Guild Wars 2

I actually find the last two comments by Roac and Fannwong very interesting. Thanks for the perspective, you two!

Fannwong, you said you tried hard to make it stick, but it didn’t. What did you try? Did you simply spend time in it? Did you attempt to get to know all of its paths, shortcuts, and characteristics? I’m not like you as a player, so I’m very curious what your mentality is.

My initial reaction is to say “You spent 3 years getting acclimated to the Alpine borderlands, and it has been 2 weeks since HoT released. Is it still a bit too early to tell?”, but there has to be something I’m missing. Also, what could you do to make the new BL your home? Is there anything?

Melanion.4892:

I wvw fairly frequently. Rank 2265, mostly roaming in groups of 2-5 or going around with groups of 15-20. I only ktrain when I’m incredibly bored.

I actually like the new map. It’s a welcome change, the only trouble is nobody wants to be there. There are plenty of opportunities to play with the environment to beat people while outnumbered. Worst part is that nobody is there to fight. My roaming buddy and I spent about 2 hours on the borderland last Saturday and Sunday, then again this Friday, each time during NA prime. The fights were actually fun. Terrifying fights on the ledges in the southeast. Only thing I could ask for is more people to play on the map, whether it be a zerg or roamers. It’s a great map for a smart zerg and even better for roaming.

Tl;dr: don’t write off the new map so quickly. Learn the map. Play the map. When there are more people on the map, it’s going to be more fun. As it is, it’s fun when people are playing.

Yeah but this is the exact problem. No one wants to play on that BL. Sure eventually they will trickle back into the mode, but I fear the harm has been done. Last night, NA T1 primetime NA, and our group of 10 took 4 keeps on 3 different BLs, and the only enemy players we saw were a couple rangers trying to keep us off a door. We killed them, and no one else showed up.

That’s not a downward trend, that’s a catastrophe.

Hello Cogbyrn,

I only WvW, so even when my guild does GMs I don’t go because I do not like PVE, I like fighting real people. My fractal is only lvl 1, I tried it for 20min and dropped the raid because I couldn’t take the boredom.

I spend about 80% of my WvW in borderlands vs EBG. I do not fight for karma, gold nor the loot because I have my ascended weapons and armor. I have been kindly supported by my guild [SOX] officers for siege and the like. I work with 5-20 realm mates in WvW usually. I fight to kill enemies, destroy structures, get PPT.

I communicate in TS and private chats with smaller groups like scouts, skirmishers and roamers for knocking off yaks, scouting and tapping keeps across 2 or 3 maps including EBG.

I tried the new maps every day since it came out. I did not buy HoT because I am running a frontline guardian about 99% of the time so DH didn’t interest me.

I was in the new post-HoT WvW for 100% of the time that I was logged on. Tried the paths, etc.

There are many issues at hand with the new borderlands, I will highlight a few that bothered me in T1 (just me, I don’t presume to speak for anybody else in the same tier or other tiers. I recognise that each tier has different population density in WvW and this changes gameplay).

1. Automatic Upgrades – This is a big issue. When I raid either with 5 or 20, I make it a point to break structures when the opportunity arises. As the old upgrades were made by real people, breaking structures makes me feel like I’ve accomplished against the enemy something when I finally take the structure. When I take part or lead defence of our fortified/reinforced keep, it feels good because I’ve helped my realm mates who worked as a team taking hours to upgrade and siege the structure with love and care.

Having automatic upgrades robs the incentive to defend and attack. I felt that by breaking a structure I wasn’t fighting against a human enemy because it was done automatically.

2. WP Changes – WP is a projection of power way beyond the keep, almost 1/3 of the old BL map. This is key in upgrading a keep. Taking a WP deals a serious blow to the enemy and it affects the strategic play in the map. Taking a WP also deals a big blow to enemy morale. Having 3 WPs in a our borderland meant that the borderland was in our control, it’s like having a homeland secured. We even had folks who were dedicated to homeland defence.

When the WP on left and right keep went missing, it changed the map considerably. On a strategic level, it changed the thought process and way that we could defend it. It became very hard for a small population to defend the homeland. Losing east/west keep wasn’t so important because no WP meant that the south was hard to contain anyway. Btw, even in T1, WvW population can drop very dramatically in off peak so much so that home BL can only muster 10+ folks sometimes.

3. Fortified Doors – This discourages 5 man teams to take a fortified structure, with fortified doors the structure did not have a weakness. Reinforced gates in fortified structures gave small groups a fighting chance to break it.

4. Map Size & Complexity – This is very subjective, for me it felt the map was made with numerous alternatives to approach an objective. This would be great if we had a huge population like launch time but with a smaller pop it’s very hard to find fights or drop an ambush.

Overall, I feel that a combination of these factors plus others have made me stop loving and playing WvW.

FW

Cogbyrn.7283:

I actually find the last two comments by Roac and Fannwong very interesting. Thanks for the perspective, you two!

Fannwong, you said you tried hard to make it stick, but it didn’t. What did you try? Did you simply spend time in it? Did you attempt to get to know all of its paths, shortcuts, and characteristics? I’m not like you as a player, so I’m very curious what your mentality is.

My initial reaction is to say “You spent 3 years getting acclimated to the Alpine borderlands, and it has been 2 weeks since HoT released. Is it still a bit too early to tell?”, but there has to be something I’m missing. Also, what could you do to make the new BL your home? Is there anything?

Roac, Fannwong, very eloquently stated, and sentiments I think Anet would be wise to consider thoughtfully.

I, too, approach things with a light RP perspective. I’ve always been a bookworm and am even now procrastinating on the several hundred pages I have to deliver by sunday for the novel I’m working on, so stories are very important to me.

With that in mind, the new BLs with their unique, named characters for each lord and the individually themed objectives are a godsend. There’s soooo much more flavor in this map than in Alpine. There’s also more terrain variation—one side of the map looks nothing like the other. As a result, it does feel less like home, but I’m perfectly happy with that as it feels far more exciting. This is a place to have adventures, actually.

I’m not sure there’s a way to solve this problem for those whom it exists with, but the new map is in my opinion superior as a creative base moving forward.

Fann I feel the same.

One thing I highly dislike since HoT is the lack of player interaction to scout/upgrade/yak snipe. There was an element to upgrading structures and helping your server-mates out which is no long there due to NPC’s automatically upgrading the structures.

Players used to be able to be proud of defending a WP, or T3 objective, while now there is very little need for defending unless a server wants to avoid waiting the bit it takes for the upgrades to finish on their own.

The new map does not feel like “home” to me, per say. It’d make a great PvE map, but I do not like it for WvW. (Unless new features like wvw gliding were to be added, then I would have to re-access the situation.) I feel there are more twists/turns, and anyone who can run stability 24/7 could get away with a lot. Think of 1 player trolling in EOTM with fear, and now imagine that non stop on the BL’s.

It’s just not a good feel, it feels “broken” and less “fluid” then most maps in the game do. Not to mention the size of the maps vertically. (And yes I have 100% world completion so I have been through the other maps in game, but you can blame that on mainly launch queues for wvw, when GW2 came out. lol)

Some features of the new BL’s I do like, such as the keep lords fearing players and so on. I find that a bit refreshing then the NPC just standing still to die. However overall I do not care for the new borderland maps much currently.

I saw the title, and I figured that was me too.

Anet, it was too late, but I tried at least telling you how bad your new maps were. Yes, they are beautiful. I respect the effort you put into making them look nice.

….That’s it.

They are just about unplayable. I’m glad I’m on a mid-tier server. The rush to EB is going to be insane on high-pop maps. I mean, NSP already queues it, but it’s not terrible.

Actually, once people get everything from HoT, what will you do?

Hello Jdallen,

Thank you.

But I think Anet will do what they do and look at metrics.

I am guessing that 100% WvWers are a small subset of GW2 players.

Every company will look at how they can increase profits, and they will always appease the majority of players. I think that WvW update/feedback will take quite a bit of time for Anet to respond because our numbers are small compared to the majority they need to handle. I don’t blame Anet, I run a small company and it’s incredibly hard to find a balance between service and resource. They cannot please everyone.

Looking at the scale and detail of the map, crafting it likely took about 1.5-2years. I don’t think Anet will change anything soon.

FW

jdallen.5179:

Roac, Fannwong, very eloquently stated, and sentiments I think Anet would be wise to consider thoughtfully.

Selwynn.2758:

I have played GW2 since beta, and I’ve been on a single server – through thick and thin – since beta. I’m also 38 which also seems relevant as context for my perspective.

Former DAoC player, WvW (or realm vs. realm as us old farts used to know it) has been my gaming life. For over a decade I went from MMO to MMO trying to find one that would replicate the joy I found in DAoC. For me, Guild Wars 2 did that.

And HoT has utterly trashed WvW and thrown it in the toilet.

My review is pretty simple, here is how the new BLs fail and will mark the death knell for WvW unless something very drastic is done. I know of not a SINGLE person who considers WvW they’re primary interest who would ever – EVER – ask for more PvE in their WvW. Not one.

And yet, not only has PvE “events” of various types been jammed into the new BLs all over the place, but the thing that has the most power to influence events in the BLs is a PvE event that happens every three hours. The big crescendo, the big “feature” of WvW BLs is now a PvE gather quest.

This design shows that Anet has absolutely no idea why WvWers do what they do. If you primarily PvE, and only occasionally go out to WvW for some off time, you aren’t looking for PvE in your WvW either. You’ll go to every other part of the game to get that – done better. But if you WvW as your main gameplay, its because PvE isn’t what you are really looking for in a game. Now non-player activities are the defining feature of BLs.

The second total failure is the utter GIMMICKY nature of BLs. All of the gimmicks are of pveish variety as well. Sandstorms, pve control points that grant different global environmental effects, cute little maze little portal hops and on and on. None of this makes for quality WvW of either large or small scale.

The final failure is in map layout design itself. These are some of the most over-designed maps I’ve ever experienced. If the intent was to eliminate large blob open field fights, Anet might have partially succeeded, but only due to making the BLs total ghost towns. WvW has been and will always be, a home for large force battles. Yup. That’s why WvW is WvW. Yes, sometimes we all complain when one server feels like they have a map blog three times as big as ours, or at times when we want to have small group skirmishes, but all we can find are large zergs roaming about.

But the truth is – we whine – but don’t want that fixed. At least not like you have done – by introducing more PvE and more gimmicks into WvW. Zergs are part of WvW. We complain sometimes, and then we love them and join in on the action other times. They can be a problem, but they are also a natural and unavoidable consequence of WvW done RIGHT. You can’t fix numbers imbalance by map engineering. My old fart WvW relics and I have a saying: “Find PvP solutions to PvP problems.”

You’ve made PvE maps confusing and tedious to navigate, floored them with gimmicks, and increased the PvE in them to biblical proportions…. And now no one goes there. I usually try hard to be at least a little balanced in reviews. But I honestly give WvW int he HoT expansion a true “F.”

Sad.

+1.

C E J O.1752:

I saw the title, and I figured that was me too.

Anet, it was too late, but I tried at least telling you how bad your new maps were. Yes, they are beautiful. I respect the effort you put into making them look nice.

….That’s it.

They are just about unplayable. I’m glad I’m on a mid-tier server. The rush to EB is going to be insane on high-pop maps. I mean, NSP already queues it, but it’s not terrible.

Actually, once people get everything from HoT, what will you do?

This kind of lack of feedback kind of reenforces what was mentioned earlier in the thread. All you really say is that “the maps are unplayable”. Thay doesn’t mean anything really.

Why do you feel they are unplayable? That is a question that needs a bit of detail, so that your feedback has value.

I posted a fair amount of argument some time ago because people were demanding new maps, larger maps, and the concept of wanting to make it easier to defende. I repeatedly mentioned the need for detail in how to accomplish that. Most posters simply made broad demands of those aspects with no detail. Now Anet offered new maps and systems in an attempt to fill those demands. It seems many who demanded changes, are unhappy with them. Personally I feel the lack of detailed feedback is precisely what got us to this point.

C E J O.1752:

I saw the title, and I figured that was me too.

Anet, it was too late, but I tried at least telling you how bad your new maps were. Yes, they are beautiful. I respect the effort you put into making them look nice.

….That’s it.

They are just about unplayable. I’m glad I’m on a mid-tier server. The rush to EB is going to be insane on high-pop maps. I mean, NSP already queues it, but it’s not terrible.

Actually, once people get everything from HoT, what will you do?

This kind of lack of feedback kind of reenforces what was mentioned earlier in the thread. All you really say is that “the maps are unplayable”. Thay doesn’t mean anything really.

Why do you feel they are unplayable? That is a question that needs a bit of detail, so that your feedback has value.

I posted a fair amount of argument some time ago because people were demanding new maps, larger maps, and the concept of wanting to make it easier to defende. I repeatedly mentioned the need for detail in how to accomplish that. Most posters simply made broad demands of those aspects with no detail. Now Anet offered new maps and systems in an attempt to fill those demands. It seems many who demanded changes, are unhappy with them. Personally I feel the lack of detailed feedback is precisely what got us to this point.

Thank you Fann (and others) for elaborating nicely. I actually agree with the sentiments you and others have had around automatic upgrades, and how there needs to be a player element in some way to restrict that process.

I’m going to try to generalize the points into two concepts that I think serve as the root of the problem: rallying around something, and discouragement.

The new map seems to have much less to rally around. When something automatically upgrades, people don’t rally to save it, because they feel less strongly about it. Without WPs projecting influence in a meaningful way, people don’t rally around defense of those objectives. What appears to have caused many of the fights/defenses was a reason to rally around an objective, and that’s missing in the Desert BL. It sounds like that concept is sorely needed.

Also, the new map is generally discouraging, in many ways. Something new like this is always going to be, by nature, discouraging at first. People don’t necessarily want to change if they are comfortable, so if anything, the new map should feel extra encouraging to really get people into it. However, it’s large. It’s more complex. You can walk to an objective and look around, saying “Wait, where is it?”, then spend 5 minutes (or more, if you’re me) trying to get to it. Objectives are automatically upgrading, so you might not be able to accomplish the goals you want with a small group. You’re forced to be more careful when navigating because the terrain is often precipitous, and some placed CC can kill you if you aren’t careful.

At this point it isn’t even about incentive, really, it’s about wanting to be encouraged to go to the map and do something. There needs to be some design reason to make players rally around objectives on the new maps, and there needs to be more design reasons to encourage people and uplift them somehow when they get there.

I honestly think gliding would go a long way to making the Desert BL feel a lot more fun/engaging. You’re encouraged to go up high, because you can glide down lower. Also, if you get knocked off a platform, assuming you recover from the CC you can deploy your wings and save yourself from dying, although you’ll be displaced from the fight. The simple fact that you didn’t die, though, is encouraging. I feel like it’s more “Ah, shoot” then “I hate this”.

Of course gliders don’t provide anything to rally around. My question about WPs as a concept to rally around: is there something else that can be as meaningful as a WP to rally around that doesn’t necessarily make travel time to defend instant (in that short period where it’s available every once in a while)? Isn’t there a merit to actually “sieging” an objective and keeping people at bay, instead of the game letting them skip that and be in?

Or is it more beneficial from an encouragement standpoint to allow people to get in on defense during short bursts as a specific design mechanic, to reward defenders for perseverance? Even if the WP only lets X number of people in, it would allow a rush of reinforcements that is encouraging to the defense, hopefully causing them to be more likely to defend.

Of course everyone is going to be different and be discouraged by different things. Everyone is going to have a different idea of what would get them to rally behind something. However, I sort of feel like those two ideas are underlying many of the complaints, and should be addressed in some way. I do think players should be responsible for combating some of the discouragement themselves, because it is born of inexperience (like trying to find where objectives are and how to get to them). I’ve personally done that and solo roamed Desert BL for multiple hours just to get a better feel for it, and I like it a lot more as a result without that intimidating sitting in front of me.

However, I would love to see ANet act, even in small ways.

Give us back the old borders and rotate one of the new borders, let’s see which borders are more popular…. the new lay-out is just a huge failure.

Sometimes people just want to express their sadness…and not have to explain it. This thread allows them to. If people have solid details…let them come forward. If some just want to express their feelings…let them.

This is similar to a funeral of sorts…the death of our Old Alpine Map…let’s give folks space to grieve.

There’s lots of other threads that have detailed feedback that offers solutions to fix everything in WvW.

Peace

Luna Aldara.3451:

Give us back the old borders and rotate one of the new borders, let’s see which borders are more popular…. the new lay-out is just a huge failure.

I do not desire the old BLS back unless the fix the areas siege can be dropped in and not reached by the opponent. I do not desire them back until they fix the small areas that exploited can run to and be invulnerable once they leave the safety of thier spawn area.

Diku.2546:

Sometimes people just want to express their sadness…and not have to explain it. This thread allows them to. If people have solid details…let them come forward. If some just want to express their feelings…let them.

This is similar to a funeral of sorts…the death of our Old Alpine Map…let’s give folks space to grieve.

There’s lots of other threads that have detailed feedback that offers solutions to fix everything in WvW.

Peace

And that mentality is what got us in this situation. Your supporting the bahavior that worsened the problem. I am suggesting that we change some of those bad habits so that they know where everyone stands on thier view of the solution.

Ellington them there is a problem, while making an effort not to tell them why, only offers the potential to make future changes worse. You may support that concept, but I do not.

I keep seeing people talk about how much they dislike the new maps and that saddens me.

The new maps have revitalized WvW for my guild and several others I know. They feel more strategic, more engaging for groups of all sizes and more fun in general.

I know I will get attacked (it is the forums) just for daring to like something in the game, but I think people need to give them more of a chance. Dont dismiss just because it is something new and will take time for people to learn.

I totally agree with the OP ( Percival <3 <3 <3 ).

The BLs are terrible. I actually like PvE events in WvW as it gets some other portions of the community to join in. It should NOT however be a map changing event.

Yes, there are chokepoints and narrow passages which are great for tactical use. However, they are EVERYWHERE. Fighting a larger force in a choke point isn’t smart use of the terrain when you have no choice.

All the cheesy “gimmicks” (perfect word for it, Selwynn!) are just silly. The shrine buffs seemed ok, but the jumping puzzles, gusts of wind, crazy “PvE boss” lord abilities and the like are misplaced in WvW.

The guild claiming, upgrades and stronger camps all really hurt the lower population servers right in the gonads. When your prime time zerg is 15-20, not being able to count on a solo here and there working camps is a real blow. They could at least scale things for server size.

Ivarr Wolfsong.2986:

I totally agree with the OP ( Percival <3 <3 <3 ).

The BLs are terrible. I actually like PvE events in WvW as it gets some other portions of the community to join in. It should NOT however be a map changing event.

Yes, there are chokepoints and narrow passages which are great for tactical use. However, they are EVERYWHERE. Fighting a larger force in a choke point isn’t smart use of the terrain when you have no choice.

All the cheesy “gimmicks” (perfect word for it, Selwynn!) are just silly. The shrine buffs seemed ok, but the jumping puzzles, gusts of wind, crazy “PvE boss” lord abilities and the like are misplaced in WvW.

The guild claiming, upgrades and stronger camps all really hurt the lower population servers right in the gonads. When your prime time zerg is 15-20, not being able to count on a solo here and there working camps is a real blow. They could at least scale things for server size.

I think your absolutely incorrect about choke points. Funneling a large force into them is precisely where you want to fight against st a large force. Which is why very many were demanding more choke point ts when new maps were comming.

Been somewhat inactive for over a year or so and the auto-upgrades hurt the roaming community. I look at wvw as a build up of players taking bigger and bigger objectives. EB is the map that zergs go to fight other zerg. The BL was a place for smaller groups (2-5man groups) to go fight or taking lightly defended objectives. The first objective I encounter is a fully upgraded camp/tower due to no one being on the map during the down period when I play. Taking fully upgraded camps/towers are painful. Also, HoT only added a new bl with nothing new to work for in WvW. Will I be able to spent my +10k badges on a kitten looking WvW skin, no all of those come from PvE. Yea still have 10k badges after 2yrs of being inactive :P.

Cogbyrn.7283:

@Selwynn: I’m one of those who would self-identify as WvW focused, and I personally think WvW needs more merging between PvP and PvE. I think there has to be a way you can incentivize both types of players to participate in WvW and contribute meaningfully if you direct them with the appropriate carrot. I hate saying it, and I don’t understand it, but so many MMOers don’t play MMOs for fun, they play for reward. I think that reward needs to be guided, and can be guided, so both sides find enjoyment.

I also don’t think the laser event is rewarding for both types of players. It only really matters for PvP players (making an objective easier to take), as a PvEer could receive the same reward for the same locations just zerging around at a different time. It isn’t that the event is solely PvE, because it’s technically a competitive gathering event. You can run over and sabotage other groups of players to keep them down while your world continues to gather. It’s just that nobody really cares that much, because 5 mins after something is taken because of the event, someone else will probably take it back anyway.

I worry that if you make the game too PvP-only, what you’ll get are only PvPers. In my experience, especially in larger-scale PvP, PvPers quit regularly if the going gets too tough. They transfer guilds, transfer worlds, leave the game and blame it for their “loss”, or they try to stack the deck in their favor, removing competition.

PvEers aren’t infallible by any means, but with the right events, they would serve as a target both for attack and defense. Ideally, it would be like a caravan roaming through the wild. It’s a target for being attacked, and therefore it should have defense.

The main issue is that you have to make WvW more rewarding than PvE training in the direction of something PvEers want, so they risk the failure of not getting it all the time. Also, if it gets really popular, you might deal with queues again.

I just honestly think WvW will continue to dwindle unless they make the map feel more like an open world environment, complete with players who don’t necessarily want to fight.

I’m not trying to convince you, just sharing the opinion of someone else on the WvW spectrum. Personally, I exclusively want to be fighting people. I just also want WvW to feel more like open-world, and less like a big sPvP map (which it does actually feel to me, even with the maze-y maps and NPC-defended objectives).

Yeah, I don’t agree with any of that. BUT it was well stated, and rational. Just polar opposite of what I want. Weird too, cause its polar opposites of what any WvWer I know wants. I’m on JQ, in cross guild voice chat daily, and on server boards and wow – you’re the first person I’ve ever read or heard in my community who wants WvW, the one place in the game that is designed for open world PvP, to have more PvE in it.

But… you explain yourself well. Thanks for that.

If every map had 2-3 players flipping back camps quickly, the structures would take a full 5-6 hours to fortify which isn’t bad. Gone are the days when you can just roll over and die and come back in awhile to start taking things back slowly going clockwise around the map. With this new system, the Time War dictates that you need people killing yaks from the moment they take the camp/tower/keep. Every 2.3 minutes that they own an active supply line is 7.3 minutes of upgrades they are getting. If you ignore the supply lines, that 30 minutes until it secures is no time at all and that 6 hours to fortify can be less than 2 hours.

If you feel your Earth Keep and northern towers aren’t worth defending, try losing them:

• You now have to spawn at the very top of the map.
• You now have 4 barricades erected between you and the majority of the map (which can be repaired very easily even if you take the time to destroy one.)
• Enemies can camp barricades, kill you, and escape through the portal.
• The non-barricaded paths to the rest of the map involve running all the way around the back of the northern towers and running past sentries.
• If the enemy controls the Earth Keep and shrines, they can hunt you in stealth while you are crippled and running into rock walls.
• It is nearly impossible to defend your home side keeps if you don’t control the north.
• Less committed players will give up and leave if they encounter too much running or getting stuck behind barricades or being hunted in the Shifting Sands.

Rule #1 of the Time War: Act Faster

coglin.1867:

Ivarr Wolfsong.2986:

I totally agree with the OP ( Percival <3 <3 <3 ).

The BLs are terrible. I actually like PvE events in WvW as it gets some other portions of the community to join in. It should NOT however be a map changing event.

Yes, there are chokepoints and narrow passages which are great for tactical use. However, they are EVERYWHERE. Fighting a larger force in a choke point isn’t smart use of the terrain when you have no choice.

All the cheesy “gimmicks” (perfect word for it, Selwynn!) are just silly. The shrine buffs seemed ok, but the jumping puzzles, gusts of wind, crazy “PvE boss” lord abilities and the like are misplaced in WvW.

The guild claiming, upgrades and stronger camps all really hurt the lower population servers right in the gonads. When your prime time zerg is 15-20, not being able to count on a solo here and there working camps is a real blow. They could at least scale things for server size.

I think your absolutely incorrect about choke points. Funneling a large force into them is precisely where you want to fight against st a large force. Which is why very many were demanding more choke point ts when new maps were comming.

I wasn’t very clear. I meant yes, you want to force a fight at the chokepoints with a larger force BUT it isn’t smart play when its all choke points… you have no choice. There is no thinking in it at all. Its like saying someone is playing smart by rolling a bowling ball down the alley instead of across several alleys

BrickFurious.7169:

I’m honestly not trying to be pedantic here, but I’ll repeat myself again in different words: Calling the oasis event a “PvE event” is not only nonsensical, it’s not helpful at all in describing what you’re really complaining about. You think it is clear that when you call it a “PvE gather quest”, that we should understand the criticism you are trying to level, and it isn’t clear at all.

Any event in which I fight non player mobs to drop pieces of loot that I then carry to a Non-player character in order to get a reward of a non-player action in which a giant automatic lazer does damage is more than reasonably called “PvE.” It doesn’t matter that others players might show up to this event. The event does not depend on any opposing players to show up, and can be completed solo. I know, because I did it.

The oasis event is an objective, in a PvP map, where enemy players can interfere with your ability to complete it. By that very definition it is not a PvE event. In a PvE event, the only enemies that can interfere with your ability to complete it are computer controlled characters or computer controlled environments.

OK, you don’t think I’m using the term PvE correctly. Fine. So I will make up a new term to name what I am talking about. I shall call it Doober vs. Flumpy (or DvF) Since I’m making the term, you can’t come back and tell me I defined it wrong.

So now I can tell you how I define DvF. For that, I refer you back to my previous posts.

This seems to be your true complaint, and it is clearly stated (thank you). You bury it in all your talk about “WvW-focused players” and “PvE events” and its value is nearly lost because of that.

You keep telling me what my “true” complaint is, which is insulting. I keep rewriting more than this, you keep responding by telling me, “no that’s not really what you mean.”

(1) I don’t like DvF activities in my WvW experience. Ever. My problem is not only that the single oasis event is too impacting. My problem is also that it exists at all.

(2) I also don’t like the gimmicky (my opinion, other’s disagree) environmental effects in the zone. Any time the landscape and environment becomes its own “character” in a WvW zone (when the land can rise up and block you with rock walls, or winds knock you down, or dust stealths you, or portals are set up like mazes, or the landscape is complex enough to create travel funnels or barriers to direct access) I hate it. I don’t want to battle the environment (in this case literally the environment) I want to battle other players.

I’ve written this in every post I’ve made and you’ve ignored it and said I only care about oasis in ever response you’ve made.

(3) The new BLs clearly seemed designed with the intent of breaking up large map forces. I hate this as well, and never wanted it. I said previously I know that this point is a lot more contentious, and lots of people disagree. But my opinion is that WvW is for large scale army battles. Doesn’t mean there’s never a role for a small group or a solo scout – it just means that the main thrust of WvW is large server armies of players vs. large server armies of players. It means there will be player imbalance at times. But in my opinion, that’s a price worth paying.

I also wrote about this in both of my previous posts.

Ivarr Wolfsong.2986:

I totally agree with the OP ( Percival <3 <3 <3 ).

OMG I was on Percival as well! MIDGARD!!

Selwynn.2758:

And yet, not only has PvE “events” of various types been jammed into the new BLs all over the place, but the thing that has the most power to influence events in the BLs is a PvE event that happens every three hours. The big crescendo, the big “feature” of WvW BLs is now a PvE gather quest.

1. The “PvE” event in the middle of the map is only boring if nobody turns up to contest it. The content is intended to be BUSY. If you want fights, which is the mantra of many WvW players, the “PvE” event is where to get them.

2. It’s not every 3 hours, it is every 1 hour. If you ever left the home map you might notice this. I think a lot of players need to realise that there is such a thing as attacking.

So perhaps Selwyn, Fannwong and others of our ilk are operating in a more intuitive space (we’re not ‘feeling’ it) and that approach does not provide sufficent factual issues to address. Fine. But I would have hoped that the designers would have had a design philospophy beyond just coding.

So, specifics. When I look at the new elements introduced in the Desert map, I want to see the value add of the addition. Is it to fix a weakness (percieved or otherwise) in the Alpine map? What it to provide a different play space? A kitchen sink?

The autoupgrading mechanism would seem (I’m guessing) to be an answer to the problem of ‘coverage’ – an equalizer for population timezone imbalances. If that was indeed the rationale, then does it solve the problem and are there unintended consequences?

Map size: Was Alpine too small? Did we need more objectives and more speedbumps?

Verticality and Complexity: Alpine too homogenous and needed more spice? And more speedbumps? (I’d have argued for map size or complexity, not both)

Is it just me or are those two waypoints in the south permanently contested?

Terrain Forcing the Breakup of Large Forces: I don’t want the terrain to do it. I want us to come up with ways to exploit the terrain to do it. Or not, if we’re in the mood to run screaming into each other like orcs and well, other orcs.

Map Objectives with Consequences (that aren’t keeps): Remember the Orbs? Removed almost immediately. The quaggen island and bloodlust points were available, but optional. The Desert shrines and lasers (ugh tech) et cetera only make me ask the same question I asked on Alpine: if the camps and shrines are so bloody important, why aren’t the keeps built on them. What are the Desert fortifications defending? They just exist for the sake of being there.

Edge of the Mists is huge, difficult to traverse, and exists only as a special arena hell where people can happily slaughter each other. With loot. (I love loot.) Eternal Battleground is similar, but there are enough differences to make them distinctive. What does Desert provide that distinguishes it from the other two arenas? I’m not seeing it, and I’m certainly not feeling it.

“Is it just me or are those two waypoints in the south permanently contested?”

The new rules of White Swords are that any guard agro will trigger white swords, even if all the guards do is going into their defensive blocking posture while you run past.

Also, there is a bug where enemy guards can spawn inside your stuff. A Veteran Tengu Archer contested our Earth Keep for several hours yesterday.

Fannwong.3059:

Hello Jdallen,

But I think Anet will do what they do and look at metrics.

I am guessing that 100% WvWers are a small subset of GW2 players.

The metrics are rigged because guilds cannot play 100% WvW and get their guild halls and hall upgrades. PvP guilds can’t either, by the way.

Fannwong.3059:

Hello Cogbyrn,

I only WvW, so even when my guild does GMs I don’t go because I do not like PVE, I like fighting real people. My fractal is only lvl 1, I tried it for 20min and dropped the raid because I couldn’t take the boredom.

I spend about 80% of my WvW in borderlands vs EBG. I do not fight for karma, gold nor the loot because I have my ascended weapons and armor. I have been kindly supported by my guild [SOX] officers for siege and the like. I work with 5-20 realm mates in WvW usually. I fight to kill enemies, destroy structures, get PPT.

I communicate in TS and private chats with smaller groups like scouts, skirmishers and roamers for knocking off yaks, scouting and tapping keeps across 2 or 3 maps including EBG.

I tried the new maps every day since it came out. I did not buy HoT because I am running a frontline guardian about 99% of the time so DH didn’t interest me.

I was in the new post-HoT WvW for 100% of the time that I was logged on. Tried the paths, etc.

There are many issues at hand with the new borderlands, I will highlight a few that bothered me in T1 (just me, I don’t presume to speak for anybody else in the same tier or other tiers. I recognise that each tier has different population density in WvW and this changes gameplay).

1. Automatic Upgrades – This is a big issue. When I raid either with 5 or 20, I make it a point to break structures when the opportunity arises. As the old upgrades were made by real people, breaking structures makes me feel like I’ve accomplished against the enemy something when I finally take the structure. When I take part or lead defence of our fortified/reinforced keep, it feels good because I’ve helped my realm mates who worked as a team taking hours to upgrade and siege the structure with love and care.

Having automatic upgrades robs the incentive to defend and attack. I felt that by breaking a structure I wasn’t fighting against a human enemy because it was done automatically.

2. WP Changes – WP is a projection of power way beyond the keep, almost 1/3 of the old BL map. This is key in upgrading a keep. Taking a WP deals a serious blow to the enemy and it affects the strategic play in the map. Taking a WP also deals a big blow to enemy morale. Having 3 WPs in a our borderland meant that the borderland was in our control, it’s like having a homeland secured. We even had folks who were dedicated to homeland defence.

When the WP on left and right keep went missing, it changed the map considerably. On a strategic level, it changed the thought process and way that we could defend it. It became very hard for a small population to defend the homeland. Losing east/west keep wasn’t so important because no WP meant that the south was hard to contain anyway. Btw, even in T1, WvW population can drop very dramatically in off peak so much so that home BL can only muster 10+ folks sometimes.

3. Fortified Doors – This discourages 5 man teams to take a fortified structure, with fortified doors the structure did not have a weakness. Reinforced gates in fortified structures gave small groups a fighting chance to break it.

4. Map Size & Complexity – This is very subjective, for me it felt the map was made with numerous alternatives to approach an objective. This would be great if we had a huge population like launch time but with a smaller pop it’s very hard to find fights or drop an ambush.

Overall, I feel that a combination of these factors plus others have made me stop loving and playing WvW.

FW

Wow, ask and you shall receive. Thank you Fannwong for this clearly-stated, high-quality criticism (and thank you to the others who have been submitting similar criticism). I have renewed hope in this thread.

Selwynn.2758:

Any event in which I fight non player mobs to drop pieces of loot that I then carry to a Non-player character in order to get a reward of a non-player action in which a giant automatic lazer does damage is more than reasonably called “PvE.” It doesn’t matter that others players might show up to this event. The event does not depend on any opposing players to show up, and can be completed solo. I know, because I did it.

Gotcha, but when you fight a non-player object (walls, gates) so that you can gain access to a non-player mob to fight (keep/tower lord), and then you stand in a non-player circle for a certain amount of time, that’s not PvE? This is the crux of my complaint with your continued use of “PvE” as term of criticism. Perhaps I’m not explaining well, but you clearly aren’t understanding me. Taking a tower or keep doesn’t depend on opposing players showing up either. Why is the oasis event PvE, but the process of taking a tower or keep not PvE? I’m assuming that you don’t believe taking a keep is PvE, because otherwise — given your distaste for PvE — I would expect you wouldn’t be playing WvW in the first place.

OK, you don’t think I’m using the term PvE correctly. Fine. So I will make up a new term to name what I am talking about. I shall call it Doober vs. Flumpy (or DvF) Since I’m making the term, you can’t come back and tell me I defined it wrong.

This is real cute, but perhaps you could start with flat out defining what you mean by “PvE” when you’re using it as a term of criticism. You sort of define it above, but again, you’ll have to explain why your definition applies to the oasis event and not to taking towers and keeps. Especially given that enemy players can significantly interfere with both activities.

(2) I also don’t like the gimmicky (my opinion, other’s disagree) environmental effects in the zone. Any time the landscape and environment becomes its own “character” in a WvW zone (when the land can rise up and block you with rock walls, or winds knock you down, or dust stealths you, or portals are set up like mazes, or the landscape is complex enough to create travel funnels or barriers to direct access) I hate it. I don’t want to battle the environment (in this case literally the environment) I want to battle other players.

I’ve written this in every post I’ve made and you’ve ignored it and said I only care about oasis in ever response you’ve made.

I actually wrote a whole post responding to this specific point of yours. You seem to have missed it, here’s the direct link:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/WvW-has-been-my-life-for-3-Years-HoT-Review/page/2#post5729179

Yeah it’s dead now. People keep saying “don’t worry, players will come back in a month or two” but I don’t know why. Right now I have to go to EotM for action because that’s the only map I can find any players in. WvW is dead until proven otherwise.

Hello Chaba,

Apologies, I wasn’t clear when I mentioned metrics. I meant metrics since launch, not only post HOT.

FW

Chaba.5410:

Fannwong.3059:

Hello Jdallen,

But I think Anet will do what they do and look at metrics.

I am guessing that 100% WvWers are a small subset of GW2 players.

The metrics are rigged because guilds cannot play 100% WvW and get their guild halls and hall upgrades. PvP guilds can’t either, by the way.

Fannwong.3059:

Hello Chaba,

Apologies, I wasn’t clear when I mentioned metrics. I meant metrics since launch, not only post HOT.

FW

Chaba.5410:

Fannwong.3059:

Hello Jdallen,

But I think Anet will do what they do and look at metrics.

I am guessing that 100% WvWers are a small subset of GW2 players.

The metrics are rigged because guilds cannot play 100% WvW and get their guild halls and hall upgrades. PvP guilds can’t either, by the way.

Even since launch, it’s been near impossible to get everything from WvW. You want ascended armor? Struggle to get it in WvW for months or farm PvE for a week. Want ascended trinkets and whatnot? Do guild missions or wait till you get laurels. Early in the game’s release, finishing dailies required you to leave WvW. Want to try a new build? Gotta go to PvE to get easy gold. Want to get some exclusive sigils and runes? PvE. Want some exclusive stats (eg: Sinister, Viper’s)? Go to PvE.

Never have you been able to solely WvW.

Melanion.4892:

Fannwong.3059:

Hello Chaba,

Apologies, I wasn’t clear when I mentioned metrics. I meant metrics since launch, not only post HOT.

FW

Chaba.5410:

Fannwong.3059:

Hello Jdallen,

But I think Anet will do what they do and look at metrics.

I am guessing that 100% WvWers are a small subset of GW2 players.

The metrics are rigged because guilds cannot play 100% WvW and get their guild halls and hall upgrades. PvP guilds can’t either, by the way.

Even since launch, it’s been near impossible to get everything from WvW. You want ascended armor? Struggle to get it in WvW for months or farm PvE for a week. Want ascended trinkets and whatnot? Do guild missions or wait till you get laurels. Early in the game’s release, finishing dailies required you to leave WvW. Want to try a new build? Gotta go to PvE to get easy gold. Want to get some exclusive sigils and runes? PvE. Want some exclusive stats (eg: Sinister, Viper’s)? Go to PvE.

Never have you been able to solely WvW.

Basically what he said. XD

I still run with mostly exotics. I do guild missions and get laurels for ascended trinkets. I finally made an ascended hammer a few months ago. Only ever had four pieces of ascended armor from drops which finally I can change the stats on.

HoT is the most PvE I’ve played in a long time. I don’t want to get left so far behind everyone else again.

Selwynn.2758:

Ivarr Wolfsong.2986:

I totally agree with the OP ( Percival <3 <3 <3 ).

OMG I was on Percival as well! MIDGARD!!

Midgard also (Ravensflyte and Siol Lear). Now I want to go watch the Flash movie “Dem Hibbies”…

Back OT – I don’t understand what they were thinking when they rolled this out for testing. Its a maze with pve and a smidge of wvw.

Ivarr Wolfsong.2986:

Now I want to go watch the Flash movie “Dem Hibbies”…

The ancient Hibernian glares at you.

And stay out of Emain.

Selwynn.2758:

I have played GW2 since beta, and I’ve been on a single server – through thick and thin – since beta. I’m also 38 which also seems relevant as context for my perspective………

From one old fart to another, you spoke out of my heart.

/sign

What they did to wvw is disheartening and heartbreaking :|