Guild Wars 2

Overall WvW is more a measure of server population than server pvp skill. Certain top tier servers can just rely on zerg tactics to beat out a server like Maguuma or Dragonbrand which have half the population. Either some server population ppt balancing needs to happen or the high pop servers need to be grouped together. If this does not happen, the same servers will almost always dominate the WvW leaderboards making these tournaments pointless exercises with the results a foregone conclusion.

There is already a solution to combat population imbalances: 2v1.

I heard it works quite well.

2v1 is essentially win trading. Not exactly something to be proud of having to resort to in order to win.

And this subject has been beaten to death with different topic names.

Everybody can win though. The axiom explains it all quite well: If you can’t beat em, join em.

Loosmaster.8263:

And this subject has been beaten to death with different topic names.

And has never been fixed (if it can be).

Ross Biddle.2367:

Everybody can win though. The axiom explains it all quite well: If you can’t beat em, join em.

Has anet ever said if server collusion is allowed or not?

monkeysensei.6492:

Has anet ever said if server collusion is allowed or not?

Please, build a bridge.

Ready up said 2v1 was legitimate when the QQ started to flow and renaming it ‘server collusion’ makes you sound desperate.

I have no opinion either way (other than its bad by design). I just figured that kind of meta was frowned upon.

There is 2v1 but the bigger server is not getting teamed against usually nr1 and n3r team on nr2 …..

Yeah, the points and rating system encourages both 1 and 3 to attack 2.

You forgot coverage. Coverage is the most important aspect imo, even more than population.

Population gives coverage. 10 warm bodies are worth 1 skillful player.

monkeysensei.6492:

Population gives coverage. 10 warm bodies are worth 1 skillful player.

Not necessarily. A server can dominate in prime by a decent margin but if the other server has a zerg running in oceanic/sea, they can easily tick 400+ points and catch up.

For example when DB isn’t facing T1 servers, they can do this. Their prime isn’t strong enough to carry them in the higher tiers but their off hours coverage will paper every map. Even though DB will often have less population than servers they are fighting. In 5-6 hours they can catch up, pass and beat a heavier population server. They rely on the other two servers to keep each other busy during prime and beat both after hours at least in some matchups.

WvW actually isn’t all that good a measure of server population.

What WvW does measure is:

A) total man-hours spent in WvW by a server’s population
B) how evenly distributed those man-hours are on the 24-hour cycle

monkeysensei.6492:

2v1 is essentially win trading. Not exactly something to be proud of having to resort to in order to win.

Even if it is not a win in fights (which sometimes happens) it’s easily a win in PPT, just make 2 groups that PvD faster

Yeah. Like HOD and Yaks teamed against second server last week and now have teamed against third server SBI?
Hopefully Yaks end up where EBay did last year.

Wanze.8410:

There is already a solution to combat population imbalances: 2v1.

I heard it works quite well.

The 2v1 only works to shut down a stronger server if the 2 servers can reasonably match coverage as well, both primetime and off hours. The real issue with the t1 2v1 is that map population caps prevent the focused server from having the numbers to compete against what is being lined up against them.

160>80 (or whatever the map pop cap is)

Two t2 servers may be able to 2v1 a t1 server on home bl with full map blobs but the t2 servers lack of coverage would leave their home bl defenseless against the t1 blob there. T1 can queue all maps throughout primetime, T2 cannot.

Wanze.8410:

There is already a solution to combat population imbalances: 2v1.

I heard it works quite well.

Except it doesn’t work well at all. Unless you’re in gold tier and have a dedicated, consistent player base to repeatedly enforce the alliance.

Nick.6972:

Yeah. Like HOD and Yaks teamed against second server last week and now have teamed against third server SBI?
Hopefully Yaks end up where EBay did last year.

I don’t think HoD and YAK are teaming up on SBI, I just think HoD refuses to attacking anything that’s upgraded, thus ignoring YAKS.

They have the numbers to flip all of Yaks BL or FA BL but they never do. They focus the weaker server every match up, faster points and quicker.

Well this is old news. Their are a few skilled wvw guilds in every tier. The large militia zergs that are around during the low periods that determine alot of the lower tier match-ups.

2v1 doesn’t even the odds (which I think is what the devs wanted to happen). It shifts to odds in the opposite direction. It would only even the odds if population caps were altered somehow to compensate.

Ulion.5476:

Well this is old news. Their are a few skilled wvw guilds in every tier. The large militia zergs that are around during the low periods that determine alot of the lower tier match-ups.

Higher WvW population = more WvW guilds = more skilled guilds.

inazuma.7021:

2v1 doesn’t even the odds (which I think is what the devs wanted to happen). It shifts to odds in the opposite direction. It would only even the odds if population caps were altered somehow to compensate.

Exactly, HoD will never attack the harder target, they (smartly) target tier 1 objectives. If it’s anything more than T1 they will avoid it like the plague.

Perhaps a system where, say, a server is getting 2v1, and they are granted the opportunity to “call in reinforcements” with badges of honor. Collectively spend enough badges, and that server can raise it’s pop cap a decent amount for a time. Say, up to 100 or 120. I dunno the exact numbers, but enough to give them a much better fighting chance.

grifflyman.8102:

Nick.6972:

Yeah. Like HOD and Yaks teamed against second server last week and now have teamed against third server SBI?
Hopefully Yaks end up where EBay did last year.

I don’t think HoD and YAK are teaming up on SBI, I just think HoD refuses to attacking anything that’s upgraded, thus ignoring YAKS.

They have the numbers to flip all of Yaks BL or FA BL but they never do. They focus the weaker server every match up, faster points and quicker.

I’m not so sure…
Last week a med sized FA group was attacking YB Garri at inner (with YB already inside defending), when HOD blob arrived to wipe FA, and then retreated when it could have been an easy cap (most of the work was already done…)
YBs cheered/bow/waved their thanks.

KeresLee.5192:

grifflyman.8102:

Nick.6972:

Yeah. Like HOD and Yaks teamed against second server last week and now have teamed against third server SBI?
Hopefully Yaks end up where EBay did last year.

I don’t think HoD and YAK are teaming up on SBI, I just think HoD refuses to attacking anything that’s upgraded, thus ignoring YAKS.

They have the numbers to flip all of Yaks BL or FA BL but they never do. They focus the weaker server every match up, faster points and quicker.

I’m not so sure…
Last week a med sized FA group was attacking YB Garri at inner (with YB already inside defending), when HOD blob arrived to wipe FA, and then retreated when it could have been an easy cap (most of the work was already done…)
YBs cheered/bow/waved their thanks.

Pretty sure last week was all about breaking the even weeK / odd week cycle of all 3 matches in silver. The same 2 matches for 8 weeks was getting old (assuming previous patterns held). The result actually was potentially more harmful for YB than sticking to the pattern.

I certainly recall fighting a red force at bay outer while green tried to take down inner behind us last night. But meh, people will believe what they want and it doesn’t really matter tbh the way the tournament is scored…..

Edit: read the thread on ‘that other site’ and then decide for yourselves……
Not that any of this has to do with population > skill (really coverage) anyway….

Well, let me tell you this, YB doesn’t have SBI’s coverage, but they have had better strategy than us so far this week and they are winning. So, coverage doesn’t mean jack, if they find a way to counter it.

Some of our people are really bored with the match up already, cause YB doesn’t come out of the tower or keep to fight. They got mad arrowcart skills though. kitten , I think there was 500 in our hills when we broke in there earlier.

YB is great at defense, and that really helps them out a lot. I do wonder how long they can keep it up after the season (we are glad you moved up to 9th, so you can face HoD and FA every week when the season ends :P ).

Anyways, population was built into the game mode. It is a week long battle, which takes all that into account. But, if you are good at map hopping, or if you have a good strategy, you can overcome some of the population imbalance (especially if you are close to having the same numbers).

You need to have a balance of PPT warriors, “all I care about is fights” warriors, adn defenders, if you want to really be successfull.

inazuma.7021:

Perhaps a system where, say, a server is getting 2v1, and they are granted the opportunity to “call in reinforcements” with badges of honor. Collectively spend enough badges, and that server can raise it’s pop cap a decent amount for a time. Say, up to 100 or 120. I dunno the exact numbers, but enough to give them a much better fighting chance.

What a great idea! Then a stacking server can resort to the tactic that got it to tier 1 in the first place – more stacking!

Nick.6972:

Yeah. Like HOD and Yaks teamed against second server last week and now have teamed against third server SBI?
Hopefully Yaks end up where EBay did last year.

Last week was just an attempt to mix up the matches and ultimately it doesn’t hurt FA as two 2nd place finishes is the same as a 1st and 3rd. This week SBI is just not as strong as YB and YB seems to understand how to focus HoD away by defending their structures.

Rimmy.9217:

inazuma.7021:

Perhaps a system where, say, a server is getting 2v1, and they are granted the opportunity to “call in reinforcements” with badges of honor. Collectively spend enough badges, and that server can raise it’s pop cap a decent amount for a time. Say, up to 100 or 120. I dunno the exact numbers, but enough to give them a much better fighting chance.

What a great idea! Then a stacking server can resort to the tactic that got it to tier 1 in the first place – more stacking!

Maybe if the one server were allowed up to 160, but that wasn’t what I suggested. They’d still be outnumbered, just not as hopelessly. The idea is to make 2v1 a viable tactic for evening the odds, not dominating them.

monkeysensei.6492:

Population gives coverage. 10 warm bodies are worth 1 skillful player.

10 warm bodies bring 100 supply.

inazuma.7021:

Rimmy.9217:

inazuma.7021:

Perhaps a system where, say, a server is getting 2v1, and they are granted the opportunity to “call in reinforcements” with badges of honor. Collectively spend enough badges, and that server can raise it’s pop cap a decent amount for a time. Say, up to 100 or 120. I dunno the exact numbers, but enough to give them a much better fighting chance.

What a great idea! Then a stacking server can resort to the tactic that got it to tier 1 in the first place – more stacking!

Maybe if the one server were allowed up to 160, but that wasn’t what I suggested. They’d still be outnumbered, just not as hopelessly. The idea is to make 2v1 a viable tactic for evening the odds, not dominating them.

Fair enough, how about this: points scored by players in wvw go to the servers the accounts originally started on.

That way, people still get their fun fight and can play together wherever they like, but server stacking isn’t rewarded.

If server stacking isn’t rewarded, then there’s no need to penalize any Jenga server by completely negating their stacked advantage. Over time, people that want to make a difference reflected in PPT will leave servers they don’t originate from, stacked servers’ wvw populations will normalize, and the smugly superior tones of their forum posts will have to be backed up with actual playing skill.

Granted, it won’t save “server who must not be named” from not making first place in this tournament, but these things take time.

Then, if 2v1 turns out to be an actual problem, rather than just a tantrumy one, we can revisit the game mechanics.

SFR proves the original argument wrong… no.1 EU server… got to that position with a medium populated server which was messed up by the first tournament and free transfers. As for coverage… while there is 24/7 coverage on the server, a lot of the time most bl are outnumbered for long periods…. it is not so much coverage in terms of population but knowing how to make the most of the people you have at any one time…. which in a way is related to skill.

This is an age old question for any rvr oriented game. How do you balance population?
To date, I have seen no answers that are all that great.

GW2 is probably best in that there is at least always something to do.

What would be ideal is if GW2 would create an over/under for each server pairing. In other words, if SOS is taking on Maguma and Dragonbrand, chances are SOS wins. The real measure should be “by how much”.

Creating handicaps might be somewhat unfair (do you get the formula right) but probably a whole lot more fun than it is now for many servers.

I don’t care where “that server” ends up. I know nothing will be altered for this tournament, and rightly so. The prizes aren’t even that big a deal.

My concern is that 2v1 (and by that I mean the long term, coordinated version), will just become the new stacking problem. If you have a winning strategy, why ever stop? Coverage/stacking continues all the time, tournament or no.

2v1 as a way to stay competitive is great. I welcome that. 2v1 as a way to keep yourself and your buddy server permanently on top isn’t.

I guess I just wish winners were decided simply by who fought the hardest, and you could never be certain who that would be week to week. That would keep WvW interesting. At least to me, but maybe I’m just dreaming.

So continuing to stack a server off season to maintain position is OK but not a constant 2v1 to counter it is not?

I for one am glad someone finally took the time to research this and enlighten everyone with this small yet secretive piece of information. Up until this point I just figured T1 was hogging all of the skill.

monkeysensei.6492:

Overall WvW is more a measure of server population than server pvp skill. Certain top tier servers can just rely on zerg tactics to beat out a server like Maguuma or Dragonbrand which have half the population. Either some server population ppt balancing needs to happen or the high pop servers need to be grouped together. If this does not happen, the same servers will almost always dominate the WvW leaderboards making these tournaments pointless exercises with the results a foregone conclusion.

and we care why?