Guild Wars 2

As the GM of a somewhat well-known roaming group (yes, in T1), I can tell you that the Bloodlust changed everything for my guild. It completely revitalized our GW2 experience.

For about 2-3 months prior to the BL, we had to BEG the other two servers to run more small groups. Most of theirs quit the game at that time, and we were seriously considering moving to T2. We resorted to trying to fight zerg stragglers. Then bloodlust happened. SoR and JQ began to care about small groups again. My guild doesn’t care about the PPT; all we know is that the Bloodlust mechanic created a lot more small roaming groups in T1. Not only that, but our server’s community actually cares about us being on the map now. Our 3-8 roamers make a difference for once! It’s been an amazing month.

I am just afraid that what Rackhir Tanelorn.9123 says above about denying the 1 point from one or both servers won’t be enough incentive for SoR and JQ to continue bringing out their small roaming groups to cap Bloodlust. 3 points per stomp vs 1 point… that’s a huge difference for the SoR and JQ communities to consider. Will it still be worth their while bringing out small groups on more than one map? My guild isn’t the only roaming group on Blackgate. We need a significant population of enemy small groups on every map.

I don’t know how the Bloodlust stomp points affected the lower tiers. My impression was that the lower tiers didn’t care that much about PPT anyway, and just wanted good fights. Have the Bloodlust areas not created a more enjoyable skirmishing environment in the lower tiers??? And the argument above about losing by 100k vs 130k… is that worth removing a mechanic that is considered by many zerg and non-zerg players to be the best mechanic in WvW?

Here’s a simple thought; why not buff it up to +150 to all skill attributes and have 3 point stomps for T1 servers and leave the rest alone? I think that would make mostly everyone happy.

I remember reading over and hearing about the coming changes from Anet Devs to this and the overall nerf to stats (which I thought was great, 150 to all stats is quite a bit... 60 at max is fine, but I wouldn’t mind if they were removed completely). I also recall recently hearing caveats about this being a temporary adjustment and in the future a better implementation of the bloodlust buff will be coming, which I’m still looking forward to. What irked me a bit here though is, the "stat nerf" did not make any mention of a stomp point reduction (that blindsighted me a bit). Additionally, Season 1 starts this Friday and that forthcoming change and better implementation of bloodlust will not be coming during this period, as I imagine Anet will want to have all mechanics to remain the same during these seasons to ensure ’fair competition’.

Overall, WvW is definitely in a better place due to the changes on these borderland maps and reimplementation of this bloodlust buff. We’ve seen an increase of fights around them, but this temporary nerf has all but halted much interest, especially considering taking more than 1 point is now unneccessary.

Please consider making the following changes before this Friday:

** Note, these are not cumulative.

1 Capture: + 10 All Stats, +5 Vitality, -1% damage taken versus siege & npcs, +1 points per stomp
2 Captures: + 20 All Stats, +10 Vitality, -2% damage taken versus siege & npcs, +2 points per sotmp
3 Captures: +30 All Stats, +15 Vitality, -3% damage taken versus siege & npcs, +2 points per stomp

Reslinal.2359:

Swamurabi.7890:

Reslinal.2359:

Swamurabi.7890:

Samhayn.2385:

Swamurabi.7890:

As long as uneven matchups exist;

Any boost, whether it’s stats or points per stomp, is bad for the game

Get out of your T1 bubble and see how the rest of the WvW world is.
You might find that what’s good for T1 is bad for WvW.

I love how being Tier 1 invalidates anything we have to say.

how bout this, No NA server has less then a high population so maybe if the other people on your server left the LS or dungeon for a bit you may be able to to field a force that could push your rating.

Bloodlust will be a broken mechanic for 6 out of the 7 weeks this season for Gold league. What makes T1 arguements invalid is that T1 is a balanced tier, something that you don’t see in most of the matches. That’s why I started out with “AS LONG AS UNEVEN MATCHUPS EXIST”

As for getting the rest of my very high server population to participate in WvW, why don’t the T1 servers stop recruiting/buying guilds from other servers and get the people on their own server into WvW. This way every server can grow their WvW population.

I love how the T1 population thinks that since they got to T1, anyone else can too. Except for the last 32 weeks, nobody has dropped out of T1, and it doesn’t look like that’s going to change for the next 8 weeks either.

But you guys in T2 are screwed regardless whether there’s ppt on stomp for bloodlust or not though….does it really matter to you that now you are only going to lose by 100k instead of 130k without ppt on stomp? I can see how stat on bloodbuff affects you because it actually affects the fights, but ppt on stomp?

Also the ppt on stomp is not only good for T1, it’s good for any semi-balanced fights throughout the tiers as it adds depth to the fight and allow servers with slightly less coverage in off-hours to actually come back if they play well in prime hours. Isn’t that a lot that you guys are asking for?

One balanced match, out of 17. Works as designed.

EU
NA

Why are you pick selected samples like this week? How about last week like this http://mos.millenium.org/na/matchups/history/111?

And again balanced matches has nothing to do with bloodlust but to do with ANET’s way of matching servers, why are you trying to mix the two together? If you are losing by 100k anyway, does it really bothers you that much that you may lose 130k now because there are ppt on stomp for bloodlust buff?

Use the whole sample, instead of just the one that slightly makes your point better.
EU week 40 0 of 9
NA week 40 3 of 8

so 3 of 17 close matches justifies having a boost for the 14 of 17 blowout matches. So for the last 2 weeks we have 4 out of 34 close matches where bloodlust is a desired mechanic. Care to go back farther? After all, there was a thread that has one of the highest reads in the WvW forum…..

Server-Match-up-is-TERRIBLE
Isn’t it ironic that the matchup that started this popular thread was SoR/TC/SoS, a matchup that could happen in the gold league?

And the reason why this is important is that with the new league matches, there will be very few “balanced” matches and a vast majority of blowout matches. T1 is going to have 10 different matches possible 7 weeks. ONLY 1 of the 10 matches will be BG/SoR/JQ.

1) Add back in 1 point per stomp per BL buff
2) Remove the stats, or leave them. Whatever…
3) Add rewards for capping the points. You can add diminishing returns as well so people can’t just point swap to farm silver/wXP but at least it would bring others to the points to fight.

Swamurabi.7890:

Reslinal.2359:

Swamurabi.7890:

Reslinal.2359:

Swamurabi.7890:

Samhayn.2385:

Swamurabi.7890:

As long as uneven matchups exist;

Any boost, whether it’s stats or points per stomp, is bad for the game

Get out of your T1 bubble and see how the rest of the WvW world is.
You might find that what’s good for T1 is bad for WvW.

I love how being Tier 1 invalidates anything we have to say.

how bout this, No NA server has less then a high population so maybe if the other people on your server left the LS or dungeon for a bit you may be able to to field a force that could push your rating.

Bloodlust will be a broken mechanic for 6 out of the 7 weeks this season for Gold league. What makes T1 arguements invalid is that T1 is a balanced tier, something that you don’t see in most of the matches. That’s why I started out with “AS LONG AS UNEVEN MATCHUPS EXIST”

As for getting the rest of my very high server population to participate in WvW, why don’t the T1 servers stop recruiting/buying guilds from other servers and get the people on their own server into WvW. This way every server can grow their WvW population.

I love how the T1 population thinks that since they got to T1, anyone else can too. Except for the last 32 weeks, nobody has dropped out of T1, and it doesn’t look like that’s going to change for the next 8 weeks either.

But you guys in T2 are screwed regardless whether there’s ppt on stomp for bloodlust or not though….does it really matter to you that now you are only going to lose by 100k instead of 130k without ppt on stomp? I can see how stat on bloodbuff affects you because it actually affects the fights, but ppt on stomp?

Also the ppt on stomp is not only good for T1, it’s good for any semi-balanced fights throughout the tiers as it adds depth to the fight and allow servers with slightly less coverage in off-hours to actually come back if they play well in prime hours. Isn’t that a lot that you guys are asking for?

One balanced match, out of 17. Works as designed.

EU
NA

Why are you pick selected samples like this week? How about last week like this http://mos.millenium.org/na/matchups/history/111?

And again balanced matches has nothing to do with bloodlust but to do with ANET’s way of matching servers, why are you trying to mix the two together? If you are losing by 100k anyway, does it really bothers you that much that you may lose 130k now because there are ppt on stomp for bloodlust buff?

Use the whole sample, instead of just the one that slightly makes your point better.
EU week 40 0 of 9
NA week 40 3 of 8

so 3 of 17 close matches justifies having a boost for the 14 of 17 blowout matches. So for the last 2 weeks we have 4 out of 34 close matches where bloodlust is a desired mechanic. Care to go back farther? After all, there was a thread that has one of the highest reads in the WvW forum…..

Server-Match-up-is-TERRIBLE
Isn’t it ironic that the matchup that started this popular thread was SoR/TC/SoS, a matchup that could happen in the gold league?

And the reason why this is important is that with the new league matches, there will be very few “balanced” matches and a vast majority of blowout matches. T1 is going to have 10 different matches possible 7 weeks. ONLY 1 of the 10 matches will be BG/SoR/JQ.

I still don’t understand this is related to the ppt on stomp buff in what way? Are you saying those unbalanced matches will not happen if there’s no ppt on stomp? Or players on the loosing severs of those matches will feel better if they are loosing by 200k vs 230k with ppt on stomp?

My point is ppt on stomps adds fun and depth to semi-balanced matches while have no relevant impact on one-sided matches. Yes the match making in the past months sucks and may or may not continue to suck in the league and anet needs to improve that. But it has nothing to do with removing ppt on stomp from bloodlust buff.

You like bloodlust even though it only affects a small number of matches.

If that’s the case then you would support changing the map cap to 40, which will also only affect a small number of matches.

Swamurabi.7890:

If that’s the case then you would support changing the map cap to 40, which will also only affect a small number of matches.

T1 here: Yes. Though 40 is a bit low, I’d rather 50-60. 1 large guild per map with a few small guilds capable of joining.

To the people still supporting the points on stomp change: are you guys actually roamers?

Bloodlust – Stats? No.
Bloodlust – Points for Stomps? Yes. 1 for 1, 2 for 2, 3 for 3. Why?

Because it promotes fighting, small group fights and roaming.

The thing that I find to be the most sad about the general tone of this thread is that the bloodlust buffs have been a way for the out-manned servers to gain an upper hand through skill in arms.

Bloodlust stomp points don’t reward PvDoor – which WvW has already been continuing to reward – over and over again.

I just don’t understand. Is it that you guys really only PvP for Karma and the majestic rewards of killing keep Lords?

T1 this, T1 that – blah blah blah. Own your game. Fight, get better – can’t beat a zerg three times the size of yours? Stop playing their game. Stop giving it up for free. Stop blaming Bloodlust, and realize that Bloodlust is the saving grace for you, not the nail in the coffin.

The people who don’t understand the strategic value of bloodlust stomp points, must not be roamers. It’s the only explanation that makes sense. And if that is so, just go about your business as usual. Those who truly grasp this topic are people who can actually think beyond the immediate bubble of their server’s Blue Commander Icons.

how is the points on stomp an issue for zerg v zergs? if a 30man zerg is wiped, im pretty sure only like 4 of them got stomped. Who stomps people in a laggy zerg fight? lol

Monadproxy.3489:

how is the points on stomp an issue for zerg v zergs? if a 30man zerg is wiped, im pretty sure only like 4 of them got stomped. Who stomps people in a laggy zerg fight? lol

Exactly. Stomps mostly affect those who attack the tails of zergs/stragglers, roamers and small groups (or lawl “havoc” teams). If an entire zerg got stomped, that would be a feat within itself.

the rooster has spoken.

Why is everyone in NA so concerned about ppt? I’m happy to be in EU where people – having played whole week – ask if we won or not on fridays.
I never stomped people to earn a point for my server but because the Super Explosive finisher makes my win look awesome.

Just another one of those features that worked out great and actually did what it was designed for but it got nerfed due to people not knowing how to adjust to it. Another round goes to the casual player and the blobbers…

Boulderbolg.3460:

Have the Bloodlust areas not created a more enjoyable skirmishing environment in the lower tiers???

You talk about 3-8 players as a roaming group.

At reset each week, we have a server wide meeting of WvW guilds. This has been goin on for months, since January and just about any guild that’s interested in workin with other guilds shows up (I mean, we’ve advertised the hell out of it at this point).

After the last bit of transfers, there’s 1 guild that has more than 3-8 people at reset. At prime time, there might be as many as 20 people on the homeland map. Unless the enemy server’s single zerg (think 20-30 people) arrives on the map to karma train/earn PPT, everything is enjoyable skirmish fight, at which point we can’t spare anyone to take the buff.

Basically the buff hasn’t really changed much, I think. Unless you’re totally shut out of a match (being on Blackgate, I have no idea if you ever encounter that). Where you can’t take keeps back, you’re starting breakouts for Cragtop/Sunnyhill, and the enemy has more people roamers in the ruins than you have people total. Then it’s super annoying to have someone have +150 to every one of their stat points.

styx.7294:

Boulderbolg.3460:

Have the Bloodlust areas not created a more enjoyable skirmishing environment in the lower tiers???

Basically the buff hasn’t really changed much, I think. Unless you’re totally shut out of a match (being on Blackgate, I have no idea if you ever encounter that). Where you can’t take keeps back, you’re starting breakouts for Cragtop/Sunnyhill, and the enemy has more people roamers in the ruins than you have people total. Then it’s super annoying to have someone have +150 to every one of their stat points.

We came from Yaks Bend, so yeah we know what it is like to be totally shut out. It does suck. I totally agree with you that 150 stat bonus was way too much, especially for the folks in the lower tiers who are out manned in every BL. I (and just about everyone else in this thread) just want to see the stomp bonus returned to the way it was before so as to keep the Bloodlust area from becoming a complete dead zone.

Styx. Like a lot of posts above, your bringing up a population issue. Its not a issue with the bloodlust mechanic. If you had the population to spare a few players or had a few players dedicated to bloodlust it wouldn’t be as much as a problem. (just to stay clear, I’m talking about the points for stomps, not the stats) I’ll say the population issue is a completely different topic than this but does need to be addressed by the WvW team, also leagues did not help rather it made it worse.

All I’m saying is for balanced match ups the points for stomps added a new and refreshing strategy to the game. As boulderblog pointed out it brought a new fun meaning to the game for players that were on the brink of quitting.

For blow out matches it won’t matter either way, its still going to be a blow out. The thing with the pre patch bloodlust was the stats that made it a issue for under populated servers. From my understanding (via posts here on the forums) must player in those match up tend to look for fights and just enjoy them selves rather than care about PPT. If that is the case then points for stomps shouldn’t change your mind set for playing the game.

If they revert the change on bloodlust to 3 points per stomp for holding 3 orbs and greatly lower or remove the stats, that would give servers that care about PPT or winning the match something to go for and server that don’t wouldn’t be effected on the field.

If they are dead set on having some kind of stat on it, make it +/- damage against/to guards. Imo leave siege related buffs off as that again would make the stronger server stronger.

Anet, Please bring back the full stomp points I dont care about any buff to stats being attached or removed, but the stomp points made smaller guilds feel like they were contributing to the servers WVW as whole without having to run in the zerg balls……

Terrible change. Stat boosts are still not yet removed, and why nerf the points on stomp? If anything they should double the points on stomp per stack of buff, and additionally introduce new food that give points on stomp to further increase strategic options. Not the other way around.

Anet is clearly encouraging stacking to the first server (not the first three). They should rename WvW to coverage wars.

Stomp points should of stayed the same. What kills me is the Devs had said before they don’t like to nerf or buff something only to make dramatic changes later on, but they rather make tweaks here and there. A good tweak was reducing the stat boost and leaving the point stomps and see how it goes. Please bring back the stomps.

Madora.9340:

Here’s a simple thought; why not buff it up to +150 to all skill attributes and have 3 point stomps for T1 servers and leave the rest alone? I think that would make mostly everyone happy.

Because even the T1 servers don’t want the buff, if you actually took time to read instead of throwing a tantrum you would know. We care about the stomp bonus because it promotes more skill play. If the enemy was downed before we would just aoe them down and not even bother trying to stomp and risky getting downed yourself.

Most of the T1 vs All tiers is invalid. 3 points per stomp is going to demoralize the losing server more? Yeah cause 400k vs 100k looks much better than 433k vs 110k. You want less zerging yet the one thing that did break the group up somewhat and you.re still crying about it.

Zikory.6871:

Styx. Like a lot of posts above, your bringing up a population issue. Its not a issue with the bloodlust mechanic. If you had the population to spare a few players or had a few players dedicated to bloodlust it wouldn’t be as much as a problem. (just to stay clear, I’m talking about the points for stomps, not the stats) I’ll say the population issue is a completely different topic than this but does need to be addressed by the WvW team, also leagues did not help rather it made it worse.

All I’m saying is for balanced match ups the points for stomps added a new and refreshing strategy to the game. As boulderblog pointed out it brought a new fun meaning to the game for players that were on the brink of quitting.

For blow out matches it won’t matter either way, its still going to be a blow out. The thing with the pre patch bloodlust was the stats that made it a issue for under populated servers. From my understanding (via posts here on the forums) must player in those match up tend to look for fights and just enjoy them selves rather than care about PPT. If that is the case then points for stomps shouldn’t change your mind set for playing the game.

If they revert the change on bloodlust to 3 points per stomp for holding 3 orbs and greatly lower or remove the stats, that would give servers that care about PPT or winning the match something to go for and server that don’t wouldn’t be effected on the field.

If they are dead set on having some kind of stat on it, make it +/- damage against/to guards. Imo leave siege related buffs off as that again would make the stronger server stronger.

The population issue and the bloodlust mechanic are intertwined. As are other forms of power creep.

Power creep in and of itself is bad. The negative aspects of it are greatly compounded when you have population imbalance.

There was a good post about the negative aspects of the stomp bonus but I can’t find it right now. I think +3 is too much. Its probably ok where it is now, I haven’t decided.

Even if all three have +1 then it still gives advantage to the more organized side who decides to stomp like you were talking about. And preventing the other team from having that +1 is still incentive for keeping them from having it.

Johje Holan.4607:

Zikory.6871:

Styx. Like a lot of posts above, your bringing up a population issue. Its not a issue with the bloodlust mechanic. If you had the population to spare a few players or had a few players dedicated to bloodlust it wouldn’t be as much as a problem. (just to stay clear, I’m talking about the points for stomps, not the stats) I’ll say the population issue is a completely different topic than this but does need to be addressed by the WvW team, also leagues did not help rather it made it worse.

All I’m saying is for balanced match ups the points for stomps added a new and refreshing strategy to the game. As boulderblog pointed out it brought a new fun meaning to the game for players that were on the brink of quitting.

For blow out matches it won’t matter either way, its still going to be a blow out. The thing with the pre patch bloodlust was the stats that made it a issue for under populated servers. From my understanding (via posts here on the forums) must player in those match up tend to look for fights and just enjoy them selves rather than care about PPT. If that is the case then points for stomps shouldn’t change your mind set for playing the game.

If they revert the change on bloodlust to 3 points per stomp for holding 3 orbs and greatly lower or remove the stats, that would give servers that care about PPT or winning the match something to go for and server that don’t wouldn’t be effected on the field.

If they are dead set on having some kind of stat on it, make it +/- damage against/to guards. Imo leave siege related buffs off as that again would make the stronger server stronger.

The population issue and the bloodlust mechanic are intertwined. As are other forms of power creep.

Power creep in and of itself is bad. The negative aspects of it are greatly compounded when you have population imbalance.

There was a good post about the negative aspects of the stomp bonus but I can’t find it right now. I think +3 is too much. Its probably ok where it is now, I haven’t decided.

Even if all three have +1 then it still gives advantage to the more organized side who decides to stomp like you were talking about. And preventing the other team from having that +1 is still incentive for keeping them from having it.

First of all, no one here talks about the stat bonus on bloodlust buff, so the power creep point is moot, we support completely removing the stat bonus.

Second, stomp on ppt actually rewards the side that is under-populated or have less coverage but plays better (e.g. better havoc groups coordination to control bloodlust, better open field combat, better discipline of the force to stomp instead of kill). In fact, it is actually possible for servers that losing points in off-hours now to come back in prime hours because there are more people to stomp during that time.

Third, during matches when stomp on ppt actually does make the strong server stronger, it usually does not have meaningful negative impact anyway. Who cares if a server is losing 130k now because of stomp on ppt instead of 100k without? During matches where servers only care about fights, stomp on ppt has no relevance whatsoever, but it does adds fun and depth to matches that are semi-balanced.

Johje Holan.4607:

The population issue and the bloodlust mechanic are intertwined. As are other forms of power creep.

Power creep in and of itself is bad. The negative aspects of it are greatly compounded when you have population imbalance.

There was a good post about the negative aspects of the stomp bonus but I can’t find it right now. I think +3 is too much. Its probably ok where it is now, I haven’t decided.

Even if all three have +1 then it still gives advantage to the more organized side who decides to stomp like you were talking about. And preventing the other team from having that +1 is still incentive for keeping them from having it.

I completely disagree with your first sentence. Population issues are nothing new and with seasons its gotten even worse, IMO this is something that needed to be addressed prior to seasons. Random matches should have stopped to even out lower tiers correctly. As for bloodlust I agree that the stats were bad and fit the “strong get stronger” argument which on one is denying and even T1 players expressed their opinion when is was announced. In all population issues were here well before bloodlust and leagues are what created the mass exodus of servers.

As far as power creep, I’m indifferent as long as they don’t over do them selves. Things that belong in another discussion like ascended weapons and the coming armor are something that can be obtained by everyone and does not rely on your servers participation though time gated and expensive. I’ll leave that at that because that is a whole another discussion in its self.

EDIT: I think I misunderstood your point on power creep. Yes, extra stats are bad and unnecessary to make the nodes relevant.

Personally I think 3 was a good place, it meant that you have a reason to go after all 3 orbs. I understand your point on denying the other team of possible points and its a good point and smart but it leaves less of a need to go after the other nodes. When it was 3, you had to make kitten sure the other team didn’t have that many if you wanted to push hard objectives or you had a lot of open field engagements. While it may still be important, its not the priority it was.

Reslinal.2359:

Johje Holan.4607:

Zikory.6871:

Styx. Like a lot of posts above, your bringing up a population issue. Its not a issue with the bloodlust mechanic. If you had the population to spare a few players or had a few players dedicated to bloodlust it wouldn’t be as much as a problem. (just to stay clear, I’m talking about the points for stomps, not the stats) I’ll say the population issue is a completely different topic than this but does need to be addressed by the WvW team, also leagues did not help rather it made it worse.

All I’m saying is for balanced match ups the points for stomps added a new and refreshing strategy to the game. As boulderblog pointed out it brought a new fun meaning to the game for players that were on the brink of quitting.

For blow out matches it won’t matter either way, its still going to be a blow out. The thing with the pre patch bloodlust was the stats that made it a issue for under populated servers. From my understanding (via posts here on the forums) must player in those match up tend to look for fights and just enjoy them selves rather than care about PPT. If that is the case then points for stomps shouldn’t change your mind set for playing the game.

If they revert the change on bloodlust to 3 points per stomp for holding 3 orbs and greatly lower or remove the stats, that would give servers that care about PPT or winning the match something to go for and server that don’t wouldn’t be effected on the field.

If they are dead set on having some kind of stat on it, make it +/- damage against/to guards. Imo leave siege related buffs off as that again would make the stronger server stronger.

The population issue and the bloodlust mechanic are intertwined. As are other forms of power creep.

Power creep in and of itself is bad. The negative aspects of it are greatly compounded when you have population imbalance.

There was a good post about the negative aspects of the stomp bonus but I can’t find it right now. I think +3 is too much. Its probably ok where it is now, I haven’t decided.

Even if all three have +1 then it still gives advantage to the more organized side who decides to stomp like you were talking about. And preventing the other team from having that +1 is still incentive for keeping them from having it.

First of all, no one here talks about the stat bonus on bloodlust buff, so the power creep point is moot, we support completely removing the stat bonus.

Second, stomp on ppt actually rewards the side that is under-populated or have less coverage but plays better (e.g. better havoc groups coordination to control bloodlust, better open field combat, better discipline of the force to stomp instead of kill). In fact, it is actually possible for servers that losing points in off-hours now to come back in prime hours because there are more people to stomp during that time.

Third, during matches when stomp on ppt actually does make the strong server stronger, it usually does not have meaningful negative impact anyway. Who cares if a server is losing 130k now because of stomp on ppt instead of 100k without? During matches where servers only care about fights, stomp on ppt has no relevance whatsoever, but it does adds fun and depth to matches that are semi-balanced.

A mechanic that adds to PPT for the stronger side is still power creep. And I’m not convinced of the argument about the points on stomp benefitting the under-populated side.

Figures, ANET finally adds something that makes it worthwhile to be organized and in smaller groups in WvW, but within a month, listens to the complaining of those that would rather zerg in huge mindless blobs and dumbs it back down.

Welcome to every MMO ever.

Johje Holan.4607:

A mechanic that adds to PPT for the stronger side is still power creep. And I’m not convinced of the argument about the points on stomp benefitting the under-populated side.

There’s no need for arguments when facts fly in your face. BG is the lightest of the top three, and is only competitive now because of point on stomp.

If you have not actually try the mechanic, you are in no position to criticize it’s efficacy.

The massive stat bonus was often awarded to the server that had the highest population at that time, thereby making the rich even richer. It may be argued that if you have blood-lust you have obviously split up and capped the points, but often as not in practice if you are a defending force against a 45+ man blob that gained triple blood-lust due to a massive base population it is hard to pull it off them as you have to defend against that blob.

The stat nerf was a positive thing as it lead to more even fights, with the incentive to stomp remaining – meaning that there is a strong motivation for farming kills. Reducing the stats means that the fights are fairer and more competitive, and also means that killing a 50+ (* bloodlust) man blob with 25 defenders on map isn’t kittenedly hard. However, bloodlust has always incentivised larger groups, and supported the more populated server.

To the guys who are arguing so strongly for the stat buff, why do you want to get an overpowered stat buff while you currently outnumber most of your opponents in most timezones if you are facing any non-t1 server. I’d have just been happy with the points from stomping, but the passive stat bonus was always too much as it unbalances fights even more in favour of the bigger zerg.

tl;dr: Nerfing bloodlust is the way to go, as stat bonuses dependent on player pop always favour the larger zerg.

Heinel.6548:

Johje Holan.4607:

A mechanic that adds to PPT for the stronger side is still power creep. And I’m not convinced of the argument about the points on stomp benefitting the under-populated side.

There’s no need for arguments when facts fly in your face. BG is the lightest of the top three, and is only competitive now because of point on stomp.

If you have not actually try the mechanic, you are in no position to criticize it’s efficacy.

Actually there is a “direct contradiction” to that…

BG even as “the lightest of the top 3” can put out more than enough people to dominate any match with T2 opponents and when facing most of the potential T2 Gold League Servers there will be long stretches of time where “skillful havoc play for Stomps” simply isn’t possible because BG will have more Roamers on the Map (in addition to the Map Zerg) than total number of Opponents (sometimes from both Servers combined).

I personally think the problem is one of scaling – 3 PPS is too high/impactful but 1 PPS might be too low (honestly we don’t have any stats/metrics yet to know if the change is impactful to participation. The 3 T1 NA Servers haven’t faced each other in a Match since it went in. BG-JQ-TC is the closest we have to a match we can draw data from and I haven’t heard anything one way or another on relative action in the Ruins since it went live, especially since it also went in with PvE content which impacts WvW participation on those 3 Servers).

Personally I think they need to redo the entire Scoring/PPT System but two “simpler” changes I can see them making are:

1 – Increase the PPT Values of Camps and Yaks and restore 1/2/3 per Stomp (still makes it valuable but increases its impact)
2 – Make the progression 1/1/2 as that reduces overall impact but still makes owning all 3 valuable.

What irks me the most though is there is one obvious change they should make but won’t which is people with Outnumbered shouldn’t contribute any Points when Stomped. That is where the problem with +3 PPS was “ugliest” for me – why should I go out and snipe or havok on BGBL when killing me is often worth as much or more for BG as anything I might earn through sniping Yaks? (and please don’t come back with “oh just take the Ruins” because in these situations BGBL is effectively on “lockdown”)

Heinel.6548:

Johje Holan.4607:

A mechanic that adds to PPT for the stronger side is still power creep. And I’m not convinced of the argument about the points on stomp benefitting the under-populated side.

There’s no need for arguments when facts fly in your face. BG is the lightest of the top three, and is only competitive now because of point on stomp.

If you have not actually try the mechanic, you are in no position to criticize it’s efficacy.

Where are these facts? This statement is totally unsubstantiated, “BG is the lightest of the top three, and is only competitive now because of point on stomp.”

I would gladly give up the stat boost and keep the point per stomp the way it was.

Point per stomp is us players actually adding in points through fights instead of sitting behind the wall on a arrow cart holding the structure for points while the other server tried to get in. It was a compelling reason to not sit behind the walls on siege.

Johje Holan.4607:

Heinel.6548:

Johje Holan.4607:

A mechanic that adds to PPT for the stronger side is still power creep. And I’m not convinced of the argument about the points on stomp benefitting the under-populated side.

There’s no need for arguments when facts fly in your face. BG is the lightest of the top three, and is only competitive now because of point on stomp.

If you have not actually try the mechanic, you are in no position to criticize it’s efficacy.

Where are these facts? This statement is totally unsubstantiated, “BG is the lightest of the top three, and is only competitive now because of point on stomp.”

Actually, we technically are but it isn’t by a huge margin like other servers. We just have players more willing to put in extra hours to cover the gaps. Blackgate has very competetive players on willing to do what we need to do to get that win.

Tarkus.4109:

The massive stat bonus was often awarded to the server that had the highest population at that time, thereby making the rich even richer. It may be argued that if you have blood-lust you have obviously split up and capped the points, but often as not in practice if you are a defending force against a 45+ man blob that gained triple blood-lust due to a massive base population it is hard to pull it off them as you have to defend against that blob.

The stat nerf was a positive thing as it lead to more even fights, with the incentive to stomp remaining – meaning that there is a strong motivation for farming kills. Reducing the stats means that the fights are fairer and more competitive, and also means that killing a 50+ (* bloodlust) man blob with 25 defenders on map isn’t kittenedly hard. However, bloodlust has always incentivised larger groups, and supported the more populated server.

To the guys who are arguing so strongly for the stat buff, why do you want to get an overpowered stat buff while you currently outnumber most of your opponents in most timezones if you are facing any non-t1 server. I’d have just been happy with the points from stomping, but the passive stat bonus was always too much as it unbalances fights even more in favour of the bigger zerg.

tl;dr: Nerfing bloodlust is the way to go, as stat bonuses dependent on player pop always favour the larger zerg.

You probabely should read the posts before posting as no one is arguing for stat buff:)

Reslinal.2359:

You probabely should read the posts before posting as no one is arguing for stat buff:)

You should have read some of the previous posts and threads about this earlier where people have argued for the stat buff. Note that I also said in the post that the bloodlust changes didn’t encourage small team play, it encourages more of the blobbing that people complain about. In that larger pop servers would get it for the buff, if not to split off into smaller teams – I was basically saying that it was intended to split the zerg but failed in doing so.

Tarkus.4109:

Reslinal.2359:

You probabely should read the posts before posting as no one is arguing for stat buff:)

You should have read some of the previous posts and threads about this earlier where people have argued for the stat buff. Note that I also said in the post that the bloodlust changes didn’t encourage small team play, it encourages more of the blobbing that people complain about. In that larger pop servers would get it for the buff, if not to split off into smaller teams – I was basically saying that it was intended to split the zerg but failed in doing so.

Hmm..as far as I can see, most if not all posts in this thread is arguing ANET should not remove the ppt on stomp and should remove the stat buffs, mind link to who your posts are responding to?

As for whether bloodlust buff split the zerg or not, guess different players have different experiences since I certainly see more havoc groups running around since the bloodlust change.

Rackhir Tanelorn.9123:

Actually there is a “direct contradiction” to that…

BG even as “the lightest of the top 3” can put out more than enough people to dominate any match with T2 opponents and when facing most of the potential T2 Gold League Servers there will be long stretches of time where “skillful havoc play for Stomps” simply isn’t possible because BG will have more Roamers on the Map (in addition to the Map Zerg) than total number of Opponents (sometimes from both Servers combined).

I personally think the problem is one of scaling – 3 PPS is too high/impactful but 1 PPS might be too low (honestly we don’t have any stats/metrics yet to know if the change is impactful to participation. The 3 T1 NA Servers haven’t faced each other in a Match since it went in. BG-JQ-TC is the closest we have to a match we can draw data from and I haven’t heard anything one way or another on relative action in the Ruins since it went live, especially since it also went in with PvE content which impacts WvW participation on those 3 Servers).

Personally I think they need to redo the entire Scoring/PPT System but two “simpler” changes I can see them making are:

1 – Increase the PPT Values of Camps and Yaks and restore 1/2/3 per Stomp (still makes it valuable but increases its impact)
2 – Make the progression 1/1/2 as that reduces overall impact but still makes owning all 3 valuable.

What irks me the most though is there is one obvious change they should make but won’t which is people with Outnumbered shouldn’t contribute any Points when Stomped. That is where the problem with +3 PPS was “ugliest” for me – why should I go out and snipe or havok on BGBL when killing me is often worth as much or more for BG as anything I might earn through sniping Yaks? (and please don’t come back with “oh just take the Ruins” because in these situations BGBL is effectively on “lockdown”)

There is no direct contradiction. You have misread the situation entirely. There currently isn’t a mechanic that prevents complete blowouts. If you are unable to rally your server’s morale, then you do not deserve a win in the league. Period.

The top 3 servers has already matched with each other under the stomp for point system. It was the week before the current period. Check the match history website.

JQueue was the undisputed top server with full map coverage around the clock. Neither SoR nor BG can field that kind of coverage. However, for servers where the difference isn’t too large, the stomp for point system can make up for coverage differences. How big of a coverage difference this can mitigate depends on how many points you can get out of the mechanic.

TL:DR
In other words, if they want to decrease the gap between T1 and T2, they need to significantly boost the stomp for point mechanic. At the minimum, double the points right now, as well as introducing additional ways to further increase war score gain over a shorter period. TC, for example, is competitive during their peak time against the T1 servers. All they need is a way to capitalize on their play time and accumulate enough points to mitigate the effects of night capping, and they’ll have a very good shot at winning Gold league.

Reslinal.2359:

Tarkus.4109:

Reslinal.2359:

You probabely should read the posts before posting as no one is arguing for stat buff:)

You should have read some of the previous posts and threads about this earlier where people have argued for the stat buff. Note that I also said in the post that the bloodlust changes didn’t encourage small team play, it encourages more of the blobbing that people complain about. In that larger pop servers would get it for the buff, if not to split off into smaller teams – I was basically saying that it was intended to split the zerg but failed in doing so.

Hmm..as far as I can see, most if not all posts in this thread is arguing ANET should not remove the ppt on stomp and should remove the stat buffs, mind link to who your posts are responding to?

As for whether bloodlust buff split the zerg or not, guess different players have different experiences since I certainly see more havoc groups running around since the bloodlust change.

Tarkus is just in this thread to troll and see if he can torch a few more bridges behind him because he noticed a lot of Blackgate posters in the thread. Same stuff as he’s been doing ever since he transferred to JQ and made it his personal quest to offend every single last player on Blackgate.

As for bloodlust, making WvW more about combat is certainly not a bad direction for ANet to take, but if they’re going to do so they need to stick to their guns a little better. Developing by forum QQ is a very bad method. Also, making major changes to the scoring system three days before leagues start was probably not the best move.

Tarkus.4109:

Reslinal.2359:

You probabely should read the posts before posting as no one is arguing for stat buff:)

You should have read some of the previous posts and threads about this earlier where people have argued for the stat buff. Note that I also said in the post that the bloodlust changes didn’t encourage small team play, it encourages more of the blobbing that people complain about. In that larger pop servers would get it for the buff, if not to split off into smaller teams – I was basically saying that it was intended to split the zerg but failed in doing so.

Tarkus, thanks for your reply’s in this thread, for a healthy discussion on the topic its important to have views for and against the mechanic so anet can make a educated choice on the matter.

Also there is a post in here saying they should increase the stat bonus, I believe the poster was being sarcastic thinking that we were looking to have the whole bloodlust mechanic restored, which is not the case.

As for your comments on small group play, splitting zergs, and the strong get stronger. I feel you are both right and wrong. It does encourage more roamers and small groups BUT you have to have people willing and dedicated in doing so, luckily BG has some very dedicated guilds on this front and as a representatives from a few of these guilds said, both JQ and SoR were forming quite a few more small groups to counter ours. That said, if it does not encourage small groups to form away from the zerg, why is SoR and JQ starting to do so more consistently?

Now as some of the other concerned players from under populated matches pointed out, its very hard to maintain the orbs while being greatly outmanned. This is very similar to us (BG) vs JQ’s SEA forces, luckily we have forces in other time zones to counter this. Also the bloodlust to a point counters PvD time zones, in SEA JQ has significantly less opposition so even with 3 orbs has less possibility of gaining stomps. Now if you look at NA where all 3 servers have a large force, it allows for points in those time zones to be gained back. Also with close to equal population it makes it harder to maintain bloodlust. This go’s back to splitting up the zerg.

Now lastly I think when “splitting up the zerg” is said every one assumes each server will break up into groups of ~30 people and run about and I don’t think that will ever really happen. The point of bloodlust was to have small groups break off the zerg. In the current game model blobbing will never stop happening unless commanders do something about it. Its on the player base not anet right now…

Just to clarify, everything said above is under the assumption that the points for stomps is reverted and stats are nerf/removed. With the stats in place, the strong get stronger is absolutely clear and was a bad call from the start.

Tarkus.4109:

Putting on my tin foil hat here but I believe you and your time zones benefit from the bloodlust nerf. With the nerf, EU/NA has no way of trying to retake some of the points lost in your SEA time zone. And gaining a point tick in NA like you are able to in SEA is near impossible. Sound’s like your scared to lose on JQ now that you jumped on the wagon so to speak.

tldr:

1. Stats bonus was too powerful, and the nerf was agreeable by all sane players.
2. The old stomp bonus created more dynamic and interesting play for zerg and non-zerg players in competitive matchups.
3. In non-competitive match-ups, the old stomp bonus didn’t effect the out come of winners and losers of the given matchup.
4. The current stomp point nerf relagates zergs back to dps’ing downed players instead of stomping.
5. The stomp point nerf discourages small group roaming on all but one borderland.

200% what boulder said. I am in disbelief what the past week has done to WvW. First the nerf to stomp points and then the league schedule. Jesus, we know that devs play on JQ, but maybe they could learn to PvP instead of adjusting the game to lack skill?

As a pure roamer since pre-release the old stomp points introduced with the new borderlands were the single best change made in this game ever. It gave real incentive without artificially enhancing someone`s power. Even completely without stat bonus, the old stomp points would`ve been important enough to fight for.

It is so hugely disappointing to see how Anet has no clue about their changes and revertes back what was exactly the refreshing and best part of it – the old stomp mechanic…

Bets regards

A 2 hour+ queue in every borderland, and we can’t find a single person in the Bloodlust area. The area is as dead as the quaggans were.