Guild Wars 2

As an offensive commander whose getting in touch what will HoT bring, ive noticed the massive disadvantage status the attackers who will go for towers/keep will be at:

The upgrades you can put on objectives are welcomed in my eyes but they tend to give a tremendous advantages to defenders if you combine what WvW has right now and what HoT will add.

Let me start off with the upgrade of choosing to make “gates will only take siege damage” or “cannons and mortars will only take siege damage” option- Both are considered strong choices but we all know that the best choice would be to choose “mortars and cannons will take siege damage only” instead of gates taking siege damage.
Why? Because you can spam siege disablers on the rams at gate and all you need is 1-2 players who can make up to 5 cannon shots on the rams and youre attacking attempt has been allready foiled.

Now you may arque that you can build a ballista very fast to take down those cannons before building rams but i will say that if there is 1 or even 2 defenders present, they can kill your ballista with ACs very fast and nothing will work out. They can even throw a disabler on that ballista before going on ACs and will have a guaranteed kill on that ballista of yours.

Also its not the cannons that are gona be the issue, the mortars can also kill everything you drop nearby the gate.

In fact, the mortars can even kill your catapults way too easily if you decide to attack walls instead. The only solution you have is to AC down the mortars with the risk of enemy defenders throwing disablers, ACing back, going suicide mode on your AC.

Now ofcourse at the moment im talking in a prospective where there are up to 5 defenders being present. Can you imageon how more impossible things will be if a 45+ man blob will appear?

Im not gona lie but there are many players in WvW who play it mostly for fights and they realy arent that much interested in flipping objectives. But in the current WvW you are often faced to downgrade towers/keeps if you want to pull out more fights where enemies dont hide behind walls. That being said and what i also said earlier, it will be a big discomfort for a large amount of players.

Also take into account the factors that not many WvW servers have their population and coverage balanced. This means that servers that dont have players playing late night or early morning up to afternoon, they will be forced to deal with more upgraded objectives once they come back to home from work.

As far as i see then once HoT hits, there will be a massive lack of balance between objective attackers and objective defenders. As in while the defenders have massive amount of possibilities to defend their objectives which come with huge advantages, the attackers will be left with close to nothing.

I see this as an massive issue that needs to be resolved as soon as possible. For now the only balance i can think of anet doing something with those siege disablers. Id be happy even if they would completely remove it but nobody cares about what a random joe like me thinks about it.

After reading that, all I could think of was that k-trainers gotta k-train.

Can’t cannons/mortars/oil be disabled?
Do defenders become invulnerable while they man an invulnerable cannon/mortar?

Sure, some of those automatic buffs to structures can raise issues, but it takes a while to make counterplay common knowledge or find out that it actually is massively unbalanced in favor of whoever.

Arctisavange.7260:

As an offensive commander whose getting in touch what will HoT bring, ive noticed the massive disadvantage status the attackers who will go for towers/keep will be at:

The upgrades you can put on objectives are welcomed in my eyes but they tend to give a tremendous advantages to defenders if you combine what WvW has right now and what HoT will add.

Let me start off with the upgrade of choosing to make “gates will only take siege damage” or “cannons and mortars will only take siege damage” option- Both are considered strong choices but we all know that the best choice would be to choose “mortars and cannons will take siege damage only” instead of gates taking siege damage.
Why? Because you can spam siege disablers on the rams at gate and all you need is 1-2 players who can make up to 5 cannon shots on the rams and youre attacking attempt has been allready foiled.

Now you may arque that you can build a ballista very fast to take down those cannons before building rams but i will say that if there is 1 or even 2 defenders present, they can kill your ballista with ACs very fast and nothing will work out. They can even throw a disabler on that ballista before going on ACs and will have a guaranteed kill on that ballista of yours.

Also its not the cannons that are gona be the issue, the mortars can also kill everything you drop nearby the gate.

In fact, the mortars can even kill your catapults way too easily if you decide to attack walls instead. The only solution you have is to AC down the mortars with the risk of enemy defenders throwing disablers, ACing back, going suicide mode on your AC.

Now ofcourse at the moment im talking in a prospective where there are up to 5 defenders being present. Can you imageon how more impossible things will be if a 45+ man blob will appear?

Im not gona lie but there are many players in WvW who play it mostly for fights and they realy arent that much interested in flipping objectives. But in the current WvW you are often faced to downgrade towers/keeps if you want to pull out more fights where enemies dont hide behind walls. That being said and what i also said earlier, it will be a big discomfort for a large amount of players.

Also take into account the factors that not many WvW servers have their population and coverage balanced. This means that servers that dont have players playing late night or early morning up to afternoon, they will be forced to deal with more upgraded objectives once they come back to home from work.

As far as i see then once HoT hits, there will be a massive lack of balance between objective attackers and objective defenders. As in while the defenders have massive amount of possibilities to defend their objectives which come with huge advantages, the attackers will be left with close to nothing.

I see this as an massive issue that needs to be resolved as soon as possible. For now the only balance i can think of anet doing something with those siege disablers. Id be happy even if they would completely remove it but nobody cares about what a random joe like me thinks about it.

I see your making an assumption that mortars are present and in that case it is an upgraded structure. It should NOT be EASY to take an upgraded structure and 5 people defending SHOULD be able to make it difficult to take an upgraded structure.

In fact you used to actually have to treb upgraded structures down and use tactics to take upgraded things.

So in short….yes…. you will not be able to easily k-train, and you won’t be able to sit on a door with your 65 man map queue blob and pvdoor it down. You also won’t be able to bomb the top of the walls as much on the new map and take down all the friggin siege on it just by aoe’ing it anymore.

The defenders are supposed to have the advantage and the game is supposed to be tactical in nature….not get as many people as we can together and press 1 on the door….

Regarding disabling mortars/cannons:

More then likely you are gona need to disable 2 cannons and possibly a mortar or two if you go ramming on gate. That will cost you up to 20-40 supplies, which is a lot.

Now if you consider that the disabling time and how long will it actualy take to open a gate/wall, the disabling mortars/cannons is not gona be worth it. It will be even considered as a big waste.

Even in nowadays WvW its still a lot easier to defend rather then attack. We all know its true.
Ive had the siege planted disabled every time the disabling timer expired and in came the blob to kill the flipping attempt. 1 example of how easy it is to defend.

Defending allready is way too easy compared to attacking!!

Now if you will throw in HoT then a T3 tower will have- mortars, cannons and oil that can be only killed by siege, lots of arrowcarts on walls (which will be even harder to kill), trebuchet behind the gate, disablers and more then likely up to 300+ supplies minimum. If you consider all of that then isnt that more then enough of an advantage to give to a small group of defenders?
How about throwing in an enemy blob also? What will you make out of it then?

I also brought out that not every server goes for the objectives to karma train. There are many many servers that are forced to downgrade T3 due to enemy servers having morning/night crew. So you can leave your “i want easy ktrain” theory out.

If you still dont believe that even now its still hard to defend then you can gladly look at the footages and spot all of the troubles ive had in flipping T3 from here:

Old clips from hills:

And put your biggest focus on this one to spot all of the benefits of defenders (up to 51 min flipping attempt):

Keep in mind that those are succesfuly recorded attempts, you wouldnt believe how many failed attempts ive had due to how easy it is to defend nowadays.

Im starting to feel a little sorry for all the servers who will be in matchups with coverage gaps. If it really does become that difficult to take towers it will really suck to log in and find all your things were flipped and upgraded while most your server was gone.

Night capping qq may reach an all time high.

Hopefully it wont be that bad.

I am hoping we will see more siege work on the new map. Now, 95% of all sieges is 2-3 rams at the door or as many catas right up to the wall. Seeing more distance use would be great.

So MAYBE cannons and mortars might be SLIGHTLY more useful. Don’t see a problem here.

As it stands a 20man takes down cannons and mortars so fast they don’t matter. Even if they cannot be damage staff attacks blanket them with so much damage nobody can stand next to them anyway. After the giant AC nerf, taking a T3 is actually easier than ever.

Standing next to them really isn’t all that hard if they are invuln to player damage- two cannons will make short work of your 20 man blob when added to two sup AC. It’s also very easy to dodge in, fire cannon, dodge out.

Seeing a cannon being able to hit 50 players at the same time and knowing what a huge chunk of HP 1 cannon shot takes away, myeah, not gona work out as you think.

Can you imageon how painful it will be to push at south bay for example when you have 2 enemy cannons shooting and a 40+ man blob defending?

Now work yourself all the way to inner bay- once youve managed to drop those cannons there via huge effort (freecasters + acs + maned cannons + mortars shooting at you), youre still gona have problems with cleaning inner mortars. You cant do it with ACs nearby lower inner walls due to loads of enemies freecasting + ACs up on walls so the only new meta for killing annoying siege is going full treb mode with the risk of your treb being killed by 2 mortars and counter trebs before you can even do something

Baldrick.8967:

Standing next to them really isn’t all that hard if they are invuln to player damage- two cannons will make short work of your 20 man blob when added to two sup AC. It’s also very easy to dodge in, fire cannon, dodge out.

Two staff eles will drop just about any player that isn’t running an invuln. Add in a mesmers and necros and getting to the siege is all but impossible.

Arctisavange as it is now Attackers have the advantage, on a wall you cant damage them if you dont stand at the edge but then your already dead. So that defens get buff is good, it should be hard to cap a building.

it sounds like op wants to be able to brute force his way into objectives without regard to the existence of defenders, simply because he assumes his group will outnumber them.

insanemaniac.2456:

it sounds like op wants to be able to brute force his way into objectives without regard to the existence of defenders, simply because he assumes his group will outnumber them.

Does this look like fun and brute force?

Tell me step by step what was i forced to do to finaly flip it and if you anwser correctly, you can allready see the pain im talking about.

There it is as many defenders as attackers if it been 5 for start you would have been in lordroom in 3-5min.

I can tell you many stories of how 5 defenders have disabled all of my siege for up to ~10 minutes in a row, long enough for the enemy blob to come in and finish the job.

Arctisavange.7260:

I can tell you many stories of how 5 defenders have disabled all of my siege for up to ~10 minutes in a row, long enough for the enemy blob to come in and finish the job.

All that says to me, is that you failed in your roles as an attacker. You did not focus a measly 5 players on a wall to kill them, you didn’t watch for disables to be thrown in order to tome a block or reflect for them. You failed at protecting your siege from disablers. That is an issue with a lack of coordinated effort on your groups part.

Use treb, protect your siege, open the ennemy keep, and go in….
Oh wait, this take time, and then the ennemy blob is here to defend… Then just fight the ennemy blob… Not to difficult… Or attack multiple target at one time, if ennemy is doing mono blob they will loose at least 1 tower or keep.
It’s take around 8H to upgrade a keep, and so many gold / time / supply to build siege… And you want to go inside in 5 min with your 30+ zerg ? It’s ok that 5 guys can delay ennemy group. I say delay, not stop.
Taking ennemy full upgraded keep should be real siege, with multiple try to force the defender to use supply. Once the keep is empty without any supply it will fall.

Arctisavange.7260:

insanemaniac.2456:

it sounds like op wants to be able to brute force his way into objectives without regard to the existence of defenders, simply because he assumes his group will outnumber them.

Does this look like fun and brute force?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgVJ3i7WuFM

Tell me step by step what was i forced to do to finaly flip it and if you anwser correctly, you can allready see the pain im talking about.

since its a 50 min video, you shouldve gone elsewhere if flipping things was your objective. if a fight was your objective, perhaps you should have presented a bigger threat with (for example) safe trebs or omegas so that the defenders would be forced to call for help from the kind of group you wanted to fight.

dont link me a 50 min video and tell me to watch it and report back your failures. i dont have that kind of time, i have experienced it before, and it makes you sound meh (and those defenders sound like people to idolize).

I really like the idea of heavy defense. It should be like that. If you want to take the one any only big enemy keep you are supposed to take more than 2 minutes.
Attack with trebs from far enough – no mokittenamage. Take omegas if you wanna go full force – they can destroy canons and attack from range.

You will have to think differently than just rushing through gates without a defenders chance to even arrive at the keep. Take your time, drain their supplies until their keeps look like Swiss cheese and they are forced to fight until the last man to hold their keep. . That is what wvw should be like.

It’s called siege weapon not rush weapon.

insanemaniac.2456:

Arctisavange.7260:

insanemaniac.2456:

it sounds like op wants to be able to brute force his way into objectives without regard to the existence of defenders, simply because he assumes his group will outnumber them.

Does this look like fun and brute force?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgVJ3i7WuFM

Tell me step by step what was i forced to do to finaly flip it and if you anwser correctly, you can allready see the pain im talking about.

since its a 50 min video, you shouldve gone elsewhere if flipping things was your objective. if a fight was your objective, perhaps you should have presented a bigger threat with (for example) safe trebs or omegas so that the defenders would be forced to call for help from the kind of group you wanted to fight.

dont link me a 50 min video and tell me to watch it and report back your failures. i dont have that kind of time, i have experienced it before, and it makes you sound meh (and those defenders sound like people to idolize).

The goal was to get a big kitten fight and 2nd goal was to flip the keep. We allready downgraded garrison and hills was a no go so the only thing left was bay.

How do trebs make a 50+ man blob a bigger threat?

If youd even bother to watch the video then you clearly saw that the group i wanted to fight was inside there but they wouldnt leave their walls

Dont you allready know that lots of fighting servers are in a position that if you want to fight enemies, then majority of the weaker fighting servers will hug walls and they will never leave it if possible. So the only solution is to attack them.

The linking of video was to bring out the facts (towards deniers) that defenders are not in disadvantage but rather are in an advantage, which is related to thread, except with an addition of HoT giving them more advantages.

The reason for why i asked you to type out the steps from the video was for you to type out that big massive list of what was needed for me to do in order to downgrade that T3. The list itself is proof enough regarding the last statement i made.

Do you even know how to command? Im seeing that you have zero clue regarding anything related to commanding.

Entenkommando.5208:

I really like the idea of heavy defense. It should be like that. If you want to take the one any only big enemy keep you are supposed to take more than 2 minutes.
Attack with trebs from far enough – no mokittenamage. Take omegas if you wanna go full force – they can destroy canons and attack from range.

You will have to think differently than just rushing through gates without a defenders chance to even arrive at the keep. Take your time, drain their supplies until their keeps look like Swiss cheese and they are forced to fight until the last man to hold their keep. . That is what wvw should be like.

It’s called siege weapon not rush weapon.

What I am worried about is that atm it takes almost 2 hours to take something fully upgraded keep vs a defensive server and vs defensive servers its very hard to get fights at all without breaking into there keep. If you have a 40 man zerg there to stop them of just pushing on you and driving you out then about 30 of the 40 people will have NOTHING to do during most of the siege(witch will most likely last 3+ hours in the new maps). I feel like people need to take into account the fun factor and sitting around for 2 hours to break into inner is not fun for most people unless you are actively doing something and at most you will be blasting waters, spamming emotes at the defenders and auto running to camps to resup. Personally I wish the defenders would have to fight at some point instead of sitting on walls spamming one on a ac or something until you get to lord.

“You must have no experience commanding”
“The enemy won’t come out to fight and just hug the wall”

This right here shows your inexperience. If you build an open field treb they can’t disable it as easy and have to come out to fight. Instead of crying about defenders maybe you should change your tactics.

Entenkommando.5208:

I really like the idea of heavy defense. It should be like that. If you want to take the one any only big enemy keep you are supposed to take more than 2 minutes.
Attack with trebs from far enough – no mokittenamage. Take omegas if you wanna go full force – they can destroy canons and attack from range.

You will have to think differently than just rushing through gates without a defenders chance to even arrive at the keep. Take your time, drain their supplies until their keeps look like Swiss cheese and they are forced to fight until the last man to hold their keep. . That is what wvw should be like.

It’s called siege weapon not rush weapon.

Ofcoure you have a valid point that flipping T3 keeps should take longer then 2 minutes but keeping an balance between agressors and defenders must also take place. Sadly HoT will give defenders even bigger advantages making thus making attacking even more frustrating then it is.

Omegas cost money and lots of supply. As an commander you often need the correct timing. Ive even managed to downgrade many T3 simply cause i was able to see enemy map blob movements ahead and use that to my advantage.

The main problem isnt opening walls or gates, the biggest and main problem even in that video was passing through a chokehold where a 45+ man blob was camping amongst with massive amount of ACs in it.

I even recall solely co ordinating my treber regarding how many ticks he had to change and what power was needed to kill each and every AC while at the same time ordering to kill heroes who went for our treb, ordering to kill new ac build sites, looking at the blob positioning inside, trying to influence their movement towards favourable position for me, slowly and painfuly tring to open the chokehold and so on.

Id say we even killed up to 30+ ACs + 5+ counter trebs + loards of new mortars in that video. I even recall the lord room having 8+ ACs in it before our treber managed to clean half of them.

For a regular joe it all seems “oh just treb them, oh just golem rush them” but for experienced commanders theres far more gameplay and tacticaly thinking then “treb, omega, and rush in”.
With HoT coming, i cant stand the fact that attackers are left out in the cold and the defenders are getting an big boost, knowing that allready they are in a good position.

Arctisavange.7260:

As an offensive commander whose getting in touch what will HoT bring, ive noticed the massive disadvantage status the attackers who will go for towers/keep will be at:

The upgrades you can put on objectives are welcomed in my eyes but they tend to give a tremendous advantages to defenders if you combine what WvW has right now and what HoT will add.

Let me start off with the upgrade of choosing to make “gates will only take siege damage” or “cannons and mortars will only take siege damage” option- Both are considered strong choices but we all know that the best choice would be to choose “mortars and cannons will take siege damage only” instead of gates taking siege damage.
Why? Because you can spam siege disablers on the rams at gate and all you need is 1-2 players who can make up to 5 cannon shots on the rams and youre attacking attempt has been allready foiled.

Now you may arque that you can build a ballista very fast to take down those cannons before building rams but i will say that if there is 1 or even 2 defenders present, they can kill your ballista with ACs very fast and nothing will work out. They can even throw a disabler on that ballista before going on ACs and will have a guaranteed kill on that ballista of yours.

Also its not the cannons that are gona be the issue, the mortars can also kill everything you drop nearby the gate.

In fact, the mortars can even kill your catapults way too easily if you decide to attack walls instead. The only solution you have is to AC down the mortars with the risk of enemy defenders throwing disablers, ACing back, going suicide mode on your AC.

Now ofcourse at the moment im talking in a prospective where there are up to 5 defenders being present. Can you imageon how more impossible things will be if a 45+ man blob will appear?

Im not gona lie but there are many players in WvW who play it mostly for fights and they realy arent that much interested in flipping objectives. But in the current WvW you are often faced to downgrade towers/keeps if you want to pull out more fights where enemies dont hide behind walls. That being said and what i also said earlier, it will be a big discomfort for a large amount of players.

Also take into account the factors that not many WvW servers have their population and coverage balanced. This means that servers that dont have players playing late night or early morning up to afternoon, they will be forced to deal with more upgraded objectives once they come back to home from work.

As far as i see then once HoT hits, there will be a massive lack of balance between objective attackers and objective defenders. As in while the defenders have massive amount of possibilities to defend their objectives which come with huge advantages, the attackers will be left with close to nothing.

I see this as an massive issue that needs to be resolved as soon as possible. For now the only balance i can think of anet doing something with those siege disablers. Id be happy even if they would completely remove it but nobody cares about what a random joe like me thinks about it.

1st off bali range and treb range vs AC range. your bad. both in being misinformed and on the L2P side.

2nd, the current problem is k-trains and the lack of ways for fewer / outnumbered defenders to be able to defend / hold-out long enough vs blobs until decent reinforcements arrive. Everything gets flipped with extreme ease by blobs.

Hence a-net did what they did. To change some of that.

Everything you have stated is a step in the wrong direction. Building a single bali or a single treb at nearly max range to sweep siege does not mean it will bring your k-train blob to a complete standstill, it just means you have to actually put in some minimal thought and effort before you start PVD, or if upgrade will be up, put down rams.

Vs blobs, disablers will be just as inconsequential as they are now. No change there.

So if you do post anything, post it so that it fixes the k-trainign blob problems, not make it worse.

bloodletting wolf.2837:

“You must have no experience commanding”
“The enemy won’t come out to fight and just hug the wall”

This right here shows your inexperience. If you build an open field treb they can’t disable it as easy and have to come out to fight. Instead of crying about defenders maybe you should change your tactics.

Have you even played on the new maps lol, one of the keeps is underground and the defenders can walk on the lava if they ninja the shrines gl building an open field treb there or how about that air keep where many trebs can only be placed where they can killed by siege if you want to hit the keep(the defenders will always be higher up then you meaning its much easier for them to counter treb as well).

Lapiy.7160:

Entenkommando.5208:

I really like the idea of heavy defense. It should be like that. If you want to take the one any only big enemy keep you are supposed to take more than 2 minutes.
Attack with trebs from far enough – no mokittenamage. Take omegas if you wanna go full force – they can destroy canons and attack from range.

You will have to think differently than just rushing through gates without a defenders chance to even arrive at the keep. Take your time, drain their supplies until their keeps look like Swiss cheese and they are forced to fight until the last man to hold their keep. . That is what wvw should be like.

It’s called siege weapon not rush weapon.

What I am worried about is that atm it takes almost 2 hours to take something fully upgraded keep vs a defensive server and vs defensive servers its very hard to get fights at all without breaking into there keep. If you have a 40 man zerg there to stop them of just pushing on you and driving you out then about 30 of the 40 people will have NOTHING to do during most of the siege(witch will most likely last 3+ hours in the new maps). I feel like people need to take into account the fun factor and sitting around for 2 hours to break into inner is not fun for most people unless you are actively doing something and at most you will be blasting waters, spamming emotes at the defenders and auto running to camps to resup. Personally I wish the defenders would have to fight at some point instead of sitting on walls spamming one on a ac or something until you get to lord.

+1

And dont forget the unpassable 40+ man enemy blob sitting on 1 very tight chokehold ready to 1 shot everyone who dears try to pass them, amongst with siege in the back.

Sounds like a bag fest to me, lol.

@Tongku

I am from one of those servers that is facing the karma train blob problems. People in my server usualy work/go to school when the german ktrain or who ever is running at that time morning captures and upgrades everything to T3.

We simply have no people during their early morning ktrain and once we actualy come home from work, we are forced to go up against T3 garbage.
Ofcourse during that time the enemies who onw T3 allways have a blob being present also.

Arctisavange.7260:

I can tell you many stories of how 5 defenders have disabled all of my siege for up to ~10 minutes in a row, long enough for the enemy blob to come in and finish the job.

I can tell stories about being that defender.

But seriously, it’s fun. A lot of people claim an individual can make no difference, and that’s true on its own. But being able to delay a larger force for a few minutes on my own and causing them to fail tends to be satisfying. A bit more than tearing down a door and grabbing a champ bag from an undefended tower.

Still, I suppose too much ability to defend could break the pace of the game.

Arctisavange.7260:

How do trebs make a 50+ man blob a bigger threat?

perhaps you should question your own commanding skills before assuming you know everything and i know nothing. the fact that you ask this question means you have a lot of thinking to do about how you 1) attack an objective your enemy really wants to keep or 2) eliminate a kill zone to level the playing field.

I’m loving the fact that now you can actually defend in this game! Defending is much more fun and satisfying than running around the map pvdooring keeps and towers.

Thank you ArenaNet for finally thinking of us defenders! =)

Just one question…. What the problem to take 1H to take a T3 keep with plenty of defenser inside ?!?
It’s ok ! They need probably 6/8 H to fully upgrade this keep, they have spent plenty of gold for the upgrade, the siege and they use time to defend it.
1H to take something like this is good.

If it’s to boring for you just go KT elsewhere, on other BL, on EB or somewhere else on the same map.
You say yourself that this keep was the last thing the ennemy had…. It’s ok that they defend it as long as they can….

No seriously I really don’t see where is the problem….
And if people with you are to bored because they can’t KT then they should move to eotm…

Considering all the changes coming with HoT I’m kind of glad I stopped commanding nightshifts a while ago. With our tiny nightcrew consisting often of only 5-10 people we sometimes had trouble to even build 2 superior rams. No kittening way we could have build acs and ballistas to deal with canons or mortars all the time.

Defenders should have a large advantage over attackers but given the way the game works that advantage rarely materializes. Defenders are mostly kept from engaging due to long range staff skills of attackers.

At least half the classes cannot actively engage in defense since getting pulled is always a threat. Very odd to have a longbow in hand and have to creep right to the edge to use it.

volpenvieh.3201:

No kittening way we could have build acs and ballistas to deal with canons or mortars all the time.

Yeah that 30 extra supply is a total deal killer when trying to flip a tower/keep.

volpenvieh.3201:

With our tiny nightcrew consisting often of only 5-10 people we sometimes had trouble to even build 2 superior rams.

… then why even try it? Build an omega golem at a camp, run around and cap. Or build 2 normal rams. Where you in a hurry to cap things in or what?

I dont quite see the point of a nightcrew arguing the trouble of building rams to cap keeps defended by pretty much no one.

Nighttime doesn’t mean that there aren’t any players defending, especially when you’re up against other servers that do have a strong night crew. However if you aren’t able to take out siege with casters and don’t have extra supply for acs/ballistas then yes, that’s a problem. I smell people from k-train server with the “what’s an extra 30 supply” and “build an omega and capture everything”-attitude.

Why did I bother with such a small crew? Because I cared about my server and it was fun to outsmart the blobs.

Didn’t read all of it. But on the subject of automatic upgrades, defenders, “offensive” (I think you mean PvD with the way you used the word) commanders and scouts, I see the new system being nothing but healthy for WvW. Automatic upgrades will make structures easier to defend and will be less money out of a scouts pocket. Gates only taking siege damage just means you can’t PvD a gate down when your rams are killed and that’s how it should be anyway… Rams have a ton of health and even if you pelt them with arrow carts for a solid 3 – 5 minutes they sometimes manage to continue living. I think a defender(s) should be rewarded by killing the rams with denying the attackers the ability to continue damaging the gate. There have been times in the past where I’ve been in zergs so large our commander won’t drop rams, we’ll literally just stack tight on the gate and melt it with player damage, it’s pretty nuts how fast they’ll die too with enough players.

Currently defending is unrewarding and often times totally useless as well. Unless you absolutely pack the structure with siege, the attackers will get through quite easily. Automatic upgrades are just going to mean that zergs will no longer be able to faceroll maps all day and will have to actually put some thought in to how they’re going to approach something. The commanders’ worth their salt will continue to be successful because they’ll know how to take sieged/upgraded structures effectively while the PvD commanders will be scratching their heads just throwing rams/catas over and over until they win.

I see there being some possible disadvantages to the new system as well but I’m not the kind of person to speculate. I’d rather wait and see what it’s really like before making any kind of judgement so we’ll see tomorrow… If it sucks, I’m sure I’ll rant about it somewhere. If it’s great, then great. Less PvD ktrain, more fight, roam, strategy.

Entenkommando.5208:

I really like the idea of heavy defense. It should be like that. If you want to take the one any only big enemy keep you are supposed to take more than 2 minutes.
Attack with trebs from far enough – no mokittenamage. Take omegas if you wanna go full force – they can destroy canons and attack from range.

You will have to think differently than just rushing through gates without a defenders chance to even arrive at the keep. Take your time, drain their supplies until their keeps look like Swiss cheese and they are forced to fight until the last man to hold their keep. . That is what wvw should be like.

It’s called siege weapon not rush weapon.

AGREED. And I’m glad there are still people who think this way. The best WvW fights are the ones that last for hours. I’m tired of just stacking a 60+ man zerg and blobbing everything on the map. There’s just no “f_ck yeahhhhhhhhhhh!” feeling when you finally succeed because success only takes like 5 – 10 minutes most times. But when a fight just keeps going on and on and you finally come out victorious it feels so kitten good…

Sometimes I hate Dragonbrand for building 3847293847329 AC inside of anything they capture but at the same time it can be fun trying to take things from them because honestly they’re one of the few servers that cling to what ever they own until their last breath.

volpenvieh.3201:

Nighttime doesn’t mean that there aren’t any players defending, especially when you’re up against other servers that do have a strong night crew. However if you aren’t able to take out siege with casters and don’t have extra supply for acs/ballistas then yes, that’s a problem. I smell people from k-train server with the “what’s an extra 30 supply” and “build an omega and capture everything”-attitude.

Why did I bother with such a small crew? Because I cared about my server and it was fun to outsmart the blobs.

If its defended by equal numbers then yes, 5-10 people may have trouble capping a keep. Thats not a nighttime issue. Daytime, its would be the exact same thing…. well, except more dangerous since its a higher chance even more defenders will come.

Dawdler.8521:

If its defended by equal numbers then yes, 5-10 people may have trouble capping a keep. Thats not a nighttime issue. Daytime, its would be the exact same thing…. well, except more dangerous since its a higher chance even more defenders will come.

You’re perfectly right, of course it’s also a daytime problem :-) I just wanted to mention my personal experience before people claim that I have no idea what I’m talking about as it happened in other topics.
I guess smallscale/ roaming in general will be more difficult, alo due to the higher population of PvE creatures (fire eles and stuff like that) etc. But I’ll guess we’re about to find out. Maybe it’s not as bad as it sounds afterall.

But yes, I also love the buff where gates can only get siege damage. Lost too many keeps because zergs PvDed gates after they rand out of supplies.

Getting inside of the keeps is really fun.
What I dislike the most is how incredibly easy it is to defend the circle, but I hope this gets a bit better with the bigger map so you can’t constantly run from spawn.

Fighting Vizunah in the past (the best eu server in terms of defense) I remember fighting 8-10 hours straight inside the garrison Lord room. But on the other hand this is where the real farm starts xD

Arctisavange.7260:

insanemaniac.2456:

it sounds like op wants to be able to brute force his way into objectives without regard to the existence of defenders, simply because he assumes his group will outnumber them.

Does this look like fun and brute force?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgVJ3i7WuFM

Tell me step by step what was i forced to do to finaly flip it and if you anwser correctly, you can allready see the pain im talking about.

Didn’t watched the whole thing, skipped through it, not that matter anymore since the Alpine borderlands is gone but, with such zerg, could have built 2 trebs on top of the wall to clear all the inner siege and supress while working on the gates. That would force the defense to react and, probably, go out to take down your siege and fight.

“But in the current WvW you are often faced to downgrade towers/keeps if you want to pull out more fights where enemies dont hide behind walls. That being said and what i also said earlier, it will be a big discomfort for a large amount of players.”

well. Wvw is done of attacking and defending.

can’t be only attacking nor only defending.

5 defending vs a zerg of 50+ attacking was impossible 2 years ago to defend, as it will be with hot (as now).

numbers still do the difference, kamikaze or not style, mortars, cannon, rams, siege disabler.

i just see a good thing, kitten you are behind a wall, and must have some advantages in being in 5 defending vs 20 outside.

(after 23rd june patch and ac line of sight, even if 20 inside made it ridiculos to defend vs 20: check line of sight of elementalist and rangers and engis and necro deathshroud that steals life everywhere!)

Having played it for a bit, I retract my earlier posts. Attackers are going to have it rough if a keep has a few players that know what they are doing. On the flip side servers that are strong will practically dominate maps thanks to the auto-upgrades and fast WPs.