Guild Wars 2

Can we try to balance things a bit more? I feel condi is overdone and some toxic stuff that isn’t even allowed in pvp is making some builds cheesy :/ I used to see more skill in wvw, and with the elite spec and how people are doing certain builds you can see someone be almost carried by a cheesy build. Like certain mesmer and necro builds.
I just wondered what people thought about some toxic builds now compared to before the release of hot.

They’re out of control, and why I stopped bothering for the most part with WvW and GW2 in general, since that’s what I play the game for.

But unfortunately ANet developers do not care about profession balance in WvW. They’ve said it outright that they actually do not care and that the game mode is not intended to be balanced.

The sad reality is complaining about it falls on deaf ears. Most self-respecting players just got up and left, trolls continue to run the get-carried builds since it makes people angry, and those with skill deficiencies can do the same and claim victory while refuting any innate advantages they may have.

The unfortunate truth of it is that if you don’t like it, too bad. Nothing’s probably changing to ever make it any better, since profession developers only balance for PvE.

DeceiverX.8361:

They’re out of control, and why I stopped bothering for the most part with WvW and GW2 in general, since that’s what I play the game for.

But unfortunately ANet developers do not care about profession balance in WvW. They’ve said it outright that they actually do not care and that the game mode is not intended to be balanced.

The sad reality is complaining about it falls on deaf ears. Most self-respecting players just got up and left, trolls continue to run the get-carried builds since it makes people angry, and those with skill deficiencies can do the same and claim victory while refuting any innate advantages they may have.

The unfortunate truth of it is that if you don’t like it, too bad. Nothing’s probably changing to ever make it any better, since profession developers only balance for PvE.

I think that’s a wrong interpretation of what they actually meant: They can’t really balance large scale, which is true. And maybe at some point they used that quote as an excuse to not care about (wvw) balance at all.
But yes, this game is balanced for PvE and I guess everybody could tell that this is a very very very bad idea (except for PvE players of course “But raids are soo hard – you have no idea!!”).

I’m off beating something else than the forums.

Jana.6831:

DeceiverX.8361:

They’re out of control, and why I stopped bothering for the most part with WvW and GW2 in general, since that’s what I play the game for.

But unfortunately ANet developers do not care about profession balance in WvW. They’ve said it outright that they actually do not care and that the game mode is not intended to be balanced.

The sad reality is complaining about it falls on deaf ears. Most self-respecting players just got up and left, trolls continue to run the get-carried builds since it makes people angry, and those with skill deficiencies can do the same and claim victory while refuting any innate advantages they may have.

The unfortunate truth of it is that if you don’t like it, too bad. Nothing’s probably changing to ever make it any better, since profession developers only balance for PvE.

I think that’s a wrong interpretation of what they actually meant: They can’t really balance large scale, which is true. And maybe at some point they used that quote as an excuse to not care about (wvw) balance at all.
But yes, this game is balanced for PvE and I guess everybody could tell that this is a very very very bad idea (except for PvE players of course “But raids are soo hard – you have no idea!!”).

I’m off beating something else than the forums.

The best way I could think of them balancing stuff in WvW, in terms of damage and whatnot, is just to set up something that activates upon entering WvW maps. For example, if they wanted to nerf condi damage in WvW, they could add a WvW exclusive buff to players while they’re in any WvW map that reduces condi damage by a set percentage.

They don’t even need that: Have a glimpse at the PvP forums – they have the nearly same problems like us. All they need to do is to nerf raids and step away from balancing this game for PvE.

I always thought they balanced around PvP. There’s a reason why Thieves get nerfed to the ground every patch, and why Rangers got nerfed for the longest, and it sure as hell ain’t PvE.

It’s not whether they balance around PvE or PvP, it’s that they’re trying for this “one size fits all” approach. They’re trying to have a set of class balance that they think will work for PvE, PvP, and WvW. That just won’t work well as we know, since all 3 modes are completely different.

What they need is to separate balance between game-modes. Players have been asking for it. It’s just ridiculous devs that work on these game modes such as PvP & WvW don’t even have the powers to make class balance changes. Class balance is done separately by a different skills team.

gavyne.6847:

It’s not whether they balance around PvE or PvP, it’s that they’re trying for this “one size fits all” approach. They’re trying to have a set of class balance that they think will work for PvE, PvP, and WvW. That just won’t work well as we know, since all 3 modes are completely different.

Why shouldn’t it work? You can nerf mobs into oblivion if they’re not suited for PvE players – no one would really complain about that. If all classes were balanced then there shouldn’t be a preference who to take to a dungeon as all were more or less equally strong.
You don’t really need large scale balance, that’s a minor issue which should be partly solved with class balance.
Deceiver knows it better than me but the damage calculations in PvP are different than those in PvE/WvW – that’s the only issue. Otherwise one balance fits it all would work perfectly fine.

Jana.6831:

Otherwise one balance fits it all would work perfectly fine.

If that was the case, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. Nor would there be players complaining about fotm & meta builds in PvP. Oh yeah and even for PvE raids, some classes & builds are preferred over others. So this one size fits all approach really doesn’t work well.

HoT expansion introduced some major power creep across the board. This worked out fine in PvE, but it wrecked balance in PvP & WvW.

gavyne.6847:

If that was the case, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. Nor would there be players complaining about fotm & meta builds in PvP. Oh yeah and even for PvE raids, some classes & builds are preferred over others. So this one size fits all approach really doesn’t work well.

It doesn’t work because there is no balance at all – but that isn’t solved by dividing the modes – that was my point.
And the powercreep was brought to us because of PvE – I bet none of those responsible for the traitmerger June last year and the Hot lines thought of PvP or WvW for one second.

Throwing shade at Necro? Takes dedication and no fear of running back from spawn to make Necro feel average.
I still agree with the rest though. Stat removal in sPvP damaged WvW balance. They’re much more different game modes now. WvW needs separate balance.

Jana.6831:

Why shouldn’t it work? You can nerf mobs into oblivion if they’re not suited for PvE players – no one would really complain about that. If all classes were balanced then there shouldn’t be a preference who to take to a dungeon as all were more or less equally strong.

No it wouldn’t because PvE enemies don’t behave like human enemies and abilities that work in small scale combat can be completely ineffectual in large scale combat.

morrolan.9608:

Jana.6831:

Why shouldn’t it work? You can nerf mobs into oblivion if they’re not suited for PvE players – no one would really complain about that. If all classes were balanced then there shouldn’t be a preference who to take to a dungeon as all were more or less equally strong.

No it wouldn’t because PvE enemies don’t behave like human enemies and abilities that work in small scale combat can be completely ineffectual in large scale combat.

Yes, PvE mobs are predictable – that’s why it doesn’t make sense to have all these blocks and CC in game. And if they dish out a bit less damage in a bit less frequent intervals it wouldn’t make PvE unplayable.
Most skills are more or less useless in large scale (except boons and AoE fields which can be useless in certain circumstances as well – that’s why large scale can’t really be balanced as small scale is more important – if you’d buff large scale all roamers would one shot each other) – we were fine with that fact until HoT – why should that be different now?
In the end: I have no idea since when you’re playing but we’ve had balance before June last year and it worked fine (with some bugs – the game is buggy anyway and that is an issue that should’ve been adressed even then and should be adressed now – in case they intend to keep PvP and WvW) – I guess you agree with me on that – we already had all of what you say is impossible.

Combat was like the one big foundation of this game. When players leave for another game the usual excuse as to their return is, they missed the combat it’s much more enjoyable. Then they decided to change things with the trait changes last year and the elite specs and conditions given more power to be viable, then more boons were handed out to compensate for that.

But meh I’ve accepted they will only balance this game to their precious 5 man arena mode, not that they can even balance that mode either, but at least things were more enjoyable, for the most part, before june of last year.

Xenesis.6389:

Combat was like the one big foundation of this game. When players leave for another game the usual excuse as to their return is, they missed the combat it’s much more enjoyable.

Ya, that’s the frustrating part. The overall combat system is exceptional. The actual combat design is garbage.
From a large scale perspective, builds/comps are valued so much higher than execution at this point that fights are often over before they even begin – or end up being decided randomly because the skill cap is so low. There’s literally no point competing in a meta like that.

It truly needs fixed

jana:
“And the powercreep was brought to us because of PvE – I bet none of those responsible for the traitmerger June last year and the Hot lines thought of PvP or WvW for one second.”

i agree totally! anet cares a bit of pvp (so fast and easy took away so many amulets because “OP” – well maybe they should have done some calculation before removing them on "how will change if we put in this block while damaging skills – invulnerability skills – leaps that heals for 2k aoe 5 ppl in a berserk build – perma stealth – perma leaps – perma blocks etc)

and all those things had a huge impact in wvw – were same bugs of day 1 are still there, only added Cor passing gates too!!!

i said in more posts, anet got a sad road that will gave benefits in short terms to players (the famous DPS!) then when those players understand well that in some scenarios (wvw and pvp) is a mess, loose customers.

(we all have a list of skills that are insane – leaps of druid 1200 range with staff heals 2k in a berserk build – what??? – gun flame that hits from 5k to 12k – Cor of rev same – etc etc, and the “old traits” have become useless in those scenarios – take example on old engineer shield aka useless with those long cooldowns compared to everything else etc etc)

funghetto.1584:

i agree totally! anet cares a bit of pvp (so fast and easy took away so many amulets because “OP” – well maybe they should have done some calculation before removing them on "how will change if we put in this block while damaging skills – invulnerability skills – leaps that heals for 2k aoe 5 ppl in a berserk build – perma stealth – perma leaps – perma blocks etc)

That was the PvP team – the pvp team can change amulets but not traits, they can only suggest to the balance team what should be changed.

I think it is normal that gw2 balances around pvp and not wvw and of course there are some things, where the balance could be improved, but some classes will always be better for specific tasks and I don’t think it will be possible to balance this out completely for wvw. Also atm no class is clearly superior to others in wvw.
I think they should address boonsharing though (what ironically does exactly what you want and gives you the immunity to condis) and make the new HoT-classes less overpowered when compared to vanilla, so new players aren’t discouraged the second they step into wvw or pvp.

Pfft dunno why people complaining, game looks balanced.
Also thief needs a buff please, stealth skill should be hitting harder.
Thank you.

Xenesis.6389:

Pfft dunno why people complaining, game looks balanced.
Also thief needs a buff please, stealth skill should be hitting harder.
Thank you.

lol, at least they can’t perma dodge, that would be annoying, right?

but yeah, game gets a little worse month by month. You keep hoping the next patch will address it, but it doesn’t, and your inner voice says “well, i told ya so, dummy.” They talk to you on the forums for 1 month and disappear for five. The white knight’s defend them because they play trailblazer/dire condi mesmer and still find it challenging? fun? dunno.
At this point tho, I am not sure post HoT GW2 is fixable. If it is, i have yet to see the person/dev that is capable of doing it…have you?

Running a full zerker ele has got its difficulties.

I can make you screenshot with equally high or higher damage from all other classes.

Jana.6831:

Running a full zerker ele has got its difficulties.
I can make you screenshot with equally high or higher damage from all other classes.

That’s the point, combat balance is out of whack since the changes. One reason is obviously because they wanted more fast action combat for spvp, hence why they nerfed the bunker builds.

My ele runs 1582 toughness, but dead in 3 hits I didn’t even get a chance to hit my 3 oh beep buttons, I might as well be running 1000 toughness. I was dead so fast my first thoughts were, yeah someone is using a macro, not, kitten that guy had skillz.

I don’t know what anet considers balance, but a stealth skill that hits for 7800? almost half the health of an ele? Yeah whatever, I’ve already seen the light, they won’t make any changes to stuff brought on by the expansion, there’s no hope for any semblance of balance. I’ve accepted that.

Down to play one night a week again, not sure why I even bother playing reset night either.

You’re right – it is out of control.
but we had no real balance since before June (would’ve been neccessary after June 23th 2015).
They didn’t nerf bunker what did happen was that the pvp team tried to make combat more balanced but they can only change amulets and runes, I think. They have no access to change the traits.

The thief who got you was a signet thief – there’s not much you can do about it, but even I don’t run full glass usually.

ETA: What is happening right now is that a good percentage of players know that we need balance, the pvp team knows, but the balance team sleeps and rather destroys the game further by buffing PvE players.

One first step could be the removal of all stat combinations which got axed in sPvP.

Condi bunker builds are way to strong. This got acknowledged by the sPvP Devs (thank got) but you know nobody cares about WvW so why should Anet connect the dots and remove these stat combinations in the second player vs player mode as well?

And now we’re having this stupid situation in which WvW is basicly the same as sPvP in terms of balance but with all the crazy stats so powerful that they got axed in sPvP.

People aren’t dumb. It was just a matter of time until Condi bunker builds dominate the roaming aspect of WvW.

If you can run around with 3k armor, 20k+ health but with the offensive capabilities of full bersi builds some players will do that. Anet was just to dumb to implement stat combinations which further buffed the advantage of condi damage. You only need 1 stat out of 3/4 possible ones to be condi damage and the rest can be stacked into survival stats.

Schtizzel.5497:

One first step could be the removal of all stat combinations which got axed in sPvP.

Condi bunker builds are way to strong. This got acknowledged by the sPvP Devs (thank got) but you know nobody cares about WvW so why should Anet connect the dots and remove these stat combinations in the second player vs player mode as well?

And now we’re having this stupid situation in which WvW is basicly the same as sPvP in terms of balance but with all the crazy stats so powerful that they got axed in sPvP.

People aren’t dumb. It was just a matter of time until Condi bunker builds dominate the roaming aspect of WvW.

If you can run around with 3k armor, 20k+ health but with the offensive capabilities of full bersi builds some players will do that. Anet was just to dumb to implement stat combinations which further buffed the advantage of condi damage. You only need 1 stat out of 3/4 possible ones to be condi damage and the rest can be stacked into survival stats.

Condi bunker runs rampant because of apex predator power specs which are virtually immune to power dmg ( herald & CO)

@Xen: Looks like you got hit by signet D/D thief or some kind of core build maxing damage, or are running a glass-built light armor profession with no boons and didn’t react very quickly to a gank. As Jana said, I can build pretty much any profession to hit just as hard or harder in the same amount of time (hello, warrior!), and that’s nothing new, either; optimal-burst thief has the same damage output as it has for the past few years, with nothing changing with HoT. It’s also considered an objectively bad build, because it’s a sitting duck for the most part as soon as it doesn’t OHKO its target.

Condi’s been running rampant since like 2013 with the addition of dire gear to the game and several buffs to condi mesmer in the 2014 area. They’ve always been better builds. People just didn’t run them for havoc groups since it’d be slower to take objectives. But since most of the havoc play died with HoT wiping out guild buffs, the only people really “roaming” these days are just the scum that camp spawn playing the new FoTM overpowered builds to gank solo players.

I didn’t even have time to react to the gank, like I said I didn’t even get a chance to push any of my 3 oh beep buttons. Steal, cloak and dagger, backstab, done. I wasn’t exactly prepared for a quick gank since I was watching a zerg on zerg fight below from the mini cliff at nwt. I’ve already checked on the signet build and can see it having 100% crit uptime with quickness and enough passive bonus damage to blow up someone.

That type of thing was possible in the old days for certain sacrifices, today it’s more than possible with the trait changes and hot additions. Even if I did hit my oh beep buttons I was going to be dead anyways. And yes the point is, damage has increased too much all around, too many passive traits that can break the system, stat combinations that make reaching certain stat caps even easier.

I put up that screenshot cause it happened last night and thought it was funny as this discussion was going on, same thief got a mesmer friend the same way, I’m sure he got his fair share of unsuspecting victims last night while jumping back to the safety of his zerg. I know it’s possible on other classes like mesmers and warriors etc.

Overall, combat is a lot less fun than it use to be, if I wanted to be killed like in a fps shooter I’d be playing overwatch not gw2.

Except it isn’t.

You have at minimum a 1s window to react upon first taking damage from mug to avoid the damage. Minimum. That’s less so than what a shatter mesmer will give you, with superior damage. That’s less so than a GF war will give you, less than a power scrapper will, JI glass-DH, etc. etkittenerally every profession except the ele can burst just as quickly with the same or more damage, and typically much better skirmish potential. Obviously the ele fairs much better in damage output in groups with Meteor Shower and the likes, and if built tank/sustain, should not die to a thief unless it plays horribly.

An optimized-damage signet build running 100% crit chance will die to a stiff breeze and deal less damage than anything else, because it means it’s running Assassin’s/Berserker.

A thief with quickness is either not playing signets or runs Flanking Strikes, which is on a 60s cooldown.

And no, it’s still got sacrifices. The signet build literally has not changed in over two years. It does not run Daredevil and does not use any content from HoT or nearby it. It’s actually gotten worse than it was prior. It’s playing D/D, the worst weapon set on the thief and one of the worst in the game, which got nerfed massively this last patch to a point where most serious power D/D thieves rerolled or quit GW2. Signets is boon-dependent, runs no cleanses, can only hit once per engage, has poor disengage, no stunbreak, no mid-stealth options on a failed backstab, unreliable setup, and is above all else one of the riskiest, skill-intensive builds in the game to play well.

The only redeeming factor of the build is a targeted strike to an unsuspecting backliner will potentially drop it, depending on the build of course. Most professions have so much passive defense from HoT that it’s not a consistent killer now, either.

You’re either playing poorly, don’t have a build to fight 1v1, or got massively out-played from just not paying attention to your surroundings and then some.

If you think D/D signets is strong… you’re in for a very sad wakeup call if you roam more. It’s one of the easiest builds to beat.

DeceiverX.8361:

snip

tldr I’m a baddie, everything is fine. – usual thief response.

Have fun then

No, it think what he actually meant is that signet d/d is a one trick pony and that you were unfortunate and fell to it’s single trick.

DeceiverX.8361:

…less than a power scrapper will … every profession except the ele can burst just as quickly with the same or more damage

Thanks for the laugh, power scrapper has crappy burst, that is slow as hell and has probably the worst damage application in the game when you aren’t forced to fight on a point, if you can’t burst someone better on thief than a scrapper you should reroll.

Xenesis.6389:

DeceiverX.8361:

snip

tldr I’m a baddie, everything is fine. – usual thief response.

Have fun then

Jeknar.6184:

No, it think what he actually meant is that signet d/d is a one trick pony and that you were unfortunate and fell to it’s single trick.

And that you usually have enough time to react – I have and I’m a thief magnet because I’m a vanilla D/D thief.

Xenesis.6389:

Pfft dunno why people complaining, game looks balanced.
Also thief needs a buff please, stealth skill should be hitting harder.
Thank you.

There is just not much reasons to play elementalist anymore besides the nice animations. The skills are too slow, and the other classes buff are too great. Every other classes do more damage and have more survivability.

Funny responses.

Just about every thief build is classified as one a trick pony.

“D/D signets..”
“naw man 2 years old”
“15k backstab?”
“naw man others stronker use invul”
“from stealth?”
“naw man use stealth traps”
“didn’t have time”
“nah man just aoe 1 shot squish ded”
“but evades?”
“naw man wait till he stops jumping around”
“now what if trap build?”
“naw man just run the other way”
“but bow..”
“naw man run when he bow other way”
“what about condi”
“naw man run all condi removal”
“but that means I have to sacrifice skills”
“naw man 1 shot squish ded rememer?”
“but dire?”
“naw man still 1 shot squish ded”
“ok so I should run dire, condi bombs, aoes, condi removals, stealth traps, invuls, meta class?”
“naw man dey two of them now, just run”
“well… beep…”
“wait wait wait I have a blink”
“naw man just put head beteen knees and wait fer dey face plant”

But it’s so much fun when I kill an Ele with just Mirror Blade and a 1 clone Mind Wrack. Or when my vault instantly kills an Ele. I remember when I killed an Ele with a single Basilisk + Unload the other week – that was amusing.

If we get some semblance of WvW balance we’ll actually have to work for our kills. Nobody wants that…you monster!

Or maybe if the elementalist was designed well such that it wasn’t either crappy or overpowered based on the state of its boon application and gearing, there wouldn’t be any problems.

But it’s way easier to blame gimmick builds. Amirite?

Idk why condi is so toxic, it is just a noob killer that works only against rangers. The moment condi necro tries to roam and meets a rifle warrior, it is rip for him. And in Zerg fights you cannot ramp up nowhere near the same damage as power specs because the cleanses/resistance. Of course if you make full blob of condi to hide Burnguard damage, you can get somewhere.
And Roamingwise condi is no good, except if youre mesmer and in that case you have to run away everytime you see more than 1 enemy with proper build.

Threather.9354:

Idk why condi is so toxic, it is just a noob killer that works only against rangers. The moment condi necro tries to roam and meets a rifle warrior, it is rip for him. And in Zerg fights you cannot ramp up nowhere near the same damage as power specs because the cleanses/resistance. Of course if you make full blob of condi to hide Burnguard damage, you can get somewhere.
And Roamingwise condi is no good, except if youre mesmer and in that case you have to run away everytime you see more than 1 enemy with proper build.

That is literally all the T1 servers do. I wish I were joking, but there’s a reason why Revenants are forced into Mallyx for WvW, and that’s because without resistance, you’ll die to whichever zerg strikes first with the condis.

Actually, EU T1 servers dont do it, because our revenants actually know how to rotate resistance and people are willing to relog/change builds based on enemy.
If you’re complete noob and havent realised the red circles on ground that can get 10 condis on you suddenly and kill you instantly, you most likely stepped on a wellbomb thus you died from power damage. Conditions are linked with power, purging flames do 1000 per tick even on power build with max might + cele trinks.

Threather.9354:

Actually, EU T1 servers dont do it, because our revenants actually know how to rotate resistance and people are willing to relog/change builds based on enemy.
If you’re complete noob and havent realised the red circles on ground that can get 10 condis on you suddenly and kill you instantly, you most likely stepped on a wellbomb thus you died from power damage. Conditions are linked with power, purging flames do 1000 per tick even on power build with max might + cele trinks.

Signet of Spite, Epidemic, Corrupt Boon, Well of Corruption, Chilled to the Bone. Imagine all of this coming onto 15+ people in the span of 3 seconds, from a group of 15 necromancers in a map queue of 60 blobbing everything. Congratulations, you have NA T1 strategy.

That’s just the necromancers too. Add in the boonshare mesmers, zerker eles, yadda yadda. There’s a reason why NA blobs destroy anything they get the drop on but fold easily if you even catch them off guard.