Guild Wars 2

I have not played the new WvW map yet, I am farming heroes points first in EOTM and the new PvE maps (I truly hate Verdant Brink and all those glide and jump and fall like kitten stuff, but I gave it a try…), I just entered the new borderland twice to take a look and yes I had the feeling the map was just too large.

So I see a lot of people asking to bring alpine borderland back, but what if we could have all maps, desert, alpine and ebg at the same time? I really do not think we need 4 wvw maps, we do not need a specific borderland for each server we could just have the 3 different maps with no citadel at all, just spawn camps for each server like in EBG or EOTM… if we think we need 4 maps bring a version of EOTM to the regular WvW with ppt and keep the current one for the queues and farm zergs.

Well… just an idea.

Yup, been saying this for a year now.

The HOM BL system just encourages 3 identical maps, forces each map to have the very same play style, instead of branching out to make different maps for different people.

* EBG
* Alpine
* Desert
* <Optional>

People can go to what map they like, that fits how they want to play. Instead of right now where the few people left in WvW (that isn’t on PvE/Ween vacation) avoids the new BL because it’s new and they’re not used to it, or doesn’t like it (for whatever reason).

We already suffer from having too many maps for many match-up’s, and most of Bronze (At least for NA, probably EU as well, but I can’t answer that) just doesn’t have the population to fill this many maps.

Which is why I’ve been encouraging ANet to move over to a dynamic system for adjusting amount of maps.

And all this leads easily into a system where they in the future could focus on making more specific maps for play styles that currently feels left out. We already have *4* maps now with the same general principle of big groups beating on each others for keeps. Next I want some dedicated roamer maps, some huge arenas for large group fights etc.

joneirikb.7506:

Yup, been saying this for a year now.

The HOM BL system just encourages 3 identical maps, forces each map to have the very same play style, instead of branching out to make different maps for different people.

• EBG
• Alpine
• Desert
• <Optional>

People can go to what map they like, that fits how they want to play. Instead of right now where the few people left in WvW (that isn’t on PvE/Ween vacation) avoids the new BL because it’s new and they’re not used to it, or doesn’t like it (for whatever reason).

We already suffer from having too many maps for many match-up’s, and most of Bronze (At least for NA, probably EU as well, but I can’t answer that) just doesn’t have the population to fill this many maps.

Which is why I’ve been encouraging ANet to move over to a dynamic system for adjusting amount of maps.

And all this leads easily into a system where they in the future could focus on making more specific maps for play styles that currently feels left out. We already have 4 maps now with the same general principle of big groups beating on each others for keeps. Next I want some dedicated roamer maps, some huge arenas for large group fights etc.

They would have to redesign the maps so one side didn’t get a huge advantage and that would likely take them another 3 years to accomplish.

We need a quick fix for the new bl problem. The best solution is to return the alpine map for the bl’s and put the new map on a weekly rotation with EB.

I think if they simply downsized the scale of the new desert borderlands (and made it possible for us to use gliders in the WvW maps) they wouldn’t be so bad. The maps are crazy vertical so it’s easy to fall and die, and they’re massive so it takes forever to run anywhere.

Your ideas are pretty interesting, but it’d change the aspect of WvW completely. We have home borderlands so that each server has the “need” or reason to defend their map. I think if they mixed the borderlands up, they’d have to still keep it so that there are home borderlands.

@Puck

You really don’t want to "mess with" EBG, it is the most popular map, and if you removed it, even temporary it would probably create even larger backlash than what we got now. At the moment, many people consider it the last bastion of WvW etc. (This comes from me, that doesn’t bother going into EBG unless the other guildies force me)

I don’t think that it requires that much work to adapt a BL map to be fairly neutral. For the old Alpine one, the only thing you really needed was to adjust so all servers had access to a "Citadel" of their own with all the Services/Resources. And let red have the north position (Handicap advantage for red, they usually need it). I even expect that Bloodlust would be more interesting if it was a single map/bloodlust.

I’m not experienced enough with the new map yet, so can’t really say how that would work. But for the size, I think it would do much better as a singular map than 3x copies.

joneirikb.7506:

You really don’t want to “mess with” EBG, it is the most popular map, and if you removed it, even temporary it would probably create even larger backlash than what we got now. At the moment, many people consider it the last bastion of WvW etc. (This comes from me, that doesn’t bother going into EBG unless the other guildies force me)

I don’t think that it requires that much work to adapt a BL map to be fairly neutral. For the old Alpine one, the only thing you really needed was to adjust so all servers had access to a “Citadel” of their own with all the resources. And let red have the north position (Handicap advantage for red, they usually need it). I even expect that Bloodlust would be more interesting if it was a single map/bloodlust.

I’m not experienced enough with the new map yet, so can’t really say how that would work. But for the size, I think it would do much better as a singular map than 3x copies.

I think as long as EB was immediately put in rotation (not, it might come back some day in some form) and they toned down the ridiculous PvE gimmicks on the new map, people wouldn’t be nearly as upset as they are now.

I don’t even think the scale is that bad for being the main zergy map. Auto upgrades and the dino skyhammer would still have to be addressed though. They give way too much of an advantage to the dominant server.

Wouldnt it be simpler to just put the new desert map and the alpine map on a weekly rotation and leave EB alone? Desert has no central objective to fight around and imo wouldnt be a good replacement for EB.

Either way Id like to see the old map make a comback at some point, not because i dont like the new (I do) but just because I dont like to see old content I enjoyed disappear.

seele der leben.7280:

I think if they simply downsized the scale of the new desert borderlands (and made it possible for us to use gliders in the WvW maps) they wouldn’t be so bad. The maps are crazy vertical so it’s easy to fall and die, and they’re massive so it takes forever to run anywhere.

Your ideas are pretty interesting, but it’d change the aspect of WvW completely. We have home borderlands so that each server has the “need” or reason to defend their map. I think if they mixed the borderlands up, they’d have to still keep it so that there are home borderlands.

Commenting on the design of defending a home map:

I don’t see why that has to be a complete map, why not part of a map ? Just look at EBG where we already have “color corners” that people try to keep and defend. This creates a much more dynamic style, as things change back and forth, people attack at the edges or tries to sneak past and take a camp etc.

The current system, we have an entire map, that is for large periods un-touched by the attackers. That makes people sit around and defend, basically upgrading, running around for nodes etc, but very little active WvW. Some like this, others gets bored.

But you could just as well do that on a map setup like EBG, and probably see some more action. If everyone is interested in protecting “their home corner” instead of “their home map”, you create less barriers between the defense and offense actions in the game.

To go a bit against the grain, you could also do this a bit different and have a single HOME map for all servers, and they have to fight over objectives to unlock extra services. Thins a Keep for Trade Post, another for Mystic Forge, a tower for crafting armors, another for crafting weapons etc. Would probably never fly with ANet, but could be an interesting concept to see different types of rewards.

zombyturtle.5980:

Wouldnt it be simpler to just put the new desert map and the alpine map on a weekly rotation and leave EB alone? Desert has no central objective to fight around and imo wouldnt be a good replacement for EB.

The map is too big to have 3 copies of it, only having 1 is manageable. They could put a new SM in the center of the map, just a straight copy for now and redesign it later if they feel like it. The skyhammer crap has to go anyway.

@Puck

I really think that Desert + 3x Alpine would make a lot of players just rage quit until EBG rotated back. I could be wrong, but there seems to be lots of players that only likes EBG, even before removal of Alpine.

Not enough experience with either SkyDino or AutoUppgrade yet to make a good statement. The feeling I’ve gotten so far is that I’m slightly positive to the AutoUpgrade, and slightly negative to the SkyDino.

@zombyturtle

That would be simpler, and was what they hinted at earlier in the development of HoT, that they would rotate the BL’s. And I agree that Desert lack a good middle objective.

I’d love to see alpine come back as well, but as I’ve noted a couple of times now I’d like to see it as a single map, and not 3x identical maps.

@Puck (again)

Agreed on the size and number of copies. Putting an objective in the middle of the Desert map would solve most of the issues, but EBG still has 2 more towers (6 total) to make all sides equal. And it would still not be popular with the EBG crowd.

Still think putting all 3 maps in would be better, everyone would get a map they liked.

joneirikb.7506:

@Puck

I really think that Desert + 3x Alpine would make a lot of players just rage quit until EBG rotated back. I could be wrong, but there seems to be lots of players that only likes EBG, even before removal of Alpine.

Not enough experience with either SkyDino or AutoUppgrade yet to make a good statement. The feeling I’ve gotten so far is that I’m slightly positive to the AutoUpgrade, and slightly negative to the SkyDino.

@zombyturtle

That would be simpler, and was what they hinted at earlier in the development of HoT, that they would rotate the BL’s. And I agree that Desert lack a good middle objective.

I’d love to see alpine come back as well, but as I’ve noted a couple of times now I’d like to see it as a single map, and not 3x identical maps.

@Puck (again)

Agreed on the size and number of copies. Putting an objective in the middle of the Desert map would solve most of the issues, but EBG still has 2 more towers (6 total) to make all sides equal. And it would still not be popular with the EBG crowd.

Still think putting all 3 maps in would be better, everyone would get a map they liked.

I don’t disagree with you. I’m just proposing a solution that I think they would be more likely to consider. WvW has never been high on their list of concerns. It’s a lot more likely they would be willing to do minimal redesign work on 1 map than to redesign multiple maps and the whole 4 map set up.

joneirikb.7506:

seele der leben.7280:

I think if they simply downsized the scale of the new desert borderlands (and made it possible for us to use gliders in the WvW maps) they wouldn’t be so bad. The maps are crazy vertical so it’s easy to fall and die, and they’re massive so it takes forever to run anywhere.

Your ideas are pretty interesting, but it’d change the aspect of WvW completely. We have home borderlands so that each server has the “need” or reason to defend their map. I think if they mixed the borderlands up, they’d have to still keep it so that there are home borderlands.

Commenting on the design of defending a home map:

I don’t see why that has to be a complete map, why not part of a map ? Just look at EBG where we already have “color corners” that people try to keep and defend. This creates a much more dynamic style, as things change back and forth, people attack at the edges or tries to sneak past and take a camp etc.

The current system, we have an entire map, that is for large periods un-touched by the attackers. That makes people sit around and defend, basically upgrading, running around for nodes etc, but very little active WvW. Some like this, others gets bored.

But you could just as well do that on a map setup like EBG, and probably see some more action. If everyone is interested in protecting “their home corner” instead of “their home map”, you create less barriers between the defense and offense actions in the game.

To go a bit against the grain, you could also do this a bit different and have a single HOME map for all servers, and they have to fight over objectives to unlock extra services. Thins a Keep for Trade Post, another for Mystic Forge, a tower for crafting armors, another for crafting weapons etc. Would probably never fly with ANet, but could be an interesting concept to see different types of rewards.

You have a point, but I think that would take away from EB being the central map that each server rests on. On EB, SMC is the “center” of attention, and it shouldn’t directly be owned by any specific server. But on home borderlands, “Garri” was the most important point, and there was always something special about taking a Garrison from the home borderland…which is still how it is right now with the Desert Borderlands.

I think the thing that has made most of the WvW community upset is that there was SO MUCH change implemented with the new Desert Borderlands. Not only have the maps completely changed, but the way the maps worked have changed as well….but not as much as it would have been had they gotten rid of the “home borderlands” aspect. It could work, but we have to give Anet an easier fix to the problem.