Guild Wars 2

Here’s an idea:

For every additional allied player within radar range over 20, you’re hit with a % debuff to all stats other than boon/condi duration and % crit damage. This could be 0.5%, 1%, or whatever works best. And this debuff would stack up to cap, say 30%. Defeated (not downed) players would cease to count towards the debuff.

So for example, if a 80 man zerg attacks a keep defended by 30 players. Then the attackers would be debuffed to a full -30% to all stats and the defenders would suffer a a minor 5% debuf, assuming the debuff rate is set to 0.5% per additional player.

The defenders use this to their advantage to wipe out 30 of the attackers but suffer 10 casualties of their own. Now the 50 remaining attackers’ debuff is reduced to 15%, and the 20 remaining defenders have no debuff.

I believe with this system, smaller groups will form and attack different parts of the map, breaking up some of the zerginess. But since the debuff is capped and goes away as more and more of the zerg is wiped out or chased off, there is still a small advantage to be had with superior numbers, but it’s nowhere near as hopeless as it is now. What do you guys think?

Friendly fire.

and 15 chars

I understand the complaints about the AOE cap and how everyone stacked up in my fire field should be burned rather than rewarded for being dumb enough to stack up in my fire field.

What I don’t understand is why we want to punish people who play in large groups just for playing in large groups.

I feel that if my group is outnumbered I should be able to outplay my enemy. Taking a percentage of their stats away or just maybe having the game automatically explode a few of their players until we are on a more even playing field doesn’t really interest me.

I prefer a game that is set up with its individual systems such that if I am coordinated with my group and my map as a whole we can overcome greater less coordinated and less skilled opponents.

I understand the WvW game mode isn’t such that a large coordinated group can really win, but thats a different matter.

fivekiller.1432:

I understand the complaints about the AOE cap and how everyone stacked up in my fire field should be burned rather than rewarded for being dumb enough to stack up in my fire field.

What I don’t understand is why we want to punish people who play in large groups just for playing in large groups.

I feel that if my group is outnumbered I should be able to outplay my enemy. Taking a percentage of their stats away or just maybe having the game automatically explode a few of their players until we are on a more even playing field doesn’t really interest me.

I prefer a game that is set up with its individual systems such that if I am coordinated with my group and my map as a whole we can overcome greater less coordinated and less skilled opponents.

I understand the WvW game mode isn’t such that a large coordinated group can really win, but thats a different matter.

If you ever played SW:TOR’s Ilum, the world PvP zone, you’d understand. The map objectives were pointless. Whichever side had the bigger zerg would just spawncamp the other side for hours on end. If your faction was losing it wasn’t even worth stepping out of your safe zone. Only way the losing team could get kills was to bait and chain pull an attacker into the safezone where they would automatically be vaporized by the automated defenses. That’s why the system I propose would not create a noticable power difference between a party of 30 vs 15. But at 80+ players, tactics really just goes out the door. Not to mention the skill lag.

Actually I did play SWTOR. I was an assassin and imperial so we were the ones spawn camping the underpopulated rebels. As an assassin it was my job to pull enemies out from near their safe zone into our zerg so they would die.

I guess I get that you just don’t like zergs. But many of us enjoy it. My issues aren’t with zergs themselves but how some of the game mechanics work with them.

I’ve no argument though, your perspective is as valid as mine and it seems to just be a matter of what we enjoy.

sdsakuragi.8170:

Here’s an idea:

For every additional allied player within radar range over 20, you’re hit with a % debuff to all stats other than boon/condi duration and % crit damage. This could be 0.5%, 1%, or whatever works best. And this debuff would stack up to cap, say 30%. Defeated (not downed) players would cease to count towards the debuff.

So for example, if a 80 man zerg attacks a keep defended by 30 players. Then the attackers would be debuffed to a full -30% to all stats and the defenders would suffer a a minor 5% debuf, assuming the debuff rate is set to 0.5% per additional player.

The defenders use this to their advantage to wipe out 30 of the attackers but suffer 10 casualties of their own. Now the 50 remaining attackers’ debuff is reduced to 15%, and the 20 remaining defenders have no debuff.

I believe with this system, smaller groups will form and attack different parts of the map, breaking up some of the zerginess. But since the debuff is capped and goes away as more and more of the zerg is wiped out or chased off, there is still a small advantage to be had with superior numbers, but it’s nowhere near as hopeless as it is now. What do you guys think?

No

Because this goes against Anet’s group philosophy. They never want a situation to arise where a player sees a group event and is hesitant to join in for fear of being reprimanded by those already there who will now be faced with debuffs or diminished returns or anything like that because someone joined late.

Anything that causes that uncertainty/awkwardness goes against what makes gw2 gw2, and does not belong.

Unfortunately this doesn’t translate as well to wvw as it does to pve, but that’s how it is.

Zergs are here to stay.

MrChandMan.8253:

Because this goes against Anet’s group philosophy. They never want a situation to arise where a player sees a group event and is hesitant to join in for fear of being reprimanded by those already there who will now be faced with debuffs or diminished returns or anything like that because someone joined late.

Why? This already happens in pre-events to Shatterer and other certain situations. A simple mission that one person can finish in 3 minutes gets scaled terribly due to 50 people hanging about and now takes 30 minutes to complete.

Why is everyone so afraid of the zerg. If you want small group PvP go sPvP.

I do not understand why no one likes large scale battles. I think it is some of the most fun in the game. A huge 3 way battle for Garrison is a blast.

Why try to penalize grouping up in larger groups?

Why not provide new things that zergs can do? Provide mechanics that allow zergs to structure themselves more efficiently and add more interaction that zerg vs zerg vs zerg warfare can do.

People will zerg. This is a natural human desire.

Winning a melee fight is all about who has the greater numbers combined with technology. In WvW everyone has the same tech so combat becomes who has the most numbers.

Adding penalties to zerging will only negatively impact WvW. Instead, go the other route, and add tactical and strategic decision making to WvW. Give people in a zerg MORE things to do so it becomes more enjoyable.

Zergs are part of the game, people who like that playstyle should be welcome to it, Anet just has to stop rewarding it over all other playstyles.

Nuzt.7894:

Zergs are part of the game, people who like that playstyle should be welcome to it, Anet just has to stop rewarding it over all other playstyles.

This sums up all that needs to be said about this topic

Ruprect.7260:

Why is everyone so afraid of the zerg. If you want small group PvP go sPvP.

I do not understand why no one likes large scale battles. I think it is some of the most fun in the game. A huge 3 way battle for Garrison is a blast.

Problem is that you’re assuming it’s a fair fight with multiple zergs. The biggest concerns about zergs is that certain servers are able to field their biggest zergs while most of the player base is sleeping. So imagine your server has maybe a total of 10 people defending a keep at 3am. You’re having a lot of fun vs the 20 attackers from the other server. Then all of a sudden they get 60 reinforcements from a completely different direction. At that point you may as well log out because there’s nothing meaningful that you can do in WvW for the next 6 hours.

3 huge zergs duking it out can be fun, but 10-15 vs 80 players is never fun. We’re not talking about large scale battles, we’re talking about time based population imbalance on a massive scale in certain match ups.

Of course there’s the other solution: Create SEA based servers, and then only allow home server selection based on IP address. Asian players are only allowed to play on SEA servers, Europeans and Middle East players only on EU servers, and North and South Americans on the NA servers. I personally feel that’s a bit too extreme.

Gadzooks.4687:

Nuzt.7894:

Zergs are part of the game, people who like that playstyle should be welcome to it, Anet just has to stop rewarding it over all other playstyles.

This sums up all that needs to be said about this topic

It only feels rewarded over other playstyles because the same rules apply to individuals whether they are part of the zerg or not. Hence joining the zerg becomes the path of least resistance while doing anything: control points, defense, siege, heck, before the dungeon fix people would graveyard zerg in dungeons.

So the only way to keep zerging from being overly rewarding is to apply resistance, and that means special rules and conditions when you take part in a zerg. I’m not advocating an end to zerging completely, I’m just saying that during off peak server hours when there’s only 20 players from your server on an entire map and a 80 man zerg appears, you have more options than to just WP to spawn so you’re not just free badges.

I’m also not suggesting rewards in WxP or coin, etc be reduced for zergs. And as more and more of the zerg is depleted, remaining players get stronger. The zerg still has it’s advantages. And if it’s a zerg on zerg battle, if everyone is under the same debuff, then the fight is still fair and exciting.

sdsakuragi.8170:

So the only way to keep zerging from being overly rewarding is to apply resistance, and that means special rules and conditions when you take part in a zerg. I’m not advocating an end to zerging completely, I’m just saying that during off peak server hours when there’s only 20 players from your server on an entire map and a 80 man zerg appears, you have more options than to just WP to spawn so you’re not just free badges.

I’m also not suggesting rewards in WxP or coin, etc be reduced for zergs. And as more and more of the zerg is depleted, remaining players get stronger. The zerg still has it’s advantages. And if it’s a zerg on zerg battle, if everyone is under the same debuff, then the fight is still fair and exciting.

Nerfs and debuffs are not the answer. Nerfs RUIN games more than anything else possibly could. People need to stop asking for nerfs. Think about what is really being said: “this is working too well, make it suck more.”

But this

whiran.1473:

Give people in a zerg MORE things to do so it becomes more enjoyable.

That is innovative thinking in an entirely different direction. That is the approach that should be taken. Zergs are here to stay. Adding debuffs or anything to lessen the zerg experience will destroy the game.

MrChandMan.8253:

But this

whiran.1473:

Give people in a zerg MORE things to do so it becomes more enjoyable.

That is innovative thinking in an entirely different direction. That is the approach that should be taken. Zergs are here to stay. Adding debuffs or anything to lessen the zerg experience will destroy the game.

Two things.

Does anyone actually have any idea of what “MORE things” is exactly? More control points on the map? Unless we have concrete and specific suggestions, we may as well be Congress, clamoring for more public works and less taxes and no idea how to do both at the same time.

And also why exactly would encouraging a single zerg to split off into multiple smaller groups destroy the game? We already scale up world bosses to counter the zerg. It actually takes less time for 15 people to kill the Shatterer than it does for 80 people. Has this destroyed the dragon fights? Are people deserting the game in droves? Zerg based debuffing, would actually encourage multiple commanders per server per map and thus more interesting tactics and resource mobilitly. If anything the zerg is what’s ruining WvW. In T3 right now there’s certain times of the day where 2 of the servers are so outnumbered that it’s actually not worth logging into WvW unless it’s your intentio to donate free badges. How do you convince outnumbered servers to stick around and fight against the zerg if they have no hope of doing anything significant against it? This morning one server help over 90% of PPT. How does this help make the game better or more enjoyable? Would giving a greatly outnumbered force a fighting chance and thus a reason to stick around and fight, instead of WPing back to spawn, really “destroy the game”?

Edit:
Also to address you point about nerfs. Nerfs to certain classes and builds ruin games, because this is usually seen by the player population as favoring one class or build over another. Complete mechanic and scaling changes across all servers and class are balanced and fair in every sense of the word. Was there a mass exodus of players when the level downscaling changes were implemented in PvE to make high level players weaker because they were still 1-2 shotting most mobs? Did people rage quit when guaranteed rares from meta event chests were changed to account based from character based?

Zerging is known as emergent gameplay. In other words, a meta which develops due to manipulation of the rules. Change the rules the meta will change along with it. League of Legends has one of the most wildly swinging nerf bats of any game I’ve played. If what you say is true, that game must have no active players left by now.

sdsakuragi.8170:

Problem is that you’re assuming it’s a fair fight with multiple zergs. The biggest concerns about zergs is that certain servers are able to field their biggest zergs while most of the player base is sleeping. So imagine your server has maybe a total of 10 people defending a keep at 3am. You’re having a lot of fun vs the 20 attackers from the other server. Then all of a sudden they get 60 reinforcements from a completely different direction. At that point you may as well log out because there’s nothing meaningful that you can do in WvW for the next 6 hours.

3 huge zergs duking it out can be fun, but 10-15 vs 80 players is never fun. We’re not talking about large scale battles, we’re talking about time based population imbalance on a massive scale in certain match ups.

Best answer on this thread! I think the same as you.

Also, this debuff would make the game better for small groups or roaming groups… It’s fun to see how an enemy zerg of 80 guys kill your 15-20 guildmates in about 2min (or less)…

Plenty you can do when outmannned- including taking raiding parties to different maps, flipping maps, killing bessies and generally being sneaky and pulling 60+ people back to their own home BL as they try and find you and your 2-3 raiding teams – it’s even more fun with a couple of golems!

A debuff for a zerg would either have no effect or just encourage even bigger zergs to counter the debuff,

The example given by the Op is pure nonsense- if your attacking a keep then if one of your players is downed and you outman the opposition by say 80 to 30 then you will have no problem ressing those people, meaning all your debuff would achieve is to drag out the battle by another minute or two at most.

The only solution to time-based population imbalances is to try and find coverage for that period, or organise it, or wait until you drop a tier or two, or change server to oen without such an imbalance.

bad ideea over all
from that 80 ppls 30 will be pugs, and 20 underlvled, wich will just help you to rally on them.
And there will be the enemy guild -30 players organized clan, who cannot enjoy the game , cause pugs follow them so they become weak, and i mean weak
i got 15000 hp on thief / 2400 p defence – 3000 p atack 100% critical damage 45 critical rate (example)
debufed i got 10.000 hp /1600 defence, 2000 p atack , 70 critical damage , 30 critical rate
HI , we play ducks and hunters?

It’s time ANet focus more on WvW and fix the queue system. It is so unreasonable to have one server with 25 people on the map defend against 40+ of the other 2 servers while the reinforcement is stuck in queue. The queue system is a total fail and the lack of an automated balance system is a bigger fail. At the moment, victory is based on the server’s WvW population rather than skills or tactic.

I don’t like this kind of thinking or idea.

People should not have a penalty just because there is a large number of them in the area.

Rayya.2591:

bad ideea over all
from that 80 ppls 30 will be pugs, and 20 underlvled, wich will just help you to rally on them.
And there will be the enemy guild -30 players organized clan, who cannot enjoy the game , cause pugs follow them so they become weak, and i mean weak
i got 15000 hp on thief / 2400 p defence – 3000 p atack 100% critical damage 45 critical rate (example)
debufed i got 10.000 hp /1600 defence, 2000 p atack , 70 critical damage , 30 critical rate
HI , we play ducks and hunters?

If you read my OP, only the stats are modified, so base armor and weapon damage remain. Also I said certain stats would be exempt from the debuff, such as +% crit damage, but I agree precision should probably remain untouched as well. The idea is a linear debuff, not exponential.

And regarding the PUGs, that’s the idea, you’ll find a way to ditch them. Maybe allow a commander tag to be set to guild only. Usually my guild is on TS, so if we need to ditch PUGs who are not keeping up, we just randomly WP away. They never find us again unless we turn the tag back on. But this encourages groups to attack different points of the map.

And as for the damage redution. You see the amont of AoE a zerg can put down? Even with a 30% debuff, the 80 man zerg still has the AoE damage of a non-debuffed 55 man zerg. You can’t beat 30 enemies with those odds? Or are people just upset it makes badge/karma farming a bit less faceroll? Besides the 30% is used as an example, I’d expect ANet to tweak the numbers if they ever decided to go with this idea.

sdsakuragi.8170:

MrChandMan.8253:

But this

whiran.1473:

Give people in a zerg MORE things to do so it becomes more enjoyable.

That is innovative thinking in an entirely different direction. That is the approach that should be taken. Zergs are here to stay. Adding debuffs or anything to lessen the zerg experience will destroy the game.

Two things.

Does anyone actually have any idea of what “MORE things” is exactly? More control points on the map? Unless we have concrete and specific suggestions, we may as well be Congress, clamoring for more public works and less taxes and no idea how to do both at the same time.

And also why exactly would encouraging a single zerg to split off into multiple smaller groups destroy the game? We already scale up world bosses to counter the zerg. It actually takes less time for 15 people to kill the Shatterer than it does for 80 people. Has this destroyed the dragon fights? Are people deserting the game in droves? Zerg based debuffing, would actually encourage multiple commanders per server per map and thus more interesting tactics and resource mobilitly. If anything the zerg is what’s ruining WvW. In T3 right now there’s certain times of the day where 2 of the servers are so outnumbered that it’s actually not worth logging into WvW unless it’s your intentio to donate free badges. How do you convince outnumbered servers to stick around and fight against the zerg if they have no hope of doing anything significant against it? This morning one server help over 90% of PPT. How does this help make the game better or more enjoyable? Would giving a greatly outnumbered force a fighting chance and thus a reason to stick around and fight, instead of WPing back to spawn, really “destroy the game”?

Edit:
Also to address you point about nerfs. Nerfs to certain classes and builds ruin games, because this is usually seen by the player population as favoring one class or build over another. Complete mechanic and scaling changes across all servers and class are balanced and fair in every sense of the word. Was there a mass exodus of players when the level downscaling changes were implemented in PvE to make high level players weaker because they were still 1-2 shotting most mobs? Did people rage quit when guaranteed rares from meta event chests were changed to account based from character based?

Zerging is known as emergent gameplay. In other words, a meta which develops due to manipulation of the rules. Change the rules the meta will change along with it. League of Legends has one of the most wildly swinging nerf bats of any game I’ve played. If what you say is true, that game must have no active players left by now.

“Encouraging” a single zerg to split into smaller zergs by debuffing and weakening the big zerg is not the way to do it. Incentives for smaller zergs mist come as a positive effect to smaller zergs, not a negative effect to big zergs. Of course there are incentives already though. A server that wants to rack up ppt points most efficiently already knows that it’s better to have multiple zergs hitting multiple targets. Or one big zerg to distract defenders while small groups cap empty towers is another good strategy. We don’t need weird debuffs added for this to happen. The “problem” will fix itself as more servers play strategically.

But to the other point, I like the idea of scaling capture events in wvw based on the current population at that moment. If one server has 60 ppl on the map and there’s 10 defenders on the map, then it would be nice to buff up the NPCs or something like that. That way there’s less pvdoor and server skill isn’t based solely on coverage…….but that sounds extremely hard to implement. I can’t even imagine the coding that would take, and how it would work with 3 servers. Plus, what can you do when the Lord is already a lvl 83 legendary?