Guild Wars 2

It’s just build balance catching up. Take away trapper runes (so no more perma-stealth condi-thieves), make immob have more of an impact / resistance less of one. Take food away / oils away and nerf things like perplex / confusion to reasonable levels (to get rid of the condi spam).

Basically with HoT the counterplay is gone for a lot of classes. So everyone just runs ‘cancer’ builds and flips empty camps because that’s the most rewarding path.

The issue of roaming has been on my mind a lot recently. Solo-roaming is next to impossible without some cheap disengagement strategy. Recently I have been roaming on a trapper thief not because I want to, but because if I don’t I am run down and taken out by the first 3+ team that spots me. The saying is true, theres safety in numbers…

What to do about this will not be easy. Theres two ways to fix it in my opinion. Either make it so people are rarely by themselves by directing or encouraging people to gather. The second way is to give abilities that allow small battles to be less dependant on numbers. I have no idea how to implement either of thse, but the second one would be harder to implement and better in the long run.

JemL.3501:

Jayne.9251:

JemL.3501:

eotm activity count towards wvw activity, so yes they are the ones to blame from the start

Someone’s been lying to you. EoTM in fact does not count towards pop count. The devs have said that on numerous occasions.

it does count

Based on what?

Kovu.7560:

This subforum has more salt than the actual salt forum.

~ Kovu

The other forum is dying now that the majority of people migrated to the discord.

JemL.3501:

Jayne.9251:

JemL.3501:

eotm activity count towards wvw activity, so yes they are the ones to blame from the start

Someone’s been lying to you. EoTM in fact does not count towards pop count. The devs have said that on numerous occasions.

it does count

We have developer word to support that it doesn’t count.
What do you have to support your theory that it does?

it does count, it its linked to wvw instance, , there is three modes only, pve, wvw and spvp, anything inside of each instance is linked activity they can not see if you are inside eotm or in ebg, they cant not see if you are inside the ebg puzzle too, you are in a separate map but you are inside the intance, inside the game mode, they do somekind of magical math to come with numbers plus what they see as players and who knows if they listen the server they are playing it to persue the opening and closing of server transfers

developer word

JemL.3501:

it does count, it its linked to wvw instance, , there is three modes only, pve, wvw and spvp, anything inside of each instance is linked activity they can not see if you are inside eotm or in ebg, they cant not see if you are inside the ebg puzzle too, you are in a separate map but you are inside the intance, inside the game mode, they do somekind of magical math to come with numbers plus what they see as players and who knows if they listen the server they are playing it to persue the opening and closing of server transfers

developer word

I rather belive in the developer than in a random no-name player that have nothing to backup his claims.

Jeknar.6184:

I rather belive in the developer than in a random no-name player that have nothing to backup his claims.

same goes for you

Any links to the actual dev comments being referenced?

Did OP reposted this? I remember seeing familiar topic.

How many complains about roaming are there in the forums when compared to things like unbalance population, skills, runes, sigil and lacks of development?

This thread context seems not so relevant to the title.

Here’s a red post that mentions population calculation

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Additional-World-Linking-Information

For those that still can’t find the part, I’ll highlight it for you.

Tyler Bearce.3427:

Chris and I just made several informative posts about World Linking on Reddit. I’m reposting them here.

On Population Caps

Some information behind the current server population cap behavior:
Many may already know this bit, but for anyone else who doesn’t: world population is determined by activity level in WvW (Edge of the Mists and Obsidian Sanctum don’t count).

snip

Red Post on searching the forums

SkyShroud.2865:

Did OP reposted this? I remember seeing familiar topic.

How many complains about roaming are there in the forums when compared to things like unbalance population, skills, runes, sigil and lacks of development?

This thread context seems not so relevant to the title.

OP is one of the top roamers EU.

So much so that people will run to avoid fighting him — or will call the entire map blob to squash him.

We still have a duelling date Broski. Remember that. Be gentle.

Swam, thanks for finding that link. I tried to look last night because I knew someone would inevitably argue “well show me the post” regardless of how many players were telling him he’s wrong.

JemL.3501:

Jeknar.6184:

I rather belive in the developer than in a random no-name player that have nothing to backup his claims.

same goes for you

Except there is the word of the developers on this very forum that it isn’t counted.

Well a large rework might help …

Drop EB. Rework it as third border map so we have three afterwards that rotate.
Give rewards for controlign the map. The more structures a side controls the more reward track progress is gained. And this very noticeable.
Make supplies count much more. Increase the defence of towers significant (more and faster guard spawing up to a level where a group can´t take it easy). Depending on camps controled. If you have all camps a tower walls are swarmed by defending guards.
Drop righteous indignation down to three minutes.

Maybe this brings a bit more pepper ….

Wolfric.9380:

Drop EB.

Why drop the most popular map instead of working in the less popular ones? I don’t even play EBG anymore but I’m against anything that meddle with it until the borderlands are played as much.

Wolfric.9380:

Drop EB. Rework it as third border map so we have three afterwards that rotate.

Please refrain from ever posting in the wvw forums ever again, thank you.

If any maps should be reworked or made ever again, they should be made like ebg not a borderland map.

morrolan.9608:

JemL.3501:

Jeknar.6184:

I rather belive in the developer than in a random no-name player that have nothing to backup his claims.

same goes for you

Except there is the word of the developers on this very forum that it isn’t counted.

So where’s the link? there’s a link for the other side.

Xenesis.6389:

Wolfric.9380:

Drop EB. Rework it as third border map so we have three afterwards that rotate.

Please refrain from ever posting in the wvw forums ever again, thank you.

If any maps should be reworked or made ever again, they should be made like ebg not a borderland map.

morrolan.9608:

JemL.3501:

Jeknar.6184:

I rather belive in the developer than in a random no-name player that have nothing to backup his claims.

same goes for you

Except there is the word of the developers on this very forum that it isn’t counted.

So where’s the link? there’s a link for the other side.

Five posts above yours.

Ashen.2907:

Five posts above yours.

Oh lol I read his post wrong thought he said it is counted and wanted to see the counter quote. My bad sorry morrolan.

Xenesis.6389:

Ashen.2907:

Five posts above yours.

Oh lol I read his post wrong thought he said it is counted and wanted to see the counter quote. My bad sorry morrolan.

Kitten happens. : )

Xenesis.6389:

Ashen.2907:

Five posts above yours.

Oh lol I read his post wrong thought he said it is counted and wanted to see the counter quote. My bad sorry morrolan.

No problem :-)

I don’t get the “cheesey builds” complaints. I’ve mained ranger for 4 years and made the best druid build I could come up (without crafting some insanely expensive new armor) because I don’t want to hamstring myself with a bad build. Am I playing a cheesey build? Most people say yes for no other reason than I main ranger.

Do you want me to play an axe/axe soldier’s core ranger with 2 pig pets so we can have a fair fight?

The only cheesey builds are the ones made for the sole purpose of trolling, like those perma stealth condi trap thieves or the perma evade d/d thieves. If someone is legit trying to kill me and not just annoy people, I’ll fight them.

Xenesis.6389:

If any maps should be reworked or made ever again, they should be made like ebg not a borderland map.

No, they should actually be EB IMO.

Not to improve the gameplay or anything, just to watch the hilarity ensue.

Imagine all the confused zergers.

Go to EB on logon gogogo even if its 80 man queue! Wait there are 4 EB? Where should I queue? Where do I go?! What will I do?!?! Who’s commanding EB? No not that EB, the EB I’m on!!! There’s no commander here! What, no there is a commander here why are people saying there is no commander on EB? We’re loosing SM!!! What do you mean “which SM”?! They are right outside Anza! No not that Anza, this Anza ffs!

Please Anet, make it happen. If only for a weekend.

Wvw needs more maps with open area objectives to spread players out and to be more roaming group friendly.

The July 2015 specialization change patch and the community asking for more over powered elite specs’ brought WvW roaming to where it is now. The OP of this thread mentions grouping up and hiding near objective portals as the culprit of the progression of the culture of the WvW game mode, however I disagree. Naturally, if you cannot beat the other guy, in a game where there are guilds of people, you call on a group to help. The issue shows itself when those more people come, as you quickly realize that builds that you once ran are now obsolete or counter a significantly less amount of compositions that exist in the game mode. These over powered elite spec’s pigeonhole the bulk of players into basing their builds off these spec’s, while the July 2015 patch introduced a less selective and personalized way of choosing traits, which resulted in just that: A less selective and personalized way of choosing traits.

We are stuck waiting on Anet to release the second expansion pack in the hopes that the new elite specs add build variety and viability of classes in WvW. I do not believe that even a tremendous amount of balancing and developer attention towards the game mode would do the community any good -that isn’t to say that there are not skill balance issues out there, because there are and they’ve been mentioned on this forum; however, with all the tweaks Anet could make now, they would only serve as a ‘bandaid’ until we get new content.

So, with the hopes of the next expansion in mind, I hope Anet will allow skill, skill here meaning the ability of a player to do something well, to perform over the current power creep that comes with having little variety, and that they take my opinion over that of the OP’s, because I believe roaming in WvW, despite the tower huggers and gank-squads, is fixable.

Dawdler.8521:

Xenesis.6389:

If any maps should be reworked or made ever again, they should be made like ebg not a borderland map.

No, they should actually be EB IMO.

Not to improve the gameplay or anything, just to watch the hilarity ensue.

Imagine all the confused zergers.

Go to EB on logon gogogo even if its 80 man queue! Wait there are 4 EB? Where should I queue? Where do I go?! What will I do?!?! Who’s commanding EB? No not that EB, the EB I’m on!!! There’s no commander here! What, no there is a commander here why are people saying there is no commander on EB? We’re loosing SM!!! What do you mean “which SM”?! They are right outside Anza! No not that Anza, this Anza ffs!

Please Anet, make it happen. If only for a weekend.

Lol actually I think it was suggested in one of the map threads for them to try out ebg as the bl map for a week and make alpine or eotm as the ebg map. Although they could do it with just 3 maps, since even the full servers these days are only managing 2-3 map queues on reset night.

Red would have a “slight” advantage for the alpine map, depending on how much they would get double teamed. But yeah the map callouts would be hilariously confusing as hell, although they have the channels labeled now.

Roy G Biv.1625:

The July 2015 specialization change patch and the community asking for more over powered elite specs’ brought WvW roaming to where it is now.

Wait… wut?

Players were calling for new weapons and maybe a new class, I’m pretty sure the competitive community wouldn’t be calling for overpowered specs. In fact they were content that Anet said they would make the new elite specs on par with the old ones, to which they never have done.

The june 23rd 2015 patch, basically a pre-load of the re-balancing traits with the new elites and changes to conditions coming with the expansion, really messed up this game.

Xenesis.6389:

Roy G Biv.1625:

The July 2015 specialization change patch and the community asking for more over powered elite specs’ brought WvW roaming to where it is now.

Wait… wut?

Players were calling for new weapons and maybe a new class, I’m pretty sure the competitive community wouldn’t be calling for overpowered specs. In fact they were content that Anet said they would make the new elite specs on par with the old ones, to which they never have done.

The june 23rd 2015 patch, basically a pre-load of the re-balancing traits with the new elites and changes to conditions coming with the expansion, really messed up this game.

When the elite specs arrived I distinctly remember the community demanding buffs for some of them (tempest, dh, and more). The Tempest demo dev died to svanir/chieftain for pete’s sake. The concerns weren’t unfounded.

The community may not have wanted to make the specs OP but they did contribute to the Elite Specs no longer being side-grades as advertised.

Also I’m fairly certain you two are talking about the same patch.

They wanted them fixed not overpowered, a couple specs were lackluster compared to the others. Everyone wants the spec they play to be competitive with every other one, of course there’s the ones that want it to destroy everyone else, but those are the crazy outliners that don’t care about anything but themselves getting easy wins.

Anet also said they would keep them in line with the older specs, and they sure as hell didn’t.

Yes we are talking about the same patch, the one that took the game down the path in ruining combat balance.

Xenesis.6389:

They wanted them fixed not overpowered, a couple specs were lackluster compared to the others. Everyone wants the spec they play to be competitive with every other one, of course there’s the ones that want it to destroy everyone else, but those are the crazy outliners that don’t care about anything but themselves getting easy wins.

Anet also said they would keep them in line with the older specs, and they sure as hell didn’t.

Yes we are talking about the same patch, the one that took the game down the path in ruining combat balance.

I literally addressed all of this in my response. Of course the players thought they were fixing their classes, but in many cases they were misguided. It led to what we have today. Arenanet listened to their playerbase a little too well when Elite Specs were being introduced.

At this point you’re just belligerently agreeing with people. It’s not a huge jump in logic to realize that people didn’t deliberately make their class op, but that was essentially the end result. Come to think of it I’m not sure where you even disagreed with the other poster when you started with “wait… wut.”

Just want to say it’s nice to see maturity from Xenesis, Ashen and Morrolan, when someone makes a mistake like that usually people go for the throat so to say. Nice to see people admit they can be wrong and others not be a kitten about it.

@BigEvs, in some ways the elite specs are overturned due to player feedback however the players were also in some ways mislead. It’s like how you’re not supposed to use leading questions if you want anyone in the world to not laugh at you in research and ANet certainly did something akin to leading questions.

I remember there was a discussion about gravity well and it’s 3 CCS in the mesmer forum, most would agree that the amount of CC it had was way too strong. However most also agreed that the float effect was so effin awesome that no-one wanted to see it go and there wasn’t a whole lot of ways around it. I guess they could have got rid of the initial knockdown and it have been a quick daze, then float then pull inward but it’s still 3 CC.

Still a lot of what was made too strong people didn’t expect the far too strong aspects to go through. Most people expected CoR on rev to be a 8s cool down, would have expected true shot to be 8s not stay at 4 etc but that didn’t happen.

Oh right they just followed what the community threw at them and made the elite specs overpowered, they have no control over balance because of the players.

Asking for buffs doesn’t automatically mean asking to be overpowered.

Listened to their player base too well, LOL thanks for the laugh.

P.S it’s been almost a year and half and they’ve barely touched balancing, games like WoW are still balancing specs every single patch even to just tweak a number here and there. Anet knows the specs are op over the base classes, and they’ve left it like that to sell the expansion, pure and simple.

Xenesis.6389:

Oh right they just followed what the community threw at them and made the elite specs overpowered, they have no control over balance because of the players.

Asking for buffs doesn’t automatically mean asking to be overpowered.

Listened to their player base too well, LOL thanks for the laugh.

You’re putting words in my mouth, and over simplifying the argument to serve your point (which you still haven’t made btw).

It is most certainly possible to listen to the community too well, as the players aren’t all-knowing about what balance decisions need to be made. This was a case of the players getting their way at too many junctions. Anet has control, I never said they don’t lol. They just didn’t exercise it very well with the release of the elite specs (this is where apharma’s point comes in, Anet did not reconcile their goals with the players’).

When did I imply the process was automatic btw?

It’s so ironic that you were just commended for your maturity in discussion only to immediately reply with… that drivel lol.

You said it yourself, players were asking for “buffs” for their classes like the tempest that showed itself to be weak. Asking to be overpower would be a class that is already on top of the food chain and asking for more buffs, in which case it’s up to Anet to refuse and explain if they want, why those changes are not needed.

Now what you and Roy are saying is it’s the players fault for the elite specs being overpowered because of their requests, and really it’s just the players role to provide feedback however insane it might be. Anet has the final judgement in balancing, a spec is overpowered because Anet chose to implement it that way. You can throw 20 different crazy requests at them, and if they decide to implement all 20 without concern over balancing that’s Anet’s fault, not the player.

Anet are the ones that are suppose to have a vision for the class and how it should perform, they can take request from players for improvements, as is done with every single game out there, but it’s up to them to filter and implement the appropriate fixes if needed. Of the 20 crazy requests if maybe 2 sound reasonable for balance, then maybe they can implement it and see how it goes.

If the players were misguided in their requests then so was Anet for listening and implementing changes that made those specs overpowered, but ultimately it’s the developers fault for making changes to new traits, new specs, new overall combat changes, and then not even giving a kitten for over a year on how they have affected the game.

Players will always ask for buffs or changes to a class whether it under or over performing, performance which is seen differently to every player playing or not playing that class. Roy said the community asked for overpowered specs, I say they asked for fixes.

Developers are the ones that are suppose to judge if a class is under or over performing and then implement appropriate changes. Anet stated they would try to keep the elite specs in line with old specs, they failed to do so and probably for the simple reason to keep selling the expansion.

Bottom line is the overpowered elite specs is the fault of Anet, not the community, they asked for balance fixes which to this day they are still asking for.

Listening doesnt cause the problem. Acting without careful consideration and analysis of the potential consequences for those actions does.

When my niece asked for every sugary treat on display at the amusement park I listened. I then said no to most of it. She did enjoy the one I bought for her though, and didnt have a stomache ache later.

Xenesis.6389:

You said it yourself, players were asking for “buffs” for their classes like the tempest that showed itself to be weak. Asking to be overpower would be a class that is already on top of the food chain and asking for more buffs, in which case it’s up to Anet to refuse and explain if they want, why those changes are not needed.

Now what you and Roy are saying is it’s the players fault for the elite specs being overpowered because of their requests, and really it’s just the players role to provide feedback however insane it might be. Anet has the final judgement in balancing, a spec is overpowered because Anet chose to implement it that way. You can throw 20 different crazy requests at them, and if they decide to implement all 20 without concern over balancing that’s Anet’s fault, not the player.

Anet are the ones that are suppose to have a vision for the class and how it should perform, they can take request from players for improvements, as is done with every single game out there, but it’s up to them to filter and implement the appropriate fixes if needed. Of the 20 crazy requests if maybe 2 sound reasonable for balance, then maybe they can implement it and see how it goes.

If the players were misguided in their requests then so was Anet for listening and implementing changes that made those specs overpowered, but ultimately it’s the developers fault for making changes to new traits, new specs, new overall combat changes, and then not even giving a kitten for over a year on how they have affected the game.

Players will always ask for buffs or changes to a class whether it under or over performing, performance which is seen differently to every player playing or not playing that class. Roy said the community asked for overpowered specs, I say they asked for fixes.

Developers are the ones that are suppose to judge if a class is under or over performing and then implement appropriate changes. Anet stated they would try to keep the elite specs in line with old specs, they failed to do so and probably for the simple reason to keep selling the expansion.

Bottom line is the overpowered elite specs is the fault of Anet, not the community, they asked for balance fixes which to this day they are still asking for.

Thanks for the spot-check on the patch date.

On the topic of WvW and what OP said, I still believe my response is relevant and sound.

Now on to this knot you’ve tangled yourself in: You ought to skim over the forum posts from the beta tests to realize where I’m coming from when I say the community asked for these over powered spec’s. What we’re having here is a difference of opinion: You believe Anet is more or less fully responsible for the current state and I believe players influence game development.

Understand that the end goal of my original post argued that it’s not the players that are ruining roaming, but the lack of variety in choice of builds that doesn’t allow. You have your opinion, acknowledged. I have mine. Let’s get this thread back on topic.

Xenesis.6389:

Dawdler.8521:

Xenesis.6389:

If any maps should be reworked or made ever again, they should be made like ebg not a borderland map.

No, they should actually be EB IMO.

Not to improve the gameplay or anything, just to watch the hilarity ensue.

Imagine all the confused zergers.

Go to EB on logon gogogo even if its 80 man queue! Wait there are 4 EB? Where should I queue? Where do I go?! What will I do?!?! Who’s commanding EB? No not that EB, the EB I’m on!!! There’s no commander here! What, no there is a commander here why are people saying there is no commander on EB? We’re loosing SM!!! What do you mean “which SM”?! They are right outside Anza! No not that Anza, this Anza ffs!

Please Anet, make it happen. If only for a weekend.

Lol actually I think it was suggested in one of the map threads for them to try out ebg as the bl map for a week and make alpine or eotm as the ebg map. Although they could do it with just 3 maps, since even the full servers these days are only managing 2-3 map queues on reset night.

Red would have a “slight” advantage for the alpine map, depending on how much they would get double teamed. But yeah the map callouts would be hilariously confusing as hell, although they have the channels labeled now.

Well, if we would have several EBGs, they could problably give different keeps to each team in different maps. Like Red as Valley, Blue as Lowlands and Green as Overlook in one and Red as Lowlands, Blue as Overlook and Green as Valley on the other.

Honestly, it been suggested quite a few times that Arena Net should scrap the “Home Borderland” concept althogether and just make more 3-way maps like EBG. Desert Borderland tried to be a mix of both and it didn’t went well, but I’m sure that if they go on the full concept of EBG, it can be quite a sucess.

It’s called becoming jaded. The player base that didn’t leave changed and the good player base quit which is entirely because of the crappy job Anet did in handling this game mode.

morrolan.9608:

JemL.3501:

Jeknar.6184:

I rather belive in the developer than in a random no-name player that have nothing to backup his claims.

same goes for you

Except there is the word of the developers on this very forum that it isn’t counted.

good to see they typed what some individuals wanted to read so they would calm down like politicians

developer words

JemL.3501:

morrolan.9608:

JemL.3501:

Jeknar.6184:

I rather belive in the developer than in a random no-name player that have nothing to backup his claims.

same goes for you

Except there is the word of the developers on this very forum that it isn’t counted.

good to see they typed what some individuals wanted to read so they would calm down like politicians

developer words

Oh was it you that dropped this?

Jayne.9251:

JemL.3501:

morrolan.9608:

JemL.3501:

Jeknar.6184:

I rather belive in the developer than in a random no-name player that have nothing to backup his claims.

same goes for you

Except there is the word of the developers on this very forum that it isn’t counted.

good to see they typed what some individuals wanted to read so they would calm down like politicians

developer words

Oh was it you that dropped this?

Can I have parts 1-3 please?

Xenesis.6389:

P.S it’s been almost a year and half and they’ve barely touched balancing, games like WoW are still balancing specs every single patch even to just tweak a number here and there. Anet knows the specs are op over the base classes, and they’ve left it like that to sell the expansion, pure and simple.

Not only they’re been focusing to the next expansion, but also PvP has been more focused to balance patches, because it’s easier to do that.

Let’s face it, WvW has become more chaos because of people’s nasty behavior and OP builds that will ruins any normal players and even mocking them. Any classes/gears update that is intetended to use for PvE mode will also impact to WvW.

Sooner or later, people will eventually get bored of meta game and will rather to play other mode (or game) than the clusterkitten battlefield that is called EB.

That, my friend, is how WvW will ends.

The reason i stop play gw2 since 6 months was the 25 June patch, changing the condi dmg was the worst thing to do, condi dmg is for a turn based combat, not for an action based combat, and changing the trait system, wich made the build diversity flat and boring, no more skill involved in gameplay, only build matters.