Guild Wars 2

WvW is fantastic from a high level design standpoint suffering from a major flaw. The WvW NPCs are terrible. They are so terrible, that 1 player can take over a supply camp, and 5 can easily take a Keep.

This is a major play problem for many reasons, but the main being that their is just way too much ebb and flow to the point that it never feels like your accomplishing anything. There are too many roaming parties that avoid PvP to hit the NPC only defended Keep for the rewards only for it to be lost 5 minutes later, rinse and repeat.

The challenge is that to expect players to stand around waiting to defend against an attacking enemy is not a realistic expectation. When people spend time to game, they want to do something fun, which encompasses fighting, which means you need to go search for the fight (attack). Therefore I’m really hoping that ANet implements a new system for the xpack; a WvW fortify/expand goal for the players. Have high reward based area events setup with the goal of fortifying Keeps with more NPCs, cannons, champions, and so forth. Make it so that it takes at least 15 players to take a Keep, and 5 to take a supply camp. Having a bit more “stability” on the front lines and requiring a bit more organization to advance I think will go a long way to making WvW a more fun, satisfying experience.

A. No need to make solo roaming less viable.

B. No need for more PvE in WvW.

In my opinion, if you want a location held, guard it yourself. It is a realistic expectation. If you ask me, if your not willing to put in the effort to defend it, you do not have a right to complain if you lose it.

coglin.1867:

A. No need to make solo roaming less viable.

B. No need for more PvE in WvW.

In my opinion, if you want a location held, guard it yourself. It is a realistic expectation. If you ask me, if your not willing to put in the effort to defend it, you do not have a right to complain if you lose it.

I agree – no need to PPT in WvW – EotM already has enough of that.

coglin.1867:

A. No need to make solo roaming less viable.

B. No need for more PvE in WvW.

In my opinion, if you want a location held, guard it yourself. It is a realistic expectation. If you ask me, if your not willing to put in the effort to defend it, you do not have a right to complain if you lose it.

Its absolutely not a realistic expectation. If it was a realistic expectation, people would already be doing it. However as you know, nobody does. Which creates the disorganized “ebb and flow” issue that needs to be addressed.

I’m not saying that there should be no activities for a loaner or small group in WvW. Heck they could do the “fortifying” events that I mentioned, hit supply caravans, and so on. Remember I said to make them high rewards based so they’re not left out. What I’m saying is that five players definitely should not be able to take keeps.

PolishTank.3156:

Its absolutely not a realistic expectation. If it was a realistic expectation, people would already be doing it. However as you know, nobody does. Which creates the disorganized “ebb and flow” issue that needs to be addressed.

I’m not saying that there should be no activities for a loaner or small group in WvW. Heck they could do the “fortifying” events that I mentioned, hit supply caravans, and so on. Remember I said to make them high rewards based so they’re not left out. What I’m saying is that five players definitely should not be able to take keeps.

Solo players and small groups defend supply camps all the time. WvW is supposed to be a PvP environment: the NPCs are there to be an objective and a tool to use, not dungeon bosses. Of course I can take a keep solo with an alpha golem and a lot of time, but the objective is for you to try and stop me. Nobody likes fighting AI in WvW. We like fighting other players.

Solo players and small groups defend supply camps all the time. WvW is supposed to be a PvP environment: the NPCs are there to be an objective and a tool to use, not dungeon bosses. Of course I can take a keep solo with an alpha golem and a lot of time, but the objective is for you to try and stop me. Nobody likes fighting AI in WvW. We like fighting other players.

That’s just not true. Every roaming group I’ve ever joined specifically goes after undefended camps/Keeps all the time for the rewards. The design is setup to reward this play so that’s what everyone does. Nobody actually seeks out PvP. Why would you when you can just take a keep with a few people and get a ton of stuff. Roamers flat out just fight AI 95% of the time.

PolishTank.3156:

What I’m saying is that five players definitely should not be able to take keeps.

If it makes you feel any better. I took Stonemist with a group of 7 before.

You can solo Stonemist with a thief….

PolishTank.3156:

Solo players and small groups defend supply camps all the time. WvW is supposed to be a PvP environment: the NPCs are there to be an objective and a tool to use, not dungeon bosses. Of course I can take a keep solo with an alpha golem and a lot of time, but the objective is for you to try and stop me. Nobody likes fighting AI in WvW. We like fighting other players.

That’s just not true. Every roaming group I’ve ever joined specifically goes after undefended camps/Keeps all the time for the rewards. The design is setup to reward this play so that’s what everyone does. Nobody actually seeks out PvP. Why would you when you can just take a keep with a few people and get a ton of stuff. Roamers flat out just fight AI 95% of the time.

Maybe the people you run with do that but the people I run with could care less about capping empty structures for WvWvW’s crappy bags. We look for players to fight which may result in a few camps and a rare paper tower flipping but in the end we want to use our weapon skills against people using theirs. And I know a few groups that do the same.

gennyt.3428:

Maybe the people you run with do that but the people I run with could care less about capping empty structures for WvWvW’s crappy bags. We look for players to fight which may result in a few camps and a rare paper tower flipping but in the end we want to use our weapon skills against people using theirs. And I know a few groups that do the same.

Ok fine so what’s the problem with my original suggestion? Why not encourage players to do more of what you do? I mean Tspatula just said you can solo StoneMist with a thief. Bristingr said he took it with 7 people. Am I the only person who sees something wrong with this?

If there are “fortification” events after a Keep/Supply camp take; that leaves a better shot that players will be around the Keep for the eventual counter attack. What I’m suggesting encourages more PVP.

What you’re suggesting will only worsen already-unbalanced matchups. If it’s a battle over a fortified keep with hordes of npc guards, the attacking side will need far greater numbers than the defenders to successfully take any location. Furthermore, since all keeps will require “at least” fifteen people to take, servers that simply can’t muster sizable groups will be reduced to capping camps and hoping they drop down a few tiers (assuming they aren’t already dead last) while their larger opponents sit on the walls and watch them wipe to npcs. ArenaNet already added siege disablers to let individual players or smaller groups stall zergs while they call for reinforcements – there’s no need to give the objectives more passive defense.

PolishTank.3156:

gennyt.3428:

Maybe the people you run with do that but the people I run with could care less about capping empty structures for WvWvW’s crappy bags. We look for players to fight which may result in a few camps and a rare paper tower flipping but in the end we want to use our weapon skills against people using theirs. And I know a few groups that do the same.

Ok fine so what’s the problem with my original suggestion? Why not encourage players to do more of what you do? I mean Tspatula just said you can solo StoneMist with a thief. Bristingr said he took it with 7 people. Am I the only person who sees something wrong with this?

If there are “fortification” events after a Keep/Supply camp take; that leaves a better shot that players will be around the Keep for the eventual counter attack. What I’m suggesting encourages more PVP.

Understand that what players on a given WvWvW map can be looking for different things out of their time there. What you’re asking for – more NPCs, more cannons etc – would turn off players like me who have little interest in siege warefare. Personally I think the accessability of these weapons and the maps sizes make sharing these spaces with the command and conquer types hard enough already.

Do you know why a Thief can solo a keep? Hiding and having lots of time because there are zero defenders. The problem with defending isn’t that the NPCs are weak and stupid, they are supplementary and not meant to thwart attacks, that’s a job for players. The problem is that of participation and GW2 favoring offense in pretty much all aspects of the game.

gennyt.3428:

Understand that what players on a given WvWvW map can be looking for different things out of their time there. What you’re asking for – more NPCs, more cannons etc – would turn off players like me who have little interest in siege warefare. Personally I think the accessability of these weapons and the maps sizes make sharing these spaces with the command and conquer types hard enough already.

Do you know why a Thief can solo a keep? Hiding and having lots of time because there are zero defenders. The problem with defending isn’t that the NPCs are weak and stupid, they are supplementary and not meant to thwart attacks, that’s a job for players. The problem is that of participation and GW2 favoring offense in pretty much all aspects of the game.

I understand your concern but I didn’t quite say “siege warfare.” I said 15 players to take a Keep, which is just about a typical Roaming size anyway. Whatever the best balance is a Keep needs to be able to hold off 5 players for more than 5 minutes.

Like I said before to expect people to stand around “defending” is never going to happen. Its not realistic to expect players to stand around doing nothing waiting for an attack. NPCs should have more capability to at least hold Keeps for a little while and give players a chance to reinforce.

PolishTank.3156:

I understand your concern

Apparently not. Because you continue to blatantly ignore them, is order to demand your personal desires to be filled.

Scouting is a role. Solo roaming is a role. Players enjoy both of them. Your idea destroys both of them.

PolishTank.3156:

I said 15 players to take a Keep, which is just about a typical Roaming size anyway.

For some servers, that is the entire map after 11PM.

PolishTank.3156:

Whatever the best balance is a Keep needs to be able to hold off 5 players for more than 5 minutes.

That balance is a scout, sieging the keep. Using siege after he calls out to the commander that the keeps is under siege. Use the door treb, arrow cart, siege disablers, until reinforcements arrive.

I can train a monkey to hold off 25 while solo with nothing but a few siege disablers and some supply in the keep.

PolishTank.3156:

Like I said before to expect people to stand around “defending” is never going to happen.

And we are telling you it is a provable fact that you are wrong. I can link you hours of video of solo location scouts sieging up a location.

As stated before, it is a very very well known game mode role called “scouting”.

You can assure us the earth is flat all you like, er, um, I mean……..that no one will scout and defend something, but just because you keep saying it, will not make it true.

coglin.1867:

PolishTank.3156:

I understand your concern

Apparently not. Because you continue to blatantly ignore them, is order to demand your personal desires to be filled.

Scouting is a role. Solo roaming is a role. Players enjoy both of them. Your idea destroys both of them.

PolishTank.3156:

I said 15 players to take a Keep, which is just about a typical Roaming size anyway.

For some servers, that is the entire map after 11PM.

PolishTank.3156:

Whatever the best balance is a Keep needs to be able to hold off 5 players for more than 5 minutes.

That balance is a scout, sieging the keep. Using siege after he calls out to the commander that the keeps is under siege. Use the door treb, arrow cart, siege disablers, until reinforcements arrive.

I can train a monkey to hold off 10 while solo with nothing but a few siege disablers and some supply in the keep.

I’m not ignoring anything. I’m disagreeing.

I look at a “solo scout” to be a scout. A “solo roamer” should able to take out caravans, but that’s just about it. Needing a small group to take a camps is not that hard, and there is a PvE section to the game if you don’t want to group up. Its WvW, not Super Hero vs World. That’s great you can train a monkey with siege disablers. Unfortunately you can’t train them to sit on their thumbs waiting for the attack.

I know there’s scouting, and if you and your mates are that organized good for you. However, watchtowers/Keeps in practice are mostly empty as players are out attacking.

Then stop worrying about PPT and go find a fight.

If you want to take things with 15 people, then go take hills, bay, garry, or one of the other keeps.

By the way, it is not disagreeing when you state something never happens, when there are miles of videos on youtube proving you wrong. That is making a provably false statement, not disagreeing.

Don’t some NPCs in EotM man ACs and repair walls? I wouldn’t care if they added that to classic WvWvW maps because at least they don’t bother with players unless they’re actually close to the structure. And the sentry turrets could be another addition to help out defenders because the current upgrade process is pretty poor. I’ve done the upgrade/scout bit when I first started only to lose it because I left for 5 mins to get a snack, I quickly realized it was just stupid and stopped.

I honestly don’t know any GW2 player who considers a group of 15 a roaming group since that’s enough for a raid comp or a GvG team. Roaming as I’ve come to know it is usually associated with small fights so they are usually solo or with maybe a party’s worth of people. Where are these 15 man groups anyway? I want a bite.

EotM champs take some skill.

PolishTank.3156:

gennyt.3428:

Understand that what players on a given WvWvW map can be looking for different things out of their time there. What you’re asking for – more NPCs, more cannons etc – would turn off players like me who have little interest in siege warefare. Personally I think the accessability of these weapons and the maps sizes make sharing these spaces with the command and conquer types hard enough already.

Do you know why a Thief can solo a keep? Hiding and having lots of time because there are zero defenders. The problem with defending isn’t that the NPCs are weak and stupid, they are supplementary and not meant to thwart attacks, that’s a job for players. The problem is that of participation and GW2 favoring offense in pretty much all aspects of the game.

I understand your concern but I didn’t quite say “siege warfare.” I said 15 players to take a Keep, which is just about a typical Roaming size anyway. Whatever the best balance is a Keep needs to be able to hold off 5 players for more than 5 minutes.

Like I said before to expect people to stand around “defending” is never going to happen. Its not realistic to expect players to stand around doing nothing waiting for an attack. NPCs should have more capability to at least hold Keeps for a little while and give players a chance to reinforce.

15 a typical roaming group size???? That’s a typical guild raid size on many servers

Zetsumei.4975:

PolishTank.3156:

gennyt.3428:

Understand that what players on a given WvWvW map can be looking for different things out of their time there. What you’re asking for – more NPCs, more cannons etc – would turn off players like me who have little interest in siege warefare. Personally I think the accessability of these weapons and the maps sizes make sharing these spaces with the command and conquer types hard enough already.

Do you know why a Thief can solo a keep? Hiding and having lots of time because there are zero defenders. The problem with defending isn’t that the NPCs are weak and stupid, they are supplementary and not meant to thwart attacks, that’s a job for players. The problem is that of participation and GW2 favoring offense in pretty much all aspects of the game.

I understand your concern but I didn’t quite say “siege warfare.” I said 15 players to take a Keep, which is just about a typical Roaming size anyway. Whatever the best balance is a Keep needs to be able to hold off 5 players for more than 5 minutes.

Like I said before to expect people to stand around “defending” is never going to happen. Its not realistic to expect players to stand around doing nothing waiting for an attack. NPCs should have more capability to at least hold Keeps for a little while and give players a chance to reinforce.

15 a typical roaming group size???? That’s a typical guild raid size on many servers

I always thought 10-15 was Roam and 20+ was Zerg. And I’m only really talking about Keeps. Small parties for Watch towers/supply camps. Scouts for caravans.

coglin.1867:

Then stop worrying about PPT and go find a fight.

If you want to take things with 15 people, then go take hills, bay, garry, or one of the other keeps.

By the way, it is not disagreeing when you state something never happens, when there are miles of videos on youtube proving you wrong. That is making a provably false statement, not disagreeing.

When roaming what you attack is mostly devoid of players unless there are other players in the vicinity by coincidence. Counter attacks are obviously organized quickly, but there are very little players that dedicate their time waiting at a Tower or Keep for an attack. Just because there are YouTube videos with a bunch of exceptions doesn’t change the typical way WvW plays out.

PolishTank.3156:

Zetsumei.4975:

PolishTank.3156:

gennyt.3428:

Understand that what players on a given WvWvW map can be looking for different things out of their time there. What you’re asking for – more NPCs, more cannons etc – would turn off players like me who have little interest in siege warefare. Personally I think the accessability of these weapons and the maps sizes make sharing these spaces with the command and conquer types hard enough already.

Do you know why a Thief can solo a keep? Hiding and having lots of time because there are zero defenders. The problem with defending isn’t that the NPCs are weak and stupid, they are supplementary and not meant to thwart attacks, that’s a job for players. The problem is that of participation and GW2 favoring offense in pretty much all aspects of the game.

I understand your concern but I didn’t quite say “siege warfare.” I said 15 players to take a Keep, which is just about a typical Roaming size anyway. Whatever the best balance is a Keep needs to be able to hold off 5 players for more than 5 minutes.

Like I said before to expect people to stand around “defending” is never going to happen. Its not realistic to expect players to stand around doing nothing waiting for an attack. NPCs should have more capability to at least hold Keeps for a little while and give players a chance to reinforce.

15 a typical roaming group size???? That’s a typical guild raid size on many servers

I always thought 10-15 was Roam and 20+ was Zerg. And I’m only really talking about Keeps. Small parties for Watch towers/supply camps. Scouts for caravans.

3-5 is roaming group. I don’t know much at all about havoc groups but I think that’s 10. 15-20 (25 if you’re in gold) is guild raid size. Above that I’d say is a zerg, 50ish+ is a blob n then you get into what you call a map blob. And yes solo roamers exist and no we can’t be limited to dollys alone to find the fights we want.

PolishTank.3156:

coglin.1867:

Then stop worrying about PPT and go find a fight.

If you want to take things with 15 people, then go take hills, bay, garry, or one of the other keeps.

By the way, it is not disagreeing when you state something never happens, when there are miles of videos on youtube proving you wrong. That is making a provably false statement, not disagreeing.

When roaming what you attack is mostly devoid of players unless there are other players in the vicinity by coincidence. Counter attacks are obviously organized quickly, but there are very little players that dedicate their time waiting at a Tower or Keep for an attack. Just because there are YouTube videos with a bunch of exceptions doesn’t change the typical way WvW plays out.

Incorrect. One of a roamers jobs is to target individual players running back to the zerg/group. As well as to catch scouts who are sieging a tower and running supply and kill them.

You are also incorrect in claiming there are so few players who scout keeps. On my server we generally always have 2 scouts in garri, one in each of the northern towers, and at leasy one in bay and hills if we have them. We have a large pool of willing parties who rotate in and out. That is just the home BL. We will have 4 to 5 on keeps in each of the other BLs and 4 to 5 on EB. generally we have no less then 20 in WvW as a whole at any given time.

PolishTank.3156:

Its WvW, not Super Hero vs World.

Actually for me WvW is exactly that. Often I run around the map preventing objectives from upgrading by killing dollies and taking camps and ambushing dolly escorts. I like to split up with some other guys, so we work together in a way of soloing in our areas and teaming up, when needed. It more often than not requires me to 1vX and to fight players in their camp. Sometimes I win, sometimes not, but this is the path I chose and the play style I enjoy very much. Especially the cat and mouse play, when I lie in waiting around a supply camp and several opponents waiting in the camp, trying to save dollies as I attack them, when they move out. It often results in 5+ players gathering in camp before they push out to get me (and often they don’t, so the play starts anew^^).

This is a task not always recognized, but keeping objectives downgraded during the early evening helps for the zergs later to take stuff quickly. So yes: for me WvW is: Super Hero vs World :P

I agree that sentries are a waste of coding, for they don’t really do anything unless one is stupid enough to announce your presence by killing them. (sometimes you can throw the enemy off though, by killing a sentry and then going the other way^^). But camps don’t need more PvE. Players should take care of dollies and camps. If at all camps need less PvE. Maybe fortify them with walls that can be killed by weapons and installing an asura style warning system (as upgrade) would be something I could imagine being handy.

But upgrading NPCs to punish roaming is the wrong direction.

PolishTank.3156:

WvW is fantastic from a high level design standpoint suffering from a major flaw. The WvW NPCs are terrible. They are so terrible, that 1 player can take over a supply camp, and 5 can easily take a Keep.

This is a major play problem for many reasons, but the main being that their is just way too much ebb and flow to the point that it never feels like your accomplishing anything. There are too many roaming parties that avoid PvP to hit the NPC only defended Keep for the rewards only for it to be lost 5 minutes later, rinse and repeat.

The challenge is that to expect players to stand around waiting to defend against an attacking enemy is not a realistic expectation. When people spend time to game, they want to do something fun, which encompasses fighting, which means you need to go search for the fight (attack). Therefore I’m really hoping that ANet implements a new system for the xpack; a WvW fortify/expand goal for the players. Have high reward based area events setup with the goal of fortifying Keeps with more NPCs, cannons, champions, and so forth. Make it so that it takes at least 15 players to take a Keep, and 5 to take a supply camp. Having a bit more “stability” on the front lines and requiring a bit more organization to advance I think will go a long way to making WvW a more fun, satisfying experience.

EoTM is in the crappy state it’s in BECAUSE of all this PvE/NPC stuff that is in it.

coglin.1867:

Incorrect. One of a roamers jobs is to target individual players running back to the zerg/group. As well as to catch scouts who are sieging a tower and running supply and kill them.

You are also incorrect in claiming there are so few players who scout keeps. On my server we generally always have 2 scouts in garri, one in each of the northern towers, and at leasy one in bay and hills if we have them. We have a large pool of willing parties who rotate in and out. That is just the home BL. We will have 4 to 5 on keeps in each of the other BLs and 4 to 5 on EB. generally we have no less then 20 in WvW as a whole at any given time.

Whether or not you have a couple scouts at a Keep, a group of ten will take that keep in 5-10 minutes. After that group moves on, you will counter and get it back 5-10 minutes later. Because lack of defenders. Make it take just a little more effort. Have some cool group activities to upgrade. Have some cool small group/roam activities against supply camps to stall those upgrades. Bottom line is the Keeps should require a bit more effort and organization to take.

TyPin.9860:

Actually for me WvW is exactly that. Often I run around the map preventing objectives from upgrading by killing dollies and taking camps and ambushing dolly escorts. I like to split up with some other guys, so we work together in a way of soloing in our areas and teaming up, when needed. It more often than not requires me to 1vX and to fight players in their camp. Sometimes I win, sometimes not, but this is the path I chose and the play style I enjoy very much. Especially the cat and mouse play, when I lie in waiting around a supply camp and several opponents waiting in the camp, trying to save dollies as I attack them, when they move out. It often results in 5+ players gathering in camp before they push out to get me (and often they don’t, so the play starts anew^^).

Disruption is fine however for one guy to fly around someone’s Borderlands and run back and forth taking multiple supply camps at only a couple minutes needed rate for each is a bit too easy. 2-4 people to take a supply camp I think is better balanced.

Tyreal.5230:

EoTM is in the crappy state it’s in BECAUSE of all this PvE/NPC stuff that is in it.

If anything they are inconsequential. Besides something for players to steamroll I’m not following how they ruin EoTM.

PolishTank.3156:

coglin.1867:

Incorrect. One of a roamers jobs is to target individual players running back to the zerg/group. As well as to catch scouts who are sieging a tower and running supply and kill them.

You are also incorrect in claiming there are so few players who scout keeps. On my server we generally always have 2 scouts in garri, one in each of the northern towers, and at leasy one in bay and hills if we have them. We have a large pool of willing parties who rotate in and out. That is just the home BL. We will have 4 to 5 on keeps in each of the other BLs and 4 to 5 on EB. generally we have no less then 20 in WvW as a whole at any given time.

Whether or not you have a couple scouts at a Keep, a group of ten will take that keep in 5-10 minutes. After that group moves on, you will counter and get it back 5-10 minutes later. Because lack of defenders. Make it take just a little more effort. Have some cool group activities to upgrade. Have some cool small group/roam activities against supply camps to stall those upgrades. Bottom line is the Keeps should require a bit more effort and organization to take.

No they won’t. Help will be there from the scouts call long before that.

I have no idea what goes on in the lofty heights of the higher tiers, but I know that in T7-8 NA where I play, we defend our towers and keeps, and sometimes even our camps, at least when we’re not facing a T5 or 6 that can field 30-50 player zergs on multiple maps.

As far as buffing NPC’s to make it take 2-4 to be able to take a camp? No, thanks. I’m sorry if you think camps get flipped too often, but I’d rather more options for solo WvW than less.

“When people spend time to game, they want to do something fun…..”, you are correct

I am both for and against this. I think Keeps and perhaps Towers could need some more guards in general, considering most of the people I often see when I play can solo them.

But I think camps are fine as they are, we do after all need something to do solo as well.

But I think a lot of this could be improved in other ways to, use more variation in the guards than just the two one used nowadays, add more cabalists and zealots etc to the usual guard rotation. Perhaps make more variants, like taking the NPC test dummies in HotM and use those as guards, could be interesting. Would make them slightly less predictable than the current ones.

At the same time, it really ticks me off when you randomly hit a deer or something with an aoe, and aggro the whole lot. Deer should flee first, not go red and berserk you. Wolves should attack in groups and only against few players, etc. This would also help for those that hates npc’s getting caught up in combat, if a Moa’s first reaction was to flee away from combats (even just being near them). While minotaurs might actually charge on the whole lot.

OP not to be rude, but you’ve only been playing for about a month judging by your post history. So probably spent even less time in WvW.

If after 2 years you want to fight more NPC’s than players I’d be very surprised. Indeed I’d be surprised if you were still playing WvW if you mainly fought NPC’s.

PolishTank.3156:

Disruption is fine however for one guy to fly around someone’s Borderlands and run back and forth taking multiple supply camps at only a couple minutes needed rate for each is a bit too easy. 2-4 people to take a supply camp I think is better balanced.

No. It is not. One single player keeping me busy, would prevent me from constantly killing dollies and taking camps. He doesn’t need to even defeat me, just slow me down (and I am far from invincible^^). Adding more PvE is really the wrong direction for WvW. Majority of WvW players want less PvE and more PvP in WvW.

The current state of WvW, supposed it is an fairly even matchup, requires players to take care of roamers: Find the infiltrator and send them where they belong: back to spawn. And not: “Bah, don’t worry, camps can defend themselves. All stack on tag and AA away.”

Its not really the NPCs on their own that’s the problem, its the fact that they dont scale with the opposition.

Still think NPCs should have an outmanned buff in various level of strenghts if there is more enemies than friendlies in the event area. Imagine if you are 30 capping a keep defended by 0 enemy players and the normal NPCs have the strength of a buffed lord. This wouldnt really affect roaming at all but it would stop the complete faceroll of NPCs dying in 0.2 seconds to the zerg.

It is essential that a solo player is able to capture a normal camp. Outside the busy prime the number of players per map can be very low even in the top tiers of EU. Now imagine if are the lonely guy on the map and the objectives are upgraded like the original poster suggests, you cannot get anything done! Solo roaming should not be punished. A great game mode caters many different gaming styles.

Most players have trouble soloing a fully upgraded camp, unless they use a build like this (which is made for this role):
http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Thief_-_Solo_Camp_Flipper

And I am sure majority of the players never solo a tower or a keep. The time window to do this in top tiers is usually very small. You have to be able to kill all the NPCs in less than 1 minute. I have often failed to capture a tower with 1-3 players, because the enemy forces have come there.

I don’t think you will find so many threads in this forum about solo roaming being too powerful in this game mode, but almost everybody agree that zerging is too prevalent. We often have massive blobs which mow over any objective, defended or not. A blob of 50+ players can very quickly flip the entire map and if the defenders have much less players, they can just use some siege disablers and supply traps, drain supplies etc. to slow them a bit, but in about 20 minutes is gone. This is highly irritating especially if you spent many gold pieces to upgrade and siege these locations. And of course players do this as it is the most rewarding way to play WvWvW (I don’t count EotM as WvWvW). Currently WvWvW is often border hopping flipping as much as possible in one map and then hopping to another to gain maximum of points.

I have suggested:
Capture camp/tower/keep/castle events are scaled to the amount of enemy players just like the pve events are. Extra archers will spawn to defend the objectives if a very large enemy force comes there (the very large could be 5+ for a camp, 10+ for a tower, 30+ for a keep and 50+ for Stonemist. The extra NPCs do not drop any loot and vanish if the location is still not captured after 3 minutes. This is to avoid EotM style of farming. The camp/tower/keep lord could be scaled in amount of hit points to make it harder to kill by a large enemy force. This would balance the population imbalance issues and make off-time (aka “night” capping) more time consuming and difficult.

There is just one thing which I would want to see a bit harder for a solo player:
killing a dolyak

A dolyak with guards should be either completely immune damage or take just 1/3 damage (thus you need to kill the guard and scout escorting it first). Because in its current state, the NPC guards are completely useless. You just spam damage to the dolyak and both of these guards vanish as well.

TyPin.9860:

PolishTank.3156:

Disruption is fine however for one guy to fly around someone’s Borderlands and run back and forth taking multiple supply camps at only a couple minutes needed rate for each is a bit too easy. 2-4 people to take a supply camp I think is better balanced.

No. It is not. One single player keeping me busy, would prevent me from constantly killing dollies and taking camps. He doesn’t need to even defeat me, just slow me down (and I am far from invincible^^). Adding more PvE is really the wrong direction for WvW. Majority of WvW players want less PvE and more PvP in WvW.

The current state of WvW, supposed it is an fairly even matchup, requires players to take care of roamers: Find the infiltrator and send them where they belong: back to spawn. And not: “Bah, don’t worry, camps can defend themselves. All stack on tag and AA away.”

But that’s the thing I believe that toughening up some objectives will create more PvP. I feel that Roamers and Zergs spend the majority of time chasing and countering each others’ take overs more than fighting each other. Giving Keeps and Towers a bit more auto defenses of some nature I think will counteract this.

SoPP.7034:

OP not to be rude, but you’ve only been playing for about a month judging by your post history. So probably spent even less time in WvW.

If after 2 years you want to fight more NPC’s than players I’d be very surprised. Indeed I’d be surprised if you were still playing WvW if you mainly fought NPC’s.

For sure I’m not the most experienced here; however I played mainly WvW when GW2 first came out and just came back a month ago. I’m somewhat disappointed that the constant quick hit objective taking is still so prevalent a couple years later, so I decided to post my opinion on it.

PolishTank.3156:

TyPin.9860:

PolishTank.3156:

Disruption is fine however for one guy to fly around someone’s Borderlands and run back and forth taking multiple supply camps at only a couple minutes needed rate for each is a bit too easy. 2-4 people to take a supply camp I think is better balanced.

No. It is not. One single player keeping me busy, would prevent me from constantly killing dollies and taking camps. He doesn’t need to even defeat me, just slow me down (and I am far from invincible^^). Adding more PvE is really the wrong direction for WvW. Majority of WvW players want less PvE and more PvP in WvW.

The current state of WvW, supposed it is an fairly even matchup, requires players to take care of roamers: Find the infiltrator and send them where they belong: back to spawn. And not: “Bah, don’t worry, camps can defend themselves. All stack on tag and AA away.”

But that’s the thing I believe that toughening up some objectives will create more PvP. I feel that Roamers and Zergs spend the majority of time chasing and countering each others’ take overs more than fighting each other. Giving Keeps and Towers a bit more auto defenses of some nature I think will counteract this.

So in other words youre angry your upgrades went to waste because no-one defended the objectives and you want people to blob up in one spot more?

Deniara Devious.3948:

It is essential that a solo player is able to capture a normal camp. Outside the busy prime the number of players per map can be very low even in the top tiers of EU. Now imagine if are the lonely guy on the map and the objectives are upgraded like the original poster suggests, you cannot get anything done! Solo roaming should not be punished. A great game mode caters many different gaming styles.

Most players have trouble soloing a fully upgraded camp, unless they use a build like this (which is made for this role):
http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Thief_-_Solo_Camp_Flipper

And I am sure majority of the players never solo a tower or a keep. The time window to do this in top tiers is usually very small. You have to be able to kill all the NPCs in less than 1 minute. I have often failed to capture a tower with 1-3 players, because the enemy forces have come there.

I don’t think you will find so many threads in this forum about solo roaming being too powerful in this game mode, but almost everybody agree that zerging is too prevalent. We often have massive blobs which mow over any objective, defended or not. A blob of 50+ players can very quickly flip the entire map and if the defenders have much less players, they can just use some siege disablers and supply traps, drain supplies etc. to slow them a bit, but in about 20 minutes is gone. This is highly irritating especially if you spent many gold pieces to upgrade and siege these locations. And of course players do this as it is the most rewarding way to play WvWvW (I don’t count EotM as WvWvW). Currently WvWvW is often border hopping flipping as much as possible in one map and then hopping to another to gain maximum of points.

I have suggested:
Capture camp/tower/keep/castle events are scaled to the amount of enemy players just like the pve events are. Extra archers will spawn to defend the objectives if a very large enemy force comes there (the very large could be 5+ for a camp, 10+ for a tower, 30+ for a keep and 50+ for Stonemist. The extra NPCs do not drop any loot and vanish if the location is still not captured after 3 minutes. This is to avoid EotM style of farming. The camp/tower/keep lord could be scaled in amount of hit points to make it harder to kill by a large enemy force. This would balance the population imbalance issues and make off-time (aka “night” capping) more time consuming and difficult.

There is just one thing which I would want to see a bit harder for a solo player:
killing a dolyak

A dolyak with guards should be either completely immune damage or take just 1/3 damage (thus you need to kill the guard and scout escorting it first). Because in its current state, the NPC guards are completely useless. You just spam damage to the dolyak and both of these guards vanish as well.

If you want to solo, then you’re in the wrong game mode, my friend. There are plenty of NPC mobs and outside events for a solo player to participate in (see Hylick camp in EB, Centaurs in Borderlands, etc.). But by no means should the active WvW objectives, the ones that are relevant to PvP interaction for defense and offense, should not be soloable by individual players. That makes for a weak gameplay that becomes a boring faceroll for those that are in a larger group as well as equally making it frustrating for those that do upgrades to make it more defensive.

In fact, even with current integration it’s rather annoying that a group of no more than 2 player can take a fully upgraded camp in less than a few minutes. This is a camp that a team wastes some 500 supply + 1g and nearly 1/2hr to upgrade. Does that seem right that all that work and effort be so easily overthrown by so little? No, it does not! It is wrong and should be tweaked so that a fully upgraded camp can only be taken with a minimum effort of 5 or more players.

Siphaed.9235:

If you want to solo, then you’re in the wrong game mode, my friend. There are plenty of NPC mobs and outside events for a solo player to participate in (see Hylick camp in EB, Centaurs in Borderlands, etc.). But by no means should the active WvW objectives, the ones that are relevant to PvP interaction for defense and offense, should not be soloable by individual players. That makes for a weak gameplay that becomes a boring faceroll for those that are in a larger group as well as equally making it frustrating for those that do upgrades to make it more defensive.

In fact, even with current integration it’s rather annoying that a group of no more than 2 player can take a fully upgraded camp in less than a few minutes. This is a camp that a team wastes some 500 supply + 1g and nearly 1/2hr to upgrade. Does that seem right that all that work and effort be so easily overthrown by so little? No, it does not! It is wrong and should be tweaked so that a fully upgraded camp can only be taken with a minimum effort of 5 or more players.

Great game design is inclusive, not exclusive.

Centaurs and Skritt in the borderland maps have always been useless events. Nobody comes there. Thus they are the most boring game-play in those maps. You cannot be serious to suggest me go and play them!

Now if the camps would get upgraded like you suggest, what to do when the entire map has just 1-2 players on your side? Not everybody plays all the time on the busy hours and I can imagine this is a very common problem on the lowest tiers. Just ask those people who play on Blacktide.

If the NPCs are greatly strengthened (and NOT scaled to the amount of enemies) the coverage problems are becoming even worse. The server with the best coverage will simply flip all the maps and then when the other server players wake up, they have an almost impossible uphill battle.

And trust me, I have spent tons of gold and time to upgrade camps and other objectives and seen it lost fast to just 3 enemy roamers. Still I am strongly against your idea.

Deniara Devious.3948:

Now if the camps would get upgraded like you suggest, what to do when the entire map has just 1-2 players on your side? Not everybody plays all the time on the busy hours and I can imagine this is a very common problem on the lowest tiers. Just ask those people who play on Blacktide.

If the NPCs are greatly strengthened (and NOT scaled to the amount of enemies) the coverage problems are becoming even worse. The server with the best coverage will simply flip all the maps and then when the other server players wake up, they have an almost impossible uphill battle.

And trust me, I have spent tons of gold and time to upgrade camps and other objectives and seen it lost fast to just 3 enemy roamers. Still I am strongly against your idea.

Your telling me there are some servers where sometimes there are only 1 or 2 players per side on the map at once? My god Arena Net merge some servers for crying out loud. That’s ridiculous.

Yeah, Solo Flipping must stay definetely.
Also flipping a fully upgraded Camp solo is also a thing, that requires SKILL and is absolutely nothing, that simply everybody can, nor every class build…

Its something only skillful players using specific classes can do fast and effective enough and so that nobody of your opposition might have enough time to stop you from doing it, because once the swords are there, time is ticking against you until someone recognizes that their camp gets attacked and at that point when this happens, you most likely want to have killed already the camp leader npc and be halfway done with flipping it to prevent a cat and dog fight for which the dog has nothing to do, than to buy enough time, until reinforcements follow or until those already killed stupid NPC’s respawn, what is imo something, that anet should change – once killed, it should stay dead, unless the owning side defends successfully and holds the place until the timer runs out, then the NPCs should in my opinino respawn first again so that these cheap time buy methods find an end and people actualyl really fight you, instead of running away and dpoing everythign thats neccessary to stay alive, in hope that either other players help them out in time or until NPCs respawn …

PolishTank.3156:

TyPin.9860:

PolishTank.3156:

Disruption is fine however for one guy to fly around someone’s Borderlands and run back and forth taking multiple supply camps at only a couple minutes needed rate for each is a bit too easy. 2-4 people to take a supply camp I think is better balanced.

No. It is not. One single player keeping me busy, would prevent me from constantly killing dollies and taking camps. He doesn’t need to even defeat me, just slow me down (and I am far from invincible^^). Adding more PvE is really the wrong direction for WvW. Majority of WvW players want less PvE and more PvP in WvW.

The current state of WvW, supposed it is an fairly even matchup, requires players to take care of roamers: Find the infiltrator and send them where they belong: back to spawn. And not: “Bah, don’t worry, camps can defend themselves. All stack on tag and AA away.”

But that’s the thing I believe that toughening up some objectives will create more PvP. I feel that Roamers and Zergs spend the majority of time chasing and countering each others’ take overs more than fighting each other. Giving Keeps and Towers a bit more auto defenses of some nature I think will counteract this.

Zergs don’t care about any kind of NPC strengths in a camp. They run over it in seconds anyway. And how would this benefit roaming? Making camps stronger either will make roaming not worth it, or it will make roamers team up more, while letting them do the same they soloed before, now they do it with teams of 5.

Really, the amount of PvE is already too much in WvW.