Guild Wars 2

WvW needs more resourcefulness and less zergs

To keep WvW interesting it need to allow for much more resourcefulness. Now allowing for more resourcefulness is always hard in games because you can only use the mechanics the games offers you. You can not dig a whole as a trap, except if the games allows you to, and you can not build a trojan horse, except if the games allows you to.

But there is a way to give it as much as resourcefulness as possible and that is by making is as lifelike as possible. So I would suggest to do that. For example by giving people and object collision detection (in WvW). Then they can suddenly be much more resourcefulness. They can put down siege weapons just so they are in the way. They can build human stairs to get over a wall and they would be able to do much more. ArenaNet seems to be fearful for resourcefulness people, seeing how they also in PvE banned a lot of people for being resourceful naming it exploiting. But this are things you would be able to do in real life and it is really what the game needs.

Make wood be more lifelike so I can pile it up and maybe burn it. And don’t show warning signs on the map for on every camp or castle that is under attack because thats not possible in reality. Maybe a tower or camp cam light a flame when it is under attack, a flame that scouts can look for without being at every camp.

Also allow people to capture a camp but not use there own flag. Use the enemy flag and let them (if they do) give the option to travel with the dolyaks to hide in the supply. (trojan dolyak) Let them hide in the supply so people can get groups inside and the only way the enemy can see it is because the dolyaks give less supply then they should. Allow for something like a spy.

And that is not all. What is it with a max of the number of siege weapons? I think it is build in after some person put almost a whole map full of siege weapons in the beta but well if he has the supply then he is able to. He would be in real life. And because ArenaNet has connected money with gold, gold is worth real money and so letting siege-weapons just dissolve is almost like stealing money. Now thats not the point I wanted to make but for the game itself it would be better that they would not dissolve. Talking about siege-weapons. When a big rock hits a group of people irl they are all dead, if a lot of arrows rain down on a big group of people irl a lot of the people will get wounded. Why not in the game? There is a limit to the number of people getting hit, thats silly.

And a lot of these build in things mean that zerging is the thing to go. Now serging gets boring because it is brainless… well not totally because it works so everybody with a brain and the manpower will zerg. But you know what I mean.

Looking at the game-mechanics, a lot of them are pro zerging and against tactics. Upgraded camps, towers, keeps, castles will hold off small groups but they are no problem for a big zerg. That should not be the case, a thick wall should be able to hold a big zerg with no problem. The cap on areal attacks (for example from arrow-cards) means that a small group of players will get a lot of damage but a big zergs will not mind at all. The warning signs on the map mean you do not need people on the look out, just zerg and the commander checks the map every 10 sec (I do) to see if they need to move somewhere.

Please make it more ‘lifelike’ and don’t be afraid of smart, resourceful people. It would make WvW a lot more fun and would it also keep it interesting in the long run because there will be always resourceful people that find a way to tackle a tactic invented by some other smart guy.

The last thing that would be nice are bigger maps and not a reset every x time. It would be nicer if the fight would go on without a reset, changing enemy servers and rankings would then go in another way that will not reset the field. But how exactly I will leave to your resourcefulness.

Collision detection wouldn’t work and would ruin the game AND WvW. We all know how the culling is in the game. How would like to running in WvW, and then randomly be stopped by nothing. Only to find out 30 seconds later it is a massive zerg? That would cause a lot of people to leave WvW all together. Collision detection is a terrible idea.

This is a good idea but possibly needs some retouching to balance it out so its fair, but this will really improve World vs. World for very unfair match-ups and actually give those smaller servers a chance to make a comeback even though they are outnumbered.

Create objectives that must be completed before moving onto the next objective or before it can be completed.

tluv.5821:

Collision detection wouldn’t work and would ruin the game AND WvW. We all know how the culling is in the game. How would like to running in WvW, and then randomly be stopped by nothing. Only to find out 30 seconds later it is a massive zerg? That would cause a lot of people to leave WvW all together. Collision detection is a terrible idea.

I’m only talking about WvW. It would be a terrible idea in PvE. And yes of course the culling should also be fixed. As long as there is culling everything you can come up with it bad. But in WvW when there is no culling then collision detection would give a lot of options that would make WvW much more interesting.

Of all the things you mention, I think “Traps” are the best idea. I’ll have to think on this more to develop how it might work…

Chessrook.8643:

Of all the things you mention, I think “Traps” are the best idea. I’ll have to think on this more to develop how it might work…

Just like a siege weapon, you place them but only your team can see them. But the best traps would be traps not really put in by the game but ‘created’ by the players. Thats why I basically ask for more freedom. For example if you lure people into something (a canyon, a building) and you are able to close it with the help of collision detection you made yourself a trap not put in by the game. Then you have time to take them out.

There is something I forgot to mention. As a zerg going around you make a lot of gold, xp, karma. Defending a keep, upgrading it will cost you money you will only be able to get some when you get attacked. That should also change so defending will also make you money when there is no attack and upgrading should also be possible with using supply and not money. Last oil and canons should also be able to get repaired.

Actually made a post regarding the traps thing. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/wuvwuv/A-new-suggested-addition-for-WvW-Traps/first#post1171908

I read it. it might be a nice addition to this post, but the thing is, it is still a build in mechanic. It helps but by making WvW more lifelike like I suggest you also make room for tactics not put in the game-mechanics them-self. And that would really make WvW more interesting.

Collision detection is a good idea in principle and would end the unrealistic advantage of marching an army around in one big zerg but it’s probably not practical for WvW in GW2. Building human stairs Counterstrike style sounds like a really bad idea that would make capping structures way too easy. But I see your point, a large scale siege warfare environment should reflect the reality of the situation, for instance games like Rome: Total War punish “zerging” with collision detection, lack of frontage, increased damage from missiles, etc. A possible solution to end zerging could be to apply a cumulative speed penalty if too many people are in close proximity.

Again, in principle I agree with your idea of “resourcefulness” (otherwise known as emergent gameplay) but they need to be carefully considered so that they don’t break the game.

This would not be fun to play, sorry

The upcoming progression patch (Feb.) could serve to break up zerging is they build it right. Simply make each objective or player kill worth a static amount of progression “xp” that is split between everyone who participated in killing or capturing. This will cause people to try to do things with as few people as they possibly can to maximize their “xp”.

Adaneshade.2409:

… Simply make each objective or player kill worth a static amount of progression “xp” that is split between everyone who participated in killing or capturing. This will cause people to try to do things with as few people as they possibly can to maximize their “xp”.

I believe this is called PvE and is already in the game. I don’t think most people who WvWvW are there for the PvE.

I do agree that we need less zergs. I enjoy strats and tactics more than mob vs doors. I just think that the mindless zerg is far easier for most people so even if there was another method in place (to reinforce strategy) that it would be used. I mean, most people would rather run around and kill random things than defend so… I don’t see how adding “objectives” or “kill xp” would help.

Lavath.8924:

Adaneshade.2409:

… Simply make each objective or player kill worth a static amount of progression “xp” that is split between everyone who participated in killing or capturing. This will cause people to try to do things with as few people as they possibly can to maximize their “xp”.

I believe this is called PvE and is already in the game. I don’t think most people who WvWvW are there for the PvE.

I do agree that we need less zergs. I enjoy strats and tactics more than mob vs doors. I just think that the mindless zerg is far easier for most people so even if there was another method in place (to reinforce strategy) that it would be used. I mean, most people would rather run around and kill random things than defend so… I don’t see how adding “objectives” or “kill xp” would help.

Have you been under a rock? They ARE adding it in. It’s already been stated lol. Read dev posts about the February patch…..

My post was rather than just rewarding everyone a set amount per encounter. Make each encounter worth a set amount to be divided among participants. This would discourage zergs rather than reinforcing them (ANet’s planned WvW progression will have one impact or the other….more zergs or less zergs. It’s all in how they implement.)

“Building human stairs Counterstrike style sounds like a really bad idea that would make capping structures way too easy.” well that kinda depends on how the physics works. I use to play Return to Castle Wolfenstein a lot. That had collision detection and on one map it was used to get over a wall (it was still only one of the tactics used to get in). But maybe even more important. You were able to get on top somebody else but trying to put up a 3th man did not work (it might be possible but just to hard). It is hard to explain to somebody who hasn’t played it but if you want to try out, it was the Beach Assault map that is available in the free demo. Try to do it, you see you can but it is basically just as hard as in real life.

Anyway, it shows that it is possible to make it in a way that you can only get one person on top of another one but not build a stair that reach into the skies (without really programming out that possibility).

“This would not be fun to play, sorry” well maybe. Would be useful if you would say what you don’t like about it, but a lot of people don’t like the fact that zergs are the way to go.

“I just think that the mindless zerg is far easier for most people so even if there was another method in place (to reinforce strategy) that it would be used.” It’s no problem to have a zerg. But they should be part of the whole, one tool. Now tactics can maybe slow down a big zerg but in the end a zerg will always do the job while good tactics should be always better and a zerg can be part of a bigger tactic. But they should really be one of the tools to use, not the only real tool.

Collision and solid body physics in WvW? Not without reducing it to a slideshow.

The only way to “disperse” zergs completely is if you had say 3 capture points spread out and you had to have players in each spot. Think World in Conflict.

Also, they need to tone down the amount of damage certain classes can do. Crowd controls should really diminishing return or stability should last longer and work on roots.

I think you should be able to launch players via catapult. /nod

“Collision and solid body physics in WvW?” not so sure about that. The ‘body’ is not much more as a rectangle and collision detection has worked for other games. Do think that will be so heavy. All the effects and the high amount of polygons are more of a problem. Never see exact numbers about it (did you?) but I don’t think that is a big deal."

Devata.6589:

“Collision and solid body physics in WvW?” not so sure about that. The ‘body’ is not much more as a rectangle and collision detection has worked for other games. Do think that will be so heavy. All the effects and the high amount of polygons are more of a problem. Never see exact numbers about it (did you?) but I don’t think that is a big deal."

You said that you wanted to interact with objects in a lifelike way and do things like setting fire to objects. For me, this means some kind of physics model, not just collision bounding boxes. Effects and polygons are easy to deal with compared to physics.

Anyway. I agree it would be a cool idea but implemented on a mass scale like wvw? Give it 5-8 years.

Devata.6589:

tluv.5821:

Collision detection wouldn’t work and would ruin the game AND WvW. We all know how the culling is in the game. How would like to running in WvW, and then randomly be stopped by nothing. Only to find out 30 seconds later it is a massive zerg? That would cause a lot of people to leave WvW all together. Collision detection is a terrible idea.

I’m only talking about WvW. It would be a terrible idea in PvE. And yes of course the culling should also be fixed. As long as there is culling everything you can come up with it bad. But in WvW when there is no culling then collision detection would give a lot of options that would make WvW much more interesting.

Culling should’ve been fixed months ago and yet isn’t, making this discussion pointless.

“Fixing” culling would require it to be something that was a bug or glitch to begin with. It’s intentional and totally necessary atm to enable players with PCs that barely meet the minimum specs to be able to play.

They can simply toggle it off at any point. But not without causing issues to certain players.

Fortunately some back-end work on the engine may see that switch turned off in the near future.