Guild Wars 2

One of the main reasons why people defended objectives before was the fact that it cost a decent amount of gold to upgrade them. Now with auto-upgrades that incentive has been removed so there has been a noticeable amount less of defense, especially on the BLs.

However, since HoT release more guilds are unlocking wvw tactics which cost a bunch to actually use and are putting them on objectives. These are pretty big investments and will be defended. Attacked a keep owned by [cern] today in T2 that had 3 of the tactics on it. Those tactics might have cost 10g+ maybe and they had people hardcore defending on the bls like the old days with waypoints. The tactic system also requires claiming for a certain amount of time on top of the auto-upgrades, so imo the new tactic system is more like the old upgrade system.

As more guilds unlock tactics I think we’ll see more defending, and as a result more guaranteed fights and action on the BLs. I think there were 10+ guilds with claimed objectives on EBG during reset night tonight.

The number of guilds who have or will ever have the capacity to apply these upgrades is small, at least compared to the number of active defense-oriented guilds we had before.

The new system leaves many defenders and their small guilds outside with their noses pressed against the window. It is not an uplifting experience.

This will not result in a resurgence of defenders in any meaningful capacity.

I have seen many towers claimed by our guilds under the new system. I am yet to see a single one of those guilds come defend it when it is under attack.

Can the tactics be run in multiple structures by the same guild or can they only hold one structure at a time?

This is a large part of the reason so many of our defenders/upgraders had multiple small or solo guilds.

The cost is still too unreasonable. Besides of which as you go lower in tiers there’s more dead times and therefore easier for your claimed structure to flip at any time, so who’s going to spend all that gold on something that probably won’t last past your prime time.

Players will obviously defend what they sunk time and gold into, that’s why upgraded T3 waypointed keeps got defended, something Anet forgot to take into account when they made the new maps and messing with the waypoints.

The material requirements for wvw schematics need to be lowered, by a lot.

If a guild has schematics built, they can slot them into a structure held by another guild. So, while they can only claim one, they can have improvements in however many they want, provided somebody claims them.

msalakka.4653:

The new system leaves many defenders and their small guilds outside with their noses pressed against the window. It is not an uplifting experience.

And those of us who are guildless aren’t even able to reach the window, it seems. I don’t really play enough to warrant joining a hardcore WvW guild, but before I felt like I could still contribute despite being a guildless roamer. I could run dolyaks and supplies, I could help flip camps, etc.

This entire expansion seems to be trying to push people into guilds to do anything. It’s okay for now, but if the trend continues, it could create a very insulated game community, and it could drive away some new players in the future, since they won’t know anyone yet.

Jim Hunter.6821:

Can the tactics be run in multiple structures by the same guild or can they only hold one structure at a time?

This is a large part of the reason so many of our defenders/upgraders had multiple small or solo guilds.

Yes and no.

Tactics and Improvements can be slotted by any guild provided that the claiming guild has held the objective for the required amount of time. Going back to the OP. On reset, CERN claimed the keep on SoS BL and slotted a number of upgrades. Two smaller guilds claimed SW and NW camps and CERN slotted Armored and Speedy Dolyaks in said camps, which resulted in yaks hitting Fire keep at double the usual rate. (And there were Dune Rollers in NW camp, which are awesome).

By changing the focus of the defense to the optional use of tactics and improvements which are, by and in large, significantly more expensive to build than the original old fortifications we still have the defensive priorities for objectives, though the actual reasons are different than they were before. Strictly speaking it becomes more of a guild imperative to protect their investments than it was before.

In fact, there were call-outs and actual defensive actions to protect camps during reset due to trying to keep the Dune rollers. That’s not something we’ve seen in a long time.

Teevell.1684:

. I could run dolyaks and supplies, I could help flip camps, etc.

These things are still vitally important. Flipping an undefended camp that has been upgraded with speedy yaks is now of an amazing amount of importance. Running yaks is now feasible with their protection bubbles. With the dearth of +5 supply, being able to show up and put those last 6 supply on a ram for a commander can be the difference between taking a keep or not.

Every yak counts. Every camp counts. Every supply counts.

Every Roamer counts.

Before HoT, most of these things had a greater level of accessibility. However, due to the amount of people wanting to be special snowflakes, they lobbied for more things that were based around exclusion. Now this wouldn’t have been a bad thing, but this is obviously centered around pve “grinding”, and leaves anything else out of that paradigm that isn’t esports left out in the cold. One of these things is World vs World, and it’s no surprise that HoT hasn’t been kind to it.

Downwood.3192:

Every yak counts. Every camp counts. Every supply counts.

Every Roamer counts.

Until of course around 02:00-03:00 when nothing matter anymore and the smart servers go from ~200 in tick to ~600 tick within the span of an hour and getting a 20-30K or so headstart the next morning.

Dawdler.8521:

Downwood.3192:

Every yak counts. Every camp counts. Every supply counts.

Every Roamer counts.

Until of course around 02:00-03:00 when nothing matter anymore and the smart servers go from ~200 in tick to ~600 tick within the span of an hour and getting a 20-30K or so headstart the next morning.

I don’t understand the players who play on those servers ticking 600+, when there’s literally nothing to do but drop siege, press 1 (or 2 if you use catas/trebs) and collect awful loot at a rate of less than 10% of what a PvE player gets.

Reverence.6915:

Dawdler.8521:

Downwood.3192:

Every yak counts. Every camp counts. Every supply counts.

Every Roamer counts.

Until of course around 02:00-03:00 when nothing matter anymore and the smart servers go from ~200 in tick to ~600 tick within the span of an hour and getting a 20-30K or so headstart the next morning.

I don’t understand the players who play on those servers ticking 600+, when there’s literally nothing to do but drop siege, press 1 (or 2 if you use catas/trebs) and collect awful loot at a rate of less than 10% of what a PvE player gets.

… You have never nightcapped I take it? EU servers is not like the US servers, there is only one timezone. Even if your server is pathetic during the day, matches are won during a couple of hours every night. Pretty easy to understand and something that 99% of WvW players cant affect.

Reverence.6915:

Dawdler.8521:

Downwood.3192:

Every yak counts. Every camp counts. Every supply counts.

Every Roamer counts.

Until of course around 02:00-03:00 when nothing matter anymore and the smart servers go from ~200 in tick to ~600 tick within the span of an hour and getting a 20-30K or so headstart the next morning.

I don’t understand the players who play on those servers ticking 600+, when there’s literally nothing to do but drop siege, press 1 (or 2 if you use catas/trebs) and collect awful loot at a rate of less than 10% of what a PvE player gets.

Im not really sure you are suppose to bring up rewards in a WvW thread. If max rewards was all we were after we wouldnt be in wvw at all.

And we certainly wouldnt be in a thread, about how spending hundreds of gold you can never recover in your game mode. Just to make your game mode about as much fun as it was before the update, is a cool idea.

So, one guild spent all that money to claim something and put something on it. How long did it last until flipped?
How long until enemy realises something has tactics bought on it, and ensure it flips during the huge hours of deadness that exist on most BLs?
How much does it cost to a. get the guild to that level and b. each time you use it, compared to how much you ‘make’ in wvw standing around defending the object.
Unless you can make more from defending than it costs to upgrade in this way, it’s unsustainable longer term.(ie, another gimmick).

Maybe it’s time to rename the game Gate Wars 2, as everything in the new release seems to come with at least one form of gate + money sink.

Notsoperky.2348:

So, one guild spent all that money to claim something and put something on it. How long did it last until flipped?
How long until enemy realises something has tactics bought on it, and ensure it flips during the huge hours of deadness that exist on most BLs?
How much does it cost to a. get the guild to that level and b. each time you use it, compared to how much you ‘make’ in wvw standing around defending the object.
Unless you can make more from defending than it costs to upgrade in this way, it’s unsustainable longer term.(ie, another gimmick).

Maybe it’s time to rename the game Gate Wars 2, as everything in the new release seems to come with at least one form of gate + money sink.

Guild Wars 2 is dead! Long live Guild Shop Wars!

I think they decided that the cost on server transfers wasn’t making them enough money. Or perhaps that when they do go to this guild alliance idea that they needed another source of income.

Notsoperky.2348:

So, one guild spent all that money to claim something and put something on it. How long did it last until flipped?
How long until enemy realises something has tactics bought on it, and ensure it flips during the huge hours of deadness that exist on most BLs?
How much does it cost to a. get the guild to that level and b. each time you use it, compared to how much you ‘make’ in wvw standing around defending the object.
Unless you can make more from defending than it costs to upgrade in this way, it’s unsustainable longer term.(ie, another gimmick).

Honestly? I didn’t keep track of how much. Not for the scribing to 388 where I’ve stopped for now. Not for the guild hall. Not for the siege.

For one, I was too lazy to bother.
For two, I didn’t want to get into arguments over how much I’ve spent. Those become kitten debates that I have no interest in being a part of.

Mostly, we wanted to have fun, so we did what we needed to do to have the fun we wanted to have. We used 3 speedy dolyaks, 2 Dune Cycles, 3 armored yaks, a chilling fog, a hardened gate, and a hardened siege on reset night. How much did it cost? Not sure. A lot of the mats are graciously donated by our guild and I tend to buy flax fibers by the stack to fill in and don’t really keep track.

Why did we do it? Because it was how we wanted to have fun that reset night. And we did. It was a blast. It made the borderlands feel like the did before HoT. It was totally awesome. Great fights, great fun.

I don’t know how long it lasted after we logged. At some point we’ll get back to the place where a fully upgraded/improved keep will get the attention that a waypointed Bay or Hills used to get. We’re not there yet, but lack of coverage never stopped me from upgrading bay, and it won’t stop me from having fun on the new BL’s either.

To be honest the lack of ‘OMG CATS ON WP HILLS’ is kind of nice and relaxing. We can have fun on our own terms. Given that I’ve personally scribed, if not personally funded, 90% or more of the slotted upgrades that TC has so far placed into claimed objectives, I’m in the best position to be disappointed about losing them, and I’m not.

It’s how we’ve decided to have fun, and so far, it’s a blast.

Downwood.3192:

Why did we do it? Because it was how we wanted to have fun that reset night. And we did. It was a blast. It made the borderlands feel like the did before HoT. It was totally awesome. Great fights, great fun.

I don’t think anyone has a problem with fun. But honestly it doesn’t bother you a little? The time and gold put in, by your own quote, to make the borderlands feel like they did before HoT. Not time and effort gold spent to make it better, no. You did all that just to get back to the norm. I still play I still have fun. But in the back of my head it always bothers me when I think about it.

That’s about 25g worth of upgrades. Spread out over a guild, it’s doable for reset night, but in no way sustainable. Still, I wish I was on that BL to experience it~

I think that anyone who is at scribe 388 probably isn’t going to blink in spending 25g, though.

Dawdler.8521:

Reverence.6915:

Dawdler.8521:

Downwood.3192:

Every yak counts. Every camp counts. Every supply counts.

Every Roamer counts.

Until of course around 02:00-03:00 when nothing matter anymore and the smart servers go from ~200 in tick to ~600 tick within the span of an hour and getting a 20-30K or so headstart the next morning.

I don’t understand the players who play on those servers ticking 600+, when there’s literally nothing to do but drop siege, press 1 (or 2 if you use catas/trebs) and collect awful loot at a rate of less than 10% of what a PvE player gets.

… You have never nightcapped I take it? EU servers is not like the US servers, there is only one timezone. Even if your server is pathetic during the day, matches are won during a couple of hours every night. Pretty easy to understand and something that 99% of WvW players cant affect.

In any server outside of NA T1 or T2, I would be considered a nightcapper (or morning crew on EU servers). My point is that those players that do the nightcapping are pathetic and should move to a server where they would have players to fight against.

Wryscher.1432:

I don’t think anyone has a problem with fun. But honestly it doesn’t bother you a little? The time and gold put in, by your own quote, to make the borderlands feel like they did before HoT. Not time and effort gold spent to make it better, no. You did all that just to get back to the norm. I still play I still have fun. But in the back of my head it always bothers me when I think about it.

Doesn’t bother me in the least. Part of the reason it was enjoyable is that we didn’t feel like we were required to do any of it. In fact the fast yaks turned out to be a waste. It took us long enough to get a camp up to the point that we could slot it, that the keep fortified after only two fast yaks. We would still have had all the fun and all the fights even without the stuff we did. But, it added to the fun.

Basically, it came down to personal preference and choice. Before there was a linear set path that everyone took to upgrade keeps. We all knew the path and any variation form that path was met with resistance or ridicule. Now that path is fixed. But, if there is a good group of yak slappers running out there it will now take what is still a good amount of time to upgrade and we don’t have to worry about supply trolls messing things up. So, now we’re back to a situation where the player can have fun by picking and choosing what upgrades and other fun fortifications or such get put into keeps. It’s not mandatory, it’s optional, and it’s fun to have some variety and choice in what we do. I’ve never felt like I had to do any of the upgrades that I dropped into any objective.

And I think that’s why it’s fun. It’s our choice as players what we want to do with the things we’ve earned, unlocked, and built. I don’t have to spend my money if I don’t want to. I don’t have to pay for a waypoint to be built.

The new system gives us back the power to choose where to put our money and our resources. And that, to me, makes it more fun.

@Downwood.3192:

Just a few pessimistic words:
-Maybe they “fixed” the upgrade-trolling, but they still didn’t fix the claim-trolling. If a guild without any/low Aura claims a keep, you can’t overwrite it with your own guild, even if you have “higher” Aura. With +5 tied to Auras, it can be considered trolling.

-Personally I don’t believe that the lack of choice is better, but maybe that’s ‘cos we didn’t have many upgrade-trolls on our server for a long time, so it was not a problem for me… (And back then we could do paper-WP for fun-farming raids, I could start cannon earlier in Hills than in Bay, ‘cos it’s better there, etc.)
But they just reintroduced the same problem as “Lacktivators”. “Soon” there will be a “meta”, “the best possible combination” for the guild-upgrades, and if you are not using it, you still can be considered a troll… Yes, it’s a lot more expensive to do it just for fun, but it’s only a money-wall, nothing else is stopping it.

Downwood.3192:

Notsoperky.2348:

So, one guild spent all that money to claim something and put something on it. How long did it last until flipped?
How long until enemy realises something has tactics bought on it, and ensure it flips during the huge hours of deadness that exist on most BLs?
How much does it cost to a. get the guild to that level and b. each time you use it, compared to how much you ‘make’ in wvw standing around defending the object.
Unless you can make more from defending than it costs to upgrade in this way, it’s unsustainable longer term.(ie, another gimmick).

Honestly? I didn’t keep track of how much. Not for the scribing to 388 where I’ve stopped for now. Not for the guild hall. Not for the siege.

For one, I was too lazy to bother.
For two, I didn’t want to get into arguments over how much I’ve spent. Those become kitten debates that I have no interest in being a part of.

Mostly, we wanted to have fun, so we did what we needed to do to have the fun we wanted to have. We used 3 speedy dolyaks, 2 Dune Cycles, 3 armored yaks, a chilling fog, a hardened gate, and a hardened siege on reset night. How much did it cost? Not sure. A lot of the mats are graciously donated by our guild and I tend to buy flax fibers by the stack to fill in and don’t really keep track.

Why did we do it? Because it was how we wanted to have fun that reset night. And we did. It was a blast. It made the borderlands feel like the did before HoT. It was totally awesome. Great fights, great fun.

I don’t know how long it lasted after we logged. At some point we’ll get back to the place where a fully upgraded/improved keep will get the attention that a waypointed Bay or Hills used to get. We’re not there yet, but lack of coverage never stopped me from upgrading bay, and it won’t stop me from having fun on the new BL’s either.

To be honest the lack of ‘OMG CATS ON WP HILLS’ is kind of nice and relaxing. We can have fun on our own terms. Given that I’ve personally scribed, if not personally funded, 90% or more of the slotted upgrades that TC has so far placed into claimed objectives, I’m in the best position to be disappointed about losing them, and I’m not.

It’s how we’ve decided to have fun, and so far, it’s a blast.

Anet should have you on their Xmas list for spending all the money for gems to convert to gold to be able to get scribe that high and pay for all those upgrades:-) Either that or you spend the majority of your life in pve farming..

I’m not against you doing so (it pays for the game to keep running, after all), but for most wvw players that kind of expense day in day out just to use a few boosts in wvw is very expensive.

You highlight another issue too. If you happen to leave the game then our guild might not have another scribe anywhere near your level and all those guild upgrades become pointless. I’m waiting for the first ‘guild recruiting scribe, must be 350 or above to apply’ or people offering money to import a scribe to their guild.

I’m glad you had fun on reset night. But really you’ve highlighted a lot of the problems with the new system and the huge cost which puts a lot of people off even trying, especially smaller guilds.

Will they address the issue? Whilst people are popping the card in and buying gems, not a hope.

Bubi.5237:

@Downwood.3192:

Just a few pessimistic words:
-Maybe they “fixed” the upgrade-trolling, but they still didn’t fix the claim-trolling. If a guild without any/low Aura claims a keep, you can’t overwrite it with your own guild, even if you have “higher” Aura. With +5 tied to Auras, it can be considered trolling.

-Personally I don’t believe that the lack of choice is better, but maybe that’s ‘cos we didn’t have many upgrade-trolls on our server for a long time, so it was not a problem for me… (And back then we could do paper-WP for fun-farming raids, I could start cannon earlier in Hills than in Bay, ‘cos it’s better there, etc.)
But they just reintroduced the same problem as “Lacktivators”. “Soon” there will be a “meta”, “the best possible combination” for the guild-upgrades, and if you are not using it, you still can be considered a troll… Yes, it’s a lot more expensive to do it just for fun, but it’s only a money-wall, nothing else is stopping it.

Good points!

I believe that the keep claim trolling will be kept to a minimum. While it’s possible, I doubt that any trolls will have the materials capacity or willpower to put forth the immense effort to unlock Keep Claiming for the sole purpose of preventing auras from being placed on the keep. I think that was one of the goals of ‘gold sink’ idea of the entire system. They’ve effectively made it nearly impossible for super small troll guilds to get the ability to do that sort of trolling. Unfortunately, it also means that super small not-trolly guilds are in the same boat.

I don’t know if there will ever be a meta for keep claiming upgrades. Maybe? I can see all of them being useful depending on the situation. Maybe Iron Guards are a little lackluster, but that’s a balance issue. I think until we have guilds that actually have everything unlocked and we’ve been able to start giving all these things a try, we’ll have to reserve judgement. It may be a year from now until there is enough data for balance to even be addressed.

We, unfortunately, were commonly beset upon by upgrade trolls. People would pop 1000 supply upgrades on a keep just as it was being attacked in order to drain the keep and prevent supply use for defense. This was seriously common and a huge issue, especially in tournament seasons. I’m sure we weren’t the only ones.

Dawdler.8521:

Reverence.6915:

Dawdler.8521:

Downwood.3192:

Every yak counts. Every camp counts. Every supply counts.

Every Roamer counts.

Until of course around 02:00-03:00 when nothing matter anymore and the smart servers go from ~200 in tick to ~600 tick within the span of an hour and getting a 20-30K or so headstart the next morning.

I don’t understand the players who play on those servers ticking 600+, when there’s literally nothing to do but drop siege, press 1 (or 2 if you use catas/trebs) and collect awful loot at a rate of less than 10% of what a PvE player gets.

… You have never nightcapped I take it? EU servers is not like the US servers, there is only one timezone. Even if your server is pathetic during the day, matches are won during a couple of hours every night. Pretty easy to understand and something that 99% of WvW players cant affect.

Yeah thats the reason I stopped WvW. Strategies, tactics, upgrades, fights all is irrelevant for the match-outcome, only the size of the nightforce matters.

Notsoperky.2348:

Anet should have you on their Xmas list for spending all the money for gems to convert to gold to be able to get scribe that high and pay for all those upgrades:-) Either that or you spend the majority of your life in pve farming..

I’m not against you doing so (it pays for the game to keep running, after all), but for most wvw players that kind of expense day in day out just to use a few boosts in wvw is very expensive.

You highlight another issue too. If you happen to leave the game then our guild might not have another scribe anywhere near your level and all those guild upgrades become pointless. I’m waiting for the first ‘guild recruiting scribe, must be 350 or above to apply’ or people offering money to import a scribe to their guild.

I’m glad you had fun on reset night. But really you’ve highlighted a lot of the problems with the new system and the huge cost which puts a lot of people off even trying, especially smaller guilds.

Will they address the issue? Whilst people are popping the card in and buying gems, not a hope.

Truth is, I’ve spent zero gems on upgrades for the guild hall or my scribing. I literally have not sold gems for gold in over two years. Every gem I’ve purchased in about the last year has gone to Skins, Item boosters, infinite harvesting tools, Transmutation stones, and Bank tab expansions. I haven’t even purchased black lion keys. While I’ve spent money on gems, they’ve almost all gone to outfit and skin related expenses. (Yes, my asura guardian -needed- the glittering wings backpack, you just don’t understand)

The greater issue that you raise is one of guilds helping to support and level up scribes. When it takes the effort of a huge guild to level a scribe up to 388 and then decide to just hold there because the entire guild can’t afford the last 12 levels to 400 it greatly highlights a few issues.

First: that person is practically married to that guild now. That much effort on the part of the entire guild is phenomenal and to leave the guild, the server, or the game would be unconscionable to me.

Second: The amount of expense at this point in time is wholly ridiculous. I know that as we unlock more options in the guild hall, things will open up more, but the mountain is very steep at this point in time.

Third: It cost 600g of mats to go from Scribe 375 to 388. See points 1 and 2.

So yeah, there may be issues of “scribe for hire” or “350+ only apply” I’m already proving scribe services to two other guilds on our server just so that they can get stuff made. I’ve personally crafted and sold hundreds of fine paper for people doing the Flameseeker precursor quests. I’ve even advertised on LFG: 350+ scribe willing to scribe for mats and tips. I do this not to make money but because I know there are people out there that need the stuff done and can’t afford to level scribing. The tips at this point merely help to offset the cost of getting scribe up to that point to begin with.

To a degree, it’s a bit unfair to people, but it actually brings a crafting discipline to a game that mimics a real life situation where not everyone can do the high end stuff. The fact that the game economy up to this point valued raw materials more than their crafted products was an issue. The time and effort required to refine a material actually devalued it, due to the fact that for every crafting discipline prior there was practically zero time or effort actually required. With scribing, this is no longer the case.

Locking basic mechanics behind costly guild mechanics is behind stupid.

People have been complaining about maps, but we haven’t been able to even use use the maps the way they were intended to be played because anet decided to make WvW upgrades so expensive.

Downwood.3192:

Doesn’t bother me in the least. Part of the reason it was enjoyable is that we didn’t feel like we were required to do any of it. In fact the fast yaks turned out to be a waste. It took us long enough to get a camp up to the point that we could slot it, that the keep fortified after only two fast yaks. We would still have had all the fun and all the fights even without the stuff we did. But, it added to the fun.

Don’t forget the +3 points per successful yak journey. Fast Yaks takes the PPT contribution of North Camp from ~50 per tick to ~100 per tick, assuming you own Rampart and the two northern towers. It really should be the most sought after objective on the map.

Sviel.7493:

Don’t forget the +3 points per successful yak journey. Fast Yaks takes the PPT contribution of North Camp from ~50 per tick to ~100 per tick, assuming you own Rampart and the two northern towers. It really should be the most sought after objective on the map.

It really should be. Given when I first got fast yaks, that is where I put them, I was astounded at how fast they went. 1:10 to rampart east, 1:20 to rampart west. It’s amazing.

CERN is one of the largest if not the largest guilds on TC. He also has a second guild that is more pve oriented. Both guilds prior to HOT release were maxxed and had tons of scribe components squirrel ed away.

For most guilds, having those perks available will never happen. The time sink and gold sink are prohibitive in allowing anyone but the largest guilds to achieve.

Personally I stopped playing. The only game mode I enjoyed was wvw. Now with factions I just do not like the direction of the game. I just reopened account on wow which I never thought I would do and upgraded to newest expansion just to have something to do until the next mmo craze is released.

I don’t see spending more money on a game when the game mode I enjoy has been ruined.