I am curious what your guild or zerg commanders run in large scale fights?
HoD is the first time I have been exposed to running Lemongrass in large scale fights (I do run it full time when skirmishing). My previous server almost universally used Omnomberry Compote. Just curious which one people think is “better” and why.
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Depends on composition /enemy composition
guild vs guild >Lemongrass -> you will not relly on enemy rally bots to heal on kill , more tomes of courage, more water field regroups
Guild vs zerg -> Depends on composition , if you run mostly mele or mostly ranged
zerg vs guild > lemongrass
Zerg vs zerg > omnomberry , if you run the mele train
lemongrass or other food if you run 75% ranged 25% mele
Depends on composition /enemy composition
guild vs guild >Lemongrass -> you will not relly on enemy rally bots to heal on kill , more tomes of courage, more water field regroups
Guild vs zerg -> Depends on composition , if you run mostly mele or mostly ranged
zerg vs guild > lemongrass
Zerg vs zerg > omnomberry , if you run the mele train
lemongrass or other food if you run 75% ranged 25% mele
Interesting. I can see GvG being Lemongrass, but zerg busting in a guild Omnomberry seems vastly superior. That is almost a guaranteed outnumbered situation which is where Omnomberry makes a massive impact. Also ranged players get huge benefits from Omnomberry since they tag almost everything. So long as the train working, squishies are getting big heals.
In my experience by the time Lemongrass kicks in during zerg fights, it is too late to really help. With omnomberry as long as the train is killing, everyone is healing.
Sarcasm For Hire [SFH]
“Youre lips are movin and youre complaining about something thats wingeing.”
Unless you’re constantly rolling over bad players I really don’t see the use of the compote, it might have a place in eotm I guess.
Three kinds of basic large scale fights (not including GvG). The first, team rolls over enemy. Doesn’t matter which food. The second, the team gets run over in seconds… again doesn’t matter which food. The final is the fights that go back and forth. In my experience 1k heal per kill is more valuable than 40% reduction in conditions in those fights. As long as the heavies are dishing it out, the back line is being healed even when they are not on tag. Besides conditions rarely run their full time in zerg fights due to the massive amount of condi-stack removal.
Sarcasm For Hire [SFH]
“Youre lips are movin and youre complaining about something thats wingeing.”
Compote just doesn’t cut it in large ZvZ fights anymore. The condition meta makes it impossible for compote to give enough sustain through a fight.
I actually am starting to use saffron bread for large ZvZ fights, simply because you can’t get 100% stability uptime and there’s a ton of hard CC used in these fights.
Expac sucks for WvW players. Asura master race
Beastgate | Faerie Law
Currently residing on SBI
WvW – Zerg vs Zerg
I prefer Compote simply because in your group composition your condition removal should be high enough that conditions are being wiped off extremely fast anyways. If you have a condition that lasts 10 seconds, it only wipes out the last 4 seconds of that condition. It’s been my experience that the condition is already cleared before the first 6 seconds is up so the Lemongrass isn’t doing as good of a job as people may think.
The extra 1k heals though have allowed my groups to stay up so much longer and be that much more durable.
You could also look at splitting it up as well. Back line shouldn’t be taking the same damage as your hammer train, so you could give your backline something to help up their DPS, which would work by helping the frontline kill people faster thus making the Compote even more effective for them.
WvW – Smaller scale or Guild vs Guild
I’d go with the Lemongrass for the smaller scale stuff. 10vs10, 15vs15 etc, where condition removal isn’t as prevalent.
What effect is Lemongrass actually having in zerg fights? Any condition that is landing most likely isn’t going to run its full duration with or without Lemongrass. This is certainly true in a large skill group. If a group is relying on Lemongrass to have a significant effect, they are already going to be in bad shape as letting conditions run 60% or more of its duration on a zerg is highly problematic. On the flip side giving up big heals for possible damage reduction certainly will have an effect and IMO not a very good one in comparison.
IMO Lemongrass being so effective in small scale fights has unduly influenced commanders in large scale fights. Few individuals in a zerg can withstand even a few seconds of full condi stacks hence stack removal not duration limitation being so very important in large scale fights.
Sarcasm For Hire [SFH]
“Youre lips are movin and youre complaining about something thats wingeing.”
This is probably going to blow the OP’s mind but I have never seen or heard of any significant group using Compote, in all my 1.5+ years of WvW. I’m not aware of a single guild or pugmander on YB or SoS that used/uses Compote. And there are plenty of guilds on SoS that know something about zerg busting. My impression is that 99% of strong players use Poultry Soup.
Here’s a metaphor. Compote is like the 0/3/6/4/1 Justice Engine guard build. 100% optimal for overkilling green militia, but ultimately just a win-by-more mechanic that only helps you when you are already doing well. But then again it actually doesn’t help you that much because the melee ball overheals itself every 15-20 seconds anyways. At least VoJ produces might/blind/vuln.
Poultry Soup helps you in situations where the outcome is actually in doubt. Contrary to popular belief there actually is an upper limit to the amount of conditions that can be actively cleansed. Particularly in tuned compositions that aren’t running 4 guards per party or some such.
This is probably going to blow the OP’s mind but I have never seen or heard of any significant group using Compote, in all my 1.5+ years of WvW.
I have been on a half dozen servers since release (although most of my time on one), compote used to be a staple in the hammer train days. The GWEN model seems to have changed that as groups I have run with use a greater variety of foods but the use of Lemongrass to the exclusion of everything else is a new one for me.
I just cannot see how it has a substantial effect compared to other foods on on a large group fight particularly one involving a zerg busting group. Clearly others see a benefit but I think it may be a placebo type effect. They think it works so they keep using it. No question Lemongrass is a extremely effective when condition stack removal isn’t plentiful but in a zerg…. condi stack removal generally out strips conditions ability to run its duration making Lemongrass at least partially ineffective.
Sarcasm For Hire [SFH]
“Youre lips are movin and youre complaining about something thats wingeing.”
I just cannot see how it has a substantial effect compared to other foods on on a large group fight particularly one involving a zerg busting group. Clearly others see a benefit but I think it may be a placebo type effect. They think it works so they keep using it. No question Lemongrass is a extremely effective when condition stack removal isn’t plentiful but in a zerg…. condi stack removal generally out strips conditions ability to run its duration making Lemongrass at least partially ineffective.
It’s a huge aid to warriors and necros mainly. Neither of those two classes have much condi clear and get wrecked quite easily by a condi bomb. You lose a huge chunk of damage if a few of those got taken out early in the fight. It’s fairly useful for a guardian for its vitality bonus, but not as important. Backline generally have their own food to use – my ele uses power/precision food.
Expac sucks for WvW players. Asura master race
Beastgate | Faerie Law
Currently residing on SBI
I don’t like Omnomberry Compote. I think you gain the food advantage when you are already winning.
I like loaf of saffron bread a lot. If you already have a good condi cleanse in the zerg. -20% damage in a hammertrain is a LOT, sometimes there is a lot of necros ripping off stability. And still you gain 20% condi reduction.
The actual food I use varies, but I do use everything posted above, of course the food prices are rising too much so I don’t want to endorse anything. :p Man those poultry leek soup prices sure went up.
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards,
for there you have been and there you will long to return.
This is probably going to blow the OP’s mind but I have never seen or heard of any significant group using Compote, in all my 1.5+ years of WvW.
I have been on a half dozen servers since release (although most of my time on one), compote used to be a staple in the hammer train days. The GWEN model seems to have changed that as groups I have run with use a greater variety of foods but the use of Lemongrass to the exclusion of everything else is a new one for me.
I just cannot see how it has a substantial effect compared to other foods on on a large group fight particularly one involving a zerg busting group. Clearly others see a benefit but I think it may be a placebo type effect. They think it works so they keep using it. No question Lemongrass is a extremely effective when condition stack removal isn’t plentiful but in a zerg…. condi stack removal generally out strips conditions ability to run its duration making Lemongrass at least partially ineffective.
theres a reason why 99% of good guilds use lemongrass, and why only scrubs still use compote
lemongrass is used in conjunction with runes and dogged march/purging flames to nullify soft cc, immob/chills/cripple.
lemongrass also enables you to use your condi clears on actual long duration skills such as pindown shot for example, because it lets all the small short duration condis run out much quicker on their own.
… It’s a huge aid to warriors and necros mainly. Neither of those two classes have much condi clear and get wrecked quite easily by a condi bomb….].
Necro has a huge amount of condi clear, a lot of our core mechanics are based around clearing and transferring conditions. Lemongrass is a problem for us when an enemy zerg runs it though since we’re mostly just tagging everything with conditions with very little direct damage… so i definitely suggest you guys use compote, Lemongrass will just make you fat…
… It’s a huge aid to warriors and necros mainly. Neither of those two classes have much condi clear and get wrecked quite easily by a condi bomb….].
Necro has a huge amount of condi clear, a lot of our core mechanics are based around clearing and transferring conditions. Lemongrass is a problem for us when an enemy zerg runs it though since we’re mostly just tagging everything with conditions with very little direct damage… so i definitely suggest you guys use compote, Lemongrass will just make you fat…
Necros have Well of Power (50 sec cooldown), Plague Signet (60 sec cooldown) and Consume Conditions (25 sec cooldown) with 1 condi removal when entering death shroud (6 seconds traited) and 3 condi removal on a kill. Compare this with Guardian and Ele condi removal, and you’ll see how limited this is, especially when necros rarely take Well of Power (Well of Corruption and Well of Darkness are way better) and Plague Signet (honestly, who takes that?). I also prefer taking Staff Mastery over condi removal on Death Shroud because well, 20% cooldown reduction is huge.
Again, this is for zerg fights. For solo fights, I could see the use of Plague Signet, though Signet of Spite would be the more preferred signet to take.
Then again, Lemongrass is a zerg food, so in a zerg situation, Lemongrass would be the preferred food for my Necro.
Expac sucks for WvW players. Asura master race
Beastgate | Faerie Law
Currently residing on SBI
… It’s a huge aid to warriors and necros mainly. Neither of those two classes have much condi clear and get wrecked quite easily by a condi bomb….].
Necro has a huge amount of condi clear, a lot of our core mechanics are based around clearing and transferring conditions. Lemongrass is a problem for us when an enemy zerg runs it though since we’re mostly just tagging everything with conditions with very little direct damage… so i definitely suggest you guys use compote, Lemongrass will just make you fat…
Necros have Well of Power (50 sec cooldown), Plague Signet (60 sec cooldown) and Consume Conditions (25 sec cooldown) with 1 condi removal when entering death shroud (6 seconds traited) and 3 condi removal on a kill. Compare this with Guardian and Ele condi removal, and you’ll see how limited this is, especially when necros rarely take Well of Power (Well of Corruption and Well of Darkness are way better) and Plague Signet (honestly, who takes that?). I also prefer taking Staff Mastery over condi removal on Death Shroud because well, 20% cooldown reduction is huge.
And what does Staff Mastery let you do more often? If you said “transfer conditions for a total self cleanse in ZvZ more often”, you’d be right!
Necros have 4 total cleanses available to them, and zerg builds run two usually (frequently 3). Two of said total clears depend on multiple enemies (4 hits with either Putrid Mark or Deathly Swarm is a total cleanse), yes, but in ZvZ, this is no problem.
And Warriors have Cleansing Ire/Dogged March. They usually have fewer condition issues than anyone else.
lemongrass is used in conjunction with runes and dogged march/purging flames to nullify soft cc, immob/chills/cripple.
lemongrass also enables you to use your condi clears on actual long duration skills such as pindown shot for example, because it lets all the small short duration condis run out much quicker on their own.
I seldomly wait for conditions to clear on their own in a zerg fight. It is fairly rare. Compote can easily heal for 3k plus a second. Lemongrass on the other hand probably cannot wipe conditions fast enough to account for that much healing. You do make a valid point about soft CC though. I am still unconvinced that a stacked group waiting for condis to run out and manually healing is better than constantly healing and manually clearing condition. I wish GW2 had a decent combat log because then it would be easier to figure out just how effective Lemongrass is in large groups. I do have agree that a fixed Seaweed Salad may be FTW.
It’s a huge aid to warriors and necros mainly. Neither of those two classes have much condi clear and get wrecked quite easily by a condi bomb.
As I am sure someone has already pointed out Necros and Warriors have excellent condition management… possibly the best in the game. Putting conditions on a warrior and expecting them to stick in a zerg isn’t likely going to happen. Cleansing Ire, Dogged March and Shout warriors make short work of most conditions. Putting conditions on a necro can often be doing them a favor.
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“Youre lips are movin and youre complaining about something thats wingeing.”
I seldomly wait for conditions to clear on their own in a zerg fight.
A typical melee party (2 guard, 1 war, 2 extra) has 2x Purge, 1x Charge / Hornblast, 1x SIO/FGJ, and possibly guardian shout or F2 cleanse. Which is a formidible amount of cleanse, but still not enough to actively clear every condition that lands on the party. Especially because Purge is usually saved for the driver’s discretion, and Charge/Horn are saved for regroups. Poultry Soup keeps the chaff condis at bay so that the big active cleanse can be saved in that manner.
There are just not many circumstances under which Compote is healing for that much and you haven’t already won. This is why I refer to it as a win-by-more mechanic.
A typical melee party (2 guard, 1 war, 2 extra) has 2x Purge, 1x Charge / Hornblast, 1x SIO/FGJ, and possibly guardian shout or F2 cleanse. Which is a formidible amount of cleanse, but still not enough to actively clear every condition that lands on the party. Especially because Purge is usually saved for the driver’s discretion, and Charge/Horn are saved for regroups. Poultry Soup keeps the chaff condis at bay so that the big active cleanse can be saved in that manner.
Thing is the most frequent condition application is the one to be removed first which is usually the damaging conditions. Bleeding and Fire are probably the two heaviest applied conditions and unlikely to stay on for the duration minus lemongrass. They are less likely to stay on if Lemongrass runs off a cover condition first, but the true effect at this point is at best a guess.
There are just not many circumstances under which Compote is healing for that much and you haven’t already won. This is why I refer to it as a win-by-more mechanic.
When a fight is raging and bodies are dropping is exactly when big healing is needed and occurs with compote. As soon as a commander hits the back line, compote is generating a ton of healing. In a 50v50 scenario that has players running back into the fight after they die, compote will heal a minimum of 50k and can easily attain an amount north of 250k. The longer a fight goes, the more effective compote is.
I would love to see some actual analysis rather than educated guesses but as we all know that cannot happen until we get a meaningful combat log.
Sarcasm For Hire [SFH]
“Youre lips are movin and youre complaining about something thats wingeing.”
