS to as low a score as the relative ratings predict. at around the time when SoR had 250K points, TC should have had 120K and SoS should have had 60K.

-ken

Snowreap.5174:

SoR is losing rating because they haven’t kept TC and SoS to as low a score as the relative ratings predict. at around the time when SoR had 250K points, TC should have had 120K and SoS should have had 60K.

-ken

Exactly.. meaning SoR can continue moving down the server list losing rating each way until they hit the bottom servers…

Wouldn’t that be a hoot. System working as intended.

highly doubt anybody on SOR wants to appease a RNG computer. TC / SOS have been great sports and tip of the hat to them for puttin up with SOR.

Now I demand JQ and BG

DeadlySynz.3471:

Snowreap.5174:

SoR is losing rating because they haven’t kept TC and SoS to as low a score as the relative ratings predict. at around the time when SoR had 250K points, TC should have had 120K and SoS should have had 60K.

-ken

Exactly.. meaning SoR can continue moving down the server list losing rating each way until they hit the bottom servers…

Wouldn’t that be a hoot. System working as intended.

well, I guess. if they don’t care about their rating and want to let this continue, that’s totally up to them. if rating matters to them, they need to watch the other servers scores and keep them in check.

I assume that if you’re posting here about it, rating matters to you. so you need to persuade your teammates that it should matter to them too.

I think a lot of people don’t understand the rating system and think that the only thing that matters is winning (specifically, that winning by a little bit is good enough). but the rating system doesn’t really care who wins, what it cares about is how well you scored relative to your competitors, compared to how your relative ratings would have predicted. gaining rating isn’t about winning, it’s about beating expectations.

-ken

Snowreap.5174:

well, I guess. if they don’t care about their rating and want to let this continue, that’s totally up to them. if rating matters to them, they need to watch the other servers scores and keep them in check.

I assume that if you’re posting here about it, rating matters to you. so you need to persuade your teammates that it should matter to them too.

I think a lot of people don’t understand the rating system and think that the only thing that matters is winning (specifically, that winning by a little bit is good enough). but the rating system doesn’t really care who wins, what it cares about is how well you scored relative to your competitors, compared to how your relative ratings would have predicted. gaining rating isn’t about winning, it’s about beating expectations.

-ken

Supposedly SoR plays for the fights, not points.

Their fair weather players like to play for points it seems. They have a lot more when they started winning points than when they were getting beat.

Looks like TSym plays for points. They probably should have picked a different server that fit their play style since they want to play for points.

Yeah on SOR we have the human element. One that does not care about raitings. We actually enjoy fighting other players that have the will to wipe us. That PPT is for wizards and trolls.

Snowreap.5174:

DeadlySynz.3471:

Snowreap.5174:

SoR is losing rating because they haven’t kept TC and SoS to as low a score as the relative ratings predict. at around the time when SoR had 250K points, TC should have had 120K and SoS should have had 60K.

-ken

Exactly.. meaning SoR can continue moving down the server list losing rating each way until they hit the bottom servers…

Wouldn’t that be a hoot. System working as intended.

well, I guess. if they don’t care about their rating and want to let this continue, that’s totally up to them. if rating matters to them, they need to watch the other servers scores and keep them in check.

I assume that if you’re posting here about it, rating matters to you. so you need to persuade your teammates that it should matter to them too.

I think a lot of people don’t understand the rating system and think that the only thing that matters is winning (specifically, that winning by a little bit is good enough). but the rating system doesn’t really care who wins, what it cares about is how well you scored relative to your competitors, compared to how your relative ratings would have predicted. gaining rating isn’t about winning, it’s about beating expectations.

-ken

Which doesn’t make a lick of difference when your outmatched and outnumbered to the point you can’t even make it out of your own base.

The ratings don’t mean anything to me; the only thing that matters is fair/even competition, and right now that isn’t happening.

There is one glaring aspect of this rating system people don’t seem to understand. Once the system stabilizes, the match-ups are going to be identical to what we had 3 weeks ago. If you took all the ratings as we speak and matched them accordingly, the match-ups are pretty much identical.

Now the question is, what is most important to a player?

1) Their rating, regardless of whether their completely curb stomped
2) Even and fair competition that really could go either way

I’m guessing the vast majority would care more about option 2. I’m sure there are people out there who care about option 1 more.

The players that fall into the option 1 category though, I really don’t understand how they could be enjoying the match-ups if they can’t muster enough people to even get 10ft out of their spawn point. Yes this is happening on many match-ups. How exactly can someone enjoy it? I do know that many are not, because many have left.

Snowreap.5174:

SoR is losing rating because they haven’t kept TC and SoS to as low a score as the relative ratings predict. at around the time when SoR had 250K points, TC should have had 120K and SoS should have had 60K.

-ken

Yep. Just think of it as a Football point spread…nothing more nothing less.

Without us for a week and already missing us, this just cannot work, Sanctum of Rall you are too possessive we need to talk.

The hero in that matchup is how well Sea of Sorrows is doing, even though they are so out manned. They are gaining 55 rating because they are putting up a fight when everyone, including the rating system, expected them to roll over and tick at 10 24-7. That’s not happening and they are getting rewarded for it.

Good job Sea of Sorrows.

MagiKarp.8201:

Without us for a week and already missing us, this just cannot work, Sanctum of Rall you are too possessive we need to talk.

Hi, my name is SoR…and I’m a BG-holic.

JaredKincade.9761:

The hero in that matchup is how well Sea of Sorrows is doing, even though they are so out manned. They are gaining 55 rating because they are putting up a fight when everyone, including the rating system, expected them to roll over and tick at 10 24-7. That’s not happening and they are getting rewarded for it.

Good job Sea of Sorrows.

LOL, im sure they feel that way.

Mindtrick.5190:

JaredKincade.9761:

The hero in that matchup is how well Sea of Sorrows is doing, even though they are so out manned. They are gaining 55 rating because they are putting up a fight when everyone, including the rating system, expected them to roll over and tick at 10 24-7. That’s not happening and they are getting rewarded for it.

Good job Sea of Sorrows.

LOL, im sure they feel that way.

Why not, that was SOR’s story when we beat them 12 weeks in a row in Tier 2.

SoR looses rating now and all former T1 server will do sooner or later, as the old system was stuck in it’s design error for much to long.
The last NA T1-T2 exchange of the old system happened in week 08.
It needed already both
A T1 domination of SoS by 325 705: 168 393 : 117 061
AND
A T2 domination by Blackgate: 302 661 : 152 840 :149 939
for a match change to happen.

The distance between T1 and T2 ratings accumulated to very extreme result already.
These extremely boosted ranks are just the artificial result of 9 month buggy old system, and cannot be defended in normal matches as the current SoR match show.

They will adapt now in the new system, and the order in which the servers are hit by it is random, but it will nevertheless hit all, some sooner, some later.

The problem with the rating system is that SoR may not be interested in keeping enemies at 10 PPT 24/7. That’s really not fun for either side. Similar circumstance may exist with FA and BP.

Gliko assumes a fairly stable performance level from each opponent. Win-Up-Lose-Down is not the solution because there is too much chaos.

Systems that might work better would be accumulated victories or accumulated score differentials.

LOL apparently OP doesn’t understand how ratings work…yes if you win you will lose rating until all ratings become more accurate. The T1 ratings for almost all servers was too high. They are just readjusting to the appropriate ratings.

T1 Servers and other servers that had stagnated had a self perpetuating gap between them and the tiers below or above them. Now because of the RNG the rating system can get a true rating over a greater range of servers those numbers will be more accurate and provide a more accurate assessment of the server. So in other words…kitten and wait a month or so :-P

Snowreap.5174:

SoR is losing rating because they haven’t kept TC and SoS to as low a score as the relative ratings predict. at around the time when SoR had 250K points, TC should have had 120K and SoS should have had 60K.

-ken

No, SoR would be losing rating against BG simply due to the nature of who they are fighting in the match up. If in fact the ratings math has not been adjusted to realistically reflects the random factor thrown into the match up, then it is never going to work and will be flawed permanently.

There is also a game play issue with making it a requirement to have severe blowouts like you mentioned to just keep rating. Exciting and active play normally doesn’t involve PvEing empty objectives for the sake of running up score or spawn camping people to oblivion. Expecting servers to do that to maintain rating is horribly flawed to the point, where if it persists, nobody will be playing this game 6 months from now.

Gamadorn.2659:

LOL apparently OP doesn’t understand how ratings work…yes if you win you will lose rating until all ratings become more accurate. The T1 ratings for almost all servers was too high. They are just readjusting to the appropriate ratings.

T1 Servers and other servers that had stagnated had a self perpetuating gap between them and the tiers below or above them. Now because of the RNG the rating system can get a true rating over a greater range of servers those numbers will be more accurate and provide a more accurate assessment of the server. So in other words…kitten and wait a month or so :-P

You shouldn’t laugh at someone to be honest as you are being a little shortsighted your self. As I mentioned before there is the game play issue involved with running up scores that will skew results from the very beginning. If the data is inaccurate from the start, it will never be correct in a timely enough manner to keep people playing this game. To be honest, even a month is too long in today’s gaming world…..

Anyways, there is also gross long term issue with this system that you are missing as well that would occur even if Anet did change up the maths to accommodate the RNG. As long as the variance is as high as it is, there are going to be huge problems in W3 game play.

JaredKincade.9761:

The hero in that matchup is how well Sea of Sorrows is doing, even though they are so out manned. They are gaining 55 rating because they are putting up a fight when everyone, including the rating system, expected them to roll over and tick at 10 24-7. That’s not happening and they are getting rewarded for it.

Good job Sea of Sorrows.

Speaking with first hand knowledge, this is more of a results of SoR guilds preferring to do other things like leveling alts, taking vacations to other servers to get GvG’s in, or simply not playing at all.

It is not fun or rewarding game play to paint BLs one color and/or spawn camp them into oblivion. When you put the #1 ranked server vs a T4 server (at the time, we dont have tiers now), everyone loses including Anet. I think it is safe to say that if you can step away from the trolling and bitterness and be honest with yourself, we all would prefer to have fun, rewarding, and active game play.

DeadlySynz.3471:

Now the question is, what is most important to a player?

1) Their rating, regardless of whether their completely curb stomped
2) Even and fair competition that really could go either way

I’m guessing the vast majority would care more about option 2. I’m sure there are people out there who care about option 1 more.

The players that fall into the option 1 category though, I really don’t understand how they could be enjoying the match-ups if they can’t muster enough people to even get 10ft out of their spawn point. Yes this is happening on many match-ups. How exactly can someone enjoy it? I do know that many are not, because many have left.

You speak truth. To add to your comment because it is important to say it again, it is absolutely no fun being on the other side either. It is lose-lose for all involved. The people being ground into oblivion find no more enjoyment in their game play than the people being forced to do it simply to keep themselves from being bored (providing they dont just log off and find something more fun to do)

I am on HOD, Borlis Pass can steam roll anything we hold in a manner of minutes when they choose to, they are simply more numerous, better organized and better skilled.

There have been times in the last week where they have owned every control point in EB and our BL, yet the stat system says they are not beating us badly enough.

The way it appears to me the only way they can keep rating or improve it against us would be to taken everything and spawn camp us for days.

I can tell when a BP zerg is approaching just by watching my computer slow down from the lag caused by the sheer numbers they often bring.

With the exception of a few hours after reset, I don’t think we have ever pulled anywhere close to even with them, most of the time they have an almost complete shut out of control points, or we manage to take a handful during off hours, which they take back in a few hours.

Even thought people have been kind enough to explain the underlying math to the system, it still just seems absurd the degree to which the stronger side is expected to wipe the map in order to stay even or improve rating.

It would seem this will lead to near permanent lopsided matches as strong servers simply can’t meet the formulas expectations while the weaker servers gain points.

The end result in the quality of the matchups would seem to be worse than if they were just totally random.

As to the rating’s somehow becoming more ‘true’ over time, well it sounds like the cure is worse than the disease. There is no guarantee the end result will be positive. If it works as intended who benefits, one or two good worlds that were near the cusp of breaking into the top rankings.

Everyone else is right back where they started, except most matches will continue to be blowouts, as it simply seems very rare for any winning server to maintain or improve rating.

That does not sound like it is worth destroying what was for most worlds a pretty decent match up system where sides were evenly matched.

Personally I think the Glicko system is a load of academic crap. I’l take rankings based on wins any day in any competition. Someone at RNDnet is too pretentious for their own good and seems intent to run this game into the ground just to enforce their complicated game theories.

the need for “blowout” wins in order to keep rating points could have been even worse. let’s look at SoR vs SoS. comparing just the relative ratings, SoR needs a Glicko-2 score of 0.9041 in order to avoid losing rating to SoS.

ordinarily, you might expect that a Glicko-2 score of 0.9041 means that SoR needs 90.41% of the points. in other words, SoR would need about 90 points for every 10 points that SoS gets.

but ArenaNet runs the game scores through this formula first:

wAGlickoScore = (sin((wAPercent – 0.5) * Pi) + 1) * 0.5

(for full details see http://www.guildwars2guru.com/news/884-the-math-behind-wvw-ratings/)

what that formula does is, it makes those high scores more easily achieved by reducing the actual score needed. in order to get a Glicko-2 score of 0.9041, SoR actually only needs 80% of the score, or 40 points for every 10 points SoS gets.

it should be a lot easier for SoR to get 40 points for every 10 points SoS gets, especially compared to the difficulty of getting 90 points for every 10 from SoS.

-ken

Um this glicko issue has been an issue for at least 6 months now and I’ve been calling it out as kitten for that long. SoR isn’t the first one to deal with losing rating by winning. You didn’t seem to care when it wasn’t effecting you, in fact you made fun of other servers for not “playing glicko correctly”. Learn to play glicko correctly.

pot.6805:

Um this glicko issue has been an issue for at least 6 months now and I’ve been calling it out as kitten for that long. SoR isn’t the first one to deal with losing rating by winning. You didn’t seem to care when it wasn’t effecting you, in fact you made fun of other servers for not “playing glicko correctly”. Learn to play glicko correctly.

Now that you mention it, I also seem to remember two weeks solid of SOR telling BG we were playing the glicko system poorly lol.

The glicko system itself hasn’t changed. Just how the servers are matched up.

You can’t have had an accurate rating if you’re worried that fighting 21 out of the 23 servers changes it.

Is it just me or does every BG post as of late reek of fear?

So SOR has to petty much spawn camp both servers to get a positive rating.

That kinda will ruin any fun for either side.

Mordyph.2104:

So SOR has to petty much spawn camp both servers to get a positive rating.

That kinda will ruin any fun for either side.

I thought ruining fun for all sides was the WvW team’s new focus?

Mordyph.2104:

So SOR has to petty much spawn camp both servers to get a positive rating.

That kinda will ruin any fun for either side.

I am glad you get the big picture and can see an underlying issue. Perhaps you can explain it to those who don’t. I tried

JaredKincade.9761:

The glicko system itself hasn’t changed.

You are right, the glicko system hasn’t changed. Therein lies the exact problem because it is no longer contextually relevant

Arkard.3970:

Mordyph.2104:

So SOR has to petty much spawn camp both servers to get a positive rating.

That kinda will ruin any fun for either side.

I thought ruining fun for all sides was the WvW team’s new focus?

It seems like your goal here is to make sure that Sanctum of Rall’s rating only goes up, rather than that WvW be fun.

I do feel like if Sanctum of Rall’s rating goes down, that’s not a bad thing. Might have been just in the reverse of the tier 8 trap, where ratings were artificially low, maybe fightin the same high rating servers over and over again just kept the ratings in tier 1 artificially high compared to the other tiers. That is not to say they shouldn’t be higher but maybe they were higher than they ought to have been.

There are 4 match ups that are less balanced than Sanctum of Rall’s right now (including mine), so it’s not like it’s their situation is unique.

If people cared about rating, HoD would still be around and we would all be on it claiming how good we are for beating that one newbie that picked another server.

covenn.7165:

JaredKincade.9761:

The glicko system itself hasn’t changed.

You are right, the glicko system hasn’t changed. Therein lies the exact problem because it is no longer contextually relevant

It never really was contextually relevant. It’s a system for rating the performance of teams and individuals in competitions with static team sizes and limited duration.

Baseball teams can’t outnumber their opponents or score runs while the other team is at home asleep.

Football teams don’t have players stop half way through the fight because they are bored or are going on vacation.

Chess players don’t suddenly get worse because 20% of their brain transferred to another player.

Marathon runners aren’t expected to play a relay race style week long 24/7 race where they hand off their scoring/rating to some random dude who happens to queue up when they get tired.

covenn.7165:

JaredKincade.9761:

The glicko system itself hasn’t changed.

You are right, the glicko system hasn’t changed. Therein lies the exact problem because it is no longer contextually relevant

Be nice Covenn you were both right…

Glicko as implemented was never contextually relevant.

WvW was based on DAoC RvR yet the scoring system here was inherently flawed (and still is) – in RvR there were in-game motivating factors that encouraged the weaker two realms to gang up on the strongest.

Nothing like that exists in WvW and in fact the exact opposite behavior is encouraged by the scoring system. The two strongest Servers have to focus down the weakest as much as possible for Rating before turning on each other if they want to maintain their Rating. Neither SoR nor TC wanted to do that in our matchup and both have bled Rating for it (TC for 2 weeks in a row).

I’m not completely sure how to change the system, but I’d very much like to see changes that 1) have tangible in-game/scoring motivations for the weaker 2 Servers to target the strongest (especially in unbalanced matches) and 2) encourage people to come out and participate in the fights in fun ways regardless of population imbalances.

Great props to SoR NA btw this week – I know a few on my Server posted differently but I personally have great respect for you guys trying to create an environment where everyone could have fun in a very lopsided match.

Thrashbarg.9820:

covenn.7165:

JaredKincade.9761:

The glicko system itself hasn’t changed.

You are right, the glicko system hasn’t changed. Therein lies the exact problem because it is no longer contextually relevant

It never really was contextually relevant. It’s a system for rating the performance of teams and individuals in competitions with static team sizes and limited duration.

Baseball teams can’t outnumber their opponents or score runs while the other team is at home asleep.

Football teams don’t have players stop half way through the fight because they are bored or are going on vacation.

Chess players don’t suddenly get worse because 20% of their brain transferred to another player.

Marathon runners aren’t expected to play a relay race style week long 24/7 race where they hand off their scoring/rating to some random dude who happens to queue up when they get tired.

^— very much this.

your Glicko-2 rating is a measure of how well your server does in a game where the most important factor is coverage. if you want your rating to go up, you have two options: (1) get more coverage, or (2) figure out a way to make your existing coverage score more points during the time they’re on.

a lot of servers are having fun with option 2, trying to see how far it can take them.

-ken

The end result of the current system is that all server ratings will be closer. In general the very high and very low rated servers will move towards the middle no matter what. The random matchups will eventually ensure this. The spread from top to bottom will compress significantly. I’m not sure what the actual intent of this change is since JQ will still have a ton of players and Eredon Terrace will not yet the chances of those two servers meeting in a matchup will generally increase every week.

You say that but UW is currently fighting a server 13 ranks higher, thats insane. Thats Vabbi fighting far shiverpeaks or gandara.

At most you should be fighting maybe… 5 ranks higher at the very most otherwise theres just a huge different between the teams.

DeadlySynz.3471:

Which doesn’t make a lick of difference when your outmatched and outnumbered to the point you can’t even make it out of your own base.

If SoR was outmatching their opponents that much, they’d be gaining rating. Hyperbole, it’s the absolute worst!

pot.6805:

Um this glicko issue has been an issue for at least 6 months now and I’ve been calling it out as kitten for that long. SoR isn’t the first one to deal with losing rating by winning. You didn’t seem to care when it wasn’t effecting you, in fact you made fun of other servers for not “playing glicko correctly”. Learn to play glicko correctly.

You know nothing Jon snow.

And to the other posters standing up for RNG. Let us hope I’m able to tab target you this reset. Shall show you the power of the people beyond the wall!

SoR is losing rating because they can’t handle TC to the “highly skill-oriented” extent that they should. ^^ It’s a server problem, not a system problem. Tiers are also hardly a thing.

Christos de Soufre.3802:

SoR is losing rating because they can’t handle TC. :> It’s a server problem, not a system problem. Tiers are also hardly a thing anymore.

Can any of us really handle TC?….