Guild Wars 2

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

Osu.6307:

I love these "I’m a great wvw player so why oh why do I get kicked for playing a roaming class (ranger, thief, engi, mesmer). You are playing a roaming class. Go ROAM! If you really wanted to zerg, you would play a zerg class. Good commanders will allow crappy guardians into squad and kick amazing rangers, WHICH SHOULD TELL YOU SOMETHING!!!

so much for play the game your way. I will rebut this by saying that I think its funny that anyone would take wvw seriously in 2017 when there are no rewards or anything gained really by getting rank 1 server at the end of the week.

There seems to be a lot of commanders who know each other on cross servers, so big guilds are pretty competitive. The rewards were never the main reason (at least before the pip system)

JessieAngel.6254:

Ok so I love playing WvW and have from the beginning.

So this is what has happened twice now where a commander (and this in Not new commanders) comes to a map and started asking people to join the squad and then after a while when they have a decent sized squad they started kicking Rangers and Thiefs from the squad. I PM them to ask what’s going on and the one response I go was you are a Ranger and the other one did not bother to respond.

That is messed up!

Get a proper class.

Dunno why this is still a heated topic.
The commander is the one who made the squad. He decides who he lets in. If you want to be included, tag up yourself and stop whining.

Guardian is main force of the frontline, gives stab, needs to be in squad.
Warrior is main part of DPS, needs stab, needs to be in squad.
Necro is main part of DPS, needs stab, needs to be in squad.
Revenant is main part of support, needs stab, needs to be in squad.
Boonshare Mesmer is main part of support, needs stab, needs to be in squad.
D/F ele is main part of support, needs stab, needs to be in squad.

Staff Ele is main part of support and dps, but doesn’t need stab, doesn’t need to be in squad. There are range tags, who can work together with squad markers.

Druid is a healer or single target dps. Does not need stab to accomplish either of these roles. Doesn’t need to be in squad.
Engineer is support class, with lots of stealth. Doesn’t need stab to accomplish either of these things, and has bunch of personal stab from ElixB, dodges and Gyros if specs for those. Doesn’t need to be in squad.
Thief has singletarget dps and cleave with staff. Doesn’t need stab to gank people on the sides. Doesn’t need to be in squad.

If squad has free spots, then by all means fill them with the other classes. For druids and rangers, do remember that enemies will epidemic off your pet if you leave it open, which will get your allies killed. This is why most people don’t like rangers in squad, because they leave their pets up.

Medium armor classes by design offer less for zerg play than light and heavy. So they get left out. You can accomplish as much as you need to do outside of squad. And why do you need to be in squad anw as thief, engineer, ranger?
Also I think it’s worth mentioning that I am an engineer main, and I would never take a slot in squad from the mandatory classes, because I can do just as much outside of the squad. It’s a l2p issue.

When I’m leading and have less than 50 players in squad, everyone is welcome. When I have 50 players and a guardian wants to join, I’ll kick rangers, thieves and engineers. If I need more space, eles will go (unless heal melee). If people leave the squad and we have space again, ranger, thieves and engineers are welcome again. It’s very simple. And has nothing to do with personal grudges or bias. It’s just how the game works, and how I want to manage my squad.

Please try and understand that there isn’t any malice in commanders doing this. Everyone wants to win, and the most efficient way to manage a squad is to have an optimal setup. If a commander fails to convey this information to new players, then it’s the commanders fault, but more experiences players are expect to understand the basics.

I personally will always tell people that I’m going to kick them before doing so, and explain why. And exceptions can be made if proper reasons are given, or the individual shows great skill and effectiveness. Talk to your players and commanders, instead of making forum posts calling this unforgivable or messed up.

Finally I’ll again emphasize that you do not deserve a squad spot just because you exist. If someone decides to tag up, they will decide how they manage the squad. “I want to be included” is not good enough reason for 4 other people to go out of their way to provide you stab, resistance and healing in a party. Just like you have the freedom to follow any commander you choose, they have the freedom to make the squad look like they choose.

Threather.9354:

• Rangers have no burst damage or reliable cc in zerg fights

Ahahahahaahahahahaahahahahaahahahahahaahahahahaahaha, no.

fake news

ImLegion.4018:

JessieAngel.6254:

Ok so I love playing WvW and have from the beginning.

So this is what has happened twice now where a commander (and this in Not new commanders) comes to a map and started asking people to join the squad and then after a while when they have a decent sized squad they started kicking Rangers and Thiefs from the squad. I PM them to ask what’s going on and the one response I go was you are a Ranger and the other one did not bother to respond.

That is messed up!

Get a proper class.

Delete your account

BloodMoonASURA.3564:

Thief has singletarget dps and cleave with staff. Doesn’t need stab to gank people on the sides. Doesn’t need to be in squad.

Ok, I’ll bite here.

Basic Shotgun Thief: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQFAVlsMhSnY5TwoJQ/ELUF1c139hv3F8BlQXPFAHAA-T1BDABep87PdAAcBAMUJI97PM9DAoT1fCAgAYoDdoDdoDtbezbezbezSBAz0I-w

How it works: Stay on the tag, spam clusterbombs (blast finishers). Once you’re in melee range, steal to boonrip/share, then pop spider venom, and spam clusterbombs. Use your dodges to mitigate your initiative use, however you can get off 8 clusterbombs in a row before you’re out. When you’re out, blinding powder for another blast finisher, and bounce your auto attack off the targets. When they’re in a compact group, you can pop dagger storm, or when you just want to act as a distraction. Also use your blinding powder on the tag when they’re being pinsniped. Use Infiltrator’s Arrow to get back to the tag if you get out of position.

Variation: weaponswap to d/d. Now you’re a Distraction Thief. Target someone in the middle of their group. Steal to boonrip. Death Blossom, Death Blossom, Dodge, Death Blossom, Dodge back to your group, shadowstep back into the middle, Dagger Storm as pushing out their back ranks. Break Dagger Storm halfway through with another dodge, because you will be getting targetted and you will have their back line’s full attention. Shadowstep back to your group. Rinse and repeat.
——————————————————
Front Line Control Thief: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAsaVnsMBlOhlPBGmC0PhFqiqLBCgDwLE+gSYO77+yH-TFCDQBkUJI92fAQ6DEmyPAcKAok6PT7IAIgHAQAAEgb2ml5MDM0hO0hO0h2Nv5Nv5NvZpAYTZE-w

How to Play: Use your shortbow initially, in the same manner as the shotgun build, just to build up stacks. Once you’re full, switch to your melee weapons. infiltrator’s strike is your equivalent of Guardian’s Leap of Faith. Black Powder, then Pistol Whip. Cleave while moving, popping off Black Powder on occasion. When they refresh, steal in and pop Dagger Storm, but be ready to dodge back quickly. Use Blinding Powder to break target, and Bandit’s Defense when getting pushed. Use Black Powder on their downs.

Retaliation. Dagger Storm. Many hits over a short duration. Not good.

Basilisk Venom is better in 98% of cases.

ArchonWing.9480:

Retaliation. Dagger Storm. Many hits over a short duration. Not good.

Basilisk Venom is better in 98% of cases.

It’s a timing issue. Watch their buffs, use it when they don’t have retal up, break it halfway through, move back to your group to refresh. For the second build, if they waste their refresh to retal spike you, good. Disrupting their refresh was your main goal. They killed 1 thief, but haven’t cleansed, haven’t healed, haven’t rebuffed, and have to try to deal with the rest of your group. You win that equation.

use it when they don’t have retal up

That is the issue. There are many, many sources of retaliation. It is literally crapped out.

On the other hand, they’re more likely to run out of stability or have it removed and not as easily reapplied.

Stunning people with Basilisk also has more synergy with your shortbow 4 and the fact you’re already taking the poison venom. You and your friends can literally stunlock people into oblivion.

Jayne.9251:

Learn who to support as a commander and who not to.

If they are arbitrarily kicking people out of squads, follow a commander that doesn’t.

Soon, the more inclusive commander will get the following, while the other guy will be scratching his head wondering why he’s alone.

Otherwise, get your own tag and tag up and create the environment you want on map.

You have choices. So does the commander on map. If you don’t like it, then create your own.

This post seems to summarily answer most of the unbridled rage on this forum, come on guys what the heck lmao.

ArchonWing.9480:

use it when they don’t have retal up

That is the issue. There are many, many sources of retaliation. It is literally crapped out.

On the other hand, they’re more likely to run out of stability or have it removed and not as easily reapplied.

Stunning people with Basilisk also has more synergy with your shortbow 4 and the fact you’re already taking the poison venom. You and your friends can literally stunlock people into oblivion.

Fair enough. Though on the s/p build, I’ve been using Impact strike as extra CC and a good closing combo straight into a fast stomp. It can be a little iffy in the midst of things, though.

Hi all, I havent read through all pages of this, but my thoughts are..

Just play what you find fun. Dont feel forced to reroll just to be part of a blob/zerg.
There are guilds and squads out there that dont judge or kick based on class/profession.
Find one of those and just do what you find fun.
I’ve played thief since release and refuse the public squad invites that are sent and just join my guilds squad.
Theres no kittening, no moaning, no kicking just a bunch of people doing what they find fun and having a laugh.
We dont use voice coms, we dont zerg(bunch up on each other). We just chill have fun and defend the home border.
We do encounter blobs, and can normally defend well agaisnt them even with our lack of organisation.
Since the addition of pips, lots of new blobs have appeared. We have had a lot of fun this week destroying them in a unorganised fasion.

TL:DR: Just play what you find fun, find people to play with that will accept you the way you are. Dont feel forced to roll something you dont want just to be part of a squad. You can be effective without them if that’s what you want.

TiNG.3964:

Just play what you find fun. Dont feel forced to reroll just to be part of a blob/zerg.

Handle the kicks then. Its teamplay, log something useful and problem solved.

Osu.6307:

I love these "I’m a great wvw player so why oh why do I get kicked for playing a roaming class (ranger, thief, engi, mesmer). You are playing a roaming class. Go ROAM! If you really wanted to zerg, you would play a zerg class. Good commanders will allow crappy guardians into squad and kick amazing rangers, WHICH SHOULD TELL YOU SOMETHING!!!

I find your post the very essence of what is wrong in WvW.

The very thought that those classes should be termed roaming is where you and so many others are so wrong.

I pick up more heavies on a healing/hybrid druid and save more fights than most other toons.

But I am not blowing my own very capable horn, I am also including incredibly skilled mesmers, thieves, and engi as well as druids and rangers.

You want a comp that might not work or do you want to win the fight with better players than the other side.

Good players on any toon are better than mediocre players on your ‘wanted’ comps.

WvW was far better off when there were no ‘comps’ in groups and everyone brought what they played their very best on.

Aury.1367:

TiNG.3964:

Just play what you find fun. Dont feel forced to reroll just to be part of a blob/zerg.

Handle the kicks then. Its teamplay, log something useful and problem solved.

A toon one plays well is useful.

Just because you can’t play the other classes well doesn’t mean others can’t.

Why dont you just make a party with the other people that were excluded and don’t want to be solo?

It’s at the commander’s discretion whether he includes rangers and thieves or not. I don’t bother joining squad for blue tags, and actively avoid it most of the time, but I’ll sit in ts so I know what they’re doing and how I can help (hitting objectives, following and reporting the position of the enemy blob, and ganking as many backliners as possible).

Play to your strengths: fighting fair isn’t a thief’s strong point, so don’t do it.

back in the days of another MMO we’d laugh at leaders that only accepted certain AT’s. It’s a shame that’s changed.

When I don’t play d/d core ele and cleave kittens zergs infront of commanders and his/her zerg! I play Daredevil pogo thief cav and maurader mixture to face tank and cleave the head of the zerg. It’s super fun and on thief forum lots of sustain and you can zip around until you get heavy cc and condi burst and you can still live for 15 seconds before dying.

You can easily kill guards infront of keeps and tower and you will get credit when it gets capped as long as you’re on the map.

Easy.

Napo.1230:

I get thief but druid..really? Have you seen how much healing one can put out? If the melee train melts it’s game over

And they always blame the pve guy for their own fault. They even shoot out builds but no stats or anything else.. GG

Why not roam solo then? Ranger and thief are 2 of the best roaming classes right now. They may not be great in zergs, but they’re great at roaming and dueling. If they were great at everything they would be overpowered like mesmers are in wvw. Your job as thief or ranger should be taking camps, scouting, picking off the strays with crappy builds falling behind the zerg. That’s what I do anyway, you’re only good in a zerg as a ranger if you have one of those boring support builds and i cant stand playing that. Blowing people up while roaming is alot more fun.

wanna play druid? play support druid, otherwise be prepared to be kicked
I kick any Vanilla Rangers (Literally Free Bags), and if I “have” to make room ill kick any power/condi druids first, and then any useless thieves keeping the healing druids.
LB Ranger is so pointless with all the mace/shield guards, Aura Eles, WoRs, the Rev Wall thing.

Why? cause they came to be team player. If you wanna stand back and PEW PEW play hammer Rev

and this is why i dont play WvW to much because my favorite class is thief but they are pretty much useless and easy as kitten to kill when i play other classes. with the nerf to backstab and all the reveals in the game which hard counter an entire traitline to the point where no one plays it anymore your better off spamming shadowshot twice than setting up for a backstab. i also believe WvW and PvE need to be balanced separately look what happened to rev they nerfed its boon duration for WvW and it not only destroyed its viability to raids it also destroyed raid diversity.

ArcanistSeven.8720:

and this is why i dont play WvW to much because my favorite class is thief but they are pretty much useless and easy as kitten to kill when i play other classes. with the nerf to backstab and all the reveals in the game which hard counter an entire traitline to the point where no one plays it anymore your better off spamming shadowshot twice than setting up for a backstab. i also believe WvW and PvE need to be balanced separately look what happened to rev they nerfed its boon duration for WvW and it not only destroyed its viability to raids it also destroyed raid diversity.

I can’t speak for your side for your side of things, however a lot of thieves that I see (both friendly and enemy) are pretty strong. Also despite the “many reveals” there are still lots roaming that I see (heck, I play one myself, mind you I run revealed Training so im down if someone wants to reveal me lol).

QuickRain.4735:

wanna play druid? play support druid, otherwise be prepared to be kicked
I kick any Vanilla Rangers (Literally Free Bags), and if I “have” to make room ill kick any power/condi druids first, and then any useless thieves keeping the healing druids.
LB Ranger is so pointless with all the mace/shield guards, Aura Eles, WoRs, the Rev Wall thing.

Why? cause they came to be team player. If you wanna stand back and PEW PEW play hammer Rev

Fun fact, LB5 on rangers damage is not from the projectiles, its from the field. Thus it doesnt get blocked by projectile blockers. Unlike most other ranged attacks.

ArcanistSeven.8720:

and this is why i dont play WvW to much because my favorite class is thief but they are pretty much useless and easy as kitten to kill when i play other classes. with the nerf to backstab and all the reveals in the game which hard counter an entire traitline to the point where no one plays it anymore your better off spamming shadowshot twice than setting up for a backstab. i also believe WvW and PvE need to be balanced separately look what happened to rev they nerfed its boon duration for WvW and it not only destroyed its viability to raids it also destroyed raid diversity.

Most of the reveals at close range AOE or require you to target the thief first. Due to shadowsteps or other “blink” skills. it can be incredibly hard to actually reveal a thief. Not to mention, the few reveals that are ingame is pointless, because their duration is so short that the thief has far too many evades/shadowsteps to completely counter-act them.

Reveal is the most overhyped useless “condition” you can put on a thief. You are better of speccing something that does a condi nuke or Chill/Slow. MUCH more effective.

This comes from a Ranger/Druid who used to run beastmaster condi bunker before HoT. When the pets hit like a truck and Sic’em actually was destructive against thieves.

Reveal never really bothers me much. I don’t think most thieves care about stealth that much anymore. You have enough evades and mobility to survive. Thief still seems pretty strong to me, the only thing i really have problems killing sometimes, oddly enough are rangers. The good ones anyway that don’t have trash pve builds and know how to use their class. Neither thief nor ranger are useless in wvw, but many players playing them that think they’re actually good at it are. If you think they’re weak, you just have a bad build or are just bad at the class.

And as others have pointed out, any commander that doesn’t realize the value of a good thief or ranger is a bad commander that you shouldn’t be following or listening to anyway. Good commanders see the value in all classes and all roles. If you’re being excluded, either the commander is bad, or you’re bad. You need to find out which that is.

Nikkinella.8254:

Reveal never really bothers me much. I don’t think most thieves care about stealth that much anymore. You have enough evades and mobility to survive. Thief still seems pretty strong to me, the only thing i really have problems killing sometimes, oddly enough are rangers. The good ones anyway that don’t have trash pve builds and know how to use their class. Neither thief nor ranger are useless in wvw, but many players playing them that think they’re actually good at it are. If you think they’re weak, you just have a bad build or are just bad at the class.

And as others have pointed out, any commander that doesn’t realize the value of a good thief or ranger is a bad commander that you shouldn’t be following or listening to anyway. Good commanders see the value in all classes and all roles. If you’re being excluded, either the commander is bad, or you’re bad. You need to find out which that is.

Agreed. As a ranger player, it doesnt matter what build the thief or ranger has really. First to hit with a burst wins 8/10 times. Only exception is when one or the other mess up.

Oh my god what a useless discussion this is. You are saying that commander is kicking two roamer professions from their TEAM? They have every right to do so. I play thief too, if I wanna join a tag, I switch to my other toon, which is geared for team play. If you are dedicated to play thief or ranger under a tag, just join a wvw guild and show that you can really play it. Then they will use your abilities too.

I mean guys come on. There are millions of options, and it is not even up to you. Comm can choose his/her team, just like the team can choose a comm. It was always like this. Why are you even still discussing this?

im more so kittening because i loved playing a backstab thief but its not worth it anymore because i find you can do more damage by using shadowshot twice which sucks because i loved that playstyle. they do some damage but so can any other class and when i play rev i reveal thieves all the time. i love thief its my most played class by like 2000 hours out of either 3000 or 4000 of my total playtime. i also think its a little unfair to these classes to kick them because they play a certain class but thats mostly a design flaw hopefully the new elite specs will have thief benefit a squad though im not sure why ranger gets kicked they can hit you from a range of 1500 and heal people.

Nikkinella.8254:

And as others have pointed out, any commander that doesn’t realize the value of a good thief or ranger is a bad commander that you shouldn’t be following or listening to anyway. Good commanders see the value in all classes and all roles. If you’re being excluded, either the commander is bad, or you’re bad. You need to find out which that is.

It’s not about “who is more valuable”; it’s about “who benefits the most from the guards in the melee zerg”.

I’ll try to make an example:
Commander has 60 people on tag and the squad is full. There is still a thief in the squad when a condi reaper joins the zerg.

Now who do you want in your squad?
The condi reaper who is running with the melees and needs the stability of the two guards in a group, or the thief who is running around the enemy zerg killing their casters?

The reaper benefits from the squad. A reaper without stability is too easily stunned (and killed).
The thief doesn’t benefit from the squad as he doesn’t run with the melees and therefore won’t get the boons from the guards anyway.

Staff eles are valuable for the zerg and they also get kicked when the squad is full! A staff ele who runs with the guards is dead.
Therefore you have a caster squad, which the thieves can use as well.

Again:
It’s not about “who is more valuable”; it’s about “who benefits the most from the guards in the melee zerg”.

You make too much sense.

It will fall on deaf ears sadly. People don’t care that they are working to the group’s detriment as long as their feelings are safe. And everyone gets less bag and success because of it. They do not understand the purpose of squad compositions. Only that they need to be part of it.

Blobbered on druid last night after not using for months. Didnt need or want a squad. Inventory got full mid fight. Was only 100 slot though.

Granted it is only against late night ocx blobs which are super soft atm but still, stop the excuses and think about the group’s success over your own. You win anyways if they do.

Also reflects really aren’t that common as stated especially against pug blobs. People forget them a lot even if in theory this is easy.

Celsith.2753:

Why dont you just make a party with the other people that were excluded and don’t want to be solo?

“Because they’re bad.”
…
“Oh, wait.”

ArchonWing.9480:

use it when they don’t have retal up

That is the issue. There are many, many sources of retaliation. It is literally crapped out.

On the other hand, they’re more likely to run out of stability or have it removed and not as easily reapplied.

Stunning people with Basilisk also has more synergy with your shortbow 4 and the fact you’re already taking the poison venom. You and your friends can literally stunlock people into oblivion.

I’m using DS for 4 years now. I haven’t been killed by retatliation once. DS is a really nice and useful skill, which unfortunately was indirectly dumbed down by lesser combos being used. You’re wrong on your assumption that DS gets me killed – it doesn’t.

I never actually said getting killed was the reason though. Retaliation is more common than stability and thus harder to counter. I wanted to point out that it would be hard to hit them when they don’t have it.

It is being compared to alternatives with half the cooldown, and also affects your party. It is also safe.

Besides, we are talking about a clusterbomb build.

BloodMoonASURA.3564:

Druid is a healer or single target dps. Does not need stab to accomplish either of these roles. Doesn’t need to be in squad.

I’ll go take all my water and play over there than.

Seriously though, my Druid heals for alot. Heals for alot less without stab due to cc wars. Never had a problem finding a spot in squad with stab either (if there’s enough guards).

Well druids can bring their own stab too a bit better than necros and revs. But that is sort of a reason to have them lower on the priority list.

ArchonWing.9480:

Well druids can bring their own stab too a bit better than necros and revs. But that is sort of a reason to have them lower on the priority list.

Actually stab on druids and rangers is the worst in game: 1 second cast in 75 seconds CD for 5 stacks .

Reapers are in much better situation (still not at the level of a guard or warrior which IMO doesn’t make sense as they should have easier access to it at least in shroud) than druids or rangers. Rangers seem better because they fill they utility bar with stun breaks because of such of lack of stab.

Either case although i main druid i have to agree with the commanders which kick druids or rangers (and by extension thiefs or engies).

Those classes do not bring anything usable or usefull for the groups and for WvW sort of speak. It is not the commanders fault but Anet’s for not being able to desing utilities to be used in zergs. For example in the case of the ranger:

Nerf which destroyed workable group builds:

• Nerf to spirits (removing the trait to make them mobile) destroyed the only group support build the ranger had to offer.
• Nerf to lingering light trait destroyed the posilibity of druid having an oportunity as a front line healer.
• Nerf to trappers expertise (use to make traps throwable to 600) destroyed any ranged AoE build for the ranger and also any Condition build usable in WvW.

• Lack of AoE for the ranger and druid makes the class do almost no impact in GvG as the stacking can easly dish out the single target damage from the class.
• Lack of a condition build for mobile targets make the ranger not to do any real impact against the new Dire/TB condi builds and put the ranger/druid in a underperforming position compared to other Focus/Support classes which can do as good as the druid in terms of support and dich more damage overall to help the zerg.

So unless Anet does something (practically rework the core ranger/pets) ranger/druid has no actual place in GvG (or ZvZ)

It would be nice for the thief to have a build which applied some kind of offensive support, being able to share offensive effects.

ArchonWing.9480:

I never actually said getting killed was the reason though. Retaliation is more common than stability and thus harder to counter. I wanted to point out that it would be hard to hit them when they don’t have it.

It is being compared to alternatives with half the cooldown, and also affects your party. It is also safe.

Besides, we are talking about a clusterbomb build.

Both builds wouldn’t work – I can tell you that much. Sinderer made staff thief work and I can too but only up until large zergs, no chance in blobs – I’d need to practise a lot more to do that but I can’t make a build for D/D and staff, D/D being my main set and I want to keep it like that.
I have no idea what “it’s hard to hit them if they don’t have retaliation” means.
I have no party in a blobfight, I can buff some randoms around me if I’ve got the time.
The cooldown.. yes only reason not to use a skill, right? (I had a really huge fight with some chick who wouldn’t accept that I have my reasons to use DS and her argument against the skill was THE COOLDOWN – and she wouldn’t let go) Yes, right now I’m having a problem with the cooldown because I switched from trickster to boonstrip as that’s better for roaming – and also fun to boonstrip the commanders.
Other than that: DS has got stability, it hits as many people as possible, those right next to you 8 times. It’s a reflect and swirl finisher. That’s a lot more than BV.

anduriell.6280:

ArchonWing.9480:

Well druids can bring their own stab too a bit better than necros and revs. But that is sort of a reason to have them lower on the priority list.

Actually stab on druids and rangers is the worst in game: 1 second cast in 75 seconds CD for 5 stacks .

Reapers are in much better situation (still not at the level of a guard or warrior which IMO doesn’t make sense as they should have easier access to it at least in shroud) than druids or rangers. Rangers seem better because they fill they utility bar with stun breaks because of such of lack of stab.

Either case although i main druid i have to agree with the commanders which kick druids or rangers (and by extension thiefs or engies).

Well there’s also that signet (also long cooldown). Necros do have more stability options, but 2 of them require DS and the third requires a conditional (chilled to the bone). Also, transformation elites, but those come with the own set of issues.

And what about Revs? They got that brick road that requires dwarf stance and that nerfed to hell minor trait.

Of course, reapers/herald are still better in zerg fights no doubt.

As a pugmander who often has to organize the squad quickly — I don’t kick people from squad for being on certain classes, but I do put the parties together based on what makes sense. Thieves and Rangers get put in their own groups typically — people playing support/group classes/builds I put in the main parties.

It’s not that they aren’t useful, it’s just that certain professions/builds do not need to be in the core groups.

Draeyon.4392:

I’ll go take all my water and play over there than.

Seriously though, my Druid heals for alot. Heals for alot less without stab due to cc wars. Never had a problem finding a spot in squad with stab either (if there’s enough guards).

If only there was a class that could drop water fields from 1200 away so it wouldn’t need stab.

Oh noooooooo Thief isnt godmode at everything lets make it good at zerging too!!!

/s

Jana.6831:

ArchonWing.9480:

I never actually said getting killed was the reason though. Retaliation is more common than stability and thus harder to counter. I wanted to point out that it would be hard to hit them when they don’t have it.

It is being compared to alternatives with half the cooldown, and also affects your party. It is also safe.

Besides, we are talking about a clusterbomb build.

Both builds wouldn’t work – I can tell you that much. Sinderer made staff thief work and I can too but only up until large zergs, no chance in blobs – I’d need to practise a lot more to do that but I can’t make a build for D/D and staff, D/D being my main set and I want to keep it like that.
I have no idea what “it’s hard to hit them if they don’t have retaliation” means.
I have no party in a blobfight, I can buff some randoms around me if I’ve got the time.
The cooldown.. yes only reason not to use a skill, right? (I had a really huge fight with some chick who wouldn’t accept that I have my reasons to use DS and her argument against the skill was THE COOLDOWN – and she wouldn’t let go) Yes, right now I’m having a problem with the cooldown because I switched from trickster to boonstrip as that’s better for roaming – and also fun to boonstrip the commanders.
Other than that: DS has got stability, it hits as many people as possible, those right next to you 8 times. It’s a reflect and swirl finisher. That’s a lot more than BV.

DS is still very usable. I use it in a couple builds yet albeit the cooldown a bit of a pain.
I will often use it open field to whirl towards a pew pew ranger firing at me if other apporach methods not available.

Great in builds using SOM. Watch enemy die quickly when you in a friendly Combo field with another thief and you both do a DS in a Lords Room. As far as I am concerned BV is more for one on one stuff and small scale fights.

The problem with the forums in general is that it’s all theorycrafting.
By just looking at a build you can roughly estimate what might happen in a 1 vs 1, small scale and up until zergs, but in a blob all of that disappears. It’s that fast and has got that many variables that you can’t really estimate what will happen. I never really used BV, but I can tell you that in a 5 min long blobfight I might use it maybe twice as I really don’t have time for it. Also, I said in another thread – they nerfed choking gas (SB #4) for PvP because it was too strong there: From estimated 100 zerg and blob fights, and I usually only use CG because everything else is too slow/unreliable, I saw maybe 5-10 stuns.
And I’m actually fine with that, I’d just like the targeting mechanics to be a lot more reliable and SB2 to be faster. I have no idea how many thieves are running with a blob. It either seems to be not that easy or people think it’s useless, but I can assure you that I’m pulling my weight.

So as a Driver that sometimes Pugmands, insofar as my guild runs go, Ranger and thief is fine if I have enough for a Gank squad, other than that, sorry.

Most of you (and I say “most” not all:) ) are really bad, and you can get better with some training and research, but off the cuff, well no.

Don’t take it personally, I will pad my zerg with Rally Bait to pull out a bomb…

All depends on the commander I guess. While on my thief that I was doing well on, got invited to a squad. Asked if they were sure that they wanted a DD on their squad and the commander said “Why Not”?

in my server linkings, I have never seen this. Only time I have was a long time ago when I was on CD.

If the squad becomes full and properly built support class favor being in the squad than gankers then sure. Although I see no reason to kick them if it’s only half full.

Fat Disgrace.4275:

If the squad becomes full and properly built support class favor being in the squad than gankers then sure. Although I see no reason to kick them if it’s only half full.

Problem is not only kicking but if you put the druids in a group with the other rangers and thieves they won’t have access to other stab/resistance(from revs) than self. Which means they won’t be able to get in front line to heal with the water they provide.

To show numbers: with 500 healing power you are missing 4.5K direct healing plus the blasts.

Not possible if the druid is bounced from side to side with no possibility to escape because of the stun spamming crap is going on in this game.

anduriell.6280:

Fat Disgrace.4275:

If the squad becomes full and properly built support class favor being in the squad than gankers then sure. Although I see no reason to kick them if it’s only half full.

Problem is not only kicking but if you put the druids in a group with the other rangers and thieves they won’t have access to other stab/resistance(from revs) than self. Which means they won’t be able to get in front line to heal with the water they provide.

To show numbers: with 500 healing power you are missing 4.5K direct healing plus the blasts.

Not possible if the druid is bounced from side to side with no possibility to escape because of the stun spamming crap is going on in this game.

Well the entire idea of this discussion is what would be the point of this coming from a ranger? Extra water? Hahaha… All the eles in the squad will already provide perma waterfields. And if you want better water fields from another fringe class that got far more stability to stand up in the frontline, bring a scrapper. Mobile waterfields without skipping a beat.

This is sort of the core issue when we are talking 50 mans. Some classes arent even considered secondary. The thief is the same. Is it a good ganker? For sure. Can you bring a thief instead of GREN? Well yeah of course… but you could bring a dps mesmer instead and dedicate just one skill to a veil, maybe in some situations a portal, in order to assist the zerg.