Guild Wars 2

EDIT ‘internal cool down,’ or max number of times a cc ability can CC, on CC abilities, That was the term I was looking for. Probably much better/easier than limiting the number of stab stacks you can lose.

Being able to strip 25 stacks of stab in half a sec shouldn’t be possible. Give even 1/2 to 1/4th a sec of immunity or something to were you hold on to your stability after losing 1 (so you could still lose 2-4 stab a sec, but at least you’d be immune to cc for a bit rather than having none at all currently in zerg). Shouldn’t affect PvP much at all but make melee in WvW viable again.

How about just revert the stab change?

runeblade.7514:

How about just revert the stab change?

because overall it WAS needed, especially in sPvP. For instance on a ~20sec cd a thief could steal a 20s stab boon. Or a mesmer could shatter it off w/e when someone used a 180sec elite skill. It was BS. It only really worked well in WvW zergs. Any smaller scale and it was really poor (including wvw roaming) the way it worked.

We just need a slight tweak now for large scale.

Why you need to run every possible cc in battlefield?

Mightybird.6034:

runeblade.7514:

How about just revert the stab change?

because overall it WAS needed, especially in sPvP. For instance on a ~20sec cd a thief could steal a 20s stab boon. Or a mesmer could shatter it off w/e when someone used a 180sec elite skill. It was BS. It only really worked well in WvW zergs. Any smaller scale and it was really poor (including wvw roaming) the way it worked.

We just need a slight tweak now for large scale.

Not really. ANet could just make the stability pulsing instead of making a 20 sec long stability without any of this stab change nonsense.

Its kind of good to have it like this though it lets smaller group cc down bigger groups (mindless zergs). If you run though aoe you should be punish.

runeblade.7514:

Not really. ANet could just make the stability pulsing instead of making a 20 sec long stability without any of this stab change nonsense.

Then there would be unstoppable ability in the game that have a stab that you cant strip or steal.

The zerglings have sensed a distaste in their zerg. It has the zergmind confused and angered.

Mightybird.6034:

being able to strip 25 stacks of stab in half a sec shouldn’t be possible.
.

Are you sure you aren’t running into a null field or well of corruption?

Although, if you are instead running into more than 25 Hammerstun/static field/spectral wall/line of warding… At the same time, you probably do deserve to be stunned. Commanders will adjust tactics.

Jski.6180:

Its kind of good to have it like this though it lets smaller group cc down bigger groups (mindless zergs). If you run though aoe you should be punish.

What actually happens: Bigger mindless zergs mow down smaller groups because stability is useless in the storm of CC.

runeblade.7514:

Not really. ANet could just make the stability pulsing instead of making a 20 sec long stability without any of this stab change nonsense.

Then there would be unstoppable ability in the game that have a stab that you cant strip or steal.

Yeah, that’s the point of Elite transforms with high cooldowns.

The problem in the current system is very simple.

Stability in the old system was unlimited CC immunity for duration that was stacked. This meant that ground based AOE CCs that had unlimited CC potential for their duration were fine. Stability in the new system has limited CC removal for it’s duration, however many ground based AOE CC continue to have unlimited CC potential.

The solution, then, is to be consistent in changes and give these GTAOE CC’s (Line of Warding, Ring of Warding, Unsteady Earth, Static Field, Spectral Wall and any others) limited number of times they interrupt users. If a stability charge is expended, or a person gets CC’d, then the field is weakened until all remaining charges are used and it expires. With the current stability numbers, I would say the standard 5 is perfect before expiring.

However chances are that this is fairly complex and well if things are hard to do then Anet doesn’t do them.

Mightybird.6034:

runeblade.7514:

How about just revert the stab change?

because overall it WAS needed, especially in sPvP. For instance on a ~20sec cd a thief could steal a 20s stab boon. Or a mesmer could shatter it off w/e when someone used a 180sec elite skill. It was BS. It only really worked well in WvW zergs. Any smaller scale and it was really poor (including wvw roaming) the way it worked.

We just need a slight tweak now for large scale.

I was under the impression it was changed for WvW, not sPvP. Like how it let a zerg bypass dozens of CC zones like they were nothing, so now a single stack doesn’t cut it anymore and a defending zerg can indeed use Static Fields, pulls, and fears to push opposing zergs back. The change wasn’t necessarily needed in sPvP because ANet could’ve just gone an easier way and given the elites a 3-Second Stability every 3 seconds. At least, that’s what I’ve been hearing.

Kodiak.3281:

The problem in the current system is very simple.

Stability in the old system was unlimited CC immunity for duration that was stacked. This meant that ground based AOE CCs that had unlimited CC potential for their duration were fine. Stability in the new system has limited CC removal for it’s duration, however many ground based AOE CC continue to have unlimited CC potential.

The solution, then, is to be consistent in changes and give these GTAOE CC’s (Line of Warding, Ring of Warding, Unsteady Earth, Static Field, Spectral Wall and any others) limited number of times they interrupt users. If a stability charge is expended, or a person gets CC’d, then the field is weakened until all remaining charges are used and it expires. With the current stability numbers, I would say the standard 5 is perfect before expiring.

However chances are that this is fairly complex and well if things are hard to do then Anet doesn’t do them.

Wouldn’t the better solution be not running back and forth through those unlimited CC fields? If you have a standard three stacks of stability, you can pass through a Unsteady Earth or Static Field and have some left. If CC fields were stacked, I see no reason a zerg shouldn’t be punished for all charging through multiple AoE fields. Why should the AoE be punished for the idiocy of their victim? That’s like suing a volcano for burning people who thought lava-surfing was a thing.

Stab in the dark, most people complaining are Warriors and Guardians?

Dondagora.9645:

Kodiak.3281:

The problem in the current system is very simple.

Stability in the old system was unlimited CC immunity for duration that was stacked. This meant that ground based AOE CCs that had unlimited CC potential for their duration were fine. Stability in the new system has limited CC removal for it’s duration, however many ground based AOE CC continue to have unlimited CC potential.

The solution, then, is to be consistent in changes and give these GTAOE CC’s (Line of Warding, Ring of Warding, Unsteady Earth, Static Field, Spectral Wall and any others) limited number of times they interrupt users. If a stability charge is expended, or a person gets CC’d, then the field is weakened until all remaining charges are used and it expires. With the current stability numbers, I would say the standard 5 is perfect before expiring.

However chances are that this is fairly complex and well if things are hard to do then Anet doesn’t do them.

Wouldn’t the better solution be not running back and forth through those unlimited CC fields? If you have a standard three stacks of stability, you can pass through a Unsteady Earth or Static Field and have some left. If CC fields were stacked, I see no reason a zerg shouldn’t be punished for all charging through multiple AoE fields. Why should the AoE be punished for the idiocy of their victim? That’s like suing a volcano for burning people who thought lava-surfing was a thing.

A better solution is to play the pirate ship meta.

Dondagora.9645:

Wouldn’t the better solution be not running back and forth through those unlimited CC fields? If you have a standard three stacks of stability, you can pass through a Unsteady Earth or Static Field and have some left. If CC fields were stacked, I see no reason a zerg shouldn’t be punished for all charging through multiple AoE fields. Why should the AoE be punished for the idiocy of their victim? That’s like suing a volcano for burning people who thought lava-surfing was a thing.

I’m glad you brought that up.

For one, the simplest answer is you can’t. When you are running a large scale WvW group it’s pretty much impossible not to have CC’s dumped right on top of your head. This is because of a variety of reasons. First one is many CC’s can be cast “behind” you without having to face that direction. For example lets say you are a Guardian with people chasing you, all you have to do is zoom the camera out (even easier now) and cast Line of Warding behind your character as you run forward. This can cause it to pop up literally right infront of your persuers with little to no chance to turn or avoid the wall. The second, more common occurrence is when one group is pushing into another CC’s will appear right on top of you as you move giving you no chance to react or turn away.

Now the common response to that is to encourage the tried and true tactic of “baiting” out the CC. Bait the CC, pop stability and push through any CC left. However any savvy commander at this stage is well aware of baiting and fake pushes to bait cool downs such as high burst spike moves (Necro Wells) and long recast CCs. Most quality commanders will wait till the enemy side has fully committed and then dump Spike (followed by CC’s after Stability wore off). In the new meta it’s reversed and commanders call for CC first still Stability is gone and the enemy force is stuck (because Stability is so easy to remove) and then follow up with the Spike.

Now a response to that might be, “Well…stop blobbing!” except you see people can’t stop blobbing. Blobbing is like a nuclear deterrent. If one side runs around in smaller groups they will just get squashed by the larger enemy side Blob. The only thing that gives a Blob pause is another Blob (or an entrenched location with lots of siege). Unfortunately with the new Stability changes and the strength of CC, Blobs no longer have to fear each other as the first Blob to commit charging into the other Blob will typically lose. Thus you get the “Pirate Ship” meta where both Blobs blast each other but nothing is really decided.

It’s all very boring because no side can really finish the other off because they can’t commit to finishing them off because they won’t get through the enemy CC. Thus the solution is simple: Limit CC’s that have unlimited CC potential. I’m not saying nerf all CCs, only the CC’s with unlimited CC potential.

runeblade.7514:

Jski.6180:

Its kind of good to have it like this though it lets smaller group cc down bigger groups (mindless zergs). If you run though aoe you should be punish.

What actually happens: Bigger mindless zergs mow down smaller groups because stability is useless in the storm of CC.

runeblade.7514:

Not really. ANet could just make the stability pulsing instead of making a 20 sec long stability without any of this stab change nonsense.

Then there would be unstoppable ability in the game that have a stab that you cant strip or steal.

Yeah, that’s the point of Elite transforms with high cooldowns.

That the thing that not how the hard cc works that most ppl are talking about. Lined cc needs ppl to run into it unless you get behind them and they run to you the bigger zerg not going to be able to land most of there hard cc on you effectively. The line hard cc is best see as a retreating trick this is why it works far better at countering zergs then smashing small groups.

The best way to counter bigger groups of ppl is putting in strong bomb or attk in one places but in gw2 you can only hit 5 targets most of the time. Lines get past this rule letting you put down your big bomb that can truly stop a zerg in its tracks.

Now target hard cc IS better at attking so its stronger at smashing small groups but worst at dealing with big zergs. Back to the 5 target being the main reason.

Terrahero.9358:

Stab in the dark, most people complaining are Warriors and Guardians?

I actually have all classes at 80 but Elementalist is my main and I seem to be playing my Ranger as a close secondary. I actually benefit the most out of Pirate Ship and all the huge CC changes because everything I do now is relevant. Huge ranged AOE. Huge ranged AOE support. Huge ranged CC. One of the best Stability skills (10 charges).

However I also can see an unbalanced system when there is one and not be biased because my class benefits the most.

Jski.6180:

runeblade.7514:

Jski.6180:

Its kind of good to have it like this though it lets smaller group cc down bigger groups (mindless zergs). If you run though aoe you should be punish.

What actually happens: Bigger mindless zergs mow down smaller groups because stability is useless in the storm of CC.

runeblade.7514:

Not really. ANet could just make the stability pulsing instead of making a 20 sec long stability without any of this stab change nonsense.

Then there would be unstoppable ability in the game that have a stab that you cant strip or steal.

Yeah, that’s the point of Elite transforms with high cooldowns.

That the thing that not how the hard cc works that most ppl are talking about. Lined cc needs ppl to run into it unless you get behind them and they run to you the bigger zerg not going to be able to land most of there hard cc on you effectively. The line hard cc is best see as a retreating trick this is why it works far better at countering zergs then smashing small groups.

The best way to counter bigger groups of ppl is putting in strong bomb or attk in one places but in gw2 you can only hit 5 targets most of the time. Lines get past this rule letting you put down your big bomb that can truly stop a zerg in its tracks.

Now target hard cc IS better at attking so its stronger at smashing small groups but worst at dealing with big zergs. Back to the 5 target being the main reason.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

Why don’t you stream a GvG to show us what you are talking about.

Kodiak.3281:

Terrahero.9358:

Stab in the dark, most people complaining are Warriors and Guardians?

I actually have all classes at 80 but Elementalist is my main and I seem to be playing my Ranger as a close secondary. I actually benefit the most out of Pirate Ship and all the huge CC changes because everything I do now is relevant. Huge ranged AOE. Huge ranged AOE support. Huge ranged CC. One of the best Stability skills (10 charges).

However I also can see an unbalanced system when there is one and not be biased because my class benefits the most.

The previous system wasnt any more balanced. Where do you think these crazy high stacks of Guardians came from? Or why Warriors were so popular? Because they could pretty much go full CC immune for the duration of a fight, with enough boons stacked and condition removal that boon stripping and soft CCs did very little.

How was that fair? Professions who relied on CCs as a form of defense couldn’t do anything, they were en masse neutered by ridiculous Stability stacking.
One skill no longer grants an infinite protection against CC, just a very high protection.

When the arguments were made against Warriors and Guardians CC, their aoe stuns, knockbacks and wards it was a “learn 2 play” issue. Even if you had a profession with little, or no, stability.
And now that these two professions are no longer wading through these CCs with impunity suddenly it’s a problem. That seems disingenuous to say the least.

runeblade.7514:

Jski.6180:

runeblade.7514:

Jski.6180:

Its kind of good to have it like this though it lets smaller group cc down bigger groups (mindless zergs). If you run though aoe you should be punish.

What actually happens: Bigger mindless zergs mow down smaller groups because stability is useless in the storm of CC.

runeblade.7514:

Not really. ANet could just make the stability pulsing instead of making a 20 sec long stability without any of this stab change nonsense.

Then there would be unstoppable ability in the game that have a stab that you cant strip or steal.

Yeah, that’s the point of Elite transforms with high cooldowns.

That the thing that not how the hard cc works that most ppl are talking about. Lined cc needs ppl to run into it unless you get behind them and they run to you the bigger zerg not going to be able to land most of there hard cc on you effectively. The line hard cc is best see as a retreating trick this is why it works far better at countering zergs then smashing small groups.

The best way to counter bigger groups of ppl is putting in strong bomb or attk in one places but in gw2 you can only hit 5 targets most of the time. Lines get past this rule letting you put down your big bomb that can truly stop a zerg in its tracks.

Now target hard cc IS better at attking so its stronger at smashing small groups but worst at dealing with big zergs. Back to the 5 target being the main reason.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

Why don’t you stream a GvG to show us what you are talking about.

Wait do you mean a GvG that one side is greatly out numbered? I guess you could call that a gvg though i think that more of a zerg vs a group of ppl smaller then the zerg.

Kodiak.3281:

Dondagora.9645:

Wouldn’t the better solution be not running back and forth through those unlimited CC fields? If you have a standard three stacks of stability, you can pass through a Unsteady Earth or Static Field and have some left. If CC fields were stacked, I see no reason a zerg shouldn’t be punished for all charging through multiple AoE fields. Why should the AoE be punished for the idiocy of their victim? That’s like suing a volcano for burning people who thought lava-surfing was a thing.

I’m glad you brought that up.

For one, the simplest answer is you can’t. When you are running a large scale WvW group it’s pretty much impossible not to have CC’s dumped right on top of your head. This is because of a variety of reasons. First one is many CC’s can be cast “behind” you without having to face that direction. For example lets say you are a Guardian with people chasing you, all you have to do is zoom the camera out (even easier now) and cast Line of Warding behind your character as you run forward. This can cause it to pop up literally right infront of your persuers with little to no chance to turn or avoid the wall. The second, more common occurrence is when one group is pushing into another CC’s will appear right on top of you as you move giving you no chance to react or turn away.

Now the common response to that is to encourage the tried and true tactic of “baiting” out the CC. Bait the CC, pop stability and push through any CC left. However any savvy commander at this stage is well aware of baiting and fake pushes to bait cool downs such as high burst spike moves (Necro Wells) and long recast CCs. Most quality commanders will wait till the enemy side has fully committed and then dump Spike (followed by CC’s after Stability wore off). In the new meta it’s reversed and commanders call for CC first still Stability is gone and the enemy force is stuck (because Stability is so easy to remove) and then follow up with the Spike.

Now a response to that might be, “Well…stop blobbing!” except you see people can’t stop blobbing. Blobbing is like a nuclear deterrent. If one side runs around in smaller groups they will just get squashed by the larger enemy side Blob. The only thing that gives a Blob pause is another Blob (or an entrenched location with lots of siege). Unfortunately with the new Stability changes and the strength of CC, Blobs no longer have to fear each other as the first Blob to commit charging into the other Blob will typically lose. Thus you get the “Pirate Ship” meta where both Blobs blast each other but nothing is really decided.

It’s all very boring because no side can really finish the other off because they can’t commit to finishing them off because they won’t get through the enemy CC. Thus the solution is simple: Limit CC’s that have unlimited CC potential. I’m not saying nerf all CCs, only the CC’s with unlimited CC potential.

I’m not saying avoid it all together. Your complain seems to be that a Line of Warding has unlimited CC potential. I’m thinking “Why does that matter if you’re only passing through it once?” because, in this case, if you have a stack of stability you’re good to go through it. It shouldn’t matter how much potential it has so long as you aren’t running back through it again. So, yes, while the Pirate Ship meta is strengthened, the Melee Train meta will still be there, but it’ll have to commit a lot of stability to piercing through a wall of CC instead of just "lol"ing at Static Fields and Warding by stacking everyone and throwing in stability.

So, I say, let the meta change, whether that be Pirate Ship or a new tactic for Melee Train. After all, it’s not like it’s meant to be easy or simple, right?

Terrahero.9358:

The previous system wasnt any more balanced. Where do you think these crazy high stacks of Guardians came from? Or why Warriors were so popular? Because they could pretty much go full CC immune for the duration of a fight, with enough boons stacked and condition removal that boon stripping and soft CCs did very little.

How was that fair? Professions who relied on CCs as a form of defense couldn’t do anything, they were en masse neutered by ridiculous Stability stacking.
One skill no longer grants an infinite protection against CC, just a very high protection.

When the arguments were made against Warriors and Guardians CC, their aoe stuns, knockbacks and wards it was a “learn 2 play” issue. Even if you had a profession with little, or no, stability.
And now that these two professions are no longer wading through these CCs with impunity suddenly it’s a problem. That seems disingenuous to say the least.

Guardians are popular because they excel at just about every element of the game and bring a lot to the table. They’re strong, tanky group support with pretty decent damage potential. Warriors were popular after the Hammer train meta died because of Banner resses and natural tankiness. However no amount of natural tankiness is going to help you survive while CC’d all the time. Stability was the only thing that allowed a melee front line to function and having it stripped off so easily due to a colossal amount of CC makes it no longer functional.

In large scale PvP, no one relies on CC for defense. At best you’re talking about 1v1 scenarios where they relied on CC’s for defense, still do, and they still are negated by Stability. To be very clear the problem isn’t one line of Warding or one Static Field, it’s when you have a Blob of guys doing their CC moves and all of them are spamming these down capable of removing 10+ stacks in a few seconds.

The only thing “disingenuous” here is how people seem to want to have limited stacks of stability, limited targets on GTAOE’s and other AOE abilities but not have limits on GTAOE CC abilities as well.

Dondagora.9645:

I’m not saying avoid it all together. Your complain seems to be that a Line of Warding has unlimited CC potential. I’m thinking “Why does that matter if you’re only passing through it once?” because, in this case, if you have a stack of stability you’re good to go through it. It shouldn’t matter how much potential it has so long as you aren’t running back through it again. So, yes, while the Pirate Ship meta is strengthened, the Melee Train meta will still be there, but it’ll have to commit a lot of stability to piercing through a wall of CC instead of just "lol"ing at Static Fields and Warding by stacking everyone and throwing in stability.

So, I say, let the meta change, whether that be Pirate Ship or a new tactic for Melee Train. After all, it’s not like it’s meant to be easy or simple, right?

It matters because, and only because, we’re not talking about a single Line of Warding, a single Static Field, or a single any other form of unlimited CC. It matters because when you are talking about a blob, you are talking about a large amount of available CC available to that blob. It isn’t 1 line of warding removing 1 stability from 40 people it’s 3 lines of warding, 4 static fields and 2 Spectral Walls removing 9 stacks of Stability off of 40 people (and that’s only 9 people’s worth of CC out of say 40 vs 40).

Remember also with the Expansion and the new WvW map that choke points and other limited avenues of travel are going to be even more common. That’s less scenarios where you can avoid those huge stacks of CC because you will be funneled into poor scenarios at best.

All I’m looking for is consistency. Everything else in the game is capped at 5 targets. Most AOE’s are capped. Most abilities are capped. Most heals are capped. Stability is now capped on max charges. I’ve yet to read a single reason why having these GTAOE CC’s that can affect an unlimited number of targets would be a bad thing or inconsistent with the rest of the game.

Kodiak.3281:

All I’m looking for is consistency. Everything else in the game is capped at 5 targets. Most AOE’s are capped. Most abilities are capped. Most heals are capped. Stability is now capped on max charges. I’ve yet to read a single reason why having these GTAOE CC’s that can affect an unlimited number of targets would be a bad thing or inconsistent with the rest of the game.

Not “everything else.” There is a lot of inconsistency with target caps. Reflect abilities have as much potential for their effectiveness, for example. It makes those skills more powerful against larger groups. It makes me wonder if that Revenant skill that grants Stability they showed on Points of Interest will be like Veil.

Nokaru.7831:

Not “everything else.” There is a lot of inconsistency with target caps. Reflect abilities have as much potential for their effectiveness, for example. It makes those skills more powerful against larger groups. It makes me wonder if that Revenant skill that grants Stability they showed on Points of Interest will be like Veil.

Reflects are certainly their own animal but largely not what I am talking about. While many do cover an AOE radius, they don’t necessarily have an AOE effect to them simply a what gets thrown in gets thrown back out. Even then I don’t necessarily see the issue with capping maximum projectiles reflected as well but that really doesn’t matter much to the stability discussion going on.

Kodiak.3281:

Dondagora.9645:

I’m not saying avoid it all together. Your complain seems to be that a Line of Warding has unlimited CC potential. I’m thinking “Why does that matter if you’re only passing through it once?” because, in this case, if you have a stack of stability you’re good to go through it. It shouldn’t matter how much potential it has so long as you aren’t running back through it again. So, yes, while the Pirate Ship meta is strengthened, the Melee Train meta will still be there, but it’ll have to commit a lot of stability to piercing through a wall of CC instead of just "lol"ing at Static Fields and Warding by stacking everyone and throwing in stability.

So, I say, let the meta change, whether that be Pirate Ship or a new tactic for Melee Train. After all, it’s not like it’s meant to be easy or simple, right?

It matters because, and only because, we’re not talking about a single Line of Warding, a single Static Field, or a single any other form of unlimited CC. It matters because when you are talking about a blob, you are talking about a large amount of available CC available to that blob. It isn’t 1 line of warding removing 1 stability from 40 people it’s 3 lines of warding, 4 static fields and 2 Spectral Walls removing 9 stacks of Stability off of 40 people (and that’s only 9 people’s worth of CC out of say 40 vs 40).

Remember also with the Expansion and the new WvW map that choke points and other limited avenues of travel are going to be even more common. That’s less scenarios where you can avoid those huge stacks of CC because you will be funneled into poor scenarios at best.

All I’m looking for is consistency. Everything else in the game is capped at 5 targets. Most AOE’s are capped. Most abilities are capped. Most heals are capped. Stability is now capped on max charges. I’ve yet to read a single reason why having these GTAOE CC’s that can affect an unlimited number of targets would be a bad thing or inconsistent with the rest of the game.

If your argument looks for consistency, that’s fine. However, if every single one of the 40 person zerg decides to run through the AoE, isn’t that enough to deserve them of being CC’ed? Not to mention that it isn’t 9 people’s worth of stability being stripped. It’s 9 skills worth of stability being stripped. And sure, maybe not everyone can get through it immediately? Well, isn’t that what crowd control is about? To prevent crowds from running about uncontrolled? In the end, this is ANet saying “To prevent crowds[zergs], we need better crowd control, but keeping Crowd Control counter-able by non-crowds[smaller groups].”

As for your argument of consistency, we can put CC AoE into its own category, just as AoE and Cleave are different from each other. Cleave, another kind of AoE if you will, usually has a cap of 3 targets[Most commonly our Auto-Attacks]. AoE that damages has a usual cap of 5 targets. Control AoE, thus, will have an unlimited cap, or else it wouldn’t really be a CC[crowd control], and thus it is consistent in that all CC AoE has no cap.

Separately, the reason for my opinion on the matter:
Basically, Crowd Control[Control] is the new counter to Zergs[Damage], Stability from Support-focused builds and professions can make CC less controlling. I’m in full support of the stability change as it’s creating a better balance in the trinity[CC, DPS, Support] that ANet set for themselves, and I believe that the meta will adapt to incorporate it and counter it appropriately. Given time, of course. No change is without a learning curve.

Reverting the change would be best, but this solution would go some way to fixing the problem. I think it should be maybe 2 seconds though, not just a half second.

The problem right now is that unorganized blobs can just spam a bunch of CC, and more organized guild groups which used to be able to take them on now cannot. Better, smaller, groups should be able to take on unorganized blobs. Skill should be rewarded, but the stability change makes it so a big group will always win because smaller groups can’t push against them.

Jski.6180:

runeblade.7514:

Jski.6180:

runeblade.7514:

Jski.6180:

Its kind of good to have it like this though it lets smaller group cc down bigger groups (mindless zergs). If you run though aoe you should be punish.

What actually happens: Bigger mindless zergs mow down smaller groups because stability is useless in the storm of CC.

runeblade.7514:

Not really. ANet could just make the stability pulsing instead of making a 20 sec long stability without any of this stab change nonsense.

Then there would be unstoppable ability in the game that have a stab that you cant strip or steal.

Yeah, that’s the point of Elite transforms with high cooldowns.

That the thing that not how the hard cc works that most ppl are talking about. Lined cc needs ppl to run into it unless you get behind them and they run to you the bigger zerg not going to be able to land most of there hard cc on you effectively. The line hard cc is best see as a retreating trick this is why it works far better at countering zergs then smashing small groups.

The best way to counter bigger groups of ppl is putting in strong bomb or attk in one places but in gw2 you can only hit 5 targets most of the time. Lines get past this rule letting you put down your big bomb that can truly stop a zerg in its tracks.

Now target hard cc IS better at attking so its stronger at smashing small groups but worst at dealing with big zergs. Back to the 5 target being the main reason.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

Why don’t you stream a GvG to show us what you are talking about.

Wait do you mean a GvG that one side is greatly out numbered? I guess you could call that a gvg though i think that more of a zerg vs a group of ppl smaller then the zerg.

So, are you going to release a GvG or a zerg busting video or is everything you are saying bull?

I said GvG, because I know you wouldn’t release a video of you getting mowed over.

Dondagora.9645:

If your argument looks for consistency, that’s fine. However, if every single one of the 40 person zerg decides to run through the AoE, isn’t that enough to deserve them of being CC’ed? Not to mention that it isn’t 9 people’s worth of stability being stripped. It’s 9 skills worth of stability being stripped. And sure, maybe not everyone can get through it immediately? Well, isn’t that what crowd control is about? To prevent crowds from running about uncontrolled? In the end, this is ANet saying “To prevent crowds[zergs], we need better crowd control, but keeping Crowd Control counter-able by non-crowds[smaller groups].”

No one “decides” to run through AOE CC. It’s dropped down on their heads. It’s not like, “Oh well look at that fancy static wall cage 20 ft infront of me, I think I’m going to go bathe in all it’s glory and what do I care with all my Stability hah hah hah…” You move as a coordinated group and go in for the attack only to suddenly find yourself in the middle of a bunch of Lines of Wardings and Statics they dropped literally on top of your heads.

Yes, the purpose of CC is in fact to do CC. However isn’t the purpose of stability to prevent you from being CC’d for it’s duration? If you are going to limit the ability for Stability to work, shouldn’t you also limit the ability of those CC’s to also work? Point → Counter point. Again it’s about consistency.

The problem with your argument and everyone else’s argument that the changes prevent blobs (or “crowds”) is that it’s misinformed. It literally does the exact opposite. It encourages blobs and zerging (or “crowds”), not prevent it. It discourages smaller groups trying to take on larger groups because the smaller groups get stuck in the larger group’s more numerous unlimited CC effects leaving them controlled and vulnerable to the larger group’s AOE damage.

The hard truth is that these changes were most likely done in an effort to slow the pace of WvW action down in an effort to encourage more defensive battles like they’ve been promising for a while instead of just trading objectives. Stability offered blitzkrieg style attacks where while stability lasted you could get in and push and attempt to burst down your opponent and push the battle in your favor. With these new changes to stability, it’s very easy for one side to simply out control the other (again due to abilities with unlimited CC) keeping them at a distance.

The problem with distance PvP is it’s paint-drying boring. Very few classes can get enough ranged burst damage to fully down someone and even if they did it’s far too easy to ress. Honestly where the meta will end up going is basically arrow cart/ballista battles where two sides meet, each drop siege, and it’s whomever out sieges the other side down fast enough that you can survive a push through them.

Kodiak.3281:

Yes, the purpose of CC is in fact to do CC. However isn’t the purpose of stability to prevent you from being CC’d for it’s duration? If you are going to limit the ability for Stability to work, shouldn’t you also limit the ability of those CC’s to also work? Point -> Counter point. Again it’s about consistency.

This is no consistency. CC is one thing, Stability is the another. They’re related, but to change them so things will quite literally be the same as they were before the change would to be nothing. ANet found CC was lacking and found Stability to be the main issue as it over-countered CC to the point of being null and useless in most cases.

To your point, it may now be the opposite in which CC is, in most cases in ZvZ, nullifying stability a bit too much to the point of being null. Reverting the change, however, is not the solution but simply replacing the new problem with the old problem. The immunity solution proposed is a start, but begins crippling things on a smaller scale than zergs. Your own solution is better, but cripples the purpose of CC in the first place. My own suggestion might be just some number tweaking. Increasing certain skills stability stacks and durations. This gives more room for balance between Control and Support and also seems easier for ANet to do.

Dondagora.9645:

Kodiak.3281:

The problem in the current system is very simple.

Stability in the old system was unlimited CC immunity for duration that was stacked. This meant that ground based AOE CCs that had unlimited CC potential for their duration were fine. Stability in the new system has limited CC removal for it’s duration, however many ground based AOE CC continue to have unlimited CC potential.

The solution, then, is to be consistent in changes and give these GTAOE CC’s (Line of Warding, Ring of Warding, Unsteady Earth, Static Field, Spectral Wall and any others) limited number of times they interrupt users. If a stability charge is expended, or a person gets CC’d, then the field is weakened until all remaining charges are used and it expires. With the current stability numbers, I would say the standard 5 is perfect before expiring.

However chances are that this is fairly complex and well if things are hard to do then Anet doesn’t do them.

Wouldn’t the better solution be not running back and forth through those unlimited CC fields? If you have a standard three stacks of stability, you can pass through a Unsteady Earth or Static Field and have some left. If CC fields were stacked, I see no reason a zerg shouldn’t be punished for all charging through multiple AoE fields. Why should the AoE be punished for the idiocy of their victim? That’s like suing a volcano for burning people who thought lava-surfing was a thing.

Mesmer has never had stability as an option. They’ve gotten by fine engaging an enemy without it in the very way you’re talking about :p

Slick. Shoes.

I like new stab changes, but you gotta clean up some of these skills. Losing like 2-3 stacks of stability going through the oil slick once is a problem.

Slick shoes new meta, gg gvg scene.

Kokurai.7258:

Slick. Shoes.

I like new stab changes, but you gotta clean up some of these skills. Losing like 2-3 stacks of stability going through the oil slick once is a problem.

Slick shoes new meta, gg gvg scene.

Lol, 1 slick shoes to shut down an entire zerg.

Kodiak.3281:

The only thing “disingenuous” here is how people seem to want to have limited stacks of stability, limited targets on GTAOE’s and other AOE abilities but not have limits on GTAOE CC abilities as well.

Hardly. I’ve wanted to get stuff like LoW and Static Field get a cap for years now, this is not a new discussion at all. But for the longest time it was not an issue, l2p, etc etc Because it didn’t bother the Warriors or the Guardians, who made up the majority of the zerg and had more stability than any other professions.

That is the attitude that bothers me in these threads. All this CC spam has been a thorn in the side of most professions and builds for the longest time. But now suddenly we can agree it’s a problem?
And even then a lot of people in these discussions have been trying their best to not mention Warriors or Guardian CC.

While on the subject of limiting procs to a short internal cooldown to avoid crazy extremes, when is Retaliation finally getting an icd? Or do we have to wait untill that bothers the Hammer Bros before we’re finally ready to admit that is a problem?

Finally Engi get feared in zergs, no god mode stability, i like the Changes now CC counts more, no brainless melee zerging pressing #1 staff.

“oh noes this affect my hammer train, now ill need to adapt but i woooont”

Haralin.1473:

Finally Engi get feared in zergs, no god mode stability, i like the Changes now CC counts more, no brainless melee zerging pressing #1 staff.

Instead you have ranged zerging pressing #1 staff on Necros and Eles cause no one can push anymore.

Offair.2563:

“oh noes this affect my hammer train, now ill need to adapt but i woooont”

Please enlighten us all with how you adapt to a larger group dumping CC’s on your head far more than you could ever stack stability?

You can’t not run into it, they’re on your head.
You can’t stack up to avoid max targets, they have unlimited targets.
You can’t be coordinated and rush around, because again CC’s on your head.

The only options with the amount of CC now is to stay range and blob attack back or build Siege equipment. That’s it. Those are your two choices. It’s unbelievably boring and stale.

I suppose some tanky types with healers watching out for them could step forward and deliberately bait many types of CC, saturate their stability, get CC’d, attacked, healed, killed and then rezed as their side sweeps in.

Would be funny for healing to actually be a thing, finally.

Nike.2631:

I suppose some tanky types with healers watching out for them could step forward and deliberately bait many types of CC, saturate their stability, get CC’d, attacked, healed, killed and then rezed as their side sweeps in.

Would be funny for healing to actually be a thing, finally.

The tanky types already were pushing the front lines. That was the whole Alutristic Healing Guardian frontline pusher with over 3k Armor and 20k HP and lots of Boon Share amongst each other in frontline groups. They’re having problems because soon as you’re CC’d you’re sitting in many people’s AOE.

Healing isn’t viable because there’s no amount of healing in the game that will counter or even mitigate the amount of damage available in game. The numbers just aren’t there even blasting Water fields. Largely this is because +Healing is garbage because it’s been overly nerfed in SPvP which translated to nerfs in the rest of the game as well.

At most you’re looking at a few seconds of Block on Guardian/Warrior, but that’s enough to get by but not enough to really push a line (and it’s still stopped by ground CCs once Stability is gone).

‘internal cool down,’ That was the term I was looking for. Probably much better/easier than limiting the number of stab stacks you can lose.

Also please listen to Kodiak. He has put it better than I.

PS lol I main ele

Kodiak.3281:

Offair.2563:

“oh noes this affect my hammer train, now ill need to adapt but i woooont”

Please enlighten us all with how you adapt to a larger group dumping CC’s on your head far more than you could ever stack stability?

You can’t not run into it, they’re on your head.
You can’t stack up to avoid max targets, they have unlimited targets.
You can’t be coordinated and rush around, because again CC’s on your head.

The only options with the amount of CC now is to stay range and blob attack back or build Siege equipment. That’s it. Those are your two choices. It’s unbelievably boring and stale.

No matter how good your argument is, no matter how much detail it contains, no matter how much experience you’ve put into it, you’re never going to be able to convince some people that global warming is real.

Kodiak.3281:

Offair.2563:

“oh noes this affect my hammer train, now ill need to adapt but i woooont”

Please enlighten us all with how you adapt to a larger group dumping CC’s on your head far more than you could ever stack stability?

You can’t not run into it, they’re on your head.
You can’t stack up to avoid max targets, they have unlimited targets.
You can’t be coordinated and rush around, because again CC’s on your head.

The only options with the amount of CC now is to stay range and blob attack back or build Siege equipment. That’s it. Those are your two choices. It’s unbelievably boring and stale.

I’m no expert so I’m just throwing this out there: Spread out? You’re running after them, maybe some zerglings can go off to the sides and push in. Spread out zerg=Spread out CC=Less Stability to break through. Might be harder if they try to run away, but if you’re both zergs attempting to fight each other, you may be able to throw some groups to the sides and close in on them. Hell, maybe some portal plays or thief action. At any rate, would this strategy not work?

Dondagora.9645:

I’m no expert so I’m just throwing this out there: Spread out? You’re running after them, maybe some zerglings can go off to the sides and push in. Spread out zerg=Spread out CC=Less Stability to break through. Might be harder if they try to run away, but if you’re both zergs attempting to fight each other, you may be able to throw some groups to the sides and close in on them. Hell, maybe some portal plays or thief action. At any rate, would this strategy not work?

Theorycraft:
When you see the enemy spreading out, you can focus some of them with all your bomb, they’ll caught in your CC, they’ll die to your dmg, as they’re spread, less ppl = aoe cap will not help them. After you killed the first some, you can continue to the others, as they’ll have a numerical disadvantage now, you’ll prolly win.

Bubi.5237:

Dondagora.9645:

I’m no expert so I’m just throwing this out there: Spread out? You’re running after them, maybe some zerglings can go off to the sides and push in. Spread out zerg=Spread out CC=Less Stability to break through. Might be harder if they try to run away, but if you’re both zergs attempting to fight each other, you may be able to throw some groups to the sides and close in on them. Hell, maybe some portal plays or thief action. At any rate, would this strategy not work?

Theorycraft:
When you see the enemy spreading out, you can focus some of them with all your bomb, they’ll caught in your CC, they’ll die to your dmg, as they’re spread, less ppl = aoe cap will not help them. After you killed the first some, you can continue to the others, as they’ll have a numerical disadvantage now, you’ll prolly win.

I see your point. What about splitting into two zergs of roughly half the original? Still enough to lessen the focused AoE, and focusing one might give chance to the other to begin focusing. Or would this be the same problem, and to what extent?

Dondagora.9645:

I see your point. What about splitting into two zergs of roughly half the original? Still enough to lessen the focused AoE, and focusing one might give chance to the other to begin focusing. Or would this be the same problem, and to what extent?

As I see the Pirate Meta (couldn’t play enough sadly), you want to down the enemy using ranged dmg, while CCing them so they’ll not run out from your bomb.
With this stabi change, CC will be almost always more than the stabi for you, so..
If you split into 2, maybe one of your half can CC/dps while the other is focused, but I’m not sure if it will change anything for the better, it’s hard enough to kill someone as they can just res them fast even if you focus with your whole blob.

Bubi.5237:

Dondagora.9645:

I see your point. What about splitting into two zergs of roughly half the original? Still enough to lessen the focused AoE, and focusing one might give chance to the other to begin focusing. Or would this be the same problem, and to what extent?

As I see the Pirate Meta (couldn’t play enough sadly), you want to down the enemy using ranged dmg, while CCing them so they’ll not run out from your bomb.
With this stabi change, CC will be almost always more than the stabi for you, so..
If you split into 2, maybe one of your half can CC/dps while the other is focused, but I’m not sure if it will change anything for the better, it’s hard enough to kill someone as they can just res them fast even if you focus with your whole blob.

The thing that seems to make this meta strong is the fact that the cap for support skills⁵ means that spreading high stacks Stability throughout a zerg is harder, thus the zerg is full of low stability stacks while running through high stacks of CC. To counter this, I’m proposing a solution that will either have the enemy zerg splitting their CC, making it easier to penetrate with the more concentrated Stability of smaller zergs. The Zergs don’t have to be flanking, but by spreading out the CC, it’s basically weakening what’s preventing the melee train from reaching the pirate ship.

So my thoughts are thus: Either a smaller melee train will reach the enemy pirate ship while the ship concentrates on the other train, or the pirate ship will try to hit both zergs which are a distance away from each other with CC fields which will effectively mean that the CC is spread out and is easier to pass with stability. As for ranged damage, aren’t there defenses against this such as mesmer’s Feedback and traited Focus and Guardian’s bubble-thingy?

Well, this is all theory, but would these counter-strategies work[Splitting into two trains to thin the CC and using various anti-projectile skills] against the Pirate Ship meta?

Dondagora.9645:

The thing that seems to make this meta strong is the fact that the cap for support skills⁵ means that spreading high stacks Stability throughout a zerg is harder, thus the zerg is full of low stability stacks while running through high stacks of CC. To counter this, I’m proposing a solution that will either have the enemy zerg splitting their CC, making it easier to penetrate with the more concentrated Stability of smaller zergs. The Zergs don’t have to be flanking, but by spreading out the CC, it’s basically weakening what’s preventing the melee train from reaching the pirate ship.

So my thoughts are thus: Either a smaller melee train will reach the enemy pirate ship while the ship concentrates on the other train, or the pirate ship will try to hit both zergs which are a distance away from each other with CC fields which will effectively mean that the CC is spread out and is easier to pass with stability. As for ranged damage, aren’t there defenses against this such as mesmer’s Feedback and traited Focus and Guardian’s bubble-thingy?

Well, this is all theory, but would these counter-strategies work[Splitting into two trains to thin the CC and using various anti-projectile skills] against the Pirate Ship meta?

Most dmg comes from NOT Projectiles, so reflect will have lesser effect. (Wells, Meteor Shower/Lava Font, etc.)
A zerg/blob can remove 25 stacks of stabi in 1-3 seconds, a blob always has more CC than stabi (‘cos stabi has 5 man aoe cap while line/circle CC has no cap).
You can try to bait/outplay them, but against good commanders, it’ll not help much..
If you split, they’ll focus one of your group while hard-ressing themselves.
If you don’t split, everything remains the same.

Jarrix.8234:

No matter how good your argument is, no matter how much detail it contains, no matter how much experience you’ve put into it, you’re never going to be able to convince some people that global warming is real.

You’ll never know unless you actually make an argument.

Kodiak.3281:

Healing isn’t viable because there’s no amount of healing in the game that will counter or even mitigate the amount of damage available in game. The numbers just aren’t there even blasting Water fields. Largely this is because +Healing is garbage because it’s been overly nerfed in SPvP which translated to nerfs in the rest of the game as well.

I find it a little hard to accept that dedicated healers have actually been tried recently in any significant numbers. Certainly not since the patch. Blast fields barely scale, but ArenaNet has been trying relentlessly to upgrade outgoing healing effects to the point where they might actually do something. Blasting water fields is cool, but honestly that’s the minimum possible investment in healing…

I notice lots of people against the change but only like 3-4 people who claim it was good. They attack others with L2P insults, telling them not to speak their opinion, and to wait for the meta to adapt. Maybe i am missing some of the other “pro” change posters, but i am sure am getting tired of the same voices championing it while attempting to suppress those who don’t like it.
Many of us don’t like the change, our opinions are just as important as yours.