Guild Wars 2

This is also why everyone now floods to EB.

I spent about 10 minutes going from my homeworld BL keep WP to a shrine on the west side. I was above it, but could find no reasonable way down that was nearby, no matter where I looked. It was the most unobvious thing I’ve ever seen, and all I wanted to do was jack a shrine as a solo roamer.

I ended up just going to the sPvP lobby instead, since I wanted to practice fighting players (which I don’t see in WvW yet).

I’m definitely concerned something long-term is wrong with the design.

@Selwynn

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallelujah

We share a similar WvW player profile.

WvW players will return in a month or two, but only the top tier worlds will probably enjoy the Full WvW experience.

Be prepared for chronic long term server stacking problems indefinitely.

There isn’t anything on the market that can compete for this game mode with no monthly fee.

I’ll grade D+ because over time…they did their homework & turned it in. The work was done incredibly well, but didn’t answer any of the who, what, when, where, and why of the assignment.

Hmm…it’s like a man walks into a tailor…asks for clothes…and after 3 years…is given a beautiful wedding dress.

WvW Community will return…

Sad too

@DomAltares

Thank you for posting this…I’d like to share this with Selwynn.

Shocking interview with Anet WvW developer
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/external?l=https%3A%2F%2Fyoutu.be%2FezVy-zLUq6g

Laugh with me…and don’t cry…we’ll learn to like the new WvW game mode. What else can we do?

They should fire all game developers of this wvw and hire you for senior developer, i tottaly agree with your points

New map = ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ snore

I played gw2 since headstart and after 2 weeks i discovered wvw and never looked back at pve again.
it was soo much fun to run with my guild around and either bust zergs or ninja keeps and towers or even engaging in hour long sieging just to finally get our hills back for example.
we had the whole server having meeting and distributing jobs between guilds. like the big guilds would concentrate on capping, fighting guilds would keep enemy zergs busy , small guilds would create distractions by ninja attempts and camp capping to prevent enemy from upgrading and other guilds would concentrate on home borderland to upgrade and siege refreshing.

the new map and eotm both do not fit that concept as they are too complex and the keeps dont feel like a keep or a castle as they are to ai driven and to complex again.

in wvw less is more and simple is better due to lag and also because the players design this game mode not the ai. automated upgrades , the pve laser event the massive horde of pve mobs, the vertical map(which favors stability classes, the ai traps and all that not only lag the map out, it also hurts this game mode more than it helps. if it was like a new eotm map, i’d say that ok, but not for the competitive wvw part.

please anet watch all the videos of guilds posting and reread our constructive posts where we did explain clearly what we wanted for a new map. LESS is more and SIMPLE FLAT maps are better and LITTLE TO NO PVE!!!

Selwynn.2758:

This is also why everyone now floods to EB.

That was happening before the new map too though….

A bit melodramatic, no?

Also, I don’t get how you’re all griping about PvE. I see mobs about as often as on the old BL and fight them less. The only time I fight a mob is during the Oasis event and they’re just a side dish to the enemy players I’m trying to maim/murder.

The BLs are also not that hard to get around, especially if you own the structures. If I could record, I’d make a tour video or something. They’re definitely confusing at the outset, but it gets better.

Tonight, we ran with 5-10 people in T2 on an enemy BL. We managed to take a couple of towers and a keep. Several keeps, technically, but never both at the same time. We had plenty of fights with a couple of different groups from both other servers. Most of them outnumbered us (~15 people) but it wasn’t so bad that we couldn’t at least put on a good show. We had some moments where we got slightly lost. We had to contend with defenders at almost every objective. We defended a few things when we had the chance. All in all, it was exactly what I look for in a WvW raid.

The changes are god awful, I still haven’t played on a new map because there’s never anyone there. No player Damage on doors is stupidity, I’ve never been one for PvD but if that was the concern then damage should have been reduced instead of this abomination.

WvW ranks, LOL just LOL. There is nothing to invest in, everything is so easy to obtain now.

So when exactly is this " As work on Heart of Thorns wraps up, we’ll be treating resolving the remaining core areas in WvW as our #1 live development feature priority for the game to ensure we deliver on making World vs. World not just the great experience it is today – but the incredible experience we know it can be" suppose to start ?

Dear god please consult your WvW players, you have managed to butcher WvW in one foul swoop. It’s not even that I personally hate the new maps, there’s just no one on them in T4 which makes me assume that they really are just that bad.

I honestly don’t see myself or many other of my WvW friends that have played WvW from release sticking around all that much longer. It’s saddening that Anet doesn’t seem to know what we want and what would make this mode thrive.

Random.4691:

The changes are god awful, I still haven’t played on a new map because there’s never anyone there. No player Damage on doors is stupidity, I’ve never been one for PvD but if that was the concern then damage should have been reduced instead of this abomination.

WvW ranks, LOL just LOL. There is nothing to invest in, everything is so easy to obtain now.

So when exactly is this " As work on Heart of Thorns wraps up, we’ll be treating resolving the remaining core areas in WvW as our #1 live development feature priority for the game to ensure we deliver on making World vs. World not just the great experience it is today – but the incredible experience we know it can be" suppose to start ?

Dear god please consult your WvW players, you have managed to butcher WvW in one foul swoop. It’s not even that I personally hate the new maps, there’s just no one on them in T4 which makes me assume that they really are just that bad.

I honestly don’t see myself or many other of my WvW friends that have played WvW from release sticking around all that much longer. It’s saddening that Anet doesn’t seem to know what we want and what would make this mode thrive.

For the record, no one has actually managed to get that no PvD upgrade yet. You may want to hold your complaints until it actually starts showing up in game.

I wvw fairly frequently. Rank 2265, mostly roaming in groups of 2-5 or going around with groups of 15-20. I only ktrain when I’m incredibly bored.

I actually like the new map. It’s a welcome change, the only trouble is nobody wants to be there. There are plenty of opportunities to play with the environment to beat people while outnumbered. Worst part is that nobody is there to fight. My roaming buddy and I spent about 2 hours on the borderland last Saturday and Sunday, then again this Friday, each time during NA prime. The fights were actually fun. Terrifying fights on the ledges in the southeast. Only thing I could ask for is more people to play on the map, whether it be a zerg or roamers. It’s a great map for a smart zerg and even better for roaming.

Tl;dr: don’t write off the new map so quickly. Learn the map. Play the map. When there are more people on the map, it’s going to be more fun. As it is, it’s fun when people are playing.

Very similar views from Selwynn and myself. Having played around 8500 hours GW2 and 95% of that in WvW, I know exactly what you mean. Sure we moan and gripe about wanting changes, but when those changes happen we would like to appear to have been listened to.

Personally all they needed to do for this vet to be happy was a small redesign of Alpine Borders which would have saved them alot of time and many unhappy wvwers.

All that really needed doing would have been:

1: Bring back and fix our much loved Orbs.
2: Increase map size by 10-15% and remove pve mobs.
3: Some new textures.

Alot less work than these new borders and likely to have brought a little more praise.

All that qq all the time, you people should join a drama club. Even some in my guild, it ruins the fun of wvw more then the maps it self.

Instead of running in for 10 minutes and saying its kitten, at least try to find your way through the map. In the old maps were also pve stuff. The spiderqueen for example, a jumpingpuzzle, etc.

The layout of the map is amazing and fights can be everywhere. As this weekend have shown, the zone blobs are still there.

Only issue for me is the amount of bugs, lag, delays, skill lag and disconnects. Yesterday it was pretty unplayable.

Honestly the new map is fine. Finding fights will be easy with the revealed from sentries and guild claiming advertising locations on the maps. The only problem I see with the maps is the waypoint system means that there is no objective actually worth defending, so there is no guaranteed fight anywhere. Before if you hit garry, people would show up 100% of the time, now I am not so sure.

I spent 2 months in PvE then found WvW. That was almost exactly 3 years ago .. and im worried. I don’t mind learning a new map but, we got a big problem if they’re too confusing and big to attract new players and, keep them on the map.

I hoped this opportunity would give us a chance to grow the game .. for me it starts with the build, then the strategy and coordination, hundreds of real people playing roamers, guilds, scouts and havoc squads lining up against another server on a TS channel … that was my WvWvW and when a server is playing all 4 maps, its a beautiful thing.

I’ve been leveling my Necro and Mez, checking out the map ( echo … echo.. ). I hope everyone will come back, I think of all the builds we want to try out, new armor and weapons, the new skills I want to use in WvW. I can already beat the boss in PvE why would I bother collecting all that kitten without WvW .. right?

Biggest problem now is how to play these maps? They are very big and its a long way between WP’s. I cant see how to defend this much area with 5 ppl overnight. Face it, with out defenders, it gets very boring indeed !

We need the servers re-shuffled and soon, but most important we need Home Servers, with out it there is no defenders and no WvW. I would like them to open up the US/EU divide and let us have proper 24h gaming. And we need something to fight for, Server Rank, Server PPT, Server PPK .. I don’t care as long as the numbers work .. please.

The maps .. we can manage .. but the only NPC’s on a WvW map should be guards. Ok, environment you can keep .. but NO .. repeat NO…. jumping puzzles!

The original poster summarizes my feelings well. Arenanet WvWvW developers have been out of the touch with the WvWvW players already for several years. They have vision what WvWvW players “want”, but that is not what the majority wants. They did incredibly over complex map, which has crazy amount of gimmicks. Now all these drastic changes are alienating the core players. Even Eternal Battlegrounds is less fun due the auto upgrades.

The developers sometimes listen to us, but often cherry pick the worst ideas from these forums. The balance issues have remained more or less untouched for years, except the recent welcome changes: removal of bloodlust and the condition duration food nerfs. We could have had both with the old maps.

Arenanet should hire some senior talent to develop WvWvW and start real communication. One dev post per week isn’t communication: it is a slap on paying customer’s face. I am talking about long intelligent posts, with future vision, admitting mistakes and discussing the weaknesses of the current system.

In the meanwhile, please give us the old maps back + just double the rewards from each kill/capping objective. This alone will bring a lot of WvWvW players back. Now each week waiting for players to “adjust and adopt” will just permanently bleed the player base to other games. Some will be gone for good.

Deniara Devious.3948:

Arenanet should hire some senior talent to develop WvWvW and start real communication. One dev post per week isn’t communication: it is a slap on paying customer’s face. I am talking about long intelligent posts, with future vision, admitting mistakes and discussing the weaknesses of the current system.

You bought the ability to play GW2, not the ability to lead the design vision of the game. You’re along for the ride, and any communication whatsoever from the developer should be an absolute joy and privilege. If they posted their vision, a group would yell at them. Any vision. It doesn’t matter. If it was exactly your vision, people would still yell at them, berate them, demand they change it, threaten to stop playing, etc.

I’m going to commit more time to learning the maps, I just really wanted some experience against the other classes, and spending 10 minutes getting to an NPC shrine wasn’t the ticket that night. I’ll be curious to see how WvW unfolds in the next few months.

Have to say that it’s a big +1 to the OP from me as well.

I couldn’t agree more with the OP. I hope Crowfall turns out to be good

Chaba.5410:

Selwynn.2758:

This is also why everyone now floods to EB.

That was happening before the new map too though….

old BL sort of sucked but in hindsight we all loved it compared to what we have now.

The OP summarizes my thoughts as well. I was originally excited about new BL maps, hoping it would reinvigorate WvW and in particular improve upon the Alpine BL experience, not kill it. The community is clearly rejecting the changes. WvW activity is down significantly and every player I have conversed with regarding the changes have expressed dismay and are rarely playing any longer. They either play PVP or no longer login.

Saleen Jso.2645:

The community is clearly rejecting the changes. WvW activity is down significantly and every player I have conversed with regarding the changes have expressed dismay and are rarely playing any longer. They either play PVP or no longer login.

Knee-jerk reactions are what gamers do best when it comes to change. Also, sweeping generalizations must be in season, because everyone is speaking on behalf of “everyone”. Those are are really rejecting the changes are the vocal minority who are frustrated enough to log into forums to complain. Many others are just doing Halloween/expansion content.

EDIT – Forgot the second part. Even after profuse complaining, many people will eventually come back and tool around. sPvP just doesn’t provide the experience you’re looking for when you are a WvWer, so though it is shiny and chrome right now, the pull will happen eventually.

I’ve been playing WvW since Beta for GW2, and I can honestly say I do not prefer the new maps at all. There are to many pve elements, and to many routes which cause groups to avoid fighting one another.

If I want PvE I could go to the PVE maps, if I wanted small fights I could do those with GvG or in sPvP.

What I enjoyed about WvW is the large scale fighting and how the maps used to cause people to work together as a server to win a match. You had people who would scout non stop, run upgrades, escort dolyaks, snipe yaks from enemies, call out enemy movement, siege a location up, defend, attack an objective, ect… The teamwork was one of the best parts of wvw.

Now we have a new map few go in much. Upgrades are automatic (Which I think there still needs to be “player” interaction, not just have them automatically start…) There are so many routs, that the scouting and fighting is basically negated. The new maps are NOT friendly to new WvW’ers by any means. The Old BL’s were a much simpler way for newer WvW’ers to log in, see someone, and run to them in a timely manner. The new BL is not designed to be friendly to newer players to WvW.

While the new BL map has nice graphics, it needs changed a lot for WvW. I understand players wanted a new map, however I don’t think anyone asked for more PvE in a serious tone, nor one which negated many fights. I have no issues with upgrades costing a player nothing to run, I do have issues with them being automatic. (I think the system should just have been tweaked to remove the gold cost from upgrades.) There’s a lot that can be changed, and hopefully Anet will start responding and speaking with the WvW player base to change WvW for the better.

White Knight Apologist:

Knee-jerk reactions are what gamers do best when it comes to change. Also, sweeping generalizations must be in season, because everyone is speaking on behalf of “everyone”. Those are are really rejecting the changes are the vocal minority who are frustrated enough to log into forums to complain. Many others are just doing Halloween/expansion content.

EDIT – Forgot the second part. Even after profuse complaining, many people will eventually come back and tool around. sPvP just doesn’t provide the experience you’re looking for when you are a WvWer, so though it is shiny and chrome right now, the pull will happen eventually.

No, they won’t. They’ll go to CU as soon as it hits beta or some other RvR. WvW fanatics don’t just suddenly become PvE enthusiasts because the same tired Halloween event returns.

What PvE are people speaking of?

NPCs and mobs are as numerous as ever, exception is some of them are a lot more annoying.

The only event I haven’t seen is the big middle of the map event and I’m fairly certain the enemy players are the main people to contend with not some tequatl sized dragon. Well unless you guys are fighting the magic dragon in which case put down what you’re smoking, we found your problem.

So much drama, can’t wait for you all to leave.

The WvW maps are to bloated ….

Towers should be at support routes and running ways. From towers you shoud have a good sight and range for sige weapons supporting keeps in defence or even offence.
Running in layers and endless ways to get somwere kills the game.
First impression. Playability is abyssal compared to the old maps.
And that laser thing is unitresting/not fitting.
On one side I like the stairs and the subterran grounds, but its a pain running around.

Suggestion:
Remove the laser.

The map is so large, you can split it in two with a bit layout design.

Then you do the following:
There are three sides. So give each a diffrent map by spliting the desert/oasis map.

1) Jungle(oasis) /underground mix with earth/fire shrines.
2.) Desert setup with air shrines but no underground layer.
3.) The old alpine map with ruins.

Now you have diversity and very diffrent and more playable maps. I would say players would be pleased.

msalakka.4653:

White Knight Apologist:

Knee-jerk reactions are what gamers do best when it comes to change. Also, sweeping generalizations must be in season, because everyone is speaking on behalf of “everyone”. Those are are really rejecting the changes are the vocal minority who are frustrated enough to log into forums to complain. Many others are just doing Halloween/expansion content.

EDIT – Forgot the second part. Even after profuse complaining, many people will eventually come back and tool around. sPvP just doesn’t provide the experience you’re looking for when you are a WvWer, so though it is shiny and chrome right now, the pull will happen eventually.

No, they won’t. They’ll go to CU as soon as it hits beta or some other RvR. WvW fanatics don’t just suddenly become PvE enthusiasts because the same tired Halloween event returns.

Yeah, that is what everyone said about elder scrolls online too.

msalakka.4653:

White Knight Apologist:

Knee-jerk reactions are what gamers do best when it comes to change. Also, sweeping generalizations must be in season, because everyone is speaking on behalf of “everyone”. Those are are really rejecting the changes are the vocal minority who are frustrated enough to log into forums to complain. Many others are just doing Halloween/expansion content.

EDIT – Forgot the second part. Even after profuse complaining, many people will eventually come back and tool around. sPvP just doesn’t provide the experience you’re looking for when you are a WvWer, so though it is shiny and chrome right now, the pull will happen eventually.

No, they won’t. They’ll go to CU as soon as it hits beta or some other RvR. WvW fanatics don’t just suddenly become PvE enthusiasts because the same tired Halloween event returns.

Lmao, very nice touch changing the name. Maybe some people just get angry when children throw tantrums in public.

And MMOers are always advertised as about to leave a game for some new upcoming game. Heck, people have a “Countdown to 0 subs” timer for WoW, because everyone just loves the idea of an MMO that doesn’t 100% fit their ideas perfectly in every way dying horribly so no one else can enjoy it.

Selwynn.2758:

I have played GW2 since beta, and I’ve been on a single server – through thick and thin – since beta. I’m also 38 which also seems relevant as context for my perspective.

Former DAoC player, WvW (or realm vs. realm as us old farts used to know it) has been my gaming life. For over a decade I went from MMO to MMO trying to find one that would replicate the joy I found in DAoC. For me, Guild Wars 2 did that.

And HoT has utterly trashed WvW and thrown it in the toilet.

My review is pretty simple, here is how the new BLs fail and will mark the death knell for WvW unless something very drastic is done. I know of not a SINGLE person who considers WvW they’re primary interest who would ever – EVER – ask for more PvE in their WvW. Not one.

And yet, not only has PvE “events” of various types been jammed into the new BLs all over the place, but the thing that has the most power to influence events in the BLs is a PvE event that happens every three hours. The big crescendo, the big “feature” of WvW BLs is now a PvE gather quest.

This design shows that Anet has absolutely no idea why WvWers do what they do. If you primarily PvE, and only occasionally go out to WvW for some off time, you aren’t looking for PvE in your WvW either. You’ll go to every other part of the game to get that – done better. But if you WvW as your main gameplay, its because PvE isn’t what you are really looking for in a game. Now non-player activities are the defining feature of BLs.

The second total failure is the utter GIMMICKY nature of BLs. All of the gimmicks are of pveish variety as well. Sandstorms, pve control points that grant different global environmental effects, cute little maze little portal hops and on and on. None of this makes for quality WvW of either large or small scale.

The final failure is in map layout design itself. These are some of the most over-designed maps I’ve ever experienced. If the intent was to eliminate large blob open field fights, Anet might have partially succeeded, but only due to making the BLs total ghost towns. WvW has been and will always be, a home for large force battles. Yup. That’s why WvW is WvW. Yes, sometimes we all complain when one server feels like they have a map blog three times as big as ours, or at times when we want to have small group skirmishes, but all we can find are large zergs roaming about.

But the truth is – we whine – but don’t want that fixed. At least not like you have done – by introducing more PvE and more gimmicks into WvW. Zergs are part of WvW. We complain sometimes, and then we love them and join in on the action other times. They can be a problem, but they are also a natural and unavoidable consequence of WvW done RIGHT. You can’t fix numbers imbalance by map engineering. My old fart WvW relics and I have a saying: “Find PvP solutions to PvP problems.”

You’ve made PvE maps confusing and tedious to navigate, floored them with gimmicks, and increased the PvE in them to biblical proportions…. And now no one goes there. I usually try hard to be at least a little balanced in reviews. But I honestly give WvW int he HoT expansion a true “F.”

Sad.

This.
Exactly my thoughts.
Nothing to add.

They had the chance to revive the declining wvw part of gw2 and failed utterly by creating a disgusting mixture of edge of the mists and silverwastes.

I hope they will reimplement the old maps when they realize how empty the borderlands are nowadays …

Agree with the OP 100%, addresses all of my concerns about the new BL. Couldn’t have put it better myself.

Well said sir.

Selwynn.2758:

My review is pretty simple, here is how the new BLs fail and will mark the death knell for WvW unless something very drastic is done. I know of not a SINGLE person who considers WvW they’re primary interest who would ever – EVER – ask for more PvE in their WvW. Not one.

What more PvE? I see this complaint thrown around so much, yet I highly doubt everyone means the same thing when they say it.

Your entire post is one giant disorganized complaint. You make a direct reference to the oasis event, and then you sort of complain about shrines. That’s it. That’s what you call “increasing the PvE to biblical proportions”. Holy drama batman. Next time try attacking those two issues directly instead of making me wade through the TL;DR morass that was your post.

And map layout design itself is not PvE. I don’t care how complex the map is. It is the “E” in which PvP takes place. You can complain all you want that the map is too complicated. I disagree. Whatever. But saying that making a map design more complex is “too much PvE” is ridiculous. That doesn’t even make any sense. How could you possibly measure the amount of PvE in a map’s design? What do you do, count all the cliffs? There certainly aren’t any more random mobs in the new BLs compared to the old ones, so you can’t possibly be talking about that. If the new maps make you walk farther, that’s too much PvE, is that it? For crying out loud, at least be more specific with your complaints instead of this random, generic whining.

Sometimes I wonder why I bother with this forum.

BrickFurious.7169:

Selwynn.2758:

My review is pretty simple, here is how the new BLs fail and will mark the death knell for WvW unless something very drastic is done. I know of not a SINGLE person who considers WvW they’re primary interest who would ever – EVER – ask for more PvE in their WvW. Not one.

What more PvE? I see this complaint thrown around so much, yet I highly doubt everyone means the same thing when they say it.

Your entire post is one giant disorganized complaint. You make a direct reference to the oasis event, and then you sort of complain about shrines. That’s it. That’s what you call “increasing the PvE to biblical proportions”. Holy drama batman. Next time try attacking those two issues directly instead of making me wade through the TL;DR morass that was your post.

And map layout design itself is not PvE. I don’t care how complex the map is. It is the “E” in which PvP takes place. You can complain all you want that the map is too complicated. I disagree. Whatever. But saying that making a map design more complex is “too much PvE” is ridiculous. That doesn’t even make any sense. How could you possibly measure the amount of PvE in a map’s design? What do you do, count all the cliffs? There certainly aren’t any more random mobs in the new BLs compared to the old ones, so you can’t possibly be talking about that. If the new maps make you walk farther, that’s too much PvE, is that it? For crying out loud, at least be more specific with your complaints instead of this random, generic whining.

Sometimes I wonder why I bother with this forum.

If I applauded as hard as I want to, I would probably break my hands.

Thanks for that.

BrickFurious.7169:

What more PvE? I see this complaint thrown around so much, yet I highly doubt everyone means the same thing when they say it.

Your entire post is one giant disorganized complaint. You make a direct reference to the oasis event, and then you sort of complain about shrines. That’s it. That’s what you call “increasing the PvE to biblical proportions”. Holy drama batman. Next time try attacking those two issues directly instead of making me wade through the TL;DR morass that was your post.

And map layout design itself is not PvE. I don’t care how complex the map is. It is the “E” in which PvP takes place. You can complain all you want that the map is too complicated. I disagree. Whatever. But saying that making a map design more complex is “too much PvE” is ridiculous. That doesn’t even make any sense. How could you possibly measure the amount of PvE in a map’s design? What do you do, count all the cliffs? There certainly aren’t any more random mobs in the new BLs compared to the old ones, so you can’t possibly be talking about that. If the new maps make you walk farther, that’s too much PvE, is that it? For crying out loud, at least be more specific with your complaints instead of this random, generic whining.

Sometimes I wonder why I bother with this forum.

So why do you bother, if your only contribution is to attack the person and their method of complaining instead of the issues they raised. It isn’t that hard to get the gist of what that person is saying.

Selwynn.2758:

I know of not a SINGLE person who considers WvW they’re primary interest who would ever – EVER – ask for more PvE in their WvW. Not one.

It’s time to meet me I guess, I actually like that they added more ‘PvE’ events as everyone is calling them. Maybe this is because I enjoy playing WvW more along the style of Open World PvP (came from a WoW PvP server and had fun ganking people all the time). These new ‘PvE’ events draw players together and encourage fights, the larger distance between objectives means players can’t just run and hide in the nearest tower. I love the idea of an even that is ‘super strong’ like the oasis event (not sure I like the gate/wall damage though) that is designed to draw in large open field fights, what everyone has been asking for (for the larger groups). Way back when they added siegrazor I loved the idea and ever wondered if more ‘PvE’ events like this would appear. It’s nice the map is so open and allowed players to go where they want and take what they want. What WvW really needs if people want to see more fights, is some sort of ‘event’ or objective that players want to fight for or around. If there was no ‘PvE’ (no objectives, no events, no goals) and static maps you would get just flat open space with not much activity on it. The ‘PvE’ is what brings two servers together and brings the fights. I’m sorry that you don’t enjoy the new maps, I personally am looking forward when more people start to play them and embrace that they aren’t going anywhere anytime soon. Already had a few good small 5v5 fights and larger 20v20 fights on the map, just as fun as the last one.

BrickFurious.7169:

What more PvE? I see this complaint thrown around so much….{snip}

Look an honest examination of the new borderlands reveals a sort of obsessive fixation with Z-axis tech that Anet brought out with the HoT maguma maps. It’s fantastic in the PvE maps, and gliding is genius, but it’s simply out of hand in the new borderlands map. That, and clearly aesthetics trumped all other design considerations. It’s in the guild halls too, massive areas, but the Arena, the really functional part of guild halls is too small by at least 25%, but a 100% increase is really what’s needed. There is no focus on the core gameplay of WvW, the new maps are at least 50% gimmick (and I think I am being generous here)
Play devil’s advocate and support Anet all you want, that’s fine, but EotM, and now this new borderlands clearly show Anet’s tin ear to what the WvW community need and their lack of understanding how WvW works for serious guilds. I have no doubt that they will continue to “tell” us how WvW should be played, regardless of the obvious fact that NONE of the devs are serious WvW players and none of them are willing to admit that they don’t understand the game mode very well.

cillard.3986:

So why do you bother, if your only contribution is to attack the person and their method of complaining instead of the issues they raised. It isn’t that hard to get the gist of what that person is saying.

I think he’s saying that the issue that was raised is not clearly defined. He takes issue with the ‘more PvE’ claim because he doesn’t see any evidence to substantiate it. Neither do I.

So about the HOT changes, new and old maps alike:

1. The servers are lagging in fights far worse than they did prior to the xpac. This applies to both the new maps and EB equally, and makes the game unplayable large fights because none of your buttons respond. This is a game breaking problem.

The new maps specifically:

1. They are too big. The levels and layers make the maps not just ‘large’, but greatly so. If the servers and code could handle more players, this may be a nonissue. Unfortunately, the game is performing far worse than it used to, so adding even more players into the mix to ‘fill’ the map isn’t currently viable. Also, this does nothing to solve the problem on less active, lower tier servers.

2. They are too convoluted. Too many twists, turns, and elevation changes. Some of this can be attributed to learning the new maps, but even after spending extensive time in beta and post xpac launch, my opinion on this has not changed. Perhaps allowing gliders in WvW would solve some of this? Can’t say without testing.

3. Too many gimmicks. The concept fueling the implementation of these gimmicks is sounds, unfortunately its was flawed from the very beginning in their design. Splitting up forces and fights to reduce the blobs is still a great concept, but introducing all of the buffs and debuffs just makes the game more frustrating to play.

4. The super laser PvE event. Looks, this PvE even can be fun as hell when you have three sides fighting for it and you can actually hit buttons and have them fire off abilities. Unfortunately forcing action into one place in a map you designed to split people up is more than a bit counterproductive. It is a really neat idea, but the game just can’t handle all those people in one place at the moment. IF you can work our the server lag problems it may be kinda of cool if you can work out the timing of the event to correspond to some metric regarding server peak times.

5. The keeps…… god these are absolutely beautiful. Whoever did the artwork did an amazing job on them. From a play standpoint, not so good. The gimmicks (god the stupid overkill on gimmicky crap!), size, and defensibility are all problems.

6. The chests and scrolls. The chests should stack in inventory and remain account bound. The notarized scrolls should be made account bound. Tyler said the chests being account bound were a bug and it would be fixed. This would be a huge huge mistake.

7. Autoloot. Enable autoloot in WvW and make it purchasable from WvW points and not masteries. Nobody wants to freaking grind masteries in PvE just to be able to do something they should have always been able to do from the beginning in a game. Seriously, it is just archaic in modern gaming to make you loot bags off the ground.

8. Speaking of loot bags ….why do I still see everyone else’s freaking loot bags on the ground. Fix that kitten already.

cillard.3986:

BrickFurious.7169:

What more PvE? I see this complaint thrown around so much, yet I highly doubt everyone means the same thing when they say it.

Your entire post is one giant disorganized complaint. You make a direct reference to the oasis event, and then you sort of complain about shrines. That’s it. That’s what you call “increasing the PvE to biblical proportions”. Holy drama batman. Next time try attacking those two issues directly instead of making me wade through the TL;DR morass that was your post.

And map layout design itself is not PvE. I don’t care how complex the map is. It is the “E” in which PvP takes place. You can complain all you want that the map is too complicated. I disagree. Whatever. But saying that making a map design more complex is “too much PvE” is ridiculous. That doesn’t even make any sense. How could you possibly measure the amount of PvE in a map’s design? What do you do, count all the cliffs? There certainly aren’t any more random mobs in the new BLs compared to the old ones, so you can’t possibly be talking about that. If the new maps make you walk farther, that’s too much PvE, is that it? For crying out loud, at least be more specific with your complaints instead of this random, generic whining.

Sometimes I wonder why I bother with this forum.

So why do you bother, if your only contribution is to attack the person and their method of complaining instead of the issues they raised. It isn’t that hard to get the gist of what that person is saying.

Because I don’t actually know what the OP is complaining about. His entire post boils down to “too much PvE” (he repeats it over and over). The gist I’m getting is that he doesn’t like the new map because it’s too complex, and he doesn’t like shrines and the oasis event. Why doesn’t he like shrines and the oasis event? Because it’s “too much PvE”. I have nothing to go off there. I can’t argue against his subjective opinion; if he doesn’t like it, he doesn’t like it, that’s fine. But he’s trying to make prognostications that the new BL will be the “death knell” of WvW.

Why do I bother? Because I’m desperately searching for substantive criticism of the new BL on this forum so I can try and figure out why many people hate it so much. I’m sure Anet is doing the same so they can sort through feedback on possible changes they should make. And this post offers none of it. This forum has been deluged with poor quality complaint posts and it’s frustrating.

Sviel.7493:

cillard.3986:

So why do you bother, if your only contribution is to attack the person and their method of complaining instead of the issues they raised. It isn’t that hard to get the gist of what that person is saying.

I think he’s saying that the issue that was raised is not clearly defined. He takes issue with the ‘more PvE’ claim because he doesn’t see any evidence to substantiate it. Neither do I.

Well that is a matter of perspective and opinion as well…..

To me, anything environment or NPC related that does not directly involve the killing of players as ‘PvE’. I would currently describe the entire new map as PvE most of the time because all the action is on EB.

Seriously, T1 server on reset had 97 queued for EB and no queue on new maps. Heh, that speaks volumes.

BrickFurious.7169:

Why do I bother? Because I’m desperately searching for substantive criticism of the new BL on this forum so I can try and figure out why many people hate it so much. I’m sure Anet is doing the same so they can sort through feedback on possible changes they should make. And this post offers none of it. This forum has been deluged with poor quality complaint posts and it’s frustrating.

Well if you can sift through the rabid ranting of the angery masses and the fanbois white knighting anet, there is a common theme.

1. Too much space and vertical shift combined with convolution on the new maps.

2. Too many gimmicks that get in the way of game play and fun instead of enhancing it. Blowers, slow fields, mass stealth, etc.

3. Lack of respect for the players when it comes to equal progression in other game modes.

Tspatula.9086:

BrickFurious.7169:

What more PvE? I see this complaint thrown around so much….{snip}

Look an honest examination of the new borderlands reveals a sort of obsessive fixation with Z-axis tech that Anet brought out with the HoT maguma maps. It’s fantastic in the PvE maps, and gliding is genius, but it’s simply out of hand in the new borderlands map. That, and clearly aesthetics trumped all other design considerations. It’s in the guild halls too, massive areas, but the Arena, the really functional part of guild halls is too small by at least 25%, but a 100% increase is really what’s needed. There is no focus on the core gameplay of WvW, the new maps are at least 50% gimmick (and I think I am being generous here)
Play devil’s advocate and support Anet all you want, that’s fine, but EotM, and now this new borderlands clearly show Anet’s tin ear to what the WvW community need and their lack of understanding how WvW works for serious guilds. I have no doubt that they will continue to “tell” us how WvW should be played, regardless of the obvious fact that NONE of the devs are serious WvW players and none of them are willing to admit that they don’t understand the game mode very well.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to defend Anet here, especially with their history of WvW development (and I agree about the tin ear). If anything I’m just trying to encourage more substantive, high-quality critiques of the new map. Because honestly, every time someone just says the new maps have “too much PvE”, a kitten dies, and that’s just abusive.

“Too much z-axis” is moving in a better direction, that’s a complaint that is actually phrased in a way that makes sense. I honestly think this doesn’t disrupt travel times as much as people think; there’s quite a few elevators and lesser-known pathways in the new map that make up for the increased z-axis. Though I definitely understand this complaint for those who are looking for a more straightforward WvW map.

“50% gimmick” unfortunately is still just as vague as “too much PvE”, I still have no idea what you’re actually complaining about there. The oasis event? The air turrets? (which, btw, I will actually complain about those; there needs to be some kind of visual warning before they go off, like they light up or something right before they fire).

BrickFurious.7169:

Tspatula.9086:

BrickFurious.7169:

What more PvE? I see this complaint thrown around so much….{snip}

Look an honest examination of the new borderlands reveals a sort of obsessive fixation with Z-axis tech that Anet brought out with the HoT maguma maps. It’s fantastic in the PvE maps, and gliding is genius, but it’s simply out of hand in the new borderlands map. That, and clearly aesthetics trumped all other design considerations. It’s in the guild halls too, massive areas, but the Arena, the really functional part of guild halls is too small by at least 25%, but a 100% increase is really what’s needed. There is no focus on the core gameplay of WvW, the new maps are at least 50% gimmick (and I think I am being generous here)
Play devil’s advocate and support Anet all you want, that’s fine, but EotM, and now this new borderlands clearly show Anet’s tin ear to what the WvW community need and their lack of understanding how WvW works for serious guilds. I have no doubt that they will continue to “tell” us how WvW should be played, regardless of the obvious fact that NONE of the devs are serious WvW players and none of them are willing to admit that they don’t understand the game mode very well.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to defend Anet here, especially with their history of WvW development (and I agree about the tin ear). If anything I’m just trying to encourage more substantive, high-quality critiques of the new map. Because honestly, every time someone just says the new maps have “too much PvE”, a kitten dies, and that’s just abusive.

“Too much z-axis” is moving in a better direction, that’s a complaint that is actually phrased in a way that makes sense. I honestly think this doesn’t disrupt travel times as much as people think; there’s quite a few elevators and lesser-known pathways in the new map that make up for the increased z-axis. Though I definitely understand this complaint for those who are looking for a more straightforward WvW map.

“50% gimmick” unfortunately is still just as vague as “too much PvE”, I still have no idea what you’re actually complaining about there. The oasis event? The air turrets? (which, btw, I will actually complain about those; there needs to be some kind of visual warning before they go off, like they light up or something right before they fire).

Thank you!

“Too much PvE” says nothing to me too. A keep lord is “too much PvE” under a vague definition. The new PvP map Stronghold has too much PvE. “Too much PvE” appears to be a shorthand for something the author has a difficult time expressing.

cillard.3986:

BrickFurious.7169:

Why do I bother? Because I’m desperately searching for substantive criticism of the new BL on this forum so I can try and figure out why many people hate it so much. I’m sure Anet is doing the same so they can sort through feedback on possible changes they should make. And this post offers none of it. This forum has been deluged with poor quality complaint posts and it’s frustrating.

Well if you can sift through the rabid ranting of the angery masses and the fanbois white knighting anet, there is a common theme.

1. Too much space and vertical shift combined with convolution on the new maps.

2. Too many gimmicks that get in the way of game play and fun instead of enhancing it. Blowers, slow fields, mass stealth, etc.

3. Lack of respect for the players when it comes to equal progression in other game modes.

I can understand #1. I’m concerned about it, but the more I play, the more I like having an interesting place to run around in, as opposed to running across what was mostly a flat field. Also, the more I think about it, the more that I only really ran into other roamers (as a solo roamer) in a couple specific locations. If a location like that develops on the Desert BL, encounters will increase. I also think they are trying to make it so there are more meaningful, smaller-scale engagements on the map, while also giving an event in the middle so groups can come together for large clashes. At least they’re trying something (in my opinion).

As far as gimmicks, people will instantly hate a gimmick that kills them, even if it only happens once. If you fear someone off of a high bridge and they fall, they’ll hate verticality. If you blow someone off of a ledge with a blower, they’ll hate blowers. If you ambush a group from stealth, they’ll hate the mass stealth. They don’t think “Whoa! I’ll need to be more careful in that area next time!”, they instead think “Wow that’s dumb” because they died once. They are of course entitled to their opinion, but judgments happen so lightning fast that it’s almost dangerous to try to add a little spice to WvW. I personally want a little spice, because walls and siege only takes my personal enjoyment so far.

EDIT – That being said about gimmicks, things can be improved about them to make them more fun, but too often entire features are ruled out wholesale, then others just jump on the bandwagon because they love to have a reason to hate something that might have frustrated them a bit.

For #3, it’s such an incredibly slippery slope. If WvW is better than PvE for progression, all you’re going to get is maps full of people training. Odds are you don’t want that if you care about PvP. How much worse does player progression have to be in WvW to be disrespectful? And is it only disrespectful to people who want a quick and easy way to level up alts? Or is it disrespectful to those who want Ascended gear?

BrickFurious.7169:

“50% gimmick” unfortunately is still just as vague as “too much PvE”, I still have no idea what you’re actually complaining about there. The oasis event? The air turrets? (which, btw, I will actually complain about those; there needs to be some kind of visual warning before they go off, like they light up or something right before they fire).

Actually it does look like you know part of what is being complained about given that you jumped to one of the ‘gimmicks’ immediately as being a problem.

The air turrets just need to go away completely. They don’t add anything to meaningful game and are better at frustrating people than enhancing game play. The stealth fountain, the sand, the slow field, the rock walls, etc. They all get in the way of game play to varying degrees.

Regarding the slow field thing ……I hope a flock of birds take a crap all over the newly washed car of the person that thought that was a good thing to implement.

cillard.3986:

BrickFurious.7169:

Why do I bother? Because I’m desperately searching for substantive criticism of the new BL on this forum so I can try and figure out why many people hate it so much. I’m sure Anet is doing the same so they can sort through feedback on possible changes they should make. And this post offers none of it. This forum has been deluged with poor quality complaint posts and it’s frustrating.

Well if you can sift through the rabid ranting of the angery masses and the fanbois white knighting anet, there is a common theme.

1. Too much space and vertical shift combined with convolution on the new maps.

2. Too many gimmicks that get in the way of game play and fun instead of enhancing it. Blowers, slow fields, mass stealth, etc.

3. Lack of respect for the players when it comes to equal progression in other game modes.

I’ll write a response to your other post too since you actually included some substantive criticisms there (thank you), but just wanted to respond to this quick first.

1. I really think this is going to be a L2P thing. After spending probably 10 hours total in the new BL, I feel like I know it really well, and it really doesn’t feel convoluted. The shrines are a bit out of the way in some places (especially air keep) but they’re designed more for roamers anyway (which helps keep big zergs from interrupting their roaming fun). The pathways between the main objectives are actually really straightforward.

2. I agree the air turrets are problematic. I think the best first fix they should try is adding a tell right before they fire (maybe they light up right before they fire). The mass stealth though is really just a way of slowing down groups before they hit earth keep; they gotta flip at least one of the shrines first. And you dodge through/avoid the crippling fields. That said, clearly earth keep has been designed to be very difficult to take, on purpose. I get that. Especially when your server is severely outmanned during a given time slot, it’s nice to have just one objective that you can turtle up in and probably hold. Think of it as diminishing returns; each objective is harder and harder to take as you move north in another team’s BL.

3. This is a more general WvW complaint, not specific to the new HoT WvW content. There’s a lot of general complaints I could throw in with it, but there’s no point, since Anet said they’re working on fixing a lot of these core issues. If this is a problem for you, right now you either have to play and have fun despite the issues, or find another game to play in the meantime.

Selwynn.2758:

This is also why everyone now floods to EB.

That the thing eb not getting flood more so then it use to if any thing its lower even on resets. There more to the wvw pop. drop then the new BL i think it has a lot to do with new pve content (soon more pve content with raids coming out) and i have a feeling guild hall arenas are going to push (fight guilds) out of wvw to gvg in these arenas. If any thing wvw is losing its pop to a point becuse of other things simply getting better.

BrickFurious.7169:

“50% gimmick” unfortunately is still just as vague as “too much PvE”, I still have no idea what you’re actually complaining about there. The oasis event? The air turrets? (which, btw, I will actually complain about those; there needs to be some kind of visual warning before they go off, like they light up or something right before they fire).

Well, in my limited experience so far, the air keep traps especially the ones in the lords room are just overdone. things auto upgrade way too fast (though I am pretty sure that is probably the first thing that will get changed when we start to see changes). It’s obnoxious to get flipped around every few seconds without warning. The outside air traps make an already difficult terrain to maneuver even more so, I have yet to experience a fight as an incoming force there but it gives an overwhelming advantage to the keep. The rock walls that pop up are just silly. And the fire traps and so on…. I haven’t experience the stat boosts but for sure, all of these fairly powerful environment upgrades absolutely should not appear automatically, some of the auto upgrades are fine but others need to have some work associated with them in my opinion.
I have yet to experience the laser event but something that basically destroys all objective gates on the map seems crazy OP to me. Some aspects of the new map are going to end up being just fine after we learn them, the 40% speed buff from the shrines goes a long way to making travel easier, but there will need to be a lot of tuning and tweaking for them to play well…

Cogbyrn.7283:

For #3, it’s such an incredibly slippery slope. If WvW is better than PvE for progression, all you’re going to get is maps full of people training. Odds are you don’t want that if you care about PvP. How much worse does player progression have to be in WvW to be disrespectful? And is it only disrespectful to people who want a quick and easy way to level up alts? Or is it disrespectful to those who want Ascended gear?

Just look at the issue of scrolls and chests and ANETs response to the concerns raised if you want an example of #3. I don’t even care about the loot being far far worse, but WvW is not PvE and the needs are not the same, regardless of how much ANET tries to tell us it is. The concerns of WvWers are more in line of those in PvP than anything else and really needs to be treated that way.

I didn’t see sPvP players being forced to grind out masteries and hero points just to be able to sPvP…….

Random.4691:

Dear god please consult your WvW players, you have managed to butcher WvW in one foul swoop. It’s not even that I personally hate the new maps, there’s just no one on them in T4 which makes me assume that they really are just that bad.

Same in T2. You can go for hours without seeing anyone else on the borderlands.

I think it would be much better if you allowed gliding on the maps. At least that way you could get from point A to point B with some ease.