Guild Wars 2

WvW has many facets to it and should not be balanced around zergs only.
There are small scale roaming and solo roaming to consider.
They all contribute in their own ways in different time zones.

To say balances should revolve around zerg vs zerg only isn’t right.
And that is what makes balancing WvW so challenging.
How do you balance a game mode that has so many facets to it?

If you somehow managed to balance the zerg vs zerg scene, will small scale and solo roaming become unbalanced? And vice versa.

Sorry, going to have to be a nit snarky here: WvW is Balanced for zergs ?! :p

Anyways, as long as pvp is in the game, it will have a decent small group balance. So 5vs5 is decent even in WvW. If anything it is the outfields that suffer, 1vs1 and 20+vs20+

The game isn’t balanced around zerg vs zerg at all, which is one part of the problem.

• Half the classes aren’t even viable in zerg
• Game mechanics like the target caps works in zergs favor, designed for 5 player
• AoE spam
• Boon spam

etc, basically, Zerging is just the easiest way to break the existing system, since it is designed around 5 vs 5 at its core (5man party for dungeon, OW, fractal etc, 5vs5 in pvp).

All of this is part of ANet’s “Care Bear Rule”, that it should never be negative to see another player on your team. It is a good concept for PVE, doesn’t work quite as well in WvW.

PS: If anything you’d think a game so focused around 5vs5 would be great for small group roaming!

Well if you removed all classes except guardian, removed all gear except PVT, made every build identical and had a fixed set of skills, then 1v1 or 50v50 would be perfectly balanced!!!

Wait their individual skill level would still differ…

kittenmit!

My solution failed.

Since when did they start balancing around zergs? I thought they were still balancing around pvp/pve raids…
Does this mean they are finally going to do something about the ridiculous boon sharing?

Most of WvW is balanced around 5-10 players actually. All keeps can be taken by 5, with the scaling making it really difficult past 10. SMC can be duo’d (did it once with mesmer + thief hiding inside waiting for RI to end). The fact that people group up to fight other large groups is only a side effect of what WvW brings. It’s definitely not balanced around zergs.

Honestly compared to the meta for zergs, the small group meta/roaming meta is much better balanced currently than previously and much better balanced than the zerg meta. A good group of 3-4 can still take out 10 and within the group of 3-4 you have a number of different viable comps you can take.

The issue is you can’t balance around zergs directly through class nerfs imo since then those classes also become useless at small scale.

WvW isn’t balanced would be fair enough. Roaming cheese builds rule for havoc and below that destroy the spirit of the game. One shot mechanics and such. They really never balance for WvW. It’s not viable as ESPORTS!

The game isn’t balanced at all. They threw the traits together and called it a day: We haven’t had any balance since. Some number crushing here and there which made some OP builds UP. If you look at what has happened to PvP since June last year: Rune and Amulett shaving or removal, because the PvP team can’t do more. It’s all still in WvW though, so the “balance” of PvP doesn’t apply to small scale WvW.
You can perfectly solo or duolo all PvE elements in WvW, it’s a different thing when it comes to fighting other players though.
I think that proper class balance would solve a lot of the problems, even if it comes down to zergs as zergs are already more balanced if even numbers than small scale with even numbers.
And still you have to take into account that wvw/servers are bugged and that some “worlds” perform better because of that – I have no evidene for that but I know I’m right. We once fought with our best commander with a full squad against an organized guild group and some pugs – we didn’t stand a chance, the whole night, we lost everything and that commander rarely loses anything. Then there were some patches and the next day we were in the same situation (our group the same, their group the same, map the same but other IP) and won everything.
Combat in this game has to be reworked from the ground up. You can however just do like everybody else: Stand in a keep, wait until a blob arrives, pew pew until your siege has been AoE-d, jump out to the back, cap some paper tower, build an AC wait until a blob arrives – rinse and repeat.

joneirikb.7506:

Sorry, going to have to be a nit snarky here: WvW is Balanced for zergs ?! :p

Anyways, as long as pvp is in the game, it will have a decent small group balance. So 5vs5 is decent even in WvW. If anything it is the outfields that suffer, 1vs1 and 20+vs20+

The game isn’t balanced around zerg vs zerg at all, which is one part of the problem.

• Half the classes aren’t even viable in zerg
• Game mechanics like the target caps works in zergs favor, designed for 5 player
• AoE spam
• Boon spam

etc, basically, Zerging is just the easiest way to break the existing system, since it is designed around 5 vs 5 at its core (5man party for dungeon, OW, fractal etc, 5vs5 in pvp).

All of this is part of ANet’s “Care Bear Rule”, that it should never be negative to see another player on your team. It is a good concept for PVE, doesn’t work quite as well in WvW.

PS: If anything you’d think a game so focused around 5vs5 would be great for small group roaming!

Pretty much this.

The reason we have zerging is simply because of the people behind the computer rather than the game encouraging it. They don’t have confidence in their ability to fight and win a 1v1 and usually lose outside of outnumbering someone. Even then they have probably been scarred by being beaten even outnumbering 2/3 to 1 to the point where they huddle up for safety.

The other side is the game doesn’t actively punish for zerging at all. Sure you can hold a higher tick by having more smaller groups but you’ll have paper keeps all the time while they have T3 doom fortresses filled with ACs, trebs, mortars and waypoints for easy movement.

EremiteAngel.9765:

How do you balance a game mode that has so many facets to it?

Current Base Mechanic makes it impossible & downright messy to balance the many facets.

Replace the Base Mechanic & balancing the many facets is child’s play.

See below

For a Better Long Term Solution for WvW – Try a Google Search of – wvg world vs globes

Diku.2546:

EremiteAngel.9765:

How do you balance a game mode that has so many facets to it?

Current Base Mechanic makes it impossible & downright messy to balance the many facets.

Replace the Base Mechanic & balancing the many facets is child’s play.

See below

---

For a Better Long Term Solution for WvW – Try a Google Search of – wvg world vs globes

So you’re saying if we change wvw to your “world vs globes”, that has 96 US maps (24 EB, 48 ABL, 24 DBL) and 108 EU maps (27 EB, 54 ABL, 27 DBL) total, the devs will easily be able to adjust skills and combat mechanics between pve and spvp and wvw?

Balanced around zergs? The game is balanced around pvp and pve raids. So that means 3v3 to 10v10. Zerging is boonshare meta with no counterplay. Dueling isnt that bad but ele and necro are weaker duelists. Maybe ranger is a tad strong as well.

akaCryptic.2389:

Balanced around zergs? The game is balanced around pvp and pve raids. So that means 3v3 to 10v10. Zerging is boonshare meta with no counterplay. Dueling isnt that bad but ele and necro are weaker duelists. Maybe ranger is a tad strong as well.

sPvP is 5v5 though and last I checked PvE raids wasnt a 20 man brawl between two player groups.

Dawdler.8521:

akaCryptic.2389:

Balanced around zergs? The game is balanced around pvp and pve raids. So that means 3v3 to 10v10. Zerging is boonshare meta with no counterplay. Dueling isnt that bad but ele and necro are weaker duelists. Maybe ranger is a tad strong as well.

sPvP is 5v5 though and last I checked PvE raids wasnt a 20 man brawl between two player groups.

PvP is the main focus. But they do consider pve raids as well. See well of precognition and staff ele nerfs. Perhaps raids are also the reason they havent nerfed revenants facet of nature yet. Which is one of the contributors to boon meta in the gvg scene.

Game was never balanced for zergs, it’s been balanced for 5v5 for spvp and probably enrage checks in raids which is only for 10. If it was ever balanced for wvw zergs they would have a lot more checks in the system for certain things, like boon duration, which doesn’t really matter in spvp, since fights are much shorter and you don’t have 10 other people spamming boons. It’s why condition was useless from day one in big group fights because of mass cleanses.

The only other big zerg that happens is in pve world bosses, but who cares about balance to those.

We can make all the suggestions in the world to Anet.

There is however one problem, a problem which has been around for over 4 years now: They wont listen! And they refuse to spend resources on WvW.

Just look at the gem store: Buy all these little toys and glider skins! Oh but you cant use them in WvW cos balance.

Tigers can’t easily change their stripes.

From a Dev’s viewpoint I’d be moronic if I changed the core design of my work to match the popular opinion of the month.

My intent is to provide a consistent message of hope that there is a better alternative to the current state of things.

My desire is to see this Game Mode thrive.

You can kick me all you want, but I’ll continue to urge ANet to change the core design of their WvW product.

You don’t just give up on something that’s precious…you continue to fight & survive in what you believe.

Passing on the “compass” to those that will hear it.

Anime is God Eater…btw

Swagger.1459:

So you’re saying if we change wvw to your “world vs globes”, that has 96 US maps (24 EB, 48 ABL, 24 DBL) and 108 EU maps (27 EB, 54 ABL, 27 DBL) total, the devs will easily be able to adjust skills and combat mechanics between pve and spvp and wvw?

Actually it could be Less Maps.

WvG only needs 24 US & 27 EU Maps if Borderland maps aren’t used.

It’s really up to ANet to decide How Many Borderland Maps to implement for a Globe. It could be zero, or up to 3 Borderland Maps.

Changing the Core Design CAN make the whole Game Mode…Child’s Play to balance.

For a Better Long Term Solution for WvW – Try a Google Search of – wvg world vs globes