Guild Wars 2

Condi needs to be fixed for wvw. Im so done with the amount of condi someone can put on you and you cant do anything about it. Please make Vitality or something lessen condi damage. Its just so bullkitten to deal with PLease fix anet

Zerg, roaming, class? There are lots of options to absorb condi dmg. Vitality already increase your defense against it since you got more HP. If you run full zerker with zero condi removal… well that’s your own fault.

I’m not sure if this is a WvW only problem, but I do know that if I’m roaming and meet a condi reaper, whether or not I have a chance in hell depends on if I can switch to full resistance skills (warrior). Even with the ability to clear 5+ condis fairly quickly and a few more every ~10 seconds, it doesn’t help when they whack me with literally every condition in the game and I have to hope the right ones get removed right away or I’m screwed.

Of course, they often survive way longer than my resistance and then things get really hairy since dodging condi applications is all but impossible.

This might just be a Reaper issue though—they’re insanely powerful in 1v1 fights.

Sviel.7493:

I’m not sure if this is a WvW only problem, but I do know that if I’m roaming and meet a condi reaper, whether or not I have a chance in hell depends on if I can switch to full resistance skills (warrior). Even with the ability to clear 5+ condis fairly quickly and a few more every ~10 seconds, it doesn’t help when they whack me with literally every condition in the game and I have to hope the right ones get removed right away or I’m screwed.

Of course, they often survive way longer than my resistance and then things get really hairy since dodging condi applications is all but impossible.

This might just be a Reaper issue though—they’re insanely powerful in 1v1 fights.

The biggest thing when fighting a reaper as a warrior is knowing when to engage/disengage…reaper is strong but anytime they go into reaper shroud create space and that will severly weaken the reaper in 1v1s and then after they leave shroud that is your time to spike your damage…if you play rifle or lb utilize your range if not utilize your leaps and escapes

That’s what I do, but when they can apply the condis from range then I’m kind of out of luck.

I can have a decent chance against a power reaper assuming that I don’t have to hold a circle and they don’t have any NPCs to rally/build shroud off of.

Lack of proper balance is the real problem here. When they buffed conditions and added new stats that are condition oriented, they did not do a good job balancing it out with cleanses, or any kind of reduction in condition damage across professions. There is just not enough cleanses that can keep up with the insane amount of condition spam that can be inflicted, most skills that remove conditions just remove 1 maybe 2 and have long cooldowns, its just completely unbalanced and has little counter. It is less of an issue in zergs because every group is essentially running anti condition gear/food to lessen the impact, primarily because of the spamability of conditions. One other issue is that there are so many conditions, and some have different types of effects which makes it harder to choose which to cleanse (if you even have the choice, most are just random cleanses) and when to cleanse.. do you use your cleanse on a damaging condition or on a soft cc like immobilize which can get you killed easily. So basically, lack of balance is to blame.

The game has begin to be annoying to play with the stab change…. Then the condi burst… The power buff… And finally HoT…
The balance is broken, the melee are dead… And with HoT small guild are dead too..
Zerg is only about pirate ship…

Thx anet to break your own game.

Sich.7103:

The game has begin to be annoying to play with the stab change…. Then the condi burst… The power buff… And finally HoT…
The balance is broken, the melee are dead… And with HoT small guild are dead too..
Zerg is only about pirate ship…

Thx anet to break your own game.

Its basically because they decided not to split skill balance for the 3 gamemodes, which is partly understandable, but its not like they would have to do this for every skill, trait etc. They pretty much ignored wvw, when it came to balance, stab changes were centered around pvp, condi changes were centered around pve. Guild changes, just promoted endless grind, which seems to be the theme of HoT…godkitten ed disaster of an “expansion”.

Then again, it’s the only way to counter Boon stacking right now.

CrimsonNeonite.1048:

Then again, it’s the only way to counter Boon stacking right now.

Well the counter to boon stacking is boon removal/conversion, but I understand your point, in a strategic sense it can be. Boons themselves are in an unbalanced state as well, but they at least have some limitations. You can only stack a boon to a certain point from a limited number of sources. With condis, you can basically keep stacking and spamming, some are limited to 25, but others go to 1500 I believe..lol…

Condi balance is out of whack. Reapers in 1v1 are extremely OP right now, but not every class is. The problem is really just 1 or 2 classes and in fact, jsut some select skills / traits on them. Thats for the dinky crap balancing.

Now for WvWvW. Most of you guys posting above only speak of roaming, 1v1s etc. but WvWvW primary purpose is MASSIVE battles. This is the games massive pvp combat mode.

And in massive scale, condis, even reapers are stupidly underpowered due to AOE cleanse spam and AOE resistance, etc. In fact, the only time condis are semi-useful in a zerg is when you are going against pure pugs or someone really stupid who wonders too far and can’t get back into the cleanse range in time.

So while overall condis on some classes could use a bit more balance for the dinky crap (roaming etc.), they actually need a buff for the main function of the game mode.

Thing that has personally stricken me since HOT launched, is just how really useless condis are now in any organized or semi-organized comps. I literally had no choice but to convert all my toons to power builds. This has led me in large part to log into WvW a lot less, as I have been already playing power builds since the game launched.

I would love to run more condi, if it was effective I would.

X T D.6458:

Its basically because they decided not to split skill balance for the 3 gamemodes, which is partly understandable, but its not like they would have to do this for every skill, trait etc. They pretty much ignored wvw, when it came to balance, stab changes were centered around pvp, condi changes were centered around pve. Guild changes, just promoted endless grind, which seems to be the theme of HoT…godkitten ed disaster of an “expansion”.

Yes and no – as far as I have understood pvp now really is separate from the rest of the game modes – the stats scale differently, they don’t have certain runes (perplexity f.e.), the last “balance patch” was just rune shaving.
Anet just needs to realize that the game mode they use to balance everything doesn’t have the rules of the other two anymore – I’m not so sure they know.

@Tongku, as I stated in a previous post, conditions are somewhat less effective for zerg fights because of precautions taken by zergs to mitigate its effects, it doesnt mean conditions are not dangerous. Every organized zerg basically runs gear/food/traits/upgrades/skills etc that are meant to counter conditions, that is why the conditions effects in zergs are less noticable, conditions that dont necessarily rely on damage but more on an actual effect like soft cc’s are still extremely useful even in short bursts with counters to its duration. Keep in mind also the massive spamming of cc’s that just makes the situation even more unbalanced.

@Jana, while PvP is structured differently with its amulet and upgrade system, anet has been balancing the game around it, in a few ways its understandable, aoe cap has 5 targets, pve teams have 5 members (aside from raids) etc, but it just doesnt work to well for wvw, particularily when it comes to large scale fights. A one size fits all approach is just not going to work forever for 3 evolving gamemodes, and anet has to adapt. Apparantly they are working on some wvw specific balancing for the future update so who knows.

Tongku.5326:

Now for WvWvW. Most of you guys posting above only speak of roaming, 1v1s etc. but WvWvW primary purpose is MASSIVE battles. This is the games massive pvp combat mode.

WvW is not only about prime time… During the day it was generally small scale fight, specially on BL. It was few scouts and roamer who hold the map, make the job (upgrade, protect supply / dolly). Those people called EB when the ennemy zerg join the map.

But this was before, now the keep are useless (you can’t own the WP, or you have it at T0), the tower are useless (no tactital advantage, too big). Upgrade are automatic, no more tactical decision to choose wich upgrade to start. No tactical decision to choose between store supply or start upgrade.

All those thing have killed the core WvW population who hold the map during the off peak time. If you add the balance issue you have all the explanation why the core players leave the game. And if some casual player join the map, he will see no one, and will just leave the map, or maybe go to eb…

X T D.6458:

@Jana, while PvP is structured differently with its amulet and upgrade system, anet has been balancing the game around it, in a few ways its understandable, aoe cap has 5 targets, pve teams have 5 members (aside from raids) etc, but it just doesnt work to well for wvw, particularily when it comes to large scale fights. A one size fits all approach is just not going to work forever for 3 evolving gamemodes, and anet has to adapt. Apparantly they are working on some wvw specific balancing for the future update so who knows.

I didn’t really mean zergfight – I’m not that concerned about zerg balance as we’re fighting no matter what anet throws at us. It could be better, yes, but I think class balance right now is more important.
But since pvp has got different rules than the rest of the game – the class balance made in pvp won’t have the same effects in wvw. That was my point.

The WvW specific skills aren’t going to be in the first April patch, I think, but they do have a guy working on them. God help him…

Jana.6831:

X T D.6458:

@Jana, while PvP is structured differently with its amulet and upgrade system, anet has been balancing the game around it, in a few ways its understandable, aoe cap has 5 targets, pve teams have 5 members (aside from raids) etc, but it just doesnt work to well for wvw, particularily when it comes to large scale fights. A one size fits all approach is just not going to work forever for 3 evolving gamemodes, and anet has to adapt. Apparantly they are working on some wvw specific balancing for the future update so who knows.

I didn’t really mean zergfight – I’m not that concerned about zerg balance as we’re fighting no matter what anet throws at us. It could be better, yes, but I think class balance right now is more important.
But since pvp has got different rules than the rest of the game – the class balance made in pvp won’t have the same effects in wvw. That was my point.

Well regardless, zerg fights are a large part of wvw. The stab change for example was basically centered around pvp, however the difference in the build structure is not really a factor in the effect the change has across the game. But I understand the point you are trying to make, but take into account anets attitude towards pvp, they want it to be fast paced and heavily based on reaction time, which is fine. However when you allow skills that can do 10-20k damage go unchecked, because there is no split in balance between pvp and wvw, it just makes the situation worse when it comes to balance. I am not suggesting a complete split for wvw, but for certain things there just needs to be a focus on balancing specifically for wvw, stab and cc’s, condis, boons, etc because it allows for more diverse gameplay with so many more people.

Sviel.7493:

The WvW specific skills aren’t going to be in the first April patch, I think, but they do have a guy working on them. God help him…

Im not sure what the exact timeline is, but at least they are actually acknowledging the need for it.

X T D.6458:

Well regardless, zerg fights are a large part of wvw.

Yes, and zergs are made out of players who can spam traps, who can hurt you with their OP hammer skills, who can insta down you from a 1200 range.

X T D.6458:

But I understand the point you are trying to make, but take into account anets attitude towards pvp, they want it to be fast paced and heavily based on reaction time, which is fine. However when you allow skills that can do 10-20k damage go unchecked, because there is no split in balance between pvp and wvw, it just makes the situation worse when it comes to balance.

And that’s the point – the damage in wvw is immensely higher since June as since then the damage in pvp is scaled completely differently – there’s no correlation between those two game mode anymore. In wvw my backstab is still one of the top 5 dmg skills, in pvp it’s not even top 10. So, what seems ok in pvp is completely OP in wvw.

Reapers can be killed easily and I have done so with my power Scrapper and Druid. The issue is that so many people are playing ‘cheese’ builds like the perplexity mesmer’s that can dish out 25 stacks of confusion at once (now this is ridiculous).

Burning was supposed the be the highest damage condi (as it was in GW1) but it isn’t. Confusion is and that is the problem.

I have an issue with builds that spam condi’s, i play a druid and even i cant surive a condi mez or a condi reaper. If your 3 or 4 man roaming group runs in to a group running 2 or more condi people your kittened. It needs looking at or capping condi back to 25 stacks. Its to cheese to fight against it.

Can’t remember having more than 25 stacks of any condi on me, ever. And i’m playing a build with little condi cleanse most of the time. Maybe you shouldn’t facetank everything …

There are also only very few condibuilds which are really problematic, imo there are more powerbuilds which needs nerfs too. It is more a class/trait/skill (im)balance problem, not a condi problem in general.

The problem is – Conditions damage is not what they say it is.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Condition_Damage

Link to WIKI which is supposed to be what the skills damage at and right now Confusion seems to be the highest in damage in came, not burning or Chill.

Mypinkbunny.4513:

I have an issue with builds that spam condi’s, i play a druid and even i cant surive a condi mez or a condi reaper. If your 3 or 4 man roaming group runs in to a group running 2 or more condi people your kittened. It needs looking at or capping condi back to 25 stacks. Its to cheese to fight against it.

My druid runs circles around condi reapers. This isn’t SPvP where you are trying to contest a point, keep your distance, use your stealth, keep your pets in between the reaper and yourself. They take time to die because of DS but druid has the advantage in that fight.

reapers im ok at its more the mez who can apply like 10 stack of confusion in like 2 seconds, its builds like this they need to look at. Even in small roaming groups its better to run a condi group then power as you can normal just faceroll

I rarely waste my time with a condi mez. I’ll poke at them and if they are halfway competent I just cleanse and move on. They can’t chase you down to kill you.

I see them the same way I see full soldier daredevils, or the old nike warriors. They are more of an annoyance than they are dangerous. They are trollish builds that are only effective if you play their game.

Mypinkbunny.4513:

reapers im ok at its more the mez who can apply like 10 stack of confusion in like 2 seconds, its builds like this they need to look at. Even in small roaming groups its better to run a condi group then power as you can normal just faceroll

Try 25 stacks…..

ahhhh i love this topic ^^.
Let me start with the “welcome to the Condi wars 2”, a morb affecting pvp environment since june patch 2015, in fact in the last year i’ve criticize the whole condition dmg in any possible way, and i cant find any way to make developers understand that in an action combat mmo, condition dmg has no place, by doing a simple comparison, even in FFVIII wich was a turned based rpg, condition wasnt so preponderant. To me, condition dmg beeing more powerfull than power is just… not fun.
Still in this year the more i tried to fight condition in the forums, the more i found that there are actualy many people defending the condition dmg, probably those many people are the slow fingers/brain ones who cant set up a proper burst in a specific timing, so they prefer theyr burst slowly and constantly accumulate skill after skill till they can even reach more devastant burst dmg than a power build if not cleansed. Condition dmg is the sort of mechanic that promotes spamm, cuz in fact you dont have to think about WHEN doing the burst, you have to focus on survive and the thicks of condi will eventualy rise and rise, especialy with the many autoprocs sigill/rune/traits that we have. Also, not having the chance on WICH condi you prefer to cleanse is another bad thing, in comparison as i said in FFVIII wich was a turned based game, you could actualy chose to cleanse poison instead of let’s say zombie status. I guess, the real problem is that this game is noob friendly, and condition dmg is noob friendly.

So after this kinda of preface, i’ll let go the fun/healty side of the condition combat, andlet show you my point of wiew about condi in wvw and his respective balance issues:

FIRST PROBLEM, some pve stats combination are really overpowered, especialy when they include condition damage on them as a main stat. For example dire and Trailblazer are totaly unbalanced set of stats, thats the reason they are not even appearing in pvp, but unfortunately we actualy have them in wvw.

SECOND PROBLEM, as someone already mentioned, anet balance team seems to have forgot after buffing condition dmg to buff the cleanse capacity of each class, resulting in very high unbalance issue. In a way that no matter how many condi cleanse you have, the spamm of them too high in comparison, it’s like Anet lost the control on this.

THIRD PROBLEM, condition removal capacity differently from the possibles counters to berserker/power build, are not balanced between classes, this means while a berserker build can be countered by ANY class by just tank up, or by learning to dodge the single burst the opponent class have, with condition damage instead there are some class that have literaly really bad bad access to condi cleanser, thusly differently from countering power build, sometime you have to literaly upset your build in order to chose cleansing trait/utility to face condi. To me, having cleanser to be mandatory is the DEATH of BUILD DIVERSITY wich is afflicting this game. As i said a couple of thousand times, condition should just be a kinda of side dmg in support of power dmg for the kiting classes.

FOURTH PROBLEM: maybe many of you are not updated about gvg scene, but actualy the meta is some sort of condi/hibrid based. The reason is always the same, much more easy to coordinate a condi burst that accumulate even in a not perfectly syncronized group burst than playing simply power builds. Also, you force the opponent to change their offensive build in a more sort of preserved cleanser hybrid.

FIFTH PROBLEM: in a blob fight, immobilize or chill can be much more deadly and devastating than in pvp or a single 1v1, since if you get immobilized, you will recieve the damage of 30+ people wich often can result in a instant death. So, in blobs condi removal are needed to avoid soft CC. But what happens if the blob is condi based, you will have to waste your condi cleanse even for the condi dmg, wich result a fast death in the consecutive immobilize. I dont understand why people keep saying condi are not good in blob fights, there’s so much aoe/opponents/dmg to evade to watch out, that if you even have to waste your attention to condi dmg, i don’t see any fun on the fight.

SIXTH PROBLEM, and this is the big one that some dumbyy condi lover doesnt seems to get: differently from power based dmg, that can be counter by a single stat (toghness) or nicely timed evades, condition damage HAS to be cleansed. This means, you have to waste seconds of cast time during an entire duel to cast a cleanse skill. This often result in the fact that to counter conditions, you have less offensive initiative than when facing power builds.

I hope to find people in this forum that can help me making anet realize what they are doing to this game. Gw2 had and still have an amazing combat sistem, plz anet dont ruin this amazing games with bad decision and unfun mechanics.
I understand that this is a noob friendly game, but even a noob can have more fun if the game is more skill oriented. And to me, condition damage is the ANTISKILL side of the game.

Ty for reading, hope some developer will read this too, cuz it’s not only my idea, but the idea of my entire wvw guild, and of all of my friends that like to play hardcore.

One thing I do not understand is this.

Why is it people continue to insist that Power damage has a counter with evades while suggesting the same can not be done with an application of a condition?

You can evade condition damage applications. If you fail to evade a power attack you take the damage. if you fail to evade a condition attack you take the conditions with damage now applied over time. The power damage hits you all at once, the condition damage is over time which gives you another opportunity (the cleanse) to mitigate its damage. To deal with condition damage I have my dodges blocks and evades and I have my cleanses. That cleanse can mitigate as much and more condition damage as can toughness mitgating power damage.

Now I tend to favor power builds but when I do get on a condition build it mystifies me as to why so many people just eat my condition applications rather then evade them. What are they saving those evades for?

Now I certainly recognize that some classes might need some tuning when it comes to conditions , but the fact remains is that blocks , evades and invulnerabilities can stop the application of conditions just as they can stop raw power damage application.

babazhook.6805:

One thing I do not understand is this.

Why is it people continue to insist that Power damage has a counter with evades while suggesting the same can not be done with an application of a condition?

You can evade condition damage applications. If you fail to evade a power attack you take the damage. if you fail to evade a condition attack you take the conditions with damage now applied over time. The power damage hits you all at once, the condition damage is over time which gives you another opportunity (the cleanse) to mitigate its damage. To deal with condition damage I have my dodges blocks and evades and I have my cleanses. That cleanse can mitigate as much and more condition damage as can toughness mitgating power damage.

Now I tend to favor power builds but when I do get on a condition build it mystifies me as to why so many people just eat my condition applications rather then evade them. What are they saving those evades for?

Now I certainly recognize that some classes might need some tuning when it comes to conditions , but the fact remains is that blocks , evades and invulnerabilities can stop the application of conditions just as they can stop raw power damage application.

Thats happening cuz unfortunately, most of the condi burst skill have very poor animations comparized to the power skills counterparts.
Also blocks and evades wont save you from autoprocs, wich are the main condi source.
For example, superior rune of perplexity “25% chance when struck to inflict 3 stacks of confusion for 5 seconds”, or “Virtue of Justice – Burn foes every few attacks”, doesnt matter how many times you evade/block, you will eventualy be burned or confused.

I think people get confuse the problem is not condis alone, but the overall output damage in most situations, to much damage ouput plus classes a bit imba.
I miss how condis used to work on GW1 pvp, players needed to know how to condi spike well.

Those autoprocs are stupid and annoying (especially perplexity rune) but definitely not the main condi source. It like saying there is no counterplay to direct dmg because everyone can apply it with autoattacks or unavoidable sigil procs and so on …

And i still don’t get it why people complain about 1-2 condibuilds and then demand a nerf for condis in general. For most classes powerbuilds are superior in most situations. Stop ignoring this.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Those autoprocs are stupid and annoying (especially perplexity rune) but definitely not the main condi source. It like saying there is no counterplay to direct dmg because everyone can apply it with autoattacks or unavoidable sigil procs and so on …

Do you really want me to start posting ALL the condi autoprocs? You would probably get to the conclusion that to avoid a condi burst, the opponent must be on a perma dodge!!!!

UmbraNoctis.1907:

And i still don’t get it why people complain about 1-2 condibuilds and then demand a nerf for condis in general. For most classes powerbuilds are superior in most situations. Stop ignoring this.

have you read my post? The reason is simple: condition is not fun, it has no place in an action combat mmo. Look at BDO, there are impediment movements, but there is not something called condition damage.
Now this is very important, because the counter question is: why you want condition damage to be at the same level of power damage, instead of beeing just a side effect for the kiting classes? Why you just don’t go power build then if in fact condition dmg will be the same as power dmg?*
The answer is really simple: you want something that helps you concentrate more on defense, while still beeing able to do high dmg, and that ignores defensive stats and force opponent to change his build and adapt to your.
In a few words: you want condition dmg to be high to eliminate the possible counterplay from the opponent, you want to be CARRIED by condition dmg.

Condition damage would be okay if the cleanse was split between movement impending conditions and condi dmg itself, and if with a full Dire stats your power based autoattack would do exactly less than 100 even on a berserker opponent.
i.e the base power and attack stats should be 0. So if you want to have both power and condition dmg, you have to raise both stats.
But even so, i wouldnt like it cuz it promotes some kind of roc paper scissor balance issue, as i already mentioned in the post before, not all classes have same access to decent condi cleanser.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Those autoprocs are stupid and annoying (especially perplexity rune) but definitely not the main condi source. It like saying there is no counterplay to direct dmg because everyone can apply it with autoattacks or unavoidable sigil procs and so on …

And i still don’t get it why people complain about 1-2 condibuilds and then demand a nerf for condis in general. For most classes powerbuilds are superior in most situations. Stop ignoring this.

Sorry, There are more Condi build being used right now compared to power. If one build can stack 4-5 condi’s at once, then it does MORE damage than a power build. Period. If you look at zergs now, so many of the builds are condi. it is ridiculous.

As far as roam, all one needs to do is look at TC, who uses Cancer memser’s in teams of 2-3 to roam and deal with people. They are impossible to deal with.

Sorry, your assertions are wrong in the current meta.

Shala.8352:

Do you really want me to start posting ALL the condi autoprocs? You would probably get to the conclusion that to avoid a condi burst, the opponent must be on a perma dodge!!!!

….What? Are you considering a condi burst anytime you get any conditions on you?

You aren’t going to avoid 100% of the damage, just like if you face a power build you won’t avoid 100% of the damage. You need to learn what you can ignore and what needs to be dodged/blocked/evaded/cleansed.

Shala.8352:

babazhook.6805:

One thing I do not understand is this.

Why is it people continue to insist that Power damage has a counter with evades while suggesting the same can not be done with an application of a condition?

You can evade condition damage applications. If you fail to evade a power attack you take the damage. if you fail to evade a condition attack you take the conditions with damage now applied over time. The power damage hits you all at once, the condition damage is over time which gives you another opportunity (the cleanse) to mitigate its damage. To deal with condition damage I have my dodges blocks and evades and I have my cleanses. That cleanse can mitigate as much and more condition damage as can toughness mitgating power damage.

Now I tend to favor power builds but when I do get on a condition build it mystifies me as to why so many people just eat my condition applications rather then evade them. What are they saving those evades for?

Now I certainly recognize that some classes might need some tuning when it comes to conditions , but the fact remains is that blocks , evades and invulnerabilities can stop the application of conditions just as they can stop raw power damage application.

Thats happening cuz unfortunately, most of the condi burst skill have very poor animations comparized to the power skills counterparts.
Also blocks and evades wont save you from autoprocs, wich are the main condi source.
For example, superior rune of perplexity “25% chance when struck to inflict 3 stacks of confusion for 5 seconds”, or “Virtue of Justice – Burn foes every few attacks”, doesnt matter how many times you evade/block, you will eventualy be burned or confused.

This to an extent is true and should be addressed but it not the entire explanation. As example If I bring on a condition theif using DB that the major way he can apply conditions yet I can fight the same person who will refuse to block or evade those Deathblossoms who against one of my power builds will use those same blocks for a shadowstrike or heartseeker.

To your other point that being “no matter how many times you block you will eventally get hit by a condition”. it has to be that way or else there no point to a condition and the same rules apply to power.

no matter how many times I block a power attack i will eventusally run out of blocks and evades and eat one.

Auto procs are a different matter entirely but what is reckless dodge? What is bounding dodger? I dodge you take damage. Hiow about my sigil of fire going off or of air? How is that different?

Puck.9612:

Shala.8352:

Do you really want me to start posting ALL the condi autoprocs? You would probably get to the conclusion that to avoid a condi burst, the opponent must be on a perma dodge!!!!

….What? Are you considering a condi burst anytime you get any conditions on you?

You aren’t going to avoid 100% of the damage, just like if you face a power build you won’t avoid 100% of the damage. You need to learn what you can ignore and what needs to be dodged/blocked/evaded/cleansed.

Gottchaaa XD XD
So you admit that the condi cleanse alone is not the counter to condi based builds^^
The problem is that not only the burst can come from not easy visible animarions skills, but potentialy from many procs at the same time, so potentialy from any action^^

Now inevitably comes the counter question: is toghness alone able to counter power builds? Oh god yes! that plus the amazing spam of boon we had with hots is the reason we had bunker meta last season in pvp! Oh no wait for real you only need one thing to absolutely obliterate power builds: weakness, wich is kinda spammable don’t you think?

Aniway i’m keeping talking to you guys about this, but you don’t seem to understand, i give up. I only know one thing: if condi requires so much skill, why every condi player i meet refuse to go power build against me? Cuz if he can win me with condi build, would be a piece of cake killing me with power build right? Or is it just a matter of counterplays?? How many times i have to repeat myself? CLASSES ARE NOT BALANCED ON DEALING WITH CONDITION DAMAGE, POINT!! And this is the reason noobs are carried by condi dmg.

My last chance then i give up, it’s useless to demonstrate how unfunny condition dmg is, cuz you probably are slow finger/brain and you are having fun while killing people while beeing relaxed in a safe spot with your tanky condi build, so i leave you with my spamm video, and keep thinking you are pro by roaming with condi build, to me you just want to run with a faceroll build:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVO1okVpj2Q

The sheer number of attacks that apply conditions and how often they can be used might well be an issue thus my suggestion that there may be some tuning in order but the point remains people look at condition damage versus power with a bias.

I look at a Condition cleanse in my build as being the Condition version of toughness.

If I face a power build and want something other than dodges/evades/blocks to mitigate damage and want to have something to lessen said damage when those measures fail, than I get more toughness in my build. Getting that toughness might well impact my ability to do damage.

if I face a condition build and want something other than dodges/evades/blocks to mitigate damage and want something to lessen the same should those measures fail than I trait more cleanses. This might well affect my ability to do damage.

Vitality is equally effective in either build and just as my toughness has zero effect against Conditions , my condition cleanses have zero effect against raw power damage.

Whether there enough toughness or whether it does enough or whether there enough cleanses and whether it does enough is up for debate but at the end of the day we can not really have a viable game if the ability to mitigate power damage or condition damage is greater than the ability to inflict the same. We simply have to accept it can not all be mitigated, we will take damage and if outplayed we will lose the fight.

Shala.8352:

Puck.9612:

Shala.8352:

Do you really want me to start posting ALL the condi autoprocs? You would probably get to the conclusion that to avoid a condi burst, the opponent must be on a perma dodge!!!!

….What? Are you considering a condi burst anytime you get any conditions on you?

You aren’t going to avoid 100% of the damage, just like if you face a power build you won’t avoid 100% of the damage. You need to learn what you can ignore and what needs to be dodged/blocked/evaded/cleansed.

Gottchaaa XD XD
So you admit that the condi cleanse alone is not the counter to condi based builds^^
The problem is that not only the burst can come from not easy visible animarions skills, but potentialy from many procs at the same time, so potentialy from any action^^

Now inevitably comes the counter question: is toghness alone able to counter power builds? Oh god yes! that plus the amazing spam of boon we had with hots is the reason we had bunker meta last season in pvp! Oh no wait for real you only need one thing to absolutely obliterate power builds: weakness, wich is kinda spammable don’t you think?

Aniway i’m keeping talking to you guys about this, but you don’t seem to understand, i give up. I only know one thing: if condi requires so much skill, why every condi player i meet refuse to go power build against me? Cuz if he can win me with condi build, would be a piece of cake killing me with power build right? Or is it just a matter of counterplays?? How many times i have to repeat myself? CLASSES ARE NOT BALANCED ON DEALING WITH CONDITION DAMAGE, POINT!! And this is the reason noobs are carried by condi dmg.

My last chance then i give up, it’s useless to demonstrate how unfunny condition dmg is, cuz you probably are slow finger/brain and you are having fun while killing people while beeing relaxed in a safe spot with your tanky condi build, so i leave you with my spamm video, and keep thinking you are pro by roaming with condi build, to me you just want to run with a faceroll build:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVO1okVpj2Q

Tongku.5326:

Condi balance is out of whack. Reapers in 1v1 are extremely OP right now, but not every class is. The problem is really just 1 or 2 classes and in fact, jsut some select skills / traits on them. Thats for the dinky crap balancing.

Now for WvWvW. Most of you guys posting above only speak of roaming, 1v1s etc. but WvWvW primary purpose is MASSIVE battles. This is the games massive pvp combat mode.

And in massive scale, condis, even reapers are stupidly underpowered due to AOE cleanse spam and AOE resistance, etc. In fact, the only time condis are semi-useful in a zerg is when you are going against pure pugs or someone really stupid who wonders too far and can’t get back into the cleanse range in time.

So while overall condis on some classes could use a bit more balance for the dinky crap (roaming etc.), they actually need a buff for the main function of the game mode.

Thing that has personally stricken me since HOT launched, is just how really useless condis are now in any organized or semi-organized comps. I literally had no choice but to convert all my toons to power builds. This has led me in large part to log into WvW a lot less, as I have been already playing power builds since the game launched.

I would love to run more condi, if it was effective I would.

It’s more compounding than that. There are only so many purgings being run because there are only so many guardians. I remember a time prior to the stab nerf when easily 1/3 of the group were guardians because it was fun and useful to play. Now, most of my friends that played guardian are now giving up the melee life for either bursty gank-guardian or a more ranged class.

It’s completely fine that people are running fewer guardians, but if guardians are the primary method of condition removal and you remove most of the incentive for people to play that style of guardian (by upping the ranged factor and allowing classes like revenants to 2 or 3 shot even the tankiest of guardians in 12 seconds (assuming that they land all CoRs and are the only revenant doing so)). It’s no longer fun to play melee and melee were the ones who provided cleanse. Nobody plays the old cleansing shouts warrior much anymore.

Conditions feel overpowered 1) because they’re overpowered and 2) because most of the groups in WvW are not organized to the extent that they run enough cleanses to be entirely effective. Sure, some groups make do and force some people to run guardians and warriors for cleanses, or the god-awful melee revenant spec, but the easiest way for Anet to address conditions is to make guardian and warrior (melee, really) feel fun again. To do that, you revert stability so that melee can actually push in without worrying that they’re going to get stripped in 2 seconds.

Shala.8352:

Do you really want me to start posting ALL the condi autoprocs? You would probably get to the conclusion that to avoid a condi burst, the opponent must be on a perma dodge!!!!

Then tell me please how it is possible for me to deal with most condi builds (exceptions are necros and mesmer – if i change build i can deal with them though) on my melee ranger with very little cleanse.

I’m not saying, balance and procs and passive crap are totally fine. There are lot’s of things that should be changed and of course this includes many condi things. But it doesn’t include deleting condi builds in general (or nerfing them into uselessness)

Shala.8352:

have you read my post? The reason is simple: condition is not fun, it has no place in an action combat mmo. Look at BDO, there are impediment movements, but there is not something called condition damage.

It might be not fun for you – probably because you don’t know how to deal with condi builds – but that’s only your personal opinion.

Shala.8352:

Now this is very important, because the counter question is: why you want condition damage to be at the same level of power damage, instead of beeing just a side effect for the kiting classes? […]

I think, variation is always good and condibuilds can offer an interesting alternative to powerbuilds. Nothing more and nothing less. That being said, i play power builds 99% of the time and only try some condi stuff if i get bored. Your assumption that i just want or need “easy mode” is utterly wrong. Condi builds can be just as hard or easy to play as power builds.

Dusty Moon.4382:

Sorry, There are more Condi build being used right now compared to power. If one build can stack 4-5 condi’s at once, then it does MORE damage than a power build. Period. If you look at zergs now, so many of the builds are condi. it is ridiculous.

Please tell me about all those condi builds …

From my experience in wvw roaming most thieves, warrior, guards, revs, eles, rangers and engies play power builds. Only necros and mesmer are often condi (not all though). Some of those other classes can use condi builds just fine, but there are good reasons, why their powerbuilds are more common.
If i look at zergs, i see mainly hammer revs (power), dhs with traps and lb (power), staff eles (support/power), staff druids (support/power), rifle or hammer warriors (power) and of course necros (both power and condi).

I see people complaining about this condi meta in wvw since i play this game (2 years), but i haven’t found this ominous meta yet.

I find it really funny that people still complain about conditions.

There have been times when condition builds were plentiful but this is not one of those times. There are a lot of condition Reapers and some condition Mesmers/Chronos. If we exclude those two professions I’d wager 80% of everyone else are running a power build of some variant.

I roam plenty and I very rarely encounter condition builds that aren’t one of those two. Just because there are a lot of condition Reapers lurking about and some condition Mesmers/Chronos does not mean that it’s meta nor that conditions need a nerf.

Reaper’s need some adjusting. Deathly Chill still needs to be nerfed again IMO (and that is a class specific nerf not a blanket nerf to all conditions) among other things. Besides that, I very rarely have issues with condition builds and this is coming from someone who is active in all areas of WvW be it roaming, zerging, scouting, etc. and 95% of the time I roam I’m solo on a glass Ranger. If I’m not having problems with conditions… No one else should be.

Also protip for fighting condition Reapers: Kite for god sake. I swear just about everyone I see will either go melee or will be careless about letting the Reaper get close to them. Don’t let them get close to you and they’re cake. It’s really not hard to do. Force them to camp staff, bait their Shroud #2 (the only mobility they have) and range them to death.

The only people that claim condition builds are OP or are crying that there are too many condition builds around (especially right now…) are either a) not bringing enough cleanses or b) tanking conditions instead of dodging or kiting.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

-snip-

Nice to see someone here isn’t completely stupid.

Kudos for being sensible.

I absolutely understand why so many people hate conditions but said people need to learn that just because they hate them doesn’t mean they’re meta, doesn’t mean they’re OP, doesn’t mean they’re better than power and doesn’t mean ANet will just remove it from the game.

I hate Mesmers. Do I ask for them to be removed, nerfed constantly, claim they’re meta or OP? No… I just hate them because I dislike fighting them. You know what I do though? I make sure to be better at fighting Mesmers than I am at fighting anything else. That way even if I don’t enjoy fighting them, at least I can dispatch of them quickly and efficiently. People should be doing the same with condition builds but instead they take no cleanses, tank the major damaging conditions then come to the forums to complain and beg for nerfs when they could be practicing and getting better.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

I find it really funny that people still complain about conditions.

There have been times when condition builds were plentiful but this is not one of those times. There are a lot of condition Reapers and some condition Mesmers/Chronos. If we exclude those two professions I’d wager 80% of everyone else are running a power build of some variant.

I roam plenty and I very rarely encounter condition builds that aren’t one of those two. Just because there are a lot of condition Reapers lurking about and some condition Mesmers/Chronos does not mean that it’s meta nor that conditions need a nerf.

Reaper’s need some adjusting. Deathly Chill still needs to be nerfed again IMO (and that is a class specific nerf not a blanket nerf to all conditions) among other things. Besides that, I very rarely have issues with condition builds and this is coming from someone who is active in all areas of WvW be it roaming, zerging, scouting, etc. and 95% of the time I roam I’m solo on a glass Ranger. If I’m not having problems with conditions… No one else should be.

Also protip for fighting condition Reapers: Kite for god sake. I swear just about everyone I see will either go melee or will be careless about letting the Reaper get close to them. Don’t let them get close to you and they’re cake. It’s really not hard to do. Force them to camp staff, bait their Shroud #2 (the only mobility they have) and range them to death.

The only people that claim condition builds are OP or are crying that there are too many condition builds around (especially right now…) are either a) not bringing enough cleanses or b) tanking conditions instead of dodging or kiting.

Good post and exactly right.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

There have been times when condition builds were plentiful but this is not one of those times.

So much this. Conditions in WvW have never been an issue outside of those unfortunate 1v1s where you don’t have enough cleansing. When a battle begins to scale up in numbers and diversity of classes with copious AoE cleanse, the conditions users become almost completely superfluous. Anyway, condi food was already nerfed so nothing else needs to be changed.

The real issue in WvW right now is in fact direct damage or specifically, ranged damage.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Shala.8352:

Do you really want me to start posting ALL the condi autoprocs? You would probably get to the conclusion that to avoid a condi burst, the opponent must be on a perma dodge!!!!

Then tell me please how it is possible for me to deal with most condi builds (exceptions are necros and mesmer – if i change build i can deal with them though) on my melee ranger with very little cleanse.

I’m not saying, balance and procs and passive crap are totally fine. There are lot’s of things that should be changed and of course this includes many condi things. But it doesn’t include deleting condi builds in general (or nerfing them into uselessness)

Shala.8352:

have you read my post? The reason is simple: condition is not fun, it has no place in an action combat mmo. Look at BDO, there are impediment movements, but there is not something called condition damage.

It might be not fun for you – probably because you don’t know how to deal with condi builds – but that’s only your personal opinion.

Shala.8352:

Now this is very important, because the counter question is: why you want condition damage to be at the same level of power damage, instead of beeing just a side effect for the kiting classes? […]

I think, variation is always good and condibuilds can offer an interesting alternative to powerbuilds. Nothing more and nothing less. That being said, i play power builds 99% of the time and only try some condi stuff if i get bored. Your assumption that i just want or need “easy mode” is utterly wrong. Condi builds can be just as hard or easy to play as power builds.

Dusty Moon.4382:

Sorry, There are more Condi build being used right now compared to power. If one build can stack 4-5 condi’s at once, then it does MORE damage than a power build. Period. If you look at zergs now, so many of the builds are condi. it is ridiculous.

Please tell me about all those condi builds …

From my experience in wvw roaming most thieves, warrior, guards, revs, eles, rangers and engies play power builds. Only necros and mesmer are often condi (not all though). Some of those other classes can use condi builds just fine, but there are good reasons, why their powerbuilds are more common.
If i look at zergs, i see mainly hammer revs (power), dhs with traps and lb (power), staff eles (support/power), staff druids (support/power), rifle or hammer warriors (power) and of course necros (both power and condi).

I see people complaining about this condi meta in wvw since i play this game (2 years), but i haven’t found this ominous meta yet.

If you haven’t found it ominous, then you aren’t playing in WvW, period, or you are on a low tier server.

Pretty easy to name all the condi builds, really. Condi DH’s and Guards (all that burning), Flame Gun warriors, Condi Rev’s, Condi Necro and Reapers, Condi mesmers. The only professions not running condi are Ele and Scrappers.

dubstax.9102:

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Reaper’s need some adjusting. Deathly Chill still needs to be nerfed again IMO (and that is a class specific nerf not a blanket nerf to all conditions) among other things.

I’m just curious why out of everything you pick “Deathly Chill” as needing another scale back. Why? Chill by itself is a rather easy condi to cleanse and I never notice (on players) the damage to be any worse than lets say burn. Another nerf to the damage of that trait and you will basically make it useless.

Because of the uptime. Have you fought a Burn Guard? They can keep Burning on you almost constantly. They apply it with nearly everything they do and it’s quite difficult to keep it off of you. Your best bet is to just save cleanses for when they try to Burn stack you and tank the smaller stacks because you won’t cleanse them all. The reason that’s okay is because Guards don’t have access to a ton of other cover conditions.

Reaper on the other hand, with enough condition damage, Chill can do upwards of 1k per tick and can be re-applied with just about any skill/trait. It’s the same idea as Burn Guard, you won’t cleanse it all and it has extremely high uptime. The difference is that Reaper has a ton of other cover conditions which means you’re only option is to not even let the Reaper hit you in the first place.

Either the access to Chill needs to be reduced or the damage needs to be reduced. We can’t have such easy access to a highly damaging condition when we have easy access to a ton of other conditions as well.

I’m not saying I want the trait to be useless. As someone who has been a condition Necromancer for over 2 years, I was really hyped when I heard about Deathly Chill. But IMHO… It is absolutely OP. Some people might disagree with that opinion but I just think that it has too much going for it (cover conditions, high damage, easy application, strong effects – movement reduced, cooldowns increased).

Simonoly.4352:

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

There have been times when condition builds were plentiful but this is not one of those times.

So much this. Conditions in WvW have never been an issue outside of those unfortunate 1v1s where you don’t have enough cleansing. When a battle begins to scale up in numbers and diversity of classes with copious AoE cleanse, the conditions users become almost completely superfluous. Anyway, condi food was already nerfed so nothing else needs to be changed.

The real issue in WvW right now is in fact direct damage or specifically, ranged damage.

Condi builds still have dire, which creates a situation where one build deals high dmg to and mitigates most of dmg from another build. No need for retraiting, changing skills, dodges or blocks.

That added to the fact that bigger groups (guild raids or zergs) have less support guardians these days and no wonder why condi dmg is becoming popurlar even in these fights.

forum bug

Dawdler.8521:

Zerg, roaming, class? There are lots of options to absorb condi dmg. Vitality already increase your defense against it since you got more HP. If you run full zerker with zero condi removal… well that’s your own fault.

I always keep hearing this quote thrown around “If you run full zerker, yada yada.” Vitality is overrated vs condis, it literally does nothing against condis on classes with low base HP pool in the first place and there isn’t enough condi clear in the game on some classes compared to the amount of reapplication of condis there is. Also, at which point do we stop sacrificing personal damage for gear and traits to combat condis when condi builds literally have 0 trade offs? All you gotta do in a condi build is run the no brainer trailblazer, dire and dire + rabid stats, all of which include toughness and vitality paired with condition damage and expertise, lol you get everything in those stats combos. The closest power builds get to this is with Marauder stats which is still a step down in damage compared to Berserker and you will still get wrecked by condis and now you will also get wrecked by power builds because no toughness. Toughness needs, at the very least to reduce condi duration to counter expertise and so it isn’t a deadweight stat against condi builds.