Imagine you taking down 1 gate/wall of a a keep/tower. Imagine 50 people inside which ain’t that abnormal. Imagine they all chaining their aoe into the gap. Good luck walking through and surviving.
Aoe cap is there not only for the servers, but also because some things will be just impossible to cap and some classes will be rediculously OP. Like Ele and ranger, no. If aoe is unlimited, make healing unlimited aswel and all the other spells. But OOPS, we are back to 0 than…
So yea aoe cap is there for a really really good reason.
There is a dev post flat out saying, in plain english, its there for the simple reason of server performance.
I will say it again. If the cap were raised performance would suffer greatly. That is why it hasn’t been changed.
And I will say again:
It is utter BS that if 7 people attack me I can only hit 5 of them at a time, whilst all 7 of them can all hit me at once….
While I completely understand that the AoE cap “is needed so your servers don’t implode”, there is also no question that it gives a noticeable advantage beyond that of just having more people.
What I am saying is: If I can only hit 5 people at once, why in the world can more than 5 (five) hit me at once?
(Also don’t focus on the 1vs7 aspect of the example, same is reasonably true with 10v25, 20v35, or another other combination where one side is simply not doing damage because the other side is triggering the AoE cap)
This is just another favour easymode stacking guilds, whith 50%+ guardians with aegis. We needed a counter to stacking groups, and not another benefit for them.
Imagine you taking down 1 gate/wall of a a keep/tower. Imagine 50 people inside which ain’t that abnormal. Imagine they all chaining their aoe into the gap. Good luck walking through and surviving.
Aoe cap is there not only for the servers, but also because some things will be just impossible to cap and some classes will be rediculously OP. Like Ele and ranger, no. If aoe is unlimited, make healing unlimited aswel and all the other spells. But OOPS, we are back to 0 than…
So yea aoe cap is there for a really really good reason.
There is a dev post flat out saying, in plain english, its there for the simple reason of server performance.
I will say it again. If the cap were raised performance would suffer greatly. That is why it hasn’t been changed.
Please answer my question next Devon.
Do please elaborate on how Siege can possibly ignore the 5 target AoE cap????
Imagine you taking down 1 gate/wall of a a keep/tower. Imagine 50 people inside which ain’t that abnormal. Imagine they all chaining their aoe into the gap. Good luck walking through and surviving.
Aoe cap is there not only for the servers, but also because some things will be just impossible to cap and some classes will be rediculously OP. Like Ele and ranger, no. If aoe is unlimited, make healing unlimited aswel and all the other spells. But OOPS, we are back to 0 than…
So yea aoe cap is there for a really really good reason.
There is a dev post flat out saying, in plain english, its there for the simple reason of server performance.
I will say it again. If the cap were raised performance would suffer greatly. That is why it hasn’t been changed.
So your a hurting gameplay even more, because your system can’t handle the information? Shouldn’t the solution be to try and reduce the zergs, by making a small penalty for running with 25+ players? I really don’t understand your standpoint when it comes to WvW. You want 50v50 fights in WvW, but your servers can’t handle it, and your combat system isn’t build for it. It seems like you are shooting yourself in the foot..
80 Ranger | 80 Mesmer | 80 Thief | 80 Guardian | 40 Engineer
“The learned is happy, nature to explore. The fool is happy, that he knows no more.”
-Alexander Pope
1. AoE cap is there as a crutch for terrible players not to get discouraged by dying to 5x smaller their number like has happened in other games.
2. Downed state is the BIGGEST CRUTCH in gaming history besides stealth that allows players “ill-equipped” for many of the fights they find themselves in to have a SIGNIFICANT chance of still winning.
You guys have your “PR ways” of getting around these two blatant reasons, but these are fact. The “server cant handle shtick” is just that, a shtick. It isnt true. Sorry I’m not sorry about pointing that out.
I really don’t get what you guys are complaining about. There are technical issues that prevent raising the cap. Just deal with it. Constantly complaining about fixing the improbably won’t make it any better for you.
[Permabanned on Forums]
[Currently Inactive, Playing BF4]
Magic find works. http://sinasdf.imgur.com/
I think there is some potential in a similar limit for incoming attacks (or maybe only that, it seems like it could replace the AOE limit) if they could code such a thing. It’d be interesting to see if they’ve considered that, and what they came up with for/against it.
Would definitely extend the life of battles if only 5 (or whatever number turns out to work best) players could apply effects/damage to a person at once, instead of (or in addition to) one only being able to hit 5 simultaneously. On the downside, this may affect loot drops to some extent, and probably shouldn’t apply to champion NPC’s. Loot is adjustable though, so I wouldn’t worry too much on that account – if tagging lots of people becomes harder, rewards for the ones we do get could go up without screwing the economy (which would incidentally benefit smaller groups and solo players who don’t get to mass-tag zergs now).
I really don’t get what you guys are complaining about. There are technical issues that prevent raising the cap. Just deal with it. Constantly complaining about fixing the improbably won’t make it any better for you.
more than 10 years ago there were mmorpgs without technical problems in calculating more than 5 (lol 5 … I think I can handle it with pen and paper) targets…
If it is true ANet should instantly fire who wrote the code as it is garbage.
I really don’t get what you guys are complaining about. There are technical issues that prevent raising the cap. Just deal with it. Constantly complaining about fixing the improbably won’t make it any better for you.
At one point they said they couldn’t fix culling either…… If Anet wants to do this, they will find a way. The game was designed with no cap. As I’ve said, if you raise the cap and stop encouraging whole servers to all stand in 1 ball, then you will reduce your lag issues by changing playstyle.
Once another game comes out, and 60% at LEAST of Anets customers bail….you watch. Amazing how much can change when the $$$$ leaves the building. Weird how that works.
I really don’t get what you guys are complaining about. There are technical issues that prevent raising the cap. Just deal with it. Constantly complaining about fixing the improbably won’t make it any better for you.
more than 10 years ago there were mmorpgs without technical problems in calculating more than 5 (lol 5 … I think I can handle it with pen and paper) targets…
If it is true ANet should instantly fire who wrote the code as it is garbage.
Rewrite it and remove this stupid cap.
Yeah and did those MMOS have:
-100 people on a single map/server
-different condition/boon effects (stacks and duration) and type of conditions/done (GW2 has 12/9 distinct conditions/boons)
Let alone all the other things that are included in calculations, such as keep timers, upgrades, internal cooldowns (i.e. dolyak spawns)
[Permabanned on Forums]
[Currently Inactive, Playing BF4]
Magic find works. http://sinasdf.imgur.com/
Imagine you taking down 1 gate/wall of a a keep/tower. Imagine 50 people inside which ain’t that abnormal. Imagine they all chaining their aoe into the gap. Good luck walking through and surviving.
Aoe cap is there not only for the servers, but also because some things will be just impossible to cap and some classes will be rediculously OP. Like Ele and ranger, no. If aoe is unlimited, make healing unlimited aswel and all the other spells. But OOPS, we are back to 0 than…
So yea aoe cap is there for a really really good reason.
There is a dev post flat out saying, in plain english, its there for the simple reason of server performance.
I will say it again. If the cap were raised performance would suffer greatly. That is why it hasn’t been changed.
Please answer my question next Devon.
Do please elaborate on how Siege can possibly ignore the 5 target AoE cap????
Thank You
Jinks
Easy. You have 1 object hitting 50, not 50 objects hitting 50. All the computations are piped through 1 object (siege engine) so you don’t have to calculate boons/conditions etc on 100 things, only 50 + 1 direct damage.
NSP>ET>SoS>BG>ET>SoS>JQ>SoS>Mag>JQ
My fun laughs at your server pride.
I really don’t get what you guys are complaining about. There are technical issues that prevent raising the cap. Just deal with it. Constantly complaining about fixing the improbably won’t make it any better for you.
more than 10 years ago there were mmorpgs without technical problems in calculating more than 5 (lol 5 … I think I can handle it with pen and paper) targets…
If it is true ANet should instantly fire who wrote the code as it is garbage.
Rewrite it and remove this stupid cap.
Yeah and did those MMOS have:
-100 people on a single map/server
-different condition/boon effects (stacks and duration) and type of conditions/done (GW2 has 12/9 distinct conditions/boons)
Let alone all the other things that are included in calculations, such as keep timers, upgrades, internal cooldowns (i.e. dolyak spawns)
Obviously they were complete games … with all their calculations, their class, their buffs/debuffs everything that’s needed.
And there were much much more than 100 ppl in a map.
I really don’t get what you guys are complaining about. There are technical issues that prevent raising the cap. Just deal with it. Constantly complaining about fixing the improbably won’t make it any better for you.
At one point they said they couldn’t fix culling either…… If Anet wants to do this, they will find a way. The game was designed with no cap. As I’ve said, if you raise the cap and stop encouraging whole servers to all stand in 1 ball, then you will reduce your lag issues by changing playstyle.
I don’t recall them saying they couldn’t fix it – they said that it would be difficult. That’s an open-ended response that invites the possibility that it can be fixed in the future, but also manages expectations. Then that Habib guy worked months on it and we got it (and surprise of course, people still complain about it and want it reverted).
It’s the same thing here. Devon didn’t say they will absolutely not fix it. He just said that there are currently no plans.
Everyone here needs to manage their expectations and understand that there are limitations in the engine, and that you have to deal with it otherwise until they have the time and resources to make these changes.
I want an increased cap just like everyone but I understand there is a reason why it’s in game and why we won’t see a fix.
[Permabanned on Forums]
[Currently Inactive, Playing BF4]
Magic find works. http://sinasdf.imgur.com/
Imagine you taking down 1 gate/wall of a a keep/tower. Imagine 50 people inside which ain’t that abnormal. Imagine they all chaining their aoe into the gap. Good luck walking through and surviving.
Aoe cap is there not only for the servers, but also because some things will be just impossible to cap and some classes will be rediculously OP. Like Ele and ranger, no. If aoe is unlimited, make healing unlimited aswel and all the other spells. But OOPS, we are back to 0 than…
So yea aoe cap is there for a really really good reason.
There is a dev post flat out saying, in plain english, its there for the simple reason of server performance.
I will say it again. If the cap were raised performance would suffer greatly. That is why it hasn’t been changed.
Please answer my question next Devon.
Do please elaborate on how Siege can possibly ignore the 5 target AoE cap????
Thank You
Jinks
Easy. You have 1 object hitting 50, not 50 objects hitting 50. All the computations are piped through 1 object (siege engine) so you don’t have to calculate boons/conditions etc on 100 things, only 50 + 1 direct damage.
Not only that, but people don’t use flame rams as an offensive weapon. You don’t see flame rams being manned all across the map being used in huge zerg fights.
[Permabanned on Forums]
[Currently Inactive, Playing BF4]
Magic find works. http://sinasdf.imgur.com/
Speaking as a grenade engineer, could you please cap the amount of retaliation damage I take to 5 per second please since every thing else is capped at 5? It’s not fun taking 12k damage from 40 stacks of retaliation from using 1 barrage throw, which was designed to be thrown into zergs. And, before the l2p comment comes in, let me say this is an example. I would never use that ability in a zerg situation because I know every zerg has nearly 50% guardians these days and light fields galore. It’s just kind of silly that a defensive near perma buff is the best uncapped aoe in the game aside from arrowcarts. If you’re going to cap aoe, then cap all aoe.
I’m usually all for bashing developers when they deserve it for bad decisions and are responsible for stupid bugs.
In this case I respect Devon’s comment’s, at this point in the game he has no control over the engine and has to work with what he has. I can sympathize with that. The engine can’t handle it (opinions can be made on whether the engine sucks or not), but it just can’t and probably without months to a year or more of work it’s not going to get fixed.
IMO judging from everything else I have seen in this game, whoever the brain trust behind the scenes that architected the system, seems to have over-designed and over-engineered parts of the system (Example how to process queue’s) with more complex calculations that while probably cool from a developer/design perspective….don’t scale well at all….that’s just my opinion though.
We’re stuck with the AOE Cap….I think we baste Devon and the other dev’s enough that people really shouldn’t jump on them for things that they don’t have control of.
I really don’t get what you guys are complaining about. There are technical issues that prevent raising the cap. Just deal with it. Constantly complaining about fixing the improbably won’t make it any better for you.
At one point they said they couldn’t fix culling either…… If Anet wants to do this, they will find a way. The game was designed with no cap. As I’ve said, if you raise the cap and stop encouraging whole servers to all stand in 1 ball, then you will reduce your lag issues by changing playstyle.
I don’t recall them saying they couldn’t fix it – they said that it would be difficult. That’s an open-ended response that invites the possibility that it can be fixed in the future, but also manages expectations. Then that Habib guy worked months on it and we got it (and surprise of course, people still complain about it and want it reverted).
It’s the same thing here. Devon didn’t say they will absolutely not fix it. He just said that there are currently no plans.
Everyone here needs to manage their expectations and understand that there are limitations in the engine, and that you have to deal with it otherwise until they have the time and resources to make these changes.
I want an increased cap just like everyone but I understand there is a reason why it’s in game and why we won’t see a fix.
I am pretty sure they did say they couldn’t fix culling in the beginning. Then it turned into “we are working on a possible solution”. But I may be wrong.
One thing I am sure of is they stated a few times that separating the NA/EU resets was “impossible”.
Not really the same thing I know, but you have to factor things like this in whenever you question why people question ANET’s truth.
Anet keeps adding in things that feed the zerg in 1 spot mentality. The only reason we want he cap increased is because Anet is not offering any other plans to change the zerg meta that is WvW. On the contrary they keep adding in things the encourage it. The whole point here is that we would like a change that brings about more enjoyable play instead of the 100 people stand in 1 spot and try to press 1 over and over thing we have now.
Anet keeps adding in things that feed the zerg in 1 spot mentality. The only reason we want he cap increased is because Anet is not offering any other plans to change the zerg meta that is WvW. On the contrary they keep adding in things the encourage it. The whole point here is that we would like a change that brings about more enjoyable play instead of the 100 people stand in 1 spot and try to press 1 over and over thing we have now.
I agree, and like I said before (personally) I am fine with the 5-man AoE cap….But I don’t want to be able to only hit 5 while 25 can hit me all at once.
So there needs to be some give/take involved…IE: a defensive 5-limit dmg cap to offset the offensive AoE cap.
Even a cap raise to at least ten would still be too much? Because at the moment it sometimes feels like 5 is too small
Raising it even one would have significant performance impact because you need to think of it over an equation that causes that to multiply very quickly. Until and unless there are significant changes in the engine, which isn’t on the table, we will not be raising the cap on player skill AoE.
Well, at least that’s a refreshingly honest admission of failure.
D/D Thief who prefers mobility to stealth … so yeah, I die a lot
Stormbluff Isle [AoD]
its BS. this dumb aoe cap is really starting to get on my nerves because its completely helping zergs in every way shape and form. more people = more AOEs = more spam = more people being hit, less people = less AOEs = less ability to combat larger numbers. Adding an RNG 5 man AOE law was a horrible idea when it was implemented and now I hear its getting more parameters in the next patch. WTF. just stop anet. people should be punished for standing in AOEs regardless of how many people are beside them. boons wouldnt even be a concern after the patch nerfs boon stacking so what do you have to worry about removing the AOE cap? OH CRAP GUYS SKILLED PLAYERS ARE BEATING 50 MAN ZERGS BETTER NERF SKILL! what next make it hit all players in downstate first before hitting everyone else? or how about just reduce the damage dealt by the people with less numbers by 50%. how far will you take this bs about AOE laws anet…
The solution is easy: Don’t play the game. By playing the game you are rewarding the develops responsible for WvW and pvp for a terrible design and a horrible job.
There are tons of other games out there and new consoles coming out that reward skill over numbers and baddies.
AoE has zip to do with zergs… stacking yes… zergs no. AoE cap or no, zergs will still exist considering 50 people can cap something faster than 5 with equal rewards for everyone.
If they could remove the AoE cap, they would have to reduce its overall effectiveness. AoE is already the highest DPS in the game and would be ridiculously OP with the cap removed. The AoE cap for better or worse is also a governor on DPS. It is not like they would remove the cap and let that same damage effect everyone the same way. No way does it make sense that a single AoE hit should spike 150k or more DPS.
Sarcasm For Hire [SFH]
“Youre lips are movin and youre complaining about something thats wingeing.”
Love how everyone is a game developer on these boards.
Granted there is always things that can be better and improved, but really guys how can you possibly know anything that truly goes on behind the scenes.
Love how everyone is a game developer on these boards.
Granted there is always things that can be better and improved, but really guys how can you possibly know anything that truly goes on behind the scenes.
When your steak comes back well done and you ordered it rare….you have a pretty good idea what went wrong and you never once saw the chef make your steak…..
We don’t know all the details, but we can infer from the results we see and compare to similar processes other similar games go through with their processes. Your right we can never know 100%, but we can infer quite a bit with good observation
AoE has zip to do with zergs… stacking yes… zergs no. AoE cap or no, zergs will still exist considering 50 people can cap something faster than 5 with equal rewards for everyone.
If they could remove the AoE cap, they would have to reduce its overall effectiveness. AoE is already the highest DPS in the game and would be ridiculously OP with the cap removed. The AoE cap for better or worse is also a governor on DPS. It is not like they would remove the cap and let that same damage effect everyone the same way. No way does it make sense that a single AoE hit should spike 150k or more DPS.
Its only ridiculously OP if people all stand in the same circle which is the point of this conversation. Zergs are more effective because they can exploit the 5 man aoe cap. And Anet continues to make changes that improve their effectiveness. This in turn brings about a playstyle that apparently their game engine can’t handle.
A well coordinated group of smaller players can’t dent a zerg at all because their damage is randomly spread out while they stand together. But if that zerg was more dispersed, then a smaller group could spike down targets because the cap does not come into effect.
Zergs won’t magically go away, but they will be far more enjoyable to fight against and less effective because they can’t exploit a game mechanic.
A well coordinated group of smaller players can’t dent a zerg at all because their damage is randomly spread out while they stand together. But if that zerg was more dispersed, then a smaller group could spike down targets because the cap does not come into effect.
Aside from the many other reasons for keeping a cap in place, if they did remove it the zergs would simply run a net formation. 5 players will never (barring extreme circumstance) be able to counter 50 cap or no. The concept that 5 players should be able to bomb 50 players is ludicrous. Removing the AoE cap and leaving AoE damage as it is today will NEVER happen. It cannot happen for performance AND balance reasons.
Zergs won’t magically go away, but they will be far more enjoyable to fight against and less effective because they can’t exploit a game mechanic.
Again zergs don’t form mostly or solely because of AoE cap. Higher rewards, players easily brought back from death, easier to follow, etc all combine to make zergs attractive to a lot of players. Stacking is just a tactic zergs employ… removing that tactic will only change the zerg’s tactics but not the zerg itself.
IMO, keep the AoE cap and unlock the control cap which would likely improve performance and counter stacking without creating absurd class DPS.
Sarcasm For Hire [SFH]
“Youre lips are movin and youre complaining about something thats wingeing.”
Love how everyone is a game developer on these boards.
Granted there is always things that can be better and improved, but really guys how can you possibly know anything that truly goes on behind the scenes.
When your steak comes back well done and you ordered it rare….you have a pretty good idea what went wrong and you never once saw the chef make your steak…..
We don’t know all the details, but we can infer from the results we see and compare to similar processes other similar games go through with their processes. Your right we can never know 100%, but we can infer quite a bit with good observation
Very true, however you and I don’t see the chef ignoring the steak because he is perfecting some amazing dessert reciepe. If he focuses on the steak….then the dessert is mediocre. All we see is that steak isn’t the way we want it and have yet to see the dessert.
I’m saying there are always idea, changes, things in the pipeline for an MMO. It will never be perfect in any state at anytime in it’s lifecycle, much like it will never be finished.
Love how everyone is a game developer on these boards.
Granted there is always things that can be better and improved, but really guys how can you possibly know anything that truly goes on behind the scenes.
When your steak comes back well done and you ordered it rare….you have a pretty good idea what went wrong and you never once saw the chef make your steak…..
We don’t know all the details, but we can infer from the results we see and compare to similar processes other similar games go through with their processes. Your right we can never know 100%, but we can infer quite a bit with good observation
Very true, however you and I don’t see the chef ignoring the steak because he is perfecting some amazing dessert reciepe. If he focuses on the steak….then the dessert is mediocre. All we see is that steak isn’t the way we want it and have yet to see the dessert.
I’m saying there are always idea, changes, things in the pipeline for an MMO. It will never be perfect in any state at anytime in it’s lifecycle, much like it will never be finished.
Well other than the fact that I never order dessert. The steak comes first, the dessert is extra, it’s not the main meal.
Devon, do you think bringing retaliation in line may help this problem? It may be its purpose to punish aoe users but in its current state it completely destroys any non bunker aoe user.
If anything the block/dodge helps the skilled players not the zerglings.
If the frontline manage to absorb more “hits” with blocks/dodges, thus for the guys that were unable too dodge the attacks, a portion of the aoe is “used up” on those blocks/evades.
Sure in a random zerg you might see a few blocks and dodges, but nowhere near what a guild group does.
Promotes better play imo. You are saving your teammates getting hit by attacks by dodging them yourself – which in most cases your doing naturally anyways.
Agree…. maybe the ranged and melee will now stay together and dodge though a zerg together holding hands XD
Anet keeps adding in things that feed the zerg in 1 spot mentality. The only reason we want he cap increased is because Anet is not offering any other plans to change the zerg meta that is WvW. On the contrary they keep adding in things the encourage it. The whole point here is that we would like a change that brings about more enjoyable play instead of the 100 people stand in 1 spot and try to press 1 over and over thing we have now.
I agree, and like I said before (personally) I am fine with the 5-man AoE cap….But I don’t want to be able to only hit 5 while 25 can hit me all at once.
So there needs to be some give/take involved…IE: a defensive 5-limit dmg cap to offset the offensive AoE cap.
Stop standing around on your own and get in a group then? :-P
Love how everyone is a game developer on these boards.
Granted there is always things that can be better and improved, but really guys how can you possibly know anything that truly goes on behind the scenes.
When your steak comes back well done and you ordered it rare….you have a pretty good idea what went wrong and you never once saw the chef make your steak…..
We don’t know all the details, but we can infer from the results we see and compare to similar processes other similar games go through with their processes. Your right we can never know 100%, but we can infer quite a bit with good observation
Very true, however you and I don’t see the chef ignoring the steak because he is perfecting some amazing dessert reciepe. If he focuses on the steak….then the dessert is mediocre. All we see is that steak isn’t the way we want it and have yet to see the dessert.
I’m saying there are always idea, changes, things in the pipeline for an MMO. It will never be perfect in any state at anytime in it’s lifecycle, much like it will never be finished.
You sound like the guy I was arguing with about five months ago regarding the horrible imbalance in most matches. He stated that we had no idea what ANet actually had in the works and that he was pretty certain we’ve see a fix “soon” (I’m pretty sure that ANet has somehow the trademark to that term). I bet him that we wouldn’t see any improvement for at least six months … one more month and I win my bet.
So far the “steak” (balanced matches, reduced lag, fresh content, etc) is still part of a cow eating corn somewhere, and the “dessert” (siege mastery, bloodlust, leagues, etc) has indeed been amazing … but only in terms of being unwanted and virtually inedible.
D/D Thief who prefers mobility to stealth … so yeah, I die a lot
Stormbluff Isle [AoD]
I will say it again. If the cap were raised performance would suffer greatly. That is why it hasn’t been changed.
So why the change to having characters who block count towards the 5 player cap then, which as noted is another thing that promotes zerging. It was working before so its not a system performance issue
Jade Quarry [SoX]
Miranda Zero – Ele / Twitch Zero – Mes / Chargrin Soulboom – Engi
Aliera Zero – Guardian / Reaver Zero – Necro
Anet keeps adding in things that feed the zerg in 1 spot mentality. The only reason we want he cap increased is because Anet is not offering any other plans to change the zerg meta that is WvW. On the contrary they keep adding in things the encourage it. The whole point here is that we would like a change that brings about more enjoyable play instead of the 100 people stand in 1 spot and try to press 1 over and over thing we have now.
I agree, and like I said before (personally) I am fine with the 5-man AoE cap….But I don’t want to be able to only hit 5 while 25 can hit me all at once.
So there needs to be some give/take involved…IE: a defensive 5-limit dmg cap to offset the offensive AoE cap.
Stop standing around on your own and get in a group then? :-P
Just because this game promotes 50 man blobbing doesn’t mean you have to do it. :P
As a programmer, I can respect that this may be a difficult undertaking. But as a user, I’d like to ask that you reevaluate these algorithms and perhaps come up with a clever method/approach to applying aoe dmg. There’s got to be a better way. Other games have been doing this for many years. I know you guys can do it. /sends Cookies
As a programmer, I can respect that this may be a difficult undertaking. But as a user, I’d like to ask that you reevaluate these algorithms and perhaps come up with a clever method/approach to applying aoe dmg. There’s got to be a better way. Other games have been doing this for many years. I know you guys can do it. /sends Cookies
Oh noes!! You told them you are a programmer! You are doomed and on Anet’s watch list! Prepare for infraction!!
I’m a programmer too…and I agree and I /send brownies!!
Skill lag starts at around 50v50 Good players fighting.
Current game process just taking into account damage:
100×5= 500 calculations just for damage per second
Your proposition is for the game to be doing:
100×50 = 5000 calculations just for dmg per second.
This would mean on average you would only need 12v12 to start experiencing your skill lag. Excluding all other calculations. 24×12 = 576 calculations per second
Of all the variables(calculations) that the CPU has to keep track of after an AoE event triggers, are there some that can be removed/consolidated so that the AoE limit can be increased?
Condi build players in PvE typically get looked down on because after max stacks are reached their effective DPS decreases. Could a fix to DoT diminishing returns also allow for an increase in the AoE limit?
Skill lag starts at around 50v50 Good players fighting.
Current game process just taking into account damage:
100×5= 500 calculations just for damage per second
Your proposition is for the game to be doing:
100×50 = 5000 calculations just for dmg per second.
This would mean on average you would only need 12v12 to start experiencing your skill lag. Excluding all other calculations. 24×12 = 576 calculations per second
Great idea! -.-
No….he’s saying other games have been doing calculations like this…also on a large scale and they don’t even cause a hiccup in the server…
Usually calculations are a nominal part of processing for a server with good power behind it….it’s just in this game, it seems to tax the server to high hell when these calculations are done…he’s just saying…we know its hard and not easy…but could you please find a way to make it work
Now in MY opinion….I think the original developers got all creative and were like “lets just load all dis stuff into the player model object”, so we have all dis wonderful data at our fingertips and we can easily add new content with all dis data available and configurable right on the player model!!! Oh wait…..what happens though when server has to calculate lots of equations in WvW using data in the player model?? Now we got all this extra crap that we don’t even use in WvW in the player model that’s used in PvE and stuff…and we can’t remove it??!?! Zomgz is crashing our server now…bah…no one plays WvW anyway….most of our money comes from PvE anyway…soooo kitten it!
No….he’s saying other games have been doing calculations like this…also on a large scale and they don’t even cause a hiccup in the server…
Usually calculations are a nominal part of processing for a server with good power behind it….it’s just in this game, it seems to tax the server to high hell when these calculations are done…he’s just saying…we know its hard and not easy…but could you please find a way to make it work
I completely disagree. There is no game (that I am aware of) that has complex combat (fields, boon/condi stacks, dodge mechanics, positional damage, etc) that can handle this many players. DAoC is probably the closest and it is more akin to a text based MUD compared to the combat in GW2. Basically no game (that I know of) has rich deep combat and 100+ players running around.
Also calculations are only part of the issue. Virtually all multi-threaded systems have wait states while they sync data. These wait states (somewhat akin to internal lag) cannot be easily coded around. So the servers are trying to resolve dozens if not hundreds of inputs in sequence per player per second, compressing the output and distributing to all other players. The more sequences the more computation, wait states and lag. It is all a balancing act and none of it is simple.
Disclaimer: I am also a developer along with some others listed above. I do not have inner workings of MMO development so my opinion is at best an educated guess based on my own n-tier, over the internet, high capacity multi-user, multi-threaded environment which includes thousands of active users and databases topping several terabytes.
Sarcasm For Hire [SFH]
“Youre lips are movin and youre complaining about something thats wingeing.”
I completely disagree. There is no game (that I am aware of) that has complex combat (fields, boon/condi stacks, dodge mechanics, positional damage, etc) that can handle this many players. DAoC is probably the closest and it is more akin to a text based MUD compared to the combat in GW2. Basically no game (that I know of) has rich deep combat and 100+ players running around.
While I understand your sentiment, anyone can design something so overtly powerful that it is not practical in its application. I mean you could probably design a combustion engine so powerful you might not even be able to design a frame to withstand it…But at the end of the day what good is that engine if you cant even use it? Sure its awesome to say “look at this marvel of engineering”, but if it cannot be fully applied then what is the point?
Then the question(s) begs to be answered: Why make the game if it can’t be fully implemented? Why advertise massive open world pvp, then develop an incredibly rich combat system that cannot be implemented on a massive scale?
Why pack maps full of people and handicap all that developer work so that it is even remotely playable?
The answer is simple: Poor planning, poor testing, poor execution.
No….he’s saying other games have been doing calculations like this…also on a large scale and they don’t even cause a hiccup in the server…
Usually calculations are a nominal part of processing for a server with good power behind it….it’s just in this game, it seems to tax the server to high hell when these calculations are done…he’s just saying…we know its hard and not easy…but could you please find a way to make it work
I completely disagree. There is no game (that I am aware of) that has complex combat (fields, boon/condi stacks, dodge mechanics, positional damage, etc) that can handle this many players. DAoC is probably the closest and it is more akin to a text based MUD compared to the combat in GW2. Basically no game (that I know of) has rich deep combat and 100+ players running around.
Also calculations are only part of the issue. Virtually all multi-threaded systems have wait states while they sync data. These wait states (somewhat akin to internal lag) cannot be easily coded around. So the servers are trying to resolve dozens if not hundreds of inputs in sequence per player per second, compressing the output and distributing to all other players. The more sequences the more computation, wait states and lag. It is all a balancing act and none of it is simple.
Disclaimer: I am also a developer along with some others listed above. I do not have inner workings of MMO development so my opinion is at best an educated guess based on my own n-tier, over the internet, high capacity multi-user, multi-threaded environment which includes thousands of active users and databases topping several terabytes.
Yes, I agree you in fact stated part of what I said. I was basically stating that it’s not the calculations themselves that are causing the server lag. I was over simplifying the problem by using the player model example (one of the reasons for culling if I remember correctly). The point of the post was that they clearly did not build the application from the ground up with scalability in mind for WvW applications..and with that there are some parts of the foundation of GW2 that are not easy to fix…we were just asking and handing out brownies if they could try to get creative and come up with one of those crazy workarounds that would lift the cap a bit
Before you ask why there’s a cap in AoE targets, I’d like to ask why there’s no diminish return in terms of damage for the number of targets hit.
Let’s say there’s no cap in AoE and you hit up to 20 targets with your AoE.
The damage should be scaled down to 1/10 to compensate the number of targets hit.
Otherwise, AoE will do 20 times more damage than a single target skill.
If AoE has no targets limit, ask yourself,
is that fair?
Logically, no.
How about retaliation? How it fits into your idea of uncapped AoE?
One tick of your uncapped AoE placed perfectly on the zerg and you dead. Ask mesmers how they feel about putting feedback on retal-heavy zergs. Of flamethrower engies.
I will say it again. If the cap were raised performance would suffer greatly. That is why it hasn’t been changed.
The question is, why is this acceptable? Just cause you say it is so does not make it okay.
If I try to sell a car, I cannot tell a customer “we put an automatic system in the car where you cannot got above the speed of 50mph, because if you do, the engine will suffer for it”. You are basically admitting your code/engine/server architecture is inefficient.
Why was a game allowed to ship while in such a state?
I am not for or against an AoE cap mind you, I just dont understand how a company such as Arenanet can ship an unfinished and broken product and get away with that.
Is it really about ANet’s tech that they purposely “dumbed down” based on performance reviews during the BWE’s? Or is it more about how some people have computers that just can’t handle all that stuff. I run the game maxed out blah blah and in WvW, my fps dips to ~15 in large fights. Not everyone is that lucky. I’m not quite sure, but I remember there being no aoe cap in bwe1 for a bit, or it was still glitchy. It ran so horribly at times, and even though they were still working on the engine tests, I still didn’t want to play sometimes because I wasn’t really playing… I was just logged into a slideshow lol
It is utter BS that if 7 people attack me I can only hit 5 of them at a time, whilst all 7 of them can all hit me at once….
While I completely understand that the AoE cap “is needed so your servers don’t implode”, there is also no question that it gives a noticeable advantage beyond that of just having more people.
What I am saying is: If I can only hit 5 people at once, why in the world can more than 5 (five) hit me at once?
(Also don’t focus on the 1vs7 aspect of the example, same is reasonably true with 10v25, 20v35, or another other combination where one side is simply not doing damage because the other side is triggering the AoE cap)
And what about introducing the same cap from attackers?
I mean I can only hit 5 targets (players should have priority in this) and it would be correct that I can be hitted only by 5 players, at least simultaneously.
If 10 ppl come and hit me with their #1 skill, ok, I’ll take one after one every attack, but if 10 ppl put 10 AoE on the ground (eg: well, meteors etc etc) only 5 of them hit me.
Right … first propose a change that makes zerging weaker, then in the very same thread suggest something that would strengthen zergs even more.
Since you yourself point out that AoEs aren’t exactly zergbusters due to the cap, where exactly do you guess the damage comes from that damages the zerg? Correct, cleaving skills.
You’re proposing that an organized 10 man group becomes even less effective against a 20 man random blob due to them not being able to actually hurt them.
Not to mention that accurately calculating which skills are allowed to hit every player and which aren’t just introduces additional calculation work on the server, I reckon.
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