Guild Wars 2

I can’t find players anymore not using these stats, it’s easily nine out of ten people running these stats on all classes atm. I hate this meta.

I was thinking, if there was a stat that was a dires version for power, I would guess maybe toughness vit ferocity, and people used runes and traits to make up for the precision, would there be topics everywhere about people being tanking and still doing all this high dmg?

So all guardians and elementalists use dire or trailblazer, but still use staff? Weird.

Burn guardian is front line zerg meta, someone is out of touch. . .

anet deleted elementalist from the game because it doesn’t have a good way to use traiblazer stats and revs are now the meta frontline healer. Just compare meteor shower to epidemic and cry after realizing just to what extent anet hates elementalist. Not even wvw, staff ele isn’t viable in ANY GAME MODE currently in gw2.

ProDecius.2609:

Burn guardian is front line zerg meta, someone is out of touch. . .

anet deleted elementalist from the game because it doesn’t have a good way to use traiblazer stats and revs are now the meta frontline healer. Just compare meteor shower to epidemic and cry after realizing just to what extent anet hates elementalist. Not even wvw, staff ele isn’t viable in ANY GAME MODE currently in gw2.

But 9/10. I saw lot’s of staff elementalist, staff guardians, longbow rangers and hammer reves yesterday. Some reapers even used GS and power foods.

Is your server a time capsule from 7 months ago?

I’m just going to play some ranked until I forget that wvw balance is FUBAR ( helping me not care about it). It’s seriously depressing how in spvp the necromancer that could only have 560 toughness or 900 vitality and would be a fair fight for my marauder power build on wtv class, now gets to have 3.3k armor and 30k health while I am still taking marauders. Am just crazy ? how does this not utterly ruin the game balance?

It’s widely used by Wannabe-Roamers. I can’t even blame them since balance is in such a poor state. Not every class using these stats is viable, but these Condi-Chronos can be a pain. The only good thing about these builds is that you don’t need to fight them since they can’t sustain their damage from range.

Honestly I don’t even understand why anyone would run such a boring build in a non competitive environment, but that’s just my opinion…

Engie is pretty much the only one that need some precision for effective condi pressure, ele bordercase but its usefull.

Thief, med, necro they can just go full dire with trailblazer thrown in.

Yes its a scourge and IMO the stat combo should be deleted.

Weird becuase marauders and durability runes is still the kitten kitten kitkat kitten cat.

Does backline hammer reve use dire?

I play in the small scale scene, mostly roaming, so I won’t talk about the average zerg composition.

I see less and less condi builds, with one exceptions : condi rangers. I seem to be seeing more and more of them.
Most chronos I see are power chronos, and have been for some times now. The other classes are either not there (can be for valid reasons of course) or power builds, with sometimes an insane amount of stunfest (DD and berserker), and whatever happens, an insane durability too. As Jacion says : marauder+durability.

So maybe it’s more a matter of trend, or servers, or maybe the time you’re playing ?

I’m not gonna’ lie, I’m guilty of running/converting to full trailblazers and/or dire (roam/duel/small scale fights orientated) on things like;

- various burn guard builds
- various condi thief builds (not trapper but I HAVE tried it, never ever touching that cancer again)
- condi mesmer (bores me to bits)
- condi ranger
- condi warrior
- condi P/P engi

Because once people start playing these builds with these stats you can’t go back unless you’re some pro “esports” PvPer who knows their class and their opponent’s class inside-out, and if you do go back or try re-living pre-HoT stats you’re going to have a really bad day.

I know, guilty of adding to the problem.

Believe me, I’ve tried my hardest to play my oldschool fun builds with old stats like rabid/carrion but I simply cannot compete with everyone against me running more potent and cruel stats as the aforementioned trailblazer or viper wombo combo all the while being tankier in general. Powercreep, don’t you love it? Cough.

These stats aren’t the problem; the general power creep is. Nerfing Trailblazer will do very little as at least Mesmer is just as lethal with Viper/Sinister and nearly as survivable if geared correctly. The condi meta is in response to the insane power creep of elites like Berserker and Daredevil with 8 hours of passives and evades.

Speaking as a Mesmer, Condi Chrono is indeed fairly boring and has an extremely low skill floor, but there is nothing between this and the nigh-impossibility of solo roaming on Power Shatter.

The meta isn’t just condi, it’s spam. Whether you can spam your skills brainlessly in zerk gear or condibunker depends on your class, but at the end of the day no one is having fun and Anet is asleep at the switch.

Very much like the old farmers adage that if you want to guarantee a low price for wheat , wheat should be at a high price, if you want to see less dire, have more people use condition builds simply because if a condition build is facing a condition build, the added toughness does little good.

My own observations are that there still mnore power users then condition and on my own power builds I am still able to kill persons in dire as there plenty of damage potential available. Added to that DIRE and TB use is a response to that power and not a response to condition builds.

The conclusions I can make.

Dire and TB use if in fact increasing is in response to Power builds.
Power builds can still generate plenty of damage in order to take out dire and TB users.
As the number of condition users in dire and TB goes UP, the effectivness of dire and TB drops.

If Condition faces condition the person who has some stat in their build other then toughness (healing as example) will have more sustain. If on a power build facing a higher number of condition builds, the proper response is to take more cleanses and vitality.

Dire and TB is not an issue. The presence of a given armor type is a RESPONSE to the presence of a given damage type.If everyone went condition with dire/tb tomorrow then in order to gain an edge when facing one another they will look to dropping toughness for that edge which will help power users.

The very presence of Dire, and that people claim the numbers growing (Not my own observation by the way) is evidence that Condition builds are not meta.

Jacion.6302:

Weird becuase marauders and durability runes is still the kitten kitten kitkat kitten cat.

This ^

I think we have some slight exaggerations going on with the OP.

Condi is very strong on most classes in small scale meta and it doesn’t take three stats for big damage unlike power. With condi there is little trade off between survival and DPS. A person is almost a fool not to go Dire/Trailblazer save for a few exceptions (typically evasion, stealth, passive defense builds built around Commanders, Marauders or similar).

The only thing holding Trailblazer back is the insane cost for ascended or we would see a lot more of it.

Zephyra.4709:

I’m not gonna’ lie, I’m guilty of running/converting to full trailblazers and/or dire (roam/duel/small scale fights orientated) on things like;

- various burn guard builds
- various condi thief builds (not trapper but I HAVE tried it, never ever touching that cancer again)
- condi mesmer (bores me to bits)
- condi ranger
- condi warrior
- condi P/P engi

Because once people start playing these builds with these stats you can’t go back unless you’re some pro “esports” PvPer who knows their class and their opponent’s class inside-out, and if you do go back or try re-living pre-HoT stats you’re going to have a really bad day.

I know, guilty of adding to the problem.

Believe me, I’ve tried my hardest to play my oldschool fun builds with old stats like rabid/carrion but I simply cannot compete with everyone against me running more potent and cruel stats as the aforementioned trailblazer or viper wombo combo all the while being tankier in general. Powercreep, don’t you love it? Cough.

Can you tell me how is it that if YOU are on a condition build, and the enemy on a condition build , how is it his added toughness coming from his armor allows him to outsustain you?

If facing another condition build and able to output the same level of condition damage (which other armor types can do) , his having a higher toughness will not add a lot more in the way of sustain. It will only lessen the amount of raw damage from your power stat and the damage you put out will be greater even as you have the same sustain (via vitality).

Now TB certainly adds durations which gives that person an edge, but as far as dire is concerned a person in any other armor types with the condition/vitality/x combo should prevail when facing dire given added toughness is of no use against conditions.

babazhook.6805:

Can you tell me how is it that if YOU are on a condition build, and the enemy on a condition build , how is it his added toughness coming from his armor allows him to outsustain you?

If facing another condition build and able to output the same level of condition damage (which other armor types can do) , his having a higher toughness will not add a lot more in the way of sustain. It will only lessen the amount of raw damage from your power stat and the damage you put out will be greater even as you have the same sustain (via vitality).

Now TB certainly adds durations which gives that person an edge, but as far as dire is concerned a person in any other armor types with the condition/vitality/x combo should prevail when facing dire given added toughness is of no use against conditions.

What armor types are you talking about here? As far as I’m aware the only option for condi/vit/x other than Dire is Carrion with condi/power/vit.

Toughness scales better than power alone. If it didn’t we’d all be getting insta gibbed by Berserker wearing power builds.

Carrion isn’t going to help you kill anyone in Dire and it leaves you very exposed to power builds.

Edit- Shaman is an option I guess. You are trading damage for sustain though. Lower condition damage but more vit and healing power. Could possibly make it work on some classes against other condi users but still going to suffer against power builds.

babazhook.6805:

Very much like the old farmers adage that if you want to guarantee a low price for wheat , wheat should be at a high price, if you want to see less dire, have more people use condition builds simply because if a condition build is facing a condition build, the added toughness does little good.

My own observations are that there still mnore power users then condition and on my own power builds I am still able to kill persons in dire as there plenty of damage potential available. Added to that DIRE and TB use is a response to that power and not a response to condition builds.

The conclusions I can make.

Dire and TB use if in fact increasing is in response to Power builds.
Power builds can still generate plenty of damage in order to take out dire and TB users.
As the number of condition users in dire and TB goes UP, the effectivness of dire and TB drops.

If Condition faces condition the person who has some stat in their build other then toughness (healing as example) will have more sustain. If on a power build facing a higher number of condition builds, the proper response is to take more cleanses and vitality.

Dire and TB is not an issue. The presence of a given armor type is a RESPONSE to the presence of a given damage type.If everyone went condition with dire/tb tomorrow then in order to gain an edge when facing one another they will look to dropping toughness for that edge which will help power users.

The very presence of Dire, and that people claim the numbers growing (Not my own observation by the way) is evidence that Condition builds are not meta.

This is a fantastic response. It 100% defines why I built my thief full trailblazer. I couldn’t stand getting 3 shot by berserker builds.

Nobody seems to complain about 3500 power signet thieves walking through your health bar like a boss. but they can cry all day if there metabattle raid build gets countered.

ProDecius.2609:

Am just crazy ? how does this not utterly ruin the game balance?

BUT WVW WAS NEVER MEANT TO BE BALANCED!!! *whiny pvp player voice

babazhook.6805:

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Siphon.8405:

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Both of you are comparing oranges and apples. The damage is too high, yes, and some skills are out of control (and always have been) – still: Dire is too much. If conditions weren’t as powerful as they are the stats might be justified, otherwise it’s another cheese way out.

Apologizing at this point: Yeah I’m not in the best mood and am pretty disillusioned when it comes to the state of wvw/this game (it shows, I know – I’m sorry).

Jana.6831:

babazhook.6805:

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Siphon.8405:

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Both of you are comparing oranges and apples. The damage is too high, yes, and some skills are out of control (and always have been) – still: Dire is too much. If conditions weren’t as powerful as they are the stats might be justified, otherwise it’s another cheese way out.

Apologizing at this point: Yeah I’m not in the best mood and am pretty disillusioned when it comes to the state of wvw/this game (it shows, I know – I’m sorry).

Believe whatever you wish, it does not change the fact that dire a response to ever higher power and that dire does nothing to increase the ability to survive against other condition users.

The claims being made that condition builds and dire ones in particular run amok is simply not factual. Most builds I see are still power.

Grundeg.2690:

babazhook.6805:

Can you tell me how is it that if YOU are on a condition build, and the enemy on a condition build , how is it his added toughness coming from his armor allows him to outsustain you?

If facing another condition build and able to output the same level of condition damage (which other armor types can do) , his having a higher toughness will not add a lot more in the way of sustain. It will only lessen the amount of raw damage from your power stat and the damage you put out will be greater even as you have the same sustain (via vitality).

Now TB certainly adds durations which gives that person an edge, but as far as dire is concerned a person in any other armor types with the condition/vitality/x combo should prevail when facing dire given added toughness is of no use against conditions.

What armor types are you talking about here? As far as I’m aware the only option for condi/vit/x other than Dire is Carrion with condi/power/vit.

Toughness scales better than power alone. If it didn’t we’d all be getting insta gibbed by Berserker wearing power builds.

Carrion isn’t going to help you kill anyone in Dire and it leaves you very exposed to power builds.

Edit- Shaman is an option I guess. You are trading damage for sustain though. Lower condition damage but more vit and healing power. Could possibly make it work on some classes against other condi users but still going to suffer against power builds.

If I took a Shamans d/d DB condition build and fought a Dire or TB d/d DB condition build (Thief) the shamans would win hands down in spite of sacrificng a bit of condition damage simply because the healing would more then make up for the extra condtion damage output of pure dire.

The same is true of a Condition warrior facing a Condition warrior, one in Dire and one in Shamans. The healing of the latter would more then make up for the sacrifice in the Condtion damage stat ( I can get 7500 in a heal just breaking a stun in such a warrior).

The DIRE user would generally fare better against power builds. That dire (or TB) is used to the extent it is as you yourselkittennowledged is to deal with POWER users which in my opinion shows the impact Power damage has .

As you yourself stated, zerker would destroy someone with no toughness.

From this it hard to conclude Dire a problem. It is a response to power creep and a means of surviving attacks of over 10k per. If condtions were the real culprit here and people were picking an armor to deal with the same, dire would not be a good choice.

babazhook.6805:

If I took a Shamans d/d DB condition build and fought a Dire or TB d/d DB condition build (Thief) the shamans would win hands down in spite of sacrificng a wee bit of condition damage simply because the healing would more then make up for the extra condtion damage output of pure dire.

The same is true of a Condition warrior facing a Condition warrior, one in Dire and one in Shamans. The healing of the latter would more then make up for the sacrifice in the Condtion damage stat ( I can get 7500 in a heal just breaking a stun in such a warrior).

The DIRE user would generally fare better against power builds. That dire (or TB) is used to the extent it is as you yourselkittennowledged is to deal with POWER users which in my opinion shows the impact Power damage has .

As you yourself stated, zerker would destroy someone with no toughness.

From this it hard to conclude Dire a problem. It is a response to power creep and a means of surviving attacks of over 10k per. If condtions were the real culprit here and people were picking an armor to deal with the same, dire would not be a good choice.

Whether or not full Shaman will destroy a mirror in full Dire is going to depend on how well the useful heals on that particular class scale with healing power as well as the availability of heals on the build. Shaman isn’t going to help a necro very much as an example. WvW is very seldom about fighting your mirror build in a 1v1 situation.

It’s not a matter of fighting either condis or power. It is about fighting both. Often at the same time. Shaman gives you great defense against condis and bad defense against power while losing a little damage. Dire does more damage, has decent defense against condis and great defense against power.

That last line is the biggest issue alot of people have with Dire/TB. High damage output with high defense against both types of damage. That’s something that you will have difficulty finding in a power set.

People aren’t going to run exclusively condi builds no matter how optimal they are. You are going to have your subset of people that either live for seeing the big numbers or people that don’t like condi play style on their class. You are always going to have to defend against power damage in WvW. Dire/TB give the best mix of offense and defense the game currently allows.

Grundeg.2690:

babazhook.6805:

If I took a Shamans d/d DB condition build and fought a Dire or TB d/d DB condition build (Thief) the shamans would win hands down in spite of sacrificng a wee bit of condition damage simply because the healing would more then make up for the extra condtion damage output of pure dire.

The same is true of a Condition warrior facing a Condition warrior, one in Dire and one in Shamans. The healing of the latter would more then make up for the sacrifice in the Condtion damage stat ( I can get 7500 in a heal just breaking a stun in such a warrior).

The DIRE user would generally fare better against power builds. That dire (or TB) is used to the extent it is as you yourselkittennowledged is to deal with POWER users which in my opinion shows the impact Power damage has .

As you yourself stated, zerker would destroy someone with no toughness.

From this it hard to conclude Dire a problem. It is a response to power creep and a means of surviving attacks of over 10k per. If condtions were the real culprit here and people were picking an armor to deal with the same, dire would not be a good choice.

Whether or not full Shaman will destroy a mirror in full Dire is going to depend on how well the useful heals on that particular class scale with healing power as well as the availability of heals on the build. Shaman isn’t going to help a necro very much as an example. WvW is very seldom about fighting your mirror build in a 1v1 situation.

It’s not a matter of fighting either condis or power. It is about fighting both. Often at the same time. Shaman gives you great defense against condis and bad defense against power while losing a little damage. Dire does more damage, has decent defense against condis and great defense against power.

That last line is the biggest issue alot of people have with Dire/TB. High damage output with high defense against both types of damage. That’s something that you will have difficulty finding in a power set.

People aren’t going to run exclusively condi builds no matter how optimal they are. You are going to have your subset of people that either live for seeing the big numbers or people that don’t like condi play style on their class. You are always going to have to defend against power damage in WvW. Dire/TB give the best mix of offense and defense the game currently allows.

We will agree to disagree. I do not run all zerker on any of my power builds WvW and have no real issues dealing with power or condition builds running dire.

I certainly get beat by better players, but that because they better players and not because they wear dire and there no way the damage output of someone in dire comes close to my power build. Conditions are still DOT meaning they need that time and if they were in lesser armor against a power build they would never get that time.

babazhook.6805:

From this it hard to conclude Dire a problem.

What conclusion? You just made up an anecdote and somehow use that to verify your belief.

If you can post a video with the best condi players dueling on different classes while trading shamans/dire/tb and shamans win every time, sure you can conclude something and I will stand corrected.

In the meantime, we’ll just keep fighting in WvW where a vast amount of condi players goes for max condi dmg while being tanky as kitten. Because they can. And power cant (Warrior excepted because they are carried by their class, not the gear).

Dawdler.8521:

babazhook.6805:

From this it hard to conclude Dire a problem.

What conclusion? You just made up an anecdote and somehow use that to verify your belief.

If you can post a video with the best condi players dueling on different classes while trading shamans/dire/tb and shamans win every time, sure you can conclude something and I will stand corrected.

In the meantime, we’ll just keep fighting in WvW where a vast amount of condi players goes for max condi dmg while being tanky as kitten. Because they can. And power cant (Warrior excepted because they are carried by their class, not the gear).

First you do not know what an anecdote is. I based my conclusions on hundreds if not thousands of hours of gameplay and personal experience. This is not defined as an anecdote anymore then a mechanic trying to describe the likely cause of a noise in an engine is an anecdote,

As to videos. I am not obligated to prove anything to you. I know from my own experience what happens in either build as I have tried both. I have been on a Shamans build facing dire with a thief and on a warriors settler build facing dire warriors and know my own win rate on either. I have also played those same builds in dire and have established that against condition builds shamans outperforms when you spec properly. That you frame your request for the same by requiring said videos show the best against the best (knowing that such not possible) amply demonstrates your mind already made up.

I play five different thieves. One specced for conditions and 4 specced for power. I play each of those thieves regularly and some are specced for low condtion cleanse some for high and I know exactly how each one stacks up against a dire condition build and each has a different win rate against the same. I have established for myself that changing your build can address Dire condition builds.

I know for a fact I can face the exact same dire build that just bested me while I was using one of my power builds and defeat it with another of my power builds and have often done that very thing in game.

Again you can chose to believe whatever it is you wish. I can only relate my own experience. Use whatever build you wish. I am not the one complaining about dire builds and an inability to deal with them.

I think it is a good thing that conditions are now viable in wvw in roaming and sometimes zerg-context. It gives more variability after HoT and the rise of Metabattle reduced build-diversity by a lot. I think every class has now several similarly good options to play the game and that is great! Tempests are still good as frontline healers or backline siege-clearers in zergs btw.
I agree that it would be nice if some standard-roaming builds would be toned down a little, but that may just me playing some classes more than others. As a necro for example I will die against a lockdown druid that immob/stuns/dazes while applying conditions due to lack of fast stability-options in a very boring way, other classes die because their condi removal isn’t as good.
But it’s a lot better to deal with since the last patch that buffed our condi-clear options/reduced cooldown, but you have to run them in your builds. I think at the end of the day some classes are just better against specific classes, while being vulnerable against other classes, that’s fine for me.

If everybody use dire like you say why don’t you use some rampager viper combo or something and destroy them? Power dmg > vitality.

It’s utterly astonishing how people can defend these stats, by ignoring me your basically inferring you do indeed believe a fair fight a fair fight between a marauder build and a carrion build, is still fair if the carrion build uses trailblazer. The trolling these players are willing to do knows no bounds, it’s unbelievable. . . .

I would say marauder versus carrion isn’t a fair fight: Marauder should win with equal skill, as it has more skillpoints. Marauder versus trailblazer should be a fair fight with equal skill, but it depends on the class you are playing as well, as some classes have advantages and disadvantages against other classes. Same as in pvp you have to avoid fighting some classes if you struggle with them.
What exactly are you saying? That you haven’t enough condi-clear on your guard against condi-builds? Then how about adding more condition clear, don’t know if there is a class with more condition clear options than guardians.

If they yanked trail and dire I wouldn’t get a fun fight from a lite armor class ever. I’d eat them all. No. I don’t want an instant I win button. I want fun fights. Leave it alone and learn to play your class better like the rest of us had to.

the stats didn’t dictate the meta, the meta dictated that these stats are good. Dire has been around for a LONG time, and wasn’t an issue until HoT. I’ve posted why HoT brought on this meta a lot, and don’t really want to rehash the entire thing, but basically:

HoT encouraged WvW zergs to ditch warriors for revs (a lot of reasons). Loss of Warriors led to less mobile, less bursty zergs. Frontline spec revs can deal a lot of damage, but they’re kittening slow as hell compared to the old JI Guards + warrior leaping followups.

The comps changed to be more mitigation focused, less power, and less mobility. It’s too easy to play Condition specs now, and the increase in enemy mitigation stacking means power is balls compared to conditions.

The “solution” to the condition meta isn’t just buffing mitigation or nerfing conditions, because you aren’t addressing the largest issue is that Power is pretty garbage compared to pre-HoT in small group vs large group sizes.

If ANET listened to complaints commonly voiced about conditions, we wouldn’t be in the fun Pre-HoT days, but instead lead into an even deeper mitigation hellscape. I’d rather die to conditions in seconds if the alternative is mitigation stacking borefests.

Loading.4503:

I was thinking, if there was a stat that was a dires version for power, I would guess maybe toughness vit ferocity, and people used runes and traits to make up for the precision, would there be topics everywhere about people being tanking and still doing all this high dmg?

Lol no. Ferocity is only worthwhile with high power. It’s a scalar modifier, so if your damage is low, it still remains low.

The equivalent to Dire and TB would be Main stat power (non-diminished a la Berserker and Valkyrie gear) with secondary stat Ferocity, Toughness and Vitality (non-diminished a la Valkyrie + Soldier) with diminished Precision as the tertiary scalar like stat like TB’s expertise.

Of course, this would be a massive increase in raw stats notably defensive ones to maintain massive pressure, which is why Dire and TB are regarded as being so overpowered.

Dire has been around forever, but it has always been overpowered. People have been running it and complaining about it in small-scale since its release, because it was just blatantly busted. It wasn’t complained about as much only because the blobs didn’t run it since there wasn’t enough condition pressure when running old GWEN to really have an impact. Buffed condition pressure and buffed power damage negation have forced condi into every part of WvW, however, so now everyone is realizing just how dumb the sets actually are.

This would be semi-balanced if there were traits/consumables that converted x% of Precision to Ferocity only and it was balanced around it being a “extra damage bonus” stat. The problem is there is condition duration which is greater than all other damage type modifiers.

Imagine a food that added 20% power-related damage. For WvW, we have standard food and crystals (and there are worse offenders).

To me, it is not about dire/trailblazer (in a vacuum) that is OP. However, it is that all these condition modifiers scale mathematically significantly better than anything direct damage has. That is what breaks the balance for WvW and not for PvP.

Let’s remove consumables in WvW first (or at least limit the ones that are available).

“Marauder versus trailblazer should be a fair fight with equal skill, " You are a liar and a deceitful person. 100 percent chance of trolling here. This is just insulting dude. . . .

Artaz.3819:

This would be semi-balanced if there were traits/consumables that converted x% of Precision to Ferocity only and it was balanced around it being a “extra damage bonus” stat. The problem is there is condition duration which is greater than all other damage type modifiers.

Imagine a food that added 20% power-related damage. For WvW, we have standard food and crystals (and there are worse offenders).

To me, it is not about dire/trailblazer (in a vacuum) that is OP. However, it is that all these condition modifiers scale mathematically significantly better than anything direct damage has. That is what breaks the balance for WvW and not for PvP.

Let’s remove consumables in WvW first (or at least limit the ones that are available).

+ 20% condi duration isn’t compareable to +20% direct dmg. 1. Condi duration is additive and capped at +100%. Direct dmg modifiers are multiplicative and not capped. 2. Condi duration increases only dmg over time, but doesn’t offer any burst. Direct dmg modifier doesn’t only increase overall dmg but also burst. 3. Condi duration can be completely nullified by cleanses. Dmg modifier will always provide increased dmg.

It’s not gear nor food alone that makes things op. It is always certain traits/skills/runes/other specific stuff and the combination of those. Or with other words, it depends on specific builds. And those have to be looked at.

ProDecius.2609:

anet deleted elementalist from the game because it doesn’t have a good way to use traiblazer stats and revs are now the meta frontline healer. Just compare meteor shower to epidemic and cry after realizing just to what extent anet hates elementalist. Not even wvw, staff ele isn’t viable in ANY GAME MODE currently in gw2.

Nonsense.

Let’s look at ele over the course of this game, in PvE is has been at “worst” good, and for most of the game meta (and at times so broken OP people wanted multiple eles), in PvP except for several months before celestial and a brief period earlier inthe game (that was more failing to L2P than anything else) they have been good/meta/broken OP (with celestial), and in WvW they have been meta in large scale most of the game.

Now compare that to necros in PvE who were bottom of the barrel for most of the game, engies/rangers/thieves/mesmers in large scale WvW who at best have been wanted for a niche spot, at worst are regarded as useless for years at a time, and PvP where ranger between spirit ranger and HoT was sub-par all that time.

Really complaining about how eles have fared in this game just shows a lack of knowledge and objectivity.

As for balance in WvW it has always been a joke, where half the classes are sub-par, but now ele is marginally effected it is suddenly an issue, pathetic, same thing with “everyone” running condi, as if it were balanced when no one ran condi.

Kamara.4187:

If they yanked trail and dire I wouldn’t get a fun fight from a lite armor class ever. I’d eat them all. No. I don’t want an instant I win button. I want fun fights. Leave it alone and learn to play your class better like the rest of us had to.

One hundred percent correct. A few nights back I used a close to 8k shadowshot and a 10k HS right after to instant down a fellow thief I got the drop on. Yes he was glass and would likely have managed like damage against me but the point is this.

If I was facing a condition user “Forced” into wearing armor other than DIRE or the like because the people here can not seem to handle it, that sort of damage would down him in seconds and he would never have time to get all of those conditions on.

Most condition builds tend to have one Condi Bomb which is followed by the slow and steady reapplication of conditions from other skills traits to gradually overhwhelm an enemy.

They would never have the luxury of that time without being tanky and no, they can not output the same sort of damage in the same amount of time like a power user can.
Were such a bad idea to happen as suggested in removing dire/tb, I could drop a whole lot of condition cleanses as KILLING the enemy quickly would preclude my needing them.

Artaz.3819:

This would be semi-balanced if there were traits/consumables that converted x% of Precision to Ferocity only and it was balanced around it being a “extra damage bonus” stat. The problem is there is condition duration which is greater than all other damage type modifiers.

Imagine a food that added 20% power-related damage. For WvW, we have standard food and crystals (and there are worse offenders).

To me, it is not about dire/trailblazer (in a vacuum) that is OP. However, it is that all these condition modifiers scale mathematically significantly better than anything direct damage has. That is what breaks the balance for WvW and not for PvP.

Let’s remove consumables in WvW first (or at least limit the ones that are available).

I can trait for a better then doubling my thief damage from my weapons BEFORE I even get a crit using all of the bonuses to damages I can get out of the Traits along with Consumables.

When someone takes +20 condition duration food , its added damage is predicated on the condition added not being cleansed before the full duration of the condtion. When I take Seaweeed salad along with sigil of night that 21 percent boost happens at each and every attack

@ProDecius.2609 people can have a different opinion than you for different reasons than trolling. You have several options against condi builds. Try running more condi clear, bursting your opponents with powerdamage, cc them in the right moments, some classes like necros can even specialize in giving the conditions back to the opponent (the last mesmer that got all his confusion back twice wasn’t too happy).

I agree. Condition duration is only a problem, if it cannot be cleansed, that’s why it is so dangerous on classes, that can cc-lock you. So decreasing the time on condi cleanses was actually a good way to counter the condition duration problem. Condition duration isn’t really balanced between the condis though, because the short conditions like burning are far more likely to apply all their damage before they can get cleared than ones that are 10-20 seconds. I hope they adapted the damage of burning to compensate for that fact.
But yea, I think it is GOOD that there isn’t one way that is always better in WvW now. Why are people complaining about that, it is far less boring.

Condi builds are really not as strong as people make it out to be, it depends a lot on the player behind it as well as the player facing it. I’ve beaten plenty of condi necros, mesmers and thieves on a cavs/knights ranger

I play condi and power fairly evenly at the moment, depending on the server we’re playing and the general comp of their roamers. For instance: if I run into lots of roaming DH trappers, I’m likely to play condi as unblockable traps and poison fields confers an advantage in that matchup. Sure, I can use acro staff, but there’s an easier option so why not take it? Your opponent certainly will.

You also have to take your playstyle into account: I play much better defensively than offensively, that is to say I’m assuming my opponent is being aggressive and chasing down the kill. That mindset favours condi in outnumbered fights, as people are more likely to be lazy with defensive skills and cleanses as they think numbers confer an advantage.

Bottom line, you can’t assume one build is the best in all situations, you have to adapt to the situation. If there’s a rise in condi builds in general, it’s probably in response to the meta builds, not in spite of them.

Junkpile.7439:

If everybody use dire like you say why don’t you use some rampager viper combo or something and destroy them? Power dmg > vitality.

I want to quickly comment on your response here. I was out in WvW one late night as D/D condi thief and I do believe I ran into a full Viper warrior.

This guy was absolutely intense. He couldn’t kill me but I couldn’t kill him either because he hit like a train and left a stack of conditions on me that was all I could do to stay alive.

babazhook.6805:

Kamara.4187:

If they yanked trail and dire I wouldn’t get a fun fight from a lite armor class ever. I’d eat them all. No. I don’t want an instant I win button. I want fun fights. Leave it alone and learn to play your class better like the rest of us had to.

One hundred percent correct. A few nights back I used a close to 8k shadowshot and a 10k HS right after to instant down a fellow thief I got the drop on. Yes he was glass and would likely have managed like damage against me but the point is this.

If I was facing a condition user “Forced” into wearing armor other than DIRE or the like because the people here can not seem to handle it, that sort of damage would down him in seconds and he would never have time to get all of those conditions on.

Most condition builds tend to have one Condi Bomb which is followed by the slow and steady reapplication of conditions from other skills traits to gradually overhwhelm an enemy.

They would never have the luxury of that time without being tanky and no, they can not output the same sort of damage in the same amount of time like a power user can.
Were such a bad idea to happen as suggested in removing dire/tb, I could drop a whole lot of condition cleanses as KILLING the enemy quickly would preclude my needing them.

You make it sound like every other condi option is viper or sinister, though. Truth is that it isn’t. Sinister was the first set of condi gear to come out with all-offensive stats. There are plenty of options which pack a good mix of toughness/vit and another stat.

Compare Dire to Soldier and it’s no contest which is better. Compare Dire and TB to Berserker and Marauder and the condi options in most builds/most professions are still mathematically better when comparing damage dealt vs damage taken at any given time, which is ultimately what PvP environments are about. Boon-bunker has been prominent for so long for this reason.

Shadow Shot’s not really a good example for basis of comparison, either; it is and has been mathematically too strong of an ability in its damage coefficient per initiative cost for years.

The problem with condi builds is the breadth of condition availability on many builds and how easy it is to apply them, particularly since HoT. I don’t think anyone is complaining so much that conditions deal too much damage, but rather that you can take a thief or guard or mesmer and run around with an EHP of over 30k (or more) while pumping 8k-10k+ ticks per second on a burst condition build regardless of the opponent’s armor, have lots of intermittent damage mitigation tools, and how condition pressure negates post-engage or reactive defenses such as blocks and re-positions. It’s the sheer lack of tradeoff for many builds to have a lot of offensive pressure and massive defensive numbers that make it so potent and in many cases, frustrating to play.

Balance isn’t based on math only. Giving up range, mobility, defensive skills and/or traits is a huge trade-off, that many classes have to make to achieve a somewhat decent condi output, and that’s why many classes are still better going power. And what do boon spam bunker have to do with dire/tb? Most of those builds are power …

And i still want to see all those op condi bursts with instant 10k ticks that people keep talking about, because i never experienced it in WvW.

And in order to get matching power damage output, one needs to spec into power as well.

And it’s very much mathematical. Most professions in WvW in all environments are better off playing conditions. It isn’t the case in PvP because a mix of damage is necessary and is best pushed towards +1 builds designed to help burst down other players in a gank environment, and some builds can still push heavy power damage numbers depending on the matchup. However, the best builds are always budgeting offensive vs defensive pressure. This is just how it is, and how it has been since just a few months after release. Signet thief isn’t considered a good build despite being the best quick burst in the game, just because it’s so vulnerable to pretty much everything. I don’t think a full-berserker-gear build aside from backline has been in the meta in WvW for years. Even now, most of the ZvZ/backline builds play conditions because they still just deal more damage.

Otherwise the skill-per-skill value and cooldown cycles are near-identical.

Burn guard and venom thief can easily pull of 8-10k+ tick engages. Reaper stacks an instant 40 bleeding and 12 poison on foes with two skills. There are some aggressive condi mesmers which can quickly pop out over 20 stacks of confusion and 12 torment on engage. There are a number of streamers that have shown these builds and play them. I believe one of the top 50 thieves in NA plays a D/D condi non-death-blossom-spam venom build which a guildmember of mine runs now, which applies absolutely huge condition pressure right off the bat.

There are only 2 classes that are better off going condi in pretty much all situations (necro, mesmer) and 2 classes that are debateable (thief, guard). Which leaves 5 out of 9 classes that are usually better with power builds.

Ganking, chasing, escaping potential is as important in WvW as it is in PvP. Maybe even more. Less need to defend small points, so less reasons for pure bunkers …

And you are talking as if there is nothing but full zerk or condi. Yes, full zerk isn’t meta, but guess what, you don’t need full zerk for power builds. Marauder and even tankier power builds are a thing.

And if you consider RS5 + 4 instant, then we have a different definition of what instant means, i guess …

For those who are complaining that Dire/Trailblazer is OP and that Dire would beat Marauder….etc…there is more to a build than stats. Dire isn’t OP and neither is trailblazer. Ive played many DPS and Condi builds (currently have 2 condi and 7 DPS builds for both PvP and WvW) and those builds that use full Marauder will usually out perform TB/Dire builds. Now before you keyboard warriors say anything, I stated "usually* as in more often than not. When I make my DPS builds, I always trait for some condi cleanses and gasp Learn when to pop them so I don’t end up using them early and screwing myself. Are condi’s OP…No…are they strong…Yes but so is Marauders. This is literally “and I cannot stress this enough as I do stress this often” an issue with people not knowing how to Adapt and learning how to fight them properly.

Im no “pro league” champ or anything, however as an avid thoerycrafter who has used/thoeerycrafted some of the “meta” builds before they were meta, I tend to observe when I do my build testing, adapting to whats weak about the build in play and adapt and make changes that keep the core of the build but help make up for the weakness.

The best thing I did when learning to fight something (and I can get ppl to confirm this) is to find a guildie/friend to play a class/build that is strong against yours and spar/practice. Thanks to this, I have had more success fighting epi/plague reapers while on my condi builds. This is literally a “git gud” thread no matter how you look at it, and one where people need to practice/spar vs builds with someone they know.

/rant

This is simply madness, My glass staff ele does a small percentile of the damage that a condi necro with 3.3 k armor and 60 k life with shroud can do. There is simply no arguing that this is fair.

I have no idea what your motivations for coming on the forums and lying about the balance is, I am very confused how anyone could come to the conclusion that trailblazer/dire isn’t immensely hurting the quality of the game without being an outright troll. As I said it’s maddening how your actively going out of your way to diminish the quality of this game by trying to give the devs a false impression of whats actually going on.

It’s hard to beat a wander’s/carrion necro 1vs1 in spvp atm on a mara build, the lies about being able to kill trailblazer classes the the same mara builds in wvw need to stop, that’s impossible. I am a gold 2 in spvp I’m no expert either, but these imbalances are so obvious and so overwhelming to the influence of the current wvw it’s staggering. Deceivers on the forums would have you believe no zerg even runs condi necro as if it’s under powered -_-. It’s simply madness please stop actively trying to ruin gw2.