Guild Wars 2

DeceiverX.8361:

Loading.4503:

I was thinking, if there was a stat that was a dires version for power, I would guess maybe toughness vit ferocity, and people used runes and traits to make up for the precision, would there be topics everywhere about people being tanking and still doing all this high dmg?

Lol no. Ferocity is only worthwhile with high power. It’s a scalar modifier, so if your damage is low, it still remains low.

The equivalent to Dire and TB would be Main stat power (non-diminished a la Berserker and Valkyrie gear) with secondary stat Ferocity, Toughness and Vitality (non-diminished a la Valkyrie + Soldier) with diminished Precision as the tertiary scalar like stat like TB’s expertise.

Of course, this would be a massive increase in raw stats notably defensive ones to maintain massive pressure, which is why Dire and TB are regarded as being so overpowered.

Dire has been around forever, but it has always been overpowered. People have been running it and complaining about it in small-scale since its release, because it was just blatantly busted. It wasn’t complained about as much only because the blobs didn’t run it since there wasn’t enough condition pressure when running old GWEN to really have an impact. Buffed condition pressure and buffed power damage negation have forced condi into every part of WvW, however, so now everyone is realizing just how dumb the sets actually are.

-_- just realized I had a brain fart moment and didn’t think about power when I posted that

DeceiverX.8361:

And in order to get matching power damage output, one needs to spec into power as well.

And it’s very much mathematical. Most professions in WvW in all environments are better off playing conditions. It isn’t the case in PvP because a mix of damage is necessary and is best pushed towards +1 builds designed to help burst down other players in a gank environment, and some builds can still push heavy power damage numbers depending on the matchup. However, the best builds are always budgeting offensive vs defensive pressure. This is just how it is, and how it has been since just a few months after release. Signet thief isn’t considered a good build despite being the best quick burst in the game, just because it’s so vulnerable to pretty much everything. I don’t think a full-berserker-gear build aside from backline has been in the meta in WvW for years. Even now, most of the ZvZ/backline builds play conditions because they still just deal more damage.

Otherwise the skill-per-skill value and cooldown cycles are near-identical.

Burn guard and venom thief can easily pull of 8-10k+ tick engages. Reaper stacks an instant 40 bleeding and 12 poison on foes with two skills. There are some aggressive condi mesmers which can quickly pop out over 20 stacks of confusion and 12 torment on engage. There are a number of streamers that have shown these builds and play them. I believe one of the top 50 thieves in NA plays a D/D condi non-death-blossom-spam venom build which a guildmember of mine runs now, which applies absolutely huge condition pressure right off the bat.

All of this… just all of it.

hell yeah nerf the condi without addressing physical mitigation

onward toward the 3.5k armor future boys

Pinko.2076:

hell yeah nerf the condi without addressing physical mitigation

onward toward the 3.5k armor future boys

This has generally not been complained about though so I fail to see the threat… Quite the opposite, people usually want more hp across the board given the HoT power creep.

Nate.3927:

Condi builds are really not as strong as people make it out to be, it depends a lot on the player behind it as well as the player facing it. I’ve beaten plenty of condi necros, mesmers and thieves on a cavs/knights ranger

I agree what is said above

I am running full dires on Reaper so read my other post below.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Nerf-or-remove-the-condi/first#post6536358

pointaction.4639:

Nate.3927:

Condi builds are really not as strong as people make it out to be, it depends a lot on the player behind it as well as the player facing it. I’ve beaten plenty of condi necros, mesmers and thieves on a cavs/knights ranger

I agree what is said above

I am running full dires on Reaper so read my other post below.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Nerf-or-remove-the-condi/first#post6536358

Casually winning most 1vs5s because of broken stats that “are not overpowered” xD lol pretty good trolling. This is the kind of post I would just hide from and be embarrassed by if I was an anet dev.

Yes it’s probably easy win 1 vs 5 if enemies don’t know how to dodge or remove conditions.

Junkpile.7439:

Yes it’s probably easy win 1 vs 5 if enemies don’t know how to dodge or remove conditions.

which you cant keep up because the amount of conditions some classes pump up is much higher than the 30 seconds cd cleanse the player has access to.

Things like this make the wvw kitten crap.

Junkpile.7439:

Yes it’s probably easy win 1 vs 5 if enemies don’t know how to dodge or remove conditions.

The best defense against Condi is to let them burst you into downed state. Then you get full Condi purge and tripple health to better facetank any newly applied Condi. Immunity to almost all cc and the really nifty skillbar goes a long way.

anduriell.6280:

Junkpile.7439:

Yes it’s probably easy win 1 vs 5 if enemies don’t know how to dodge or remove conditions.

which you cant keep up because the amount of conditions some classes pump up is much higher than the 30 seconds cd cleanse the player has access to.

Things like this make the wvw kitten crap.

Can you detail which classes only have access to cleanses every 30 seconds?

babazhook.6805:

anduriell.6280:

Junkpile.7439:

Yes it’s probably easy win 1 vs 5 if enemies don’t know how to dodge or remove conditions.

which you cant keep up because the amount of conditions some classes pump up is much higher than the 30 seconds cd cleanse the player has access to.

Things like this make the wvw kitten crap.

Can you detail which classes only have access to cleanses every 30 seconds?

Be nice, it’s very hard to play a bunker druid.

babazhook.6805:

anduriell.6280:

Junkpile.7439:

Yes it’s probably easy win 1 vs 5 if enemies don’t know how to dodge or remove conditions.

which you cant keep up because the amount of conditions some classes pump up is much higher than the 30 seconds cd cleanse the player has access to.

Things like this make the wvw kitten crap.

Can you detail which classes only have access to cleanses every 30 seconds?

Does it really matter? My tempest cleanse 2 condis every shout (using 5 shouts) plus 1 condi every second and regen like 2000+ hp/s when cycling heals.

I still cannot cleanse all the condis from a single reaper that knows how to push condis..

A good reaper knows how to hide those 15-20+ stacks of bleeding behind half a dozen other condis and there are few that can cleanse that much that fast. Even if you do manage it for the moment… well you’re gonna have about the same stacks on you within 5 seconds again. GG reaper.

Dawdler.8521:

babazhook.6805:

anduriell.6280:

Junkpile.7439:

Yes it’s probably easy win 1 vs 5 if enemies don’t know how to dodge or remove conditions.

which you cant keep up because the amount of conditions some classes pump up is much higher than the 30 seconds cd cleanse the player has access to.

Things like this make the wvw kitten crap.

Can you detail which classes only have access to cleanses every 30 seconds?

Does it really matter? My tempest cleanse 2 condis every shout (using 5 shouts) plus 1 condi every second and regen like 2000+ hp/s when cycling heals.

I still cannot cleanse all the condis from a single reaper that knows how to push condis..

A good reaper knows how to hide those 15-20+ stacks of bleeding behind half a dozen other condis and there are few that can cleanse that much that fast. Even if you do manage it for the moment… well you’re gonna have about the same stacks on you within 5 seconds again. GG reaper.

Of course it matters. If a person can only condition cleanse once every thirty seconds than it his build that the problem.

As to being able to cleanse all conditions from a Reaper , you should not be able to. If you could cleanse every condition then a condition build would be useless.

Power builds facing power builds should not expect to outheal all damage done to them so I do no see why a person facing a Condition build expects as much. The goal is to minimize the damge you take as you maximize the damage you apply before your own life runs out.

Now I do not play Tempest a lot albeit I have two of them , but when facing them I do not see them as lacking in the condition cleanse department. I will grant you that reaper might be overtuned at the moment , but that not what this thread about and it is a bit too early to make that judgement in my opinion.

After the most recent patch and changes to chill , I was killed rather quickly by these new builds. I have to see what I can do to adapt before I make the call that they are too much.

babazhook.6805:

As to being able to cleanse all conditions from a Reaper , you should not be able to. If you could cleanse every condition then a condition build would be useless.

Power builds facing power builds should not expect to outheal all damage done to them so I do no see why a person facing a Condition build expects as much. The goal is to minimize the damge you take as you maximize the damage you apply before your own life runs out..

people like you keep comparing power damage to condition one and that’s a completely and absurd fallacy. Power builds can’t do damage (well 99% of it) when there is no LoS while those 5k bleeding ticks are still there.

Condition in this game is not meant to be main damage or shouldn’t. The spam some classes can do is just kittened and for as many cleanses you may have it is impossible to keep up with the cleanses, having 1 or 5.

having a massive amount of condition damage per tick plus a massive amount of health and armor it is absurd and a faulty design that upset most playerbase except of course the people that uses only dire burn guardian, ghost theef or the seasonal cheese broken one shot build (right justine)?

And that’s why EU seems deserted even in pve on sunday.

I just want to note that yesterday I took my DPS teef and downed a condi reaper. Had I played a bit more defensively I may have got the pin (reaper down auto op lol)

There was even a condi engi a few nights ago I was farming on the same daredevil at their SEC

Now im not the best at teef as I am still learning but I imagine that if me being as condi squishy as I am can do it, its not OP.

anduriell.6280:

babazhook.6805:

As to being able to cleanse all conditions from a Reaper , you should not be able to. If you could cleanse every condition then a condition build would be useless.

Power builds facing power builds should not expect to outheal all damage done to them so I do no see why a person facing a Condition build expects as much. The goal is to minimize the damge you take as you maximize the damage you apply before your own life runs out..

people like you keep comparing power damage to condition one and that’s a completely and absurd fallacy. Power builds can’t do damage (well 99% of it) when there is no LoS while those 5k bleeding ticks are still there.

Condition in this game is not meant to be main damage or shouldn’t. The spam some classes can do is just kittened and for as many cleanses you may have it is impossible to keep up with the cleanses, having 1 or 5.

having a massive amount of condition damage per tick plus a massive amount of health and armor it is absurd and a faulty design that upset most playerbase except of course the people that uses only dire burn guardian, ghost theef or the seasonal cheese broken one shot build (right justine)?

And that’s why EU seems deserted even in pve on sunday.

Condition damage does not magically appear. At virtually every instance that the LOS allowed those conditions to be applied, a power build could apply damage. Where the condition build has to wait for the full durations for that full damge to apply , the power build has already applied his.

Where the remainder of that damage that conditions ticking can apply can be greatly mitigated via a cleanse, that power builds damage all came in one shot making a cleanse useless against it.

Condition damage IS meant to do damage. That is why it is there. When I rolled up my first character on launch I could do damage with conditions. Please stop making up rules .

babazhook.6805:

anduriell.6280:

babazhook.6805:

As to being able to cleanse all conditions from a Reaper , you should not be able to. If you could cleanse every condition then a condition build would be useless.

Power builds facing power builds should not expect to outheal all damage done to them so I do no see why a person facing a Condition build expects as much. The goal is to minimize the damge you take as you maximize the damage you apply before your own life runs out..

people like you keep comparing power damage to condition one and that’s a completely and absurd fallacy. Power builds can’t do damage (well 99% of it) when there is no LoS while those 5k bleeding ticks are still there.

Condition in this game is not meant to be main damage or shouldn’t. The spam some classes can do is just kittened and for as many cleanses you may have it is impossible to keep up with the cleanses, having 1 or 5.

having a massive amount of condition damage per tick plus a massive amount of health and armor it is absurd and a faulty design that upset most playerbase except of course the people that uses only dire burn guardian, ghost theef or the seasonal cheese broken one shot build (right justine)?

And that’s why EU seems deserted even in pve on sunday.

Condition damage does not magically appear. At virtually every instance that the LOS allowed those conditions to be applied, a power build could apply damage. Where the condition build has to wait for the full durations for that full damge to apply , the power build has already applied his.

Where the remainder of that damage that conditions ticking can apply can be greatly mitigated via a cleanse, that power builds damage all came in one shot making a cleanse useless against it.

Condition damage IS meant to do damage. That is why it is there. When I rolled up my first character on launch I could do damage with conditions. Please stop making up rules .

Condi was meant to do utility dmg not pure dmg. That it can do as much dmg as power is a problem and most power dmg builds are not one shot builds because its to easy to build super tankly with high utility condi dmg.

lol

What is “utility damage”? Is that even a thing?

Jski.6180:

babazhook.6805:

anduriell.6280:

babazhook.6805:

As to being able to cleanse all conditions from a Reaper , you should not be able to. If you could cleanse every condition then a condition build would be useless.

Power builds facing power builds should not expect to outheal all damage done to them so I do no see why a person facing a Condition build expects as much. The goal is to minimize the damge you take as you maximize the damage you apply before your own life runs out..

people like you keep comparing power damage to condition one and that’s a completely and absurd fallacy. Power builds can’t do damage (well 99% of it) when there is no LoS while those 5k bleeding ticks are still there.

Condition in this game is not meant to be main damage or shouldn’t. The spam some classes can do is just kittened and for as many cleanses you may have it is impossible to keep up with the cleanses, having 1 or 5.

having a massive amount of condition damage per tick plus a massive amount of health and armor it is absurd and a faulty design that upset most playerbase except of course the people that uses only dire burn guardian, ghost theef or the seasonal cheese broken one shot build (right justine)?

And that’s why EU seems deserted even in pve on sunday.

Condition damage does not magically appear. At virtually every instance that the LOS allowed those conditions to be applied, a power build could apply damage. Where the condition build has to wait for the full durations for that full damge to apply , the power build has already applied his.

Where the remainder of that damage that conditions ticking can apply can be greatly mitigated via a cleanse, that power builds damage all came in one shot making a cleanse useless against it.

Condition damage IS meant to do damage. That is why it is there. When I rolled up my first character on launch I could do damage with conditions. Please stop making up rules .

Condi was meant to do utility dmg not pure dmg. That it can do as much dmg as power is a problem and most power dmg builds are not one shot builds because its to easy to build super tankly with high utility condi dmg.

2012 Build using conditions to kill. The game was released in 2012.

Condition builds have a condition damage stat. This can be traited for and come to you from gear. The Utility conditions are not tied to this Stat. They work on a duration principle.

From day one there was armor and runes and training regimens and consumables and weapons that added to condition damage because condition damage was intended to kill. The higher your condition damage stat the more damage those damaging conditions did. This is not a new thing. It was by design.

That power initially pumped out more damage and was preferred, hardly suggests that condition builds were never intended to kill anyone.

The problem isn’t with Condition Damage itself. The problem is that there’s less ways of dealing with Conditions than there is with Power Damage.
So Power and Condi Damage, on paper, is on par to one another. However, the ease-of-application of Power and Condi Damage is not on par.
This is in part due to dull passives (Defy Pain etc.) that generally do affect Power Damage to a large extent, but not Condi Damage.

If you want to make it fair, make it fair overall.

It’s like you haven’t heard of cleanse. There are plenty of passive cleanses too.

“Conditions can be cleansed”: no viable argument as reapers cover their stacks and mesmers/thieves/guards just reapply the condis much more frequently as most classes can clear.

And even if a class can handle the pressue, trailblazer/dire is still the king of sustain fighting an opponent who dropped most of his utility for condi cleanse.

Condi chrono can still take all that cool port, stealth, boonsteal utility. Condi thief can still shadowstep, SB5, refill endurance, stealth.

At the end of the day the worst thing that can happen to you when you run trailblazer/dire is a stalled match vs. one of the very rare builds that can handle the condi pressure. And then you have the utility advantage to disengage or reset the fight at will. You counter every build that is built for sustain against power or sustain against a mix of power and condi.

A viper / carrion reaper, mes, thief is killable. These builds are strong but there is a healthy pool of counterbuilds. Trailblazer and dire are a different story. We all know that. ANet knows that. These stats are not in sPvP for a reason.

But they can’t deleate them from PvE/WvW as this would be a huge intrusion in existing content and money spent by players.

Btw.: The power based version of trailblazer would be power, toughness, precision, vitality – a much weaker stat combo. The power based version of dire is soldiers – I guess everybody knows what’s stronger. The “condis can be cleansed” mechanic can’t compensate this mismatch.

Condi is meant to kill you though. Just not as fast as power can. Cleanse isn’t an absolute defense nor should it be.

Played yesterday in eb almost first time since EotM launch and didn’t have any kind of condi problems. Enemy even got guild inside their blob. Maybe EotM is just made me so good player that i don’t have condi problems.

Junkpile.7439:

Played yesterday in eb almost first time since EotM launch and didn’t have any kind of condi problems. Enemy even got guild inside their blob. Maybe EotM is just made me so good player that i don’t have condi problems.

Lol EB… Thats just where scrubs that dont know how to instance hop in EoTM play.

Try fighting guilds on borders consisting of 70% condi reapers that perma chill you to death.

saerni.2584:

It’s like you haven’t heard of cleanse. There are plenty of passive cleanses too.

That would work and you would have a point if cleanse where chosen or at least went after the dmg side or the soft cc side/debuff but for the most part its the last on effect. Condi builds are able to counter cleanse to effectively with covers condis that are on low cd. It would be like power builds being able to comply bypass armor boons and dmg -% all the time something that most power builds cant do.

babazhook.6805:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBQWk1FUTaU

2012 Build using conditions to kill. The game was released in 2012.

Condition builds have a condition damage stat. This can be traited for and come to you from gear. The Utility conditions are not tied to this Stat. They work on a duration principle.

From day one there was armor and runes and training regimens and consumables and weapons that added to condition damage because condition damage was intended to kill. The higher your condition damage stat the more damage those damaging conditions did. This is not a new thing. It was by design.

That power initially pumped out more damage and was preferred, hardly suggests that condition builds were never intended to kill anyone.

The thing is if it was killing ppl back then by adding the ability to stack say poison something that has the strongest utility effect in the game and that dose some of the highest dot and condi dmg % makes condi dmg unbalanced.
In a way your helping the anty condi argument by pointing out that condi dmg killed before it got a major buff. So yes condi dmg could kill back in the day but then they buffed the hell out of it and we have now a dmg type that is nearly not balanced to any of the tools in the game because only condi dmg was buffed every thing else stayed the same. So condi clears hp even heals are not even close to being on the same level of condi because they are all set for 2012 balance not 2017.

Dawdler.8521:

Junkpile.7439:

Played yesterday in eb almost first time since EotM launch and didn’t have any kind of condi problems. Enemy even got guild inside their blob. Maybe EotM is just made me so good player that i don’t have condi problems.

Lol EB… Thats just where scrubs that dont know how to instance hop in EoTM play.

Try fighting guilds on borders consisting of 70% condi reapers that perma chill you to death.

Bordelands are just EB overflow. People only play there if EB have queue. Sometime EB player go borderlands, cap everything and go back to eb.

Jski.6180:

The thing is if it was killing ppl back then by adding the ability to stack say poison something that has the strongest utility effect in the game and that dose some of the highest dot and condi dmg % makes condi dmg unbalanced.
In a way your helping the anty condi argument by pointing out that condi dmg killed before it got a major buff. So yes condi dmg could kill back in the day but then they buffed the hell out of it and we have now a dmg type that is nearly not balanced to any of the tools in the game because only condi dmg was buffed every thing else stayed the same. So condi clears hp even heals are not even close to being on the same level of condi because they are all set for 2012 balance not 2017.

Everything got massively buffed with the trait changes in June 15 and with HoT. Just as example: put a stack of the old burn – the condition with the highest dmg – on a warrior and he could outheal the dmg without doing anything but landing a burst skill every now and then. Others would be to able outheal that dmg just as easily before even factoring in cleanses, resistance and dmg avoidance, which is all much more accessible than in the past. Direct dmg is also a lot easier to land and more spammable than it used to be. Don’t even get me started on boons …The powercreep applies to everything, not only to condis (that got changed because they were completely useless in any kind of group content).

Honestly, the stats aren’t the problem. Dire is a condition damage main stat with vitality and toughness secondary stats. It can be compared to Soldier, Soldier is a power main stat with secondary vitality, and toughness. Same goes for trailblazer/wanderers.

The main problem is how the condition damage works. The conditions you put out for them to do any damage you just need condition damage as the main stat and all of your other stats can be put into Vitality/Toughness.

For power build to do any damage you need to balance out Power/Precision/Ferocity/Toughness/Vitality to get the perfect match for the kind of build you are going for.

For condition builds its literally Condition Damage/Toughness/Vitality.

To balance this out Arena Net can go two ways,

1) This is the lazy way which is simply just remove Dire / Trailblazer.

2) This one they will actually have to put some brain into it which is if ypu want the conditions to do massive damage you will need to put a lot more stat into Precision and Expertise.

Currently conditions do damage over time and they do massive amount of damage over time. If Arena Net chooses to go with optiom #2 they will also need to change how condition damage works.
-Condition damage will need to change from damage over time to burst damage.
-Every class will have access to specific conditions, for example Necromancer will have access to bleeding, chills, and fire from Death shroud auto attack, Guardians will have access to fire and slowness, Warriors will have access to bleeding and fire, Mesmers will have access to bleeding and confusion, Revenants will have access to poison and torment, thieves will have access to poison and bleeding, etc…
-The amount of cleanses a class will need to be limited.
-Resistance will need to work more like protection not complete immunity to conditions.

Basically with option #2 the game mechanism will need to change and as we all know Arena Net balance team is lazy (Blasting light field cleanses A condition). So yeah please just remove Dire and Trailblazers for the time being. Nerf epi.

Lol, the lack of balance is due to people not taking the cleanses they have the option to and then complaining when they die.

It would be like someone wearing zerk armor complaining about being one shot by power attacks.

The only way to “balance” condi vs power is to remove cleanse entirely and reduce condi damage to compensate. But then people will not need to make as many trade offs in their builds and the game will be oversimple for that reason.

saerni.2584:

Lol, the lack of balance is due to people not taking the cleanses they have the option to and then complaining when they die.

It would be like someone wearing zerk armor complaining about being one shot by power attacks.

The only way to “balance” condi vs power is to remove cleanse entirely and reduce condi damage to compensate. But then people will not need to make as many trade offs in their builds and the game will be oversimple for that reason.

Are you kidding me? Every time I do WvW I have to make sure I have more than 3 cleanses because condition spam and damage is so crazy right now. Dont even tell me game isnt balanced people arent running condi cleanses. Condition shouldnt be so strong that you need to run more than half of your skills to be condi cleanses….

saerni.2584:

Lol, the lack of balance is due to people not taking the cleanses they have the option to and then complaining when they die.

It would be like someone wearing zerk armor complaining about being one shot by power attacks.

The only way to “balance” condi vs power is to remove cleanse entirely and reduce condi damage to compensate. But then people will not need to make as many trade offs in their builds and the game will be oversimple for that reason.

Your kidding right? I’ll say my argument for a third time I guess,

A mara ele or mesmer vs a wanders necro or mesmer ends up being a very fair fight 1vs1 in spvp. In WvW the power players take the same stats and now the condi classes get dire and traiblazer making them lose no damage output while gaining 5 times as much defense. If you can’t see the obvious imbalance here then I doubt any any level of integrity exists in your character. Your probably just trolling so you can persist to spam your easy to use condi skills and do no work for your lootbags. I guess most wvw players are just karma train one pushers that have never touched spvp and what I am saying flies over their heads . . . (yes I know the curses passive trait, but that’s a very small loss of damage, same with the mesmer trait that makes clones cause bleeding, it’s almost nothing)

Five times the defense? Hyperbole is strong today.

Here’s the thing, 1) conditions are meant to kill you and you are not meant to cleanse all conditions, 2) power damage with the crit stats is better in burst damage than condition damage, 3) condition users give up dps by running dire because other hybrid stat combinations offer both the condi damage AND power damage at the same time.

And pointing to individual skills, which may need balance work, is not the same as justifying all condition users having an armor set removed from the game.

saerni.2584:

Five times the defense? Hyperbole is strong today.

Here’s the thing, 1) conditions are meant to kill you and you are not meant to cleanse all conditions, 2) power damage with the crit stats is better in burst damage than condition damage, 3) condition users give up dps by running dire because other hybrid stat combinations offer both the condi damage AND power damage at the same time.

And pointing to individual skills, which may need balance work, is not the same as justifying all condition users having an armor set removed from the game.

Kid what you talking about? You dont need to run any other stat but dire or trailblazer to do all the damage you need with conditions… healing is suppose to compensate for power dps and cleanses are suppose to compensate for conditions but condition spams is kittened in WvW that even if you run full cleanse mode you still die to conditions LOL and playing full cleanse build is not fun at all I rather be doing something else than focusing on cleansing 24/7…

CrimeMaker.8612:

saerni.2584:

Five times the defense? Hyperbole is strong today.

Here’s the thing, 1) conditions are meant to kill you and you are not meant to cleanse all conditions, 2) power damage with the crit stats is better in burst damage than condition damage, 3) condition users give up dps by running dire because other hybrid stat combinations offer both the condi damage AND power damage at the same time.

And pointing to individual skills, which may need balance work, is not the same as justifying all condition users having an armor set removed from the game.

Kid what you talking about? You dont need to run any other stat but dire or trailblazer to do all the damage you need with conditions… healing is suppose to compensate for power dps and cleanses are suppose to compensate for conditions but condition spams is kittened in WvW that even if you run full cleanse mode you still die to conditions LOL and playing full cleanse build is not fun at all I rather be doing something else than focusing on cleansing 24/7…

Nonsense. Healing addresses both Condition and Power damage. Power damage is mitigated via armor and toughness and other things like protection. The ARMOR and toughness is “always on” when it comes to power damage meaning it just easier to mitigate.

One more time. You are not supposed to have enough condition cleanse to deal with all that condition damage or condition damage would never kill anyone.

One more time. You do not need to be in berserkr armor in order to do damage in a power build. Nothing FORCES this on people. You can do plenty of damage in a power build without traiting power, precision ferocity.

One more time. If you are unable to avoid condition damage applications, then it a learn to play issue. There is nothing that precludes you from dodging or blocking those applications.

babazhook.6805:

Believe whatever you wish, it does not change the fact that dire a response to ever higher power and that dire does nothing to increase the ability to survive against other condition users.

babazhook.6805:

One more time. If you are unable to avoid condition damage applications, then it a learn to play issue. There is nothing that precludes you from dodging or blocking those applications.

So people have to run dire/trailblazer because the power is that high in this game, but everybody can dodge all condition applications, yes?

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Jski.6180:

The thing is if it was killing ppl back then by adding the ability to stack say poison something that has the strongest utility effect in the game and that dose some of the highest dot and condi dmg % makes condi dmg unbalanced.
In a way your helping the anty condi argument by pointing out that condi dmg killed before it got a major buff. So yes condi dmg could kill back in the day but then they buffed the hell out of it and we have now a dmg type that is nearly not balanced to any of the tools in the game because only condi dmg was buffed every thing else stayed the same. So condi clears hp even heals are not even close to being on the same level of condi because they are all set for 2012 balance not 2017.

Everything got massively buffed with the trait changes in June 15 and with HoT. Just as example: put a stack of the old burn – the condition with the highest dmg – on a warrior and he could outheal the dmg without doing anything but landing a burst skill every now and then. Others would be to able outheal that dmg just as easily before even factoring in cleanses, resistance and dmg avoidance, which is all much more accessible than in the past. Direct dmg is also a lot easier to land and more spammable than it used to be. Don’t even get me started on boons …The powercreep applies to everything, not only to condis (that got changed because they were completely useless in any kind of group content).

Only condi dmg and counter power dmg got a massive buff over all power dmg / crit dmg has been caped from day 1 of gw2 (well i guess it did get a buff when they added in acnsed level armor) but over all nothing has been added to the game that makes power dmg stronger then it has been with zerker.

Jana.6831:

babazhook.6805:

Believe whatever you wish, it does not change the fact that dire a response to ever higher power and that dire does nothing to increase the ability to survive against other condition users.

babazhook.6805:

One more time. If you are unable to avoid condition damage applications, then it a learn to play issue. There is nothing that precludes you from dodging or blocking those applications.

So people have to run dire/trailblazer because the power is that high in this game, but everybody can dodge all condition applications, yes?

No people do not HAVE to run dire and no people do not HAVE to dodge every condition attack. Wear whatever armor you wish and dodge whatever attacks you wish to dodge.

I have 20 some odd toons. Only one wears dire. I have one that wears TB. I have none in Zerker because contrary to claims made one does not HAVE to maximize Power , Precision and Ferocity to generate enough damage on a given power build.

My power warrior has 3.2k base armor along with about 26k health. This is more then any thief in DIRE would have yet a well played power thief can kill him because that thief can generate damage enough to do so. If my build suddenly became condition with same stats it not suddenly impossible to kill by that same thief.

I also have a condition warrior I have been playing with and it has even higher armor then that power warrior. It in fact an easier kill for a power thief. This due mainly to the fact it has limited mobility and it requires LONG engagement times with a foe in order to stack enough conditions on the same. Against a thief he can get a handful of attacks in before that thief breaks off.

In order to get the same damage a single headbutt can do from my power warrior or a single AA , it needs to get a whole lot of smaller attacks in that stack conditions to a competitive level.

Jski.6180:

Only condi dmg and counter power dmg got a massive buff over all power dmg / crit dmg has been caped from day 1 of gw2 (well i guess it did get a buff when they added in acnsed level armor) but over all nothing has been added to the game that makes power dmg stronger then it has been with zerker.

Oh yea, they clearly didn’t add power skills that are a lot stronger/more spammable/easier to land and safer to use and traits/traitlines/skills that offer both offense and defense … Why would people even invest so much into defense against power, if its in such a weak state? It wasn’t neccessary to survive in the past, so why now? Doesn’t make sense, right?
Buffs doesn’t have to be buffs to the mechanic itself.

babazhook.6805:

In order to get the same damage a single headbutt can do from my power warrior or a single AA , it needs to get a whole lot of smaller attacks in that stack conditions to a competitive level.

That is somehow the idea behind conditions – if you guys don’t like it go power.
Come on, babazhook, you’re better than arguing like you do in this thread.

babazhook.6805:

My power warrior has 3.2k base armor along with about 26k health. This is more then any thief in DIRE would have yet a well played power thief can kill him because that thief can generate damage enough to do so.

On the same skill level that 16k hp, 2,1K armor marauder thief should not be able to kill you. All you ned to do is playing aggressive to easily outdamage him in melee so he has to disengage while you also regen to full hp again. Stallmatchup at best.

As baba pointed out, healing is for damage taken. Armor reduces power damage and cleanses reduce condition damage taken.

Personally, I’d make cleanse only work on soft cc conditions and reduce condition damage to compensate. That way the damage is actually reliable and people don’t act like taking less than optimal cleanse somehow makes conditions OP. It would at least, hopefully, reduce the whining and blatantly false statements on these forums every time the topic comes up.

Make condis reflectable, like people with power builds have to deal with it, then we can have a gut power vs condi discussion.

KrHome.1920:

babazhook.6805:

My power warrior has 3.2k base armor along with about 26k health. This is more then any thief in DIRE would have yet a well played power thief can kill him because that thief can generate damage enough to do so.

On the same skill level that 16k hp, 2,1K armor marauder thief should not be able to kill you. All you ned to do is playing aggressive to easily outdamage him in melee so he has to disengage while you also regen to full hp again. Stallmatchup at best.

Yet I can kill warriors on my power thief and I KNOW , just by the damage output I am doing that said warrior is in 3k plus armor and a BASE warrior with no armor at all has more health then my thief does.

If you want to talk about equal levels of skill , you are defeating your own argument as you acknowledge skill the telling factor and not dire armor. Skilled players should beat less skilled players and tend to do so.

If a thief and warrior faced off as in your example and were equally skilled and fought to a stalemate at best then it follows that the thief in question would perform better against a warrior with lighter armor and health. That said warrior could put out more damage does not mean a heck of a lot if we are talking about a 16k health thief that generally dies to any halfway decent power build inside of a few hits landing.

A power warrior facing a power thief does not need maximum power . precision and ferocity to kill the same.Indeed higher toughness and overall armor will make that health regen more effective and give more time between thief bursts to regen more health while helping to compromise things like Executioner.

Jana.6831:

babazhook.6805:

In order to get the same damage a single headbutt can do from my power warrior or a single AA , it needs to get a whole lot of smaller attacks in that stack conditions to a competitive level.

That is somehow the idea behind conditions – if you guys don’t like it go power.
Come on, babazhook, you’re better than arguing like you do in this thread.

Yes it IS the idea behind conditions and that is how it translates into the game. Thank you for confirming my point.

More attacks ARE needed in a condition build so as to output damage that is comptetive with those big hitters in power. This means there more time needed which translates to the need for higher armor to withstand power attacks.

It is at it should be.

There might be some specific builds in the condition vein that are overtuned , but that has nothing to do with Dire armor and can be handled on a case by case basis just as the power ones are.

There might be more means of mitigating damage via traits and passives that have been added that help to magnify the effects of the Dire armor , but that is not an issue with Dire armor.

babazhook.6805:

Jana.6831:

babazhook.6805:

In order to get the same damage a single headbutt can do from my power warrior or a single AA , it needs to get a whole lot of smaller attacks in that stack conditions to a competitive level.

That is somehow the idea behind conditions – if you guys don’t like it go power.
Come on, babazhook, you’re better than arguing like you do in this thread.

Yes it IS the idea behind conditions and that is how it translates into the game. Thank you for confirming my point.

More attacks ARE needed in a condition build so as to output damage that is comptetive with those big hitters in power. This means there more time needed which translates to the need for higher armor to withstand power attacks.

It is at it should be.

There might be some specific builds in the condition vein that are overtuned , but that has nothing to do with Dire armor and can be handled on a case by case basis just as the power ones are.

There might be more means of mitigating damage via traits and passives that have been added that help to magnify the effects of the Dire armor , but that is not an issue with Dire armor.

Back in the day I was a condi thief for a week. I had about 150 1vs1, just started roaming = I was a noob and won 93% of all fights. The only ones I lost were against other condi players. I used dire and was tanky af. We also had a guy who made a video killing people without weapons, just dire armor and perplexity runes.
If people who die to condis have learn to play issues and therefore should learn how to dodge, then those who need dire to deal with the massive damage output can also dodge all power attacks, that was my point. I quit wvw, because of a lot of reasons, so I have no real idea how many people are running condi/dire and against what classes/builds they sustain. If even against warrior which you used as an example it’s pretty much OP vs OP.
Condi in general is unbalanced in this game and has been for a long time. BUT the whole game is unbalanced so it’s kind of nitpicking when calling out overtuned skills as the reason why people wear overpowered armor. No, they do so because it’s the easiest, always have, always will.

And I don’t need to point out again that a power player needs power, ferocity and best critical hitchance in their build whereas a condi player only needs condition damage, right? And yes, anet should come around and balance but I should make that very sentence my signature as I’m saying it for 2 years now and nothing happens. So. Whatever.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Jski.6180:

Only condi dmg and counter power dmg got a massive buff over all power dmg / crit dmg has been caped from day 1 of gw2 (well i guess it did get a buff when they added in acnsed level armor) but over all nothing has been added to the game that makes power dmg stronger then it has been with zerker.

Oh yea, they clearly didn’t add power skills that are a lot stronger/more spammable/easier to land and safer to use and traits/traitlines/skills that offer both offense and defense … Why would people even invest so much into defense against power, if its in such a weak state? It wasn’t neccessary to survive in the past, so why now? Doesn’t make sense, right?
Buffs doesn’t have to be buffs to the mechanic itself.

The thing is we are talking about the max dmg effect they may of added in faster skills with lower cd cast time etc.. but these skill do not do max burst dmg vs what was already in the game. They did add in more burst condi dmg and means of making max condi dmg higher though trailblazer and viper. They also added in higher tank gear though food that bluntly drops power dmg % and runes set that add high armor.

The same power dmg skills that where used before the expansion of hot are still used and are still the best dmg power dmg effects in the game its just power dmg over all has gotten no realty buff much like condi dmg and counter power dmg. Necro wells are still the best unstopable power dmg metor is still the “best” ele aoe dmg vs zergs thfs back stab is still the best one shot (do not know that much about thf). What did hot realty add for power dmg that was not already there? This power creep that every one talks about but for power dmg only?

Jana I think you’d find that many people in wvw don’t know how to play against condi. I’ve been doing spvp recently and people there know how to cleanse for the most part. I’ve been back to WvW and been shocked at how little cleanse gets run. It was faceroll only because they didn’t build against condi.

My spvp build, with more dps (adjusting for lower spvp stats), has a harder time on average than my WvW build solely because of cleanse management. I’ve killed the people who don’t run cleanse in both modes, and it is not a matter of dire (not available in spvp) vs not dire. What makes my dps go down from godly anihilation to squeaky toy is cleanse, 100%.

If I wanted to run more dps, I could, but I favor consistent lower dps with enough armor to survive being hit by a couple of people. That works better in WvW when roaming and needing to escape from adds.

Jana.6831:

babazhook.6805:

Jana.6831:

babazhook.6805:

In order to get the same damage a single headbutt can do from my power warrior or a single AA , it needs to get a whole lot of smaller attacks in that stack conditions to a competitive level.

That is somehow the idea behind conditions – if you guys don’t like it go power.
Come on, babazhook, you’re better than arguing like you do in this thread.

Yes it IS the idea behind conditions and that is how it translates into the game. Thank you for confirming my point.

More attacks ARE needed in a condition build so as to output damage that is comptetive with those big hitters in power. This means there more time needed which translates to the need for higher armor to withstand power attacks.

It is at it should be.

There might be some specific builds in the condition vein that are overtuned , but that has nothing to do with Dire armor and can be handled on a case by case basis just as the power ones are.

There might be more means of mitigating damage via traits and passives that have been added that help to magnify the effects of the Dire armor , but that is not an issue with Dire armor.

Back in the day I was a condi thief for a week. I had about 150 1vs1, just started roaming = I was a noob and won 93% of all fights. The only ones I lost were against other condi players. I used dire and was tanky af. We also had a guy who made a video killing people without weapons, just dire armor and perplexity runes.
If people who die to condis have learn to play issues and therefore should learn how to dodge, then those who need dire to deal with the massive damage output can also dodge all power attacks, that was my point. I quit wvw, because of a lot of reasons, so I have no real idea how many people are running condi/dire and against what classes/builds they sustain. If even against warrior which you used as an example it’s pretty much OP vs OP.
Condi in general is unbalanced in this game and has been for a long time. BUT the whole game is unbalanced so it’s kind of nitpicking when calling out overtuned skills as the reason why people wear overpowered armor. No, they do so because it’s the easiest, always have, always will.

And I don’t need to point out again that a power player needs power, ferocity and best critical hitchance in their build whereas a condi player only needs condition damage, right? And yes, anet should come around and balance but I should make that very sentence my signature as I’m saying it for 2 years now and nothing happens. So. Whatever.

There are more sources of power , precision and ferocity buried inside traitlines then there are sources that add to condition damage. This makes it easier to use those traits to add to those attributes without relying on your gear to do so.

As example my warrior can have a base of 20 percent crit chance via his stats and boost that to near 100 percent just by traits chosen. Fury as example is the equivalent of 420 precision. Using 3 signets can add another 680 precision.

Armored attack can generate a whack of power just from ones overall toughness. Other examples abound.

While there certainly traits that can add to ones condition damage they do not exist to the same degree.

One of my own thiefs wears valkyrie armor so as to add vitality while maximizing power. It makes up for the drop in precision via DD runes, dodging, high fury access and high raw power that more then doubles damage output before a crit even kicks in.
In WvW it runs around with a base power (after stacking Bloodlust) of around 3200 with the potential to spike that with might. to just under 4000. Steals and PI’kitten hard and given a dodge ensures a crit on next attack bounds can do a whack of damage.

As to L2p this not premised on my own skill level. I do not consider myself as one of those that is highly skilled. It based upon the variety of persons I meet and fight each day in WvW wherein while I might be on the same build on each instant , the enemy can be the SAME profession and based on skill level, beat me soundly, lose soundly or have a long drawn out fight where a mistake or two can turn the battle.

I do not win against everyone that uses a power build and I do not lose to everyone wearing dire that is a condition build. Just changing up the number of cleanses taken, the weaponsets I am using can change my success rate against the same enemy build. Were dire as OP as claimed skill levels and builds chosen would make no difference and I just do not find that to be the case.

Pvp has got a different balance than wvw. Wvw is 1 vs x, wheras spvp is 1 vs 1-5. People are running builds for different purposes. And this again is no argument as to why Dire/Trailblazer isn’t OP.

And I don’t get why babazhook doesn’t get that I used his own words against him. But maybe he did and that’s why he’s derailing the topic.

In the end: I’ve said everything I have to say in my second post on this thread.

Btw: I ditched my Dire thief for my valk/zerker thief after a week and my winrate went to 50%.
Just another fun fact.