Guild Wars 2

what do you think would change about not only tactics in WVW as well as spread of playerbase within the WVW community if downstate did not exist, or did not exist in the way it is currently?

Its an interesting question to ask because downstate changes so much of the gameplay to such a degree its impossible to 100% see what would happen if it did not exist.

IMO there would be way more synergy groups running around (10-15 man) and zergs would be a lot less prominent. Tactics would have to be based on reacting a lot quicker to smaller scale assaults at the risk of being punished greatly.

Downed state isn’t the main problem. The rally mechanic is……

I personally would like for anet to remove the downstate completely.
it would discurage baddies to pug around and serve as rally bots.

Removing downstate would completely break this game.

The very notion of it is silly.

EFWinters.5421:

Removing downstate would completely break this game.

The very notion of it is silly.

what exactly would be broken? Only groups that benefit from downstate are blobs that consist mostly of unskilled players, skilled players would be nothing but rewarded by It.
map blobs would think twice before engaging skilled guild group.

how about roamers that rally of rondom deer that Just happens to be there, do you find It amusing to kill same Player twice; or he might run away bacause he killed a deer before you could Get the stomp off.

It can stay in pvp but wvw would be better without it

I would go even further: 15sec autorespawn just like pvp unless the player is getting handressed; that would prevent mesmers from dying on the gates

if down state is gone then a rez mechanic would be needed, on gw1 everyone had access to a rez signet and another specific rez skill, in this game rez skills don’t work on dead people, only downed ones.

With their introduction of finishers and the ability for them to sell them on the trading post eliminates any chance of downed state being removed in my opinion. I do think that it is possible and they should make it so that if a person is completely dead they can not be rezzed by folks in combat. Another thing that I think they should think about is making a debuff for teleporting such as waiting 1-2minutes after combat to be able to port. Being able to port instantly once you are out of combat is just silly.

I don’t think that the 1-2min wait time is a good idea, most of the time run back feels punishing enough but I have to agree on everything else you said Paxus

It wouldn’t work. For a start, there would be no way to defend a tower at all as anyone on the wall would be vaporised in about ten seconds.

The only thing that removing downstate would do is mean that zergs win, always and that whoever initiates the attack wins, always.

It would cause cowardice, nobody would take any risks, or engage and the whole wvw idea would simply fall apart only to be replaced by PvDoor.

MFWIC.6091:

I would go even further: 15sec autorespawn just like pvp unless the player is getting handressed; that would prevent mesmers from dying on the gates

15 seconds is a pretty short time. I would say maybe 5 minutes. Long enough for a fight to finish up for either side but too short to effectively use a dead mesmer in Bay. Plus if its established than someone can just watch the body for the 5 minutes and make sure no one is hard-ressing it then more people would be willing to take a short break.

chronometria.3708:

It would cause cowardice, nobody would take any risks, or engage and the whole wvw idea would simply fall apart only to be replaced by PvDoor.

Thats funny because that is what I feel the game is like now..

WvW would be better off. I like the downed state but dislike the rally mechanic. I can live without either but would prefer rally be gone.

Canguro.5768:

if down state is gone then a rez mechanic would be needed, on gw1 everyone had access to a rez signet and another specific rez skill, in this game rez skills don’t work on dead people, only downed ones.

GW1 is not a good comparison. That game had instanced PvE which would completely reset if everyone died. GW2 has waypoints and almost nothing resets. Group wipes in GW1 were very painful. Group wipes in GW2 are inconvenient at best.

overall I believe that this game is not punishing enough for bad gameplay, but I guess not every game can be like dark souls

MFWIC.6091:

EFWinters.5421:

Removing downstate would completely break this game.

The very notion of it is silly.

what exactly would be broken? Only groups that benefit from downstate are blobs that consist mostly of unskilled players, skilled players would be nothing but rewarded by It.
map blobs would think twice before engaging skilled guild group.

how about roamers that rally of rondom deer that Just happens to be there, do you find It amusing to kill same Player twice; or he might run away bacause he killed a deer before you could Get the stomp off.

It can stay in pvp but wvw would be better without it

Whether or not you know how to deal with downed state is a defining factor in how skilled you are at the game. It’s just another layer where skilled players can easily outplay unskilled players, and the fact that you don’t treat it as such makes me think you are a part of category two.

I will agree that rallying off PvE mobs is annoying though.

Just remove hardressing while in combat as suggested countless times before. You can still hardress your buddies after you won but you will have more to do than just throwing more and more people against the smaller group.

It’s just another layer where skilled players can easily outplay unskilled players

If by “skilled players” you mean a blob big enough to ress anyone in seconds, then yes. But usually the skilled players play in smaller groups (to avoid skill lag etc) and usually don’t have much time to ress their fallen.

I have mixed feelings about the downed state and there are two things that need some tweaking I think:
1. Zergs – It is too hard to kill stuff in a zerg due to so many resurrects. At least when your server induces the “outnumbered buff” there should be a negative effect on rallying.
2. “Zergs vs. walls” – It should be easier to kill off mindless forces of people DPSing a gate for a few defenders inside. Face it, whe you have 5 people inside a tower and 20 on the outside none of the attackers will die unless they are extremely stupid. Best way to fix this would be a “Stalwart Defender” ability that allows you to deal double damage on downed foes while fighting inside a tower or the inner wall of a keep, perhaps.

Iavra.8510:

If by “skilled players” you mean a blob big enough to ress anyone in seconds

No.

Iavra.8510:

But usually the skilled players … don’t have much time to ress their fallen.

Speak for yourself.

Straegen.2938:

WvW would be better off. I like the downed state but dislike the rally mechanic. I can live without either but would prefer rally be gone.

Canguro.5768:

if down state is gone then a rez mechanic would be needed, on gw1 everyone had access to a rez signet and another specific rez skill, in this game rez skills don’t work on dead people, only downed ones.

GW1 is not a good comparison. That game had instanced PvE which would completely reset if everyone died. GW2 has waypoints and almost nothing resets. Group wipes in GW1 were very painful. Group wipes in GW2 are inconvenient at best.

but the difference is that we are talking about WvW here and not PvE

Epic.3950:

what do you think would change about not only tactics in WVW as well as spread of playerbase within the WVW community if downstate did not exist, or did not exist in the way it is currently?

Its an interesting question to ask because downstate changes so much of the gameplay to such a degree its impossible to 100% see what would happen if it did not exist.

IMO there would be way more synergy groups running around (10-15 man) and zergs would be a lot less prominent. Tactics would have to be based on reacting a lot quicker to smaller scale assaults at the risk of being punished greatly.

It would not change the zerg at all. People will still zerg because they like to play around other people. Zergs are the safest place to be.

There are already plenty of smaller groups running around. Typically these are for guilds. If you don’t like the zerg, join one of them.

Does 15 players rallying of 1 player seems fair to you?

Canguro.5768:

but the difference is that we are talking about WvW here and not PvE

GW1 did not have WvW and the GW1 rez is pretty much only necessary because of steep group death penalty in PvE. Saying GW2 should have it because of GW1 is not really a relevant comparison. Also in GW2 any player can rez a fully downed player without any special skill.

Anet (for the good of the game) should just remove it completely from WvW. You die, you die, your teleported back to your servers wp. No laying around like a lump.

The flow of the game would increase greatly, battles would be quicker and smoother, and it may even help with skill lag by reducing the number of people in zerg battles (quite quickly) instead of having a bunch of red down arrows everywhere.

Then again, with the edition of downed finishers (Massive mistake) they’ve all but stated downed state stays. I’m almost positive they know downed state is a mistake but they’re hands are tied now because of the sale of these finishers. I wonder how much they actually make off them.

What they should do to shake up WvW and give more of a penalty for dying; damage 1 piece of armor on downed, damage another piece if killed. Then remove the repair vendor from WvW and disallow repair cannisters from being used as well.

DeadlySynz.3471:

Anet (for the good of the game) should just remove it completely from WvW. You die, you die, your teleported back to your servers wp. No laying around like a lump.

Agreed. I would be for keeping downed state without rally because as you pointed out finishers are a thing that aren’t going anywhere.

The change would also allow for better small group roaming and stronger tower/keep defense. Right now a smaller force has zero incentive on hitting a substantially larger force since the larger force will reconstitute itself within seconds.

Downstate has many issues – chief among them being the imbalance of how good they are between classes. Another being several classes mechanic will some times simply not work for no reason at all.

Before ANYTHING else gets changed the Downstates must be equal – be it equally good (Thief) or equally bad(Engi)

WvW would probably be empty if down state was removed. Hardcore, skilled, organized players would be wiping groups 5x+ there number. The bads and pugs would get frustrated getting wiped over and over again and quit wvw. Majority of wvw are casuals and skill less zergers and the removal of the down state would alienate majority of the wvw player base. Though it does sound like it would be fun.

vincecontix.1264:

WvW would probably be empty if down state was removed. Hardcore, skilled, organized players would be wiping groups 5x+ there number. The bads and pugs would get frustrated getting wiped over and over again and quit wvw. Majority of wvw are casuals and skill less zergers and the removal of the down state would alienate majority of the wvw player base. Though it does sound like it would be fun.

I disagree with you. I think it would encourage pugs to actually bring something to the table and make themselves into more than just a supply mules/wxp farmers. Just because someone is a casual player doesn’t mean they should come to wvw on their pve builds and get rewarded for it simply by attaching themselves to map blob.

1. Stealth stomp (and to a lesser extent, quickness stomp) needs addressing to remove far too much imbalance

2. No movement during down state for some classes (even a cripple crawl would be welcome); downed states with movement/stealth is what creates frustration. And classes with inferior downed state abilities creates more imbalance.

3. Flip side, it encourages ‘bad play’ for far too many players in large groups, this could be rectified with only allowing 1-2 players for help up again Also, the 4 times downed in one minute in order to be defeated should also be changed to 2 downs every 30 seconds.

I would win 1v10 vs average and bad players and 1v2-3 vs good players.

What else they need to do is actually make it so that the downstate #2 is actually viable and WORTH using for every class. The amount of times where it has simply not worked for no reason at it – only skills that require a target are a joke.

Either give EVERYONE good downstates or simply remove downstate all together.

Frankly as I know myself downstate will never go anywhere the closest thing I would suggest as a viable way to nerf and balance it would be to remove all abilities except for 1 and 3 and 4. reduce the amount of HP you have by half and remove the perma stability when you are downed. reduce the cast time of stomping to one second and nerf all 2 skills to be as bad as warrior and engi 2 skills (or make them all on par with a guardian/ ranger)

Why?
well downstate should not be powerful enough to hinder or troll an enemy. its made so your team can help you if played right. playing it right right now means res clumping and laughing as you outheal a full zerkers 100blade (just an example of the kittenedness of downstate HP currently)
It would be much more interesting to see downstate as a clutch save that doesnt ever happen but when it does its incredibly well played like a sanctuary or ring of warding res.
those who say but I should be able to do something still…
NO YOU DIED LOL sit there and get stomped you dont have the right to justify a 4-8 seconds window of “trolling” the enemy who killed you while you wait for a zerg to come and pick you up.
edit: also rally mechanics should not work on mobs… only players and for only a single person not the entire 50 man zerg

Leave downstate as it is.

BUT introduce various new skills and fields that interact with downed state.

1) “Death” field aoes, you go down when in one of these fields and you die die, no downed state.

2) “Anti-rally” field aoes, long duration, if you’re downed inside it no rally for you(nice counter to warrior res banner and other res skills as well).

For example.

Caliburn.1845:

Leave downstate as it is.

BUT introduce various new skills and fields that interact with downed state.

1) “Death” field aoes, you go down when in one of these fields and you die die, no downed state.

2) “Anti-rally” field aoes, long duration, if you’re downed inside it no rally for you(nice counter to warrior res banner and other res skills as well).

For example.

I forgot where I posted it but I suggested a while ago a necro variant of warriors warbanner that instagibs downed foes and debuffed those who went down as it was active but I cant find it.

EFWinters.5421:

Whether or not you know how to deal with downed state is a defining factor in how skilled you are at the game. It’s just another layer where skilled players can easily outplay unskilled players, and the fact that you don’t treat it as such makes me think you are a part of category two.

I will agree that rallying off PvE mobs is annoying though.

Dealing with someone you just downed, does not show how skilled you are. It’s more based off

1- how many opponents you are fighting. in a 2v5 fight (which happens often for me) if one person goes down, 2 can continue to fight you while 2 stop to instantly revive someone. It’s a joke. 1 person reviving will beat 1 person stomping. revive speed should be 1/5 of what it is.

2- what class you downed. some class downed abilities are broken compared to others. Thief/mesmer/ele can stop the first initial stomp no matter what, (unless stealth stomp for mesmer)

3- how much stability/stealth you have access to.

Deli.1302:

Downed state isn’t the main problem. The rally mechanic is……

I would agree with that, plus the speed you can mass heal downed player and get them back up, and being able to res fully dead players in combat are the real problems.

Every argumentation against downed state and hard rezzing can be applied to you being outnumbered, in which it gives you great tools to continue fighting.

I’ve lost track of encounters in which I got almost insta-gibbed while being (greatly) outnumbered (even happens to the best of us, don’t be absurd!), then getting banner- or stealth-rezzed to have a comeback with my roaming mates and finally pushing the enemy’s group into defeated by clever gameplay. Also there were some situations in which one or two of your team could tank a big group while I get hard-rezzed by two other allies, thus giving your group a second chance even when beeing outnumbered. (ofc. also applies to my allies and many other players and groups)

You can slow down ressurection from downed state by applying poison; you may use the opportunity to load nukes onto the healers; you can interrupt the healers with CC. Safe rezzing almost always requires to blow at least one high cooldown utility (e.g. stability, invulnerability, group stealth, condition removal, etc) — if not, you sure shouldn’t talk about high quality gameplay…
Rangers’ Sick’em can now also be used to put the “Revealed” effect on a downed player to hard-counter stomp interrupts via stealth.

What you seem to not understand is the fact that downed state reduces the amount of cheesy insta-gib builds / group compositions in small- to mid-scale fights for anything with more than 2 players (1vs1) involved.

Rally-mechanics should be “fixed” (one player rallying from each defeated player), I agree on that. What bothers me, thigh, is: as in almost any “nerf this” or “I don’t want that” topic there is less threading in the discussion but mostly “I cannot have” or “someone stole my candy” without thinking outside of their own little box of expectations and experiences…

Any case where you’re outnumbered it’s far harder for you to res an ally vs if you outnumber. It really doesn’t help smaller groups nearly as much as it does larger ones. The outnumbering side can put more bodies in the way to prevent you from stopping them, will have more cc you to prevent you from stopping them, more people to give stability, res faster with greater numbers, etc. They have far more sustain than your smaller group. That’s how it prevents a smaller, more skilled/coordinated group from chipping away at a much larger one.

Yes putting pois slows it down a bit, but it’s still too fast even with that. It takes far too much damage to counter how much you can heal a downed person even if they are poisoned.

Brode.7689:

Dealing with someone you just downed, does not show how skilled you are. It’s more based off

1- how many opponents you are fighting. in a 2v5 fight (which happens often for me) if one person goes down, 2 can continue to fight you while 2 stop to instantly revive someone. It’s a joke. 1 person reviving will beat 1 person stomping. revive speed should be 1/5 of what it is.

Realistically though, they will have no clue when someone will go down, whereas a coordinated group will know exactly when both an enemy and an ally will go down. In 95% of the 2v5’s I do, we come out on top of either situation.

Brode.7689:

2- what class you downed. some class downed abilities are broken compared to others. Thief/mesmer/ele can stop the first initial stomp no matter what, (unless stealth stomp for mesmer)

I run a guardian / ele duo. The only profession that can survive first stomp for us is an ele.

Brode.7689:

3- how much stability/stealth you have access to.

And any organized group will have more of it.

Aberrant.6749:

It really doesn’t help smaller groups nearly as much as it does larger ones.

You can’t expect to win every outnumbered encounter if your opponents are not afk-ing.
If my / our opponents are clever, experienced or good enough, or just have plain more luck, then so be it. I don’t get why some are expecting to win every 1vs5 and 20vs80 — it may work every once in a while if your opponent lets it happen, but if they get their act together even when individually not too skilled / experienced, then they are offered the same chances you have, just with more people on their side, in which case it is just fair if you cannot beat their group.

The amount of CC and spammability of disabling / limiting conditions is something I think should be reduced (e.g. DR or breaking immobilize on dmg, etc) in a way which favours soft gameplay skills and not only the amount of disabling spells. But in the end we just use the same mechanics, and limiting such abilities would just reduce chances of winning when beeing outnumbered even more.
Imho a change to rally mechanics and maybe even sth. like a logarithmic reduction on HP-gain from each additional healer (more than one) would be nice, but I haven’t thought about benefits and drawbacks of the latter too much yet.

MFWIC.6091:

vincecontix.1264:

WvW would probably be empty if down state was removed. Hardcore, skilled, organized players would be wiping groups 5x+ there number. The bads and pugs would get frustrated getting wiped over and over again and quit wvw. Majority of wvw are casuals and skill less zergers and the removal of the down state would alienate majority of the wvw player base. Though it does sound like it would be fun.

I disagree with you. I think it would encourage pugs to actually bring something to the table and make themselves into more than just a supply mules/wxp farmers. Just because someone is a casual player doesn’t mean they should come to wvw on their pve builds and get rewarded for it simply by attaching themselves to map blob.

Most players would rather just complain things are op rather than try to better themselves. That just the way things are (not exclusive to gw2). When it come to pvp in wvw the amount of clueless people in the wrong gear and builds is astounding. People don’t like to accept the problem is with themselves if they are not having success in the game the game must be broken. So imo it is very unlikely pugs, zergers, less skill players will not try to adapt.

maeggle.6021:

Aberrant.6749:

It really doesn’t help smaller groups nearly as much as it does larger ones.

You can’t expect to win every outnumbered encounter if your opponents are not afk-ing.

I wasn’t saying that at all… nor do I know how you could have thought that I was…

I just don’t like how you get such strong additional benefits on top of already having more people because of the current rev/rally mechanics.

Some DR on additional healers would be a welcome change.

people dont really understand that “strategy” isnt strategy when its 5 guys clumping on one and pressing f before someone can actually stop them. stomp channels are frankly much too slow and need a massive speed increase like 50%

Also people don’t understand that since there is a downed state. It has to have BALANCE.

Right now the #2 and #3 skills are completely unbalanced.

Hopefully there will only be 1 MMO with these mechanics. I’m hoping other studios have the common sense to not add these in their game. Then again it all depends how casual it is. Downstate and rally systems are for casual players.

No hardcore competitive PVP community would tolerate these mechanics.

everyone would play warrior and guardian the… oh wait, they already do :/

If there was no downedstate,i’d sure love this game a whole lot more.I think downed state is one of the worst mechanics ive seen in an mmo so far,it kills the fun of trying to fight a bigger group than yours.It’s far to forgiving,and lots of classes win through the downed system…Engies im looking at you.Most people wont even bother with a 1 on 3 knowing the downed system will mess it up most of the times.I do see the potential of downed state…for PVE,not for pvp or wvw.WHen people are winning through the downed system,or getting up by hitting a mob while being downed,getting rezed faster then youre able to even finish them…its just bleugh and kitten frustrating as hell knowing you had Won the fight but they won because they rezzed twice by their buddies while you were unable to finish them off “No more stabi,invulnerability’s etc etc”

Caedmon.6798:

lots of classes win through the downed system…Engies im looking at you

Not sure if trying to say eng has a good downed state or that engs can take advantage of another person already downed…

Aberrant.6749:

Caedmon.6798:

lots of classes win through the downed system…Engies im looking at you

Not sure if trying to say eng has a good downed state or that engs can take advantage of another person already downed…

Both ways tbh,they blast you away from the downed enemy,usually because when having fought my stabi is on cd at that time speaking as a warr.Or eitherway when they are downed they get up themselves instantly by using Elixer R i believe.Anyway my post wasnt a complaint about engies,its just a general complaint about the entire downed system in itself regardless of engies.

Eng is among the bottom 3 downed states… if not the worst. The single target pull (#2) is a projectile and very easily countered and cc’s for the shortest period of time. #3 is an aoe knockback and blast finisher (‘cause that’s useful when you’re downed) and does decent damage but it’s otherwise just on par with guards #2 but on a cooldown that’s too long and you’ll rarely get to use it due to the rubbish that is #2.

Elixir R isn’t what it used to be… not by a longshot ->http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Toss_Elixir_R. The utility skill used to be a stunbreak as well as and endurance recover, but that got nuked→ http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elixir_R It’s really not worth taking anymore.

I agree that the knockbacks/aoe on eng are nice though ^^

I don’t have a problem with the downed state itself, just the redic healing you can do while ressing downed and the ressing from defeated (makes chipping away at a larger force nearly impossible).

Aberrant.6749:

Eng is among the bottom 3 downed states… if not the worst. The single target pull (#2) is a projectile and very easily countered and cc’s for the shortest period of time. #3 is an aoe knockback and blast finisher (‘cause that’s useful when you’re downed) and does decent damage but it’s otherwise just on par with guards #2 but on a cooldown that’s too long and you’ll rarely get to use it due to the rubbish that is #2.

Elixir R isn’t what it used to be… not by a longshot ->http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Toss_Elixir_R. The utility skill used to be a stunbreak as well as and endurance recover, but that got nuked-> http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elixir_R It’s really not worth taking anymore.

I agree that the knockbacks/aoe on eng are nice though ^^

I don’t have a problem with the downed state itself, just the redic healing you can do while ressing downed and the ressing from defeated (makes chipping away at a larger force nearly impossible).

i think this person would disagree lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrKg_TSP47E