Guild Wars 2

Too much emphasis on total score in the WvW report screen is discouraging players from participating and confusing players who are playing.

We really do not need to know what scores the other servers are on. Even our own score is only relevant for counting the PvE bonus and server ranking.

Yet countless times I see many players making play decisons through the score, such as:

1) Deciding to hit the higher scoring opponent, when the lower scoring one has 2 more orbs than them, and is holding a larger piece of the objectives pie chart.
2) Deciding not to play because the score gaps are too wide, even though an enjoyable experience is possible regardless of score.

The second point is especially important.

There are a lot of people complaining on the forums about impossible odds with some worlds holding 100% of all maps. This is not because of a significant population difference between the servers. Most servers are full or semi-full, and, when the scores are favorable, gets a queue. Last sentence points to our problem—we do not just want people when the scores are favorable.

The first point demonstrate the problem further.

Actual server strength is not determined by the score. The score only determines how long they’re able to keep their edge against the other 2 servers. However, at any given time, you can estimate the opponent’s strength by the objectives they are currently holding.

And yet, this information is hidden behind an unintuitive interface.

In order to fix this problem a few things need to happen:

1) The points accrued by each server should be hidden information, used for server rankings and bonus calculation only. Additionally, at the end of each match up cycle, make a report on server rankings. This is the only time when it matters, and it doesn’t matter whether this report is done on the forum, wiki, or in game, or as part of the blog updates on the game’s official site.

2) The orbs are not adequately representing their significance. They represent +5% stats each, and require a more threatening presence on the report screen. The more orbs, the more substantial the graphic should be.

3) The pie chart and the objectives ranking are also important information that is currently represented by an ineffective infograph. The Pie chart needs to be replaced with the actual map (same as when one presses M) with all the actual objectives represented real time. This will also allow people to queue for the right map when they are outside of WvW.

4) The pve bonuses window shows good incentives, but they have nothing to do with the actual fight, this information can take a lower place.

Graphically, a proper WvW report window should look like the attached pic (I’m no artist).

I disagree. I like the drive to succeed that comes with knowing the score. I would hate not knowing how much I have to do to win or how much I’ve already done.

I’m sure there are a lot of people who like seeing the score, but I tend to agree with the OP that the net effect is negative.

You don’t need a score to know who’s ahead or what you have to do to win. Watch the pie chart. Look at the maps. Take and hold as much territory as you can, as long as you can. At the end of the match, the server who did that best wins. Just like now, except you don’t use some numerical value to determine whether or not you should queue.

I wholeheartedly support hiding any numerical score from players (it can be kept and used for matchmaking, as long as brackets aren’t presented in rank order, either).

Taking away the score introduces some uncertainty, and that’s GOOD. “I don’t see us with a lot of territory. We’re behind right now. I need to get in there and help, because all I know is we need to hold as much as possible as long as possible.”

See? That’s infinitely better than, “we’re down by 10,000 points. I won’t even bother to queue.”

100% agree with the OP.

I agree. Whenever I try to get people that are doing PvE to join PvP the most popular reason (besides “I like PvE”) is; “there’s no point, XYZ team is winning by too much”.

I disagree with idea of that winning is who claims the largest portion of land at the time. How would that affect matchmaking? What if a server doesn’t own anything all game, but grabs a bunch an hour before close?

I, however, think the server score being hidden until the match is over would have a very positive effect on morale, overall.

There’s more to it than just “We’re 10k behind, forget it…” There’s also, “We’re 10k ahead, we’ll get it later”

Servers need to attack the strongest server that is winning and keep up double teaming untill they have nothing left.
But it doesnt work that way it seems, they rather attack the weak and let the strong get stronger and stronger.

This is causing people to leave WvW and not queue again or to transfer off the the winning server.

HoD is getting a beating right now and hasnt have a queue for over a week,
Jade Query is the new place to be and they have hours and hours of queue.
Erredon Terrace is comming third with even less players then HoD.
Instead of both HoD + ET grouping up and wipe JQ you see no double teaming most of the time.

Its hard to attack a server who has double the players, but its a vicious circle and we all know what the zerglings want
karma and Exp nomnomnom doesnt matter if you lose Tier 3 upgraded keeps and towers as long as you can cap something the zerglings are happy.

I wish that more alliance’s are made inside servers who cover 24/7 – 7 days a week WvW.
And that they shut down free transfers to stop the bandwagon effects.
I also wish servers woulnt prey on the weakest server but double team the strongest server.

I have alot of patience, but things have to change before even more WvW guilds call it quits.

Fair weather players will always have some excuse. If you get rid of the scoreboard then they will base their willingness to play on the number of control points their side has at the time.

WvWvW design should not be based on the whims of players who only like it when they are winning.

/signed

People look at the score and they don’t go into WvW. I think showing the score in the current zone as the default would be a big improvement, then people would see the actual progress they are making where they are playing at.

Honestly, I have to agree that the current setup needs to go. They need pair three balanced servers together semi-permanently and get rid of the concept of ‘winning’, both in terms of server ranks and the point scoring. Just let them fight it out in perpetual warfare with certain benefits for the current progress of the server. They made WvW a pseudo-tournament and it just doesn’t fit the game mode.

I agree. Hide everything until the match is over. Your motivation should be trying to take everything you can in WvW. Keep it simple.

Ha, realm bonuses should have the step ladder effect for pve only. The bonus to your realm comes after the match is over. Yes, that means your realm has a locked in bonus during a new matchup.

WvW current bonus should be about what you own on the map +orb control.
Easy.

@epsilon: not “at the time”; over the entirety of the match. That’s exactly how it works now. I.e., that’s how the score is calculated. We’re just saying they should hide the score (any numerical info, actually).

…ok, to 1, that should be the point. People should want to knock them out of first place. They are winning the match at the time, so regardless of the pie chart, they are the ones with the edge. Just because they aren’t holding a lot at that moment doesn’t mean that they weren’t the strongest for the majority of the time up until that point.

To 2, that can happen regardless of the score. Fair weather players when they see a server they know is even remotely a challenge just won’t show up even before the scores get anywhere. Honestly, the current outmanned bonus should be a bonus for the lowest ranked of a tier to encourage them to join while the outmanned gives some kind of stat boost.

This is a fantastic idea. I especially like (2) and (3). Orbs are extremely important, and there currently isn’t a way to look at the WvW map without being there.

the scoreboard is not the problem. wvwvw design and very unbalanced servers (in terms of “24 hr presence” versus not) is the problem. Scoreboard simply reports on the truth of it.

+1 agreed, people are just losing the will to fight when they see the numbers, even on the winning side.

I don’t think it would change anything. Most people I know doesn’t join WvWvW not because of the score, but because we can’t hold anything. Removing the score won’t help the stomping issue.

If your bathroom is full of sh**t, you don’t blindfold people so they go in anyway. You wash the god hamn sh**t.

Let’s change things to protect fragile egos. Because that’s what pvp should be all about.

I disagree I think moral sinks when your color is represented by two dots on the map in a sea of green.

Kuari.8106:

…ok, to 1, that should be the point. People should want to knock them out of first place. They are winning the match at the time, so regardless of the pie chart, they are the ones with the edge. Just because they aren’t holding a lot at that moment doesn’t mean that they weren’t the strongest for the majority of the time up until that point.

What you said is part of the reason I made this post. I’ll give you and update on what happen afterwards. Team last place has built enough force to take down our stonemist castle. Fortunately it is what I predicted would be the case, so we were able to get it back easily.

The score is not “an edge.” It is the result of an edge in the past. It does not give you an accurate idea of the present or the future. The strength of the opponent’s forces are indicated by their current map objective and orb holding. This gives you an idea about how many people are online inside WvW and how organized (this is important) they are.

Strategic planning is complicated enough without irrelevant information clogging up our reports. Also, I’m tired of people quitting when the first sign of falling behind shows up. This is the reason why you are seeing the population differences. It is because of people quitting, not because there’s no one there. Last week we were obliterated by ET. This week there’s no one for us to kill. WvW will stay this way for the foreseeable future if no change is made.

I agree with the score system being flawed in the current implementation. It may work in systems with thousands of individuals gathering points such as PvP ranking, but it fails when applied to a very small group of very different servers. Currently unless the points received are being scaled by things such as number of people and number of objectives held, there can be no balance and we will see matches being already over after 1-2 days. It was so in pretty much all the matches I’ve been in since the launch and I can easily predict the outcome of future matches with the servers my server has encountered.

Once it is estabilished, usually after the first day, which server is the nightcapping one or the one with most players, the match is already over and the loosing servers loose a lot of motivation. Last match, my server had the strongest night crew, which translated to a 100000 points difference from server 2 at the end of the week. And no surprise there, we had full queues through the day. This match, we are faced with servers who have more night presence, and it is us who are at rank 3, and the other 2 servers are steady drifting away, there is no hope to ever catch them. It was decided after first night – but we have to suffer this for 2 weeks. And no surprise there, it has clear effect on the morale, EB has no queue for most of the peek time now, and the chat is pessimistic in general.

People are upgrading even more rarely than before, because what is the point, knowing we will loose all 4 maps during the night. This only makes the situation worse, we loose more keeps at peek time, and that pushes the other servers even further ahead. A closed circle.

That’s not how it works on Tarnished Coast.

We’ve been in 3rd place since early Saturday morning and all it’s done is made us resolve to fight harder. We pushed hard all weekend and Monday morning we broke through to 2nd place. Last night we rallied on Crystal Desert’s Borderland and took out a garrison and snagged an Orb.

The kind of people that give up when they’re behind aren’t the kind of people you want guarding your back anyway. Frees up the queue for people that play to win.

@viktorgraves: Then you can rest well on the fact that this modification will not change the way you participate, but it will improve your user experience by putting the area map in a window you can access from anywhere in game, including outside of WvW, you can utilize it in a few ways:

1) You can make the best choice when queuing for a map. No more blindly queuing for a borderland that is already overloaded when another one is in dire need of organized people.

2) During play, you can keep taps on the entire map by keeping the report window open, giving you relevant information in real time for quick decision making, without the hassle of having to switch out of the battle field. No more pressing M only to get ganked or eating the dust after the action is over.

This is the kind of smooth user interface you’d expect in 2012. Everyone will benefit from it all around.