Guild Wars 2

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Bringing back old borders & how WvW were before HoT would make alot of player return, me included with my friends.

Shadelang.3012:

lil devils x.6071:

gennyt.3428:

You’ll still have EBG to use these awful guild upgrades. If we’re caring about options so much at least give the people who don’t like chilling fog, p2w culling and banners some respite via the BLs.

They need to pull them from EBG too and give guilds something much better instead of this garbage for their money, time and effort put in to earning them. These were just very bad ideas from the beginning that should have never been implemented in actual game play.

Gonna have to disagree here. Things like the chill field made outmanuvering an enemy zerg actually a thing. As there backline gets further stretched behind there aoe clearing frontline. Making it possible to defend with far fewer people as long as you can get organized enough to do it. Instead of just having this blob power through anything you try to put in there path through shear supply count.

The guild upgrades themselves are fine. If they need balancing that can be done. But getting rid of them entirely is just gonna make the fights go stale faster.

You should always remember the zerg will be defending objectives if the game mode is set up properly, so all you are doing is giving one zerg a massive advantage over everyone else who touches anything. The few are not supposed to fight the many, the many fight the many. Anything the individual can do the zerg does in mass.

It was already too easy to defend if your team actually bothered to defend objectives., you do not need a bunch of gimmicks to do so.You solve that by personally rewarding players for defending MORE than rewarding attacking and you kill the KTrain. Easy as that, they forgot to do that is the only reason why players did not defend before.

lil devils x.6071:

Shadelang.3012:

lil devils x.6071:

gennyt.3428:

You’ll still have EBG to use these awful guild upgrades. If we’re caring about options so much at least give the people who don’t like chilling fog, p2w culling and banners some respite via the BLs.

They need to pull them from EBG too and give guilds something much better instead of this garbage for their money, time and effort put in to earning them. These were just very bad ideas from the beginning that should have never been implemented in actual game play.

Gonna have to disagree here. Things like the chill field made outmanuvering an enemy zerg actually a thing. As there backline gets further stretched behind there aoe clearing frontline. Making it possible to defend with far fewer people as long as you can get organized enough to do it. Instead of just having this blob power through anything you try to put in there path through shear supply count.

The guild upgrades themselves are fine. If they need balancing that can be done. But getting rid of them entirely is just gonna make the fights go stale faster.

You should always remember the zerg will be defending objectives if the game mode is set up properly, so all you are doing is giving one zerg a massive advantage over everyone else who touches anything. The few are not supposed to fight the many, the many fight the many. Anything the individual can do the zerg does in mass.

It was already too easy to defend if your team actually bothered to defend objectives., you do not need a bunch of gimmicks to do so.You solve that by personally rewarding players for defending MORE than rewarding attacking and you kill the KTrain. Easy as that, they forgot to do that is the only reason why players did not defend before.

Its true that the rewards were a big part of it. And also a part of the reason why so many people didn’t bother upgrading objectives. After all why would you put gold into something when you won’t get gold out of it. The few that did were often left with bittersweet feelings on the matter watching the towers/camps they defended falling without having any impact.

I feel like the guild claiming buff that keeps give out goes a bit towards helping with that. Improved magic find and the like. But a more concrete reward would help. Unfortunately as far as I know there isn’t anything like that in place. Or even the system for it unless you wanted to add a big gold reward to successful defense events. But that would be pretty exploitable. How would you do it? You said its easy. But I don’t really see how it could implemented without making it heavily exploitable by players.

Shadelang.3012:

And tell me puck. How much gold did you YOURSELF sink into upgrading towers and camps?

I can say with some certainty its atleast over a thousand for me. Even if it swaps back I probably won’t be helping out with that anymore. Most of the times I upgraded things it was simply because time had passed and no one else had bothered. Partly because it was felt that defending and objective simply had no meaning. After all there wasn’t any point in trying to hold a tower against a larger group unless you had an organized group yourself…atleast in the eyes of the player base.

You seem pretty eager to throw the word PvE around as if it means something. And your last few points its been pretty clear you don’t hold much respect for my opinion. (You aren’t exactly subtle)

I would list my credentials but the simple fact is you wouldn’t care. You have already made your decision. And you aren’t really reading what I am typing except to pick at it. Its pretty obvious in how your replies are now mostly thinly veiled insults.

Speaking of minority. I wonder how much of the playerbase actually CARES enough to come on to the forums to talk about the game. Last I checked the number of people that even got on to forums in the first place WERE the minority. So that in itself has no meaning here.

Sentries doing the work of scouts? No. Its sentries having a purpose and giving scouts the basic knowledge they need to do their job. (This sentry is alive. Meaning the enemies are probably gonna go through X route to get to Y Tower/Keep) it doesn’t take away anything from scouts. Sentries cover TINY portions of the map. But they cover routes letting the scouts focus on routes that AREN’T covered. And telling them what places are more at risk than others.

Structures getting upgraded on there own was purely a quality of life decision. After literally years of a select few people throwing gold in and getting nothing out of it. It wasn’t the Majority that upgraded towers and camps. It was the minority that happened to notice (Hey this isn’t upgrading and its full of supply. Let me do something with it)

Everything else in your post is pure vitriol in the hopes of discrediting the person your talking to. And your not even that good at hiding it.

All of my gold goes to WvW. I don’t have any legendaries, I have never even fully leveled a crafting profession. My money is spent on siege, food/utility buffs and (previously) upgrades. Even when I was hitting enemy bl’s I would start an upgrade in everything I flipped.
You previously spoke of using a bomb to blow up supply. We already had that. I can’t tell you how many times I would run to a camp or sit in a tower and drain the supply right in front of an enemy zerg, give them a little wave, and then escape and laugh spam when I was a safe distance. I’d frustrate them so much I’d get half the zerg chasing me.
That was removed from the game (unless you grind PvE to get GH upgrades to build your precious bomb).
As for you point about how many people come to the forums… it doesn’t matter. It’s clearly evident by the amount of player that have left the game that HoT was a failure. It’s clearly evident out of the players that do post, the majority do not enjoy the changes. You can try to say “but some do like it”, and “we don’t know exact numbers”, but that doesn’t kittening matter. If you can’t admit that the majority is against the HoT garbage than you are being dishonest with either us or yourself.

Shadelang.3012:

lil devils x.6071:

Shadelang.3012:

lil devils x.6071:

gennyt.3428:

You’ll still have EBG to use these awful guild upgrades. If we’re caring about options so much at least give the people who don’t like chilling fog, p2w culling and banners some respite via the BLs.

They need to pull them from EBG too and give guilds something much better instead of this garbage for their money, time and effort put in to earning them. These were just very bad ideas from the beginning that should have never been implemented in actual game play.

Gonna have to disagree here. Things like the chill field made outmanuvering an enemy zerg actually a thing. As there backline gets further stretched behind there aoe clearing frontline. Making it possible to defend with far fewer people as long as you can get organized enough to do it. Instead of just having this blob power through anything you try to put in there path through shear supply count.

The guild upgrades themselves are fine. If they need balancing that can be done. But getting rid of them entirely is just gonna make the fights go stale faster.

You should always remember the zerg will be defending objectives if the game mode is set up properly, so all you are doing is giving one zerg a massive advantage over everyone else who touches anything. The few are not supposed to fight the many, the many fight the many. Anything the individual can do the zerg does in mass.

It was already too easy to defend if your team actually bothered to defend objectives., you do not need a bunch of gimmicks to do so.You solve that by personally rewarding players for defending MORE than rewarding attacking and you kill the KTrain. Easy as that, they forgot to do that is the only reason why players did not defend before.

Its true that the rewards were a big part of it. And also a part of the reason why so many people didn’t bother upgrading objectives. After all why would you put gold into something when you won’t get gold out of it. The few that did were often left with bittersweet feelings on the matter watching the towers/camps they defended falling without having any impact.

I feel like the guild claiming buff that keeps give out goes a bit towards helping with that. Improved magic find and the like. But a more concrete reward would help. Unfortunately as far as I know there isn’t anything like that in place. Or even the system for it unless you wanted to add a big gold reward to successful defense events. But that would be pretty exploitable. How would you do it? You said its easy. But I don’t really see how it could implemented without making it heavily exploitable by players.

You increase PPK, LOOT, and XP for players attacking and defending objectives without the use of siege damage. If you are in an attacking or defended structure under attack while fighting you will receive more XP, LOOT and PPK for doing so. Give the defending team slightly more than the attacking team, and the zerg will defend it. No loot for siege damage encourages players to fight each other without siege over objectives in order to receive the pay off. This way you are not rewarding afkers or siege humpers and encouraging fun fights over objectives instead.

The important issue is to tie personal player rewards, the LOOT, XP and PPK to players fighting in objectives, not just “reward people for being there.”

lil devils x.6071:

Shadelang.3012:

lil devils x.6071:

Shadelang.3012:

lil devils x.6071:

gennyt.3428:

You’ll still have EBG to use these awful guild upgrades. If we’re caring about options so much at least give the people who don’t like chilling fog, p2w culling and banners some respite via the BLs.

They need to pull them from EBG too and give guilds something much better instead of this garbage for their money, time and effort put in to earning them. These were just very bad ideas from the beginning that should have never been implemented in actual game play.

Gonna have to disagree here. Things like the chill field made outmanuvering an enemy zerg actually a thing. As there backline gets further stretched behind there aoe clearing frontline. Making it possible to defend with far fewer people as long as you can get organized enough to do it. Instead of just having this blob power through anything you try to put in there path through shear supply count.

The guild upgrades themselves are fine. If they need balancing that can be done. But getting rid of them entirely is just gonna make the fights go stale faster.

You should always remember the zerg will be defending objectives if the game mode is set up properly, so all you are doing is giving one zerg a massive advantage over everyone else who touches anything. The few are not supposed to fight the many, the many fight the many. Anything the individual can do the zerg does in mass.

It was already too easy to defend if your team actually bothered to defend objectives., you do not need a bunch of gimmicks to do so.You solve that by personally rewarding players for defending MORE than rewarding attacking and you kill the KTrain. Easy as that, they forgot to do that is the only reason why players did not defend before.

Its true that the rewards were a big part of it. And also a part of the reason why so many people didn’t bother upgrading objectives. After all why would you put gold into something when you won’t get gold out of it. The few that did were often left with bittersweet feelings on the matter watching the towers/camps they defended falling without having any impact.

I feel like the guild claiming buff that keeps give out goes a bit towards helping with that. Improved magic find and the like. But a more concrete reward would help. Unfortunately as far as I know there isn’t anything like that in place. Or even the system for it unless you wanted to add a big gold reward to successful defense events. But that would be pretty exploitable. How would you do it? You said its easy. But I don’t really see how it could implemented without making it heavily exploitable by players.

You increase PPK, LOOT, and XP for players attacking and defending objectives without the use of siege damage. If you are in an attacking or defended structure under attack while fighting you will receive more XP, LOOT and PPK for doing so. Give the defending team slightly more than the attacking team, and the zerg will defend it. No loot for siege damage encourages players to fight each other without siege over objectives in order to receive the pay off. This way you are not rewarding afkers or siege humpers and encouraging fun fights over objectives instead.

That actually pretty heavily PUNISHES the use of siege though doesn’kitten And this is a situation where what one person finds fun another might not. There are probably people that truly enjoy using an arrow cart to waylay attackers. I’m not sure punishing those players for enjoying the game is the right awnser here.

Though I do feel your on the right track with increase loot for attacking/defending. Perhaps increased loot in general for successive kills in a given objective? Something that would cap out but would encourage players to keep fighting for that last kill even against overwhelming odds. Like a stacking buff you get per kill that caps out at say 20 with increased magic find and gold per kill around a claimed objective?

@Puck

Heres the thing I was getting at with the forums. Most players DON’T care enough about an issue to get on the forums and talk about it. The ones that do are usually unhappy. An unhappy player is statistically more likely to make a post than a happy one. That’s a recorded fact shown evidence of which is shown in every game forum ever made by ANY developer. So OBVIOUSLY the forum is going to have mostly negative comments inbetween “Discovery” phases (something new that shakes it up that causes actualy discussion eventually the discussion dies down and those that are unhappy with the current state of the game voice there opinions)

Again I wasn’t even REMOTELY trying to claim that HoT as a whole didn’t lower the WvW Population.

Whether the majority is against it or not is what doesn’t matter. You can fix a problem without taking a chainsaw to it. Something anet learned after Half the PvP forum spent a year and a half raging at them for one axe nerf after another. Nerfs that were brought on because the vocal minority had the floor and made it seem like the end of the world. Instead of rounding up every single aspect of HoT WvW and tossing it out the window we can look at what they did RIGHT and keep it. Even if we don’t fully agree with it. And don’t just say (Oh they got NOTHING right) now THAT is being dishonest.

Shadelang.3012:

lil devils x.6071:

Shadelang.3012:

lil devils x.6071:

Shadelang.3012:

lil devils x.6071:

gennyt.3428:

You’ll still have EBG to use these awful guild upgrades. If we’re caring about options so much at least give the people who don’t like chilling fog, p2w culling and banners some respite via the BLs.

They need to pull them from EBG too and give guilds something much better instead of this garbage for their money, time and effort put in to earning them. These were just very bad ideas from the beginning that should have never been implemented in actual game play.

Gonna have to disagree here. Things like the chill field made outmanuvering an enemy zerg actually a thing. As there backline gets further stretched behind there aoe clearing frontline. Making it possible to defend with far fewer people as long as you can get organized enough to do it. Instead of just having this blob power through anything you try to put in there path through shear supply count.

The guild upgrades themselves are fine. If they need balancing that can be done. But getting rid of them entirely is just gonna make the fights go stale faster.

You should always remember the zerg will be defending objectives if the game mode is set up properly, so all you are doing is giving one zerg a massive advantage over everyone else who touches anything. The few are not supposed to fight the many, the many fight the many. Anything the individual can do the zerg does in mass.

It was already too easy to defend if your team actually bothered to defend objectives., you do not need a bunch of gimmicks to do so.You solve that by personally rewarding players for defending MORE than rewarding attacking and you kill the KTrain. Easy as that, they forgot to do that is the only reason why players did not defend before.

Its true that the rewards were a big part of it. And also a part of the reason why so many people didn’t bother upgrading objectives. After all why would you put gold into something when you won’t get gold out of it. The few that did were often left with bittersweet feelings on the matter watching the towers/camps they defended falling without having any impact.

I feel like the guild claiming buff that keeps give out goes a bit towards helping with that. Improved magic find and the like. But a more concrete reward would help. Unfortunately as far as I know there isn’t anything like that in place. Or even the system for it unless you wanted to add a big gold reward to successful defense events. But that would be pretty exploitable. How would you do it? You said its easy. But I don’t really see how it could implemented without making it heavily exploitable by players.

You increase PPK, LOOT, and XP for players attacking and defending objectives without the use of siege damage. If you are in an attacking or defended structure under attack while fighting you will receive more XP, LOOT and PPK for doing so. Give the defending team slightly more than the attacking team, and the zerg will defend it. No loot for siege damage encourages players to fight each other without siege over objectives in order to receive the pay off. This way you are not rewarding afkers or siege humpers and encouraging fun fights over objectives instead.

That actually pretty heavily PUNISHES the use of siege though doesn’kitten And this is a situation where what one person finds fun another might not. There are probably people that truly enjoy using an arrow cart to waylay attackers. I’m not sure punishing those players for enjoying the game is the right awnser here.

Though I do feel your on the right track with increase loot for attacking/defending. Perhaps increased loot in general for successive kills in a given objective? Something that would cap out but would encourage players to keep fighting for that last kill even against overwhelming odds. Like a stacking buff you get per kill that caps out at say 20 with increased magic find and gold per kill around a claimed objective?

It actually balances siege use, the current issue is you have entire zergs on siege vs anyone who is not. That is fine, siege is still detrimental, however, you have to choose between being personally rewarding, having increased point and receiving XP for using it and it will balance out. It is powerful to use siege, but you sacrifice your rewards for doing so.

ANYONE and everyone can sit on an AC, and the entire Zerg can sit on siege as well, and often DO. Anything the individual can do the zerg will do in mass. It takes no skill to do so. This issue is why thousands of players have left WvW for better balanced PvP. To resolve that issue and make it fun to the majority, they have to balance out siege and the best way to do so is make those who use it have to sacrifice personally and not reward their server for it’s usage. Siege is crutch, a handicap. you do not get extra rewarded when it already gives you an advantage. The players who are at the disadvantage fighting against siege and such should be the ones rewarded for their efforts since it is much more difficult to do so than sit on an AC.

If you want to have fun fights over objectives, this is part of how to make it fun for the majority of players in the fight. Though they should ALSO increase the defenders ability to fight from the walls, so they do not need to rely as heavily on siege to do so. ( make it harder to pull players from the walls, give them more distance in fighting as they should have, ect..

lil devils x.6071:

Shadelang.3012:

lil devils x.6071:

Shadelang.3012:

lil devils x.6071:

Shadelang.3012:

lil devils x.6071:

gennyt.3428:

You’ll still have EBG to use these awful guild upgrades. If we’re caring about options so much at least give the people who don’t like chilling fog, p2w culling and banners some respite via the BLs.

They need to pull them from EBG too and give guilds something much better instead of this garbage for their money, time and effort put in to earning them. These were just very bad ideas from the beginning that should have never been implemented in actual game play.

Gonna have to disagree here. Things like the chill field made outmanuvering an enemy zerg actually a thing. As there backline gets further stretched behind there aoe clearing frontline. Making it possible to defend with far fewer people as long as you can get organized enough to do it. Instead of just having this blob power through anything you try to put in there path through shear supply count.

The guild upgrades themselves are fine. If they need balancing that can be done. But getting rid of them entirely is just gonna make the fights go stale faster.

You should always remember the zerg will be defending objectives if the game mode is set up properly, so all you are doing is giving one zerg a massive advantage over everyone else who touches anything. The few are not supposed to fight the many, the many fight the many. Anything the individual can do the zerg does in mass.

It was already too easy to defend if your team actually bothered to defend objectives., you do not need a bunch of gimmicks to do so.You solve that by personally rewarding players for defending MORE than rewarding attacking and you kill the KTrain. Easy as that, they forgot to do that is the only reason why players did not defend before.

Its true that the rewards were a big part of it. And also a part of the reason why so many people didn’t bother upgrading objectives. After all why would you put gold into something when you won’t get gold out of it. The few that did were often left with bittersweet feelings on the matter watching the towers/camps they defended falling without having any impact.

I feel like the guild claiming buff that keeps give out goes a bit towards helping with that. Improved magic find and the like. But a more concrete reward would help. Unfortunately as far as I know there isn’t anything like that in place. Or even the system for it unless you wanted to add a big gold reward to successful defense events. But that would be pretty exploitable. How would you do it? You said its easy. But I don’t really see how it could implemented without making it heavily exploitable by players.

You increase PPK, LOOT, and XP for players attacking and defending objectives without the use of siege damage. If you are in an attacking or defended structure under attack while fighting you will receive more XP, LOOT and PPK for doing so. Give the defending team slightly more than the attacking team, and the zerg will defend it. No loot for siege damage encourages players to fight each other without siege over objectives in order to receive the pay off. This way you are not rewarding afkers or siege humpers and encouraging fun fights over objectives instead.

That actually pretty heavily PUNISHES the use of siege though doesn’kitten And this is a situation where what one person finds fun another might not. There are probably people that truly enjoy using an arrow cart to waylay attackers. I’m not sure punishing those players for enjoying the game is the right awnser here.

Though I do feel your on the right track with increase loot for attacking/defending. Perhaps increased loot in general for successive kills in a given objective? Something that would cap out but would encourage players to keep fighting for that last kill even against overwhelming odds. Like a stacking buff you get per kill that caps out at say 20 with increased magic find and gold per kill around a claimed objective?

It actually balances siege use, the current issue is you have entire zergs on siege vs anyone who is not. That is fine, siege is still detrimental, however, you have to choose between being personally rewarding, having increased point and receiving XP for using it and it will balance out. It is powerful to use siege, but you sacrifice your rewards for doing so.

ANYONE and everyone can sit on an AC, and the entire Zerg can sit on siege as well, and often DO. It takes no skill to do so. This isue is why thousands of players have left WvW for better balanced PvP. to resolve that issue and make it fun to the majority, they have to balance out siege and the best way to do so is make those who use it have to sacrifice personally and not reward their server for it’s usage. Siege is crutch, a handicap. you do not get extra rewarded when it already gives you an advantage. The players who are at the disadvantage fighting against siege and such should be the ones rewarded for their efforts since it is much more difficult to do so than sit on an AC.

Hmm that is a fair point. But it should still be possible to to reward ground fighters additonaly without taking rewards away from siege users. Lets face it siege is a mandatory part of WvW. You CAN’T play the game mode without siege in one form or another. Should we take away contribution from the guy that used a flame ram to knock down a door?

Do we make it so that ONLY arrow carts and ballistas are affected by this?

If we start reworking WvW to discourage the use of siege at all. Were gonna have to also work on how objectives are breached as well. If we discourage one form of siege that’s gonna affect the others in some way as well.

Punishing an individual that chooses to help his team doesn’t really seem to make sense to me. But its possible we have different views. You can reward people for having higher risk without pushing players that have a greater effect. Giving a boost that differentiates between kills through siege and kills on the ground might be possible.

WIth that you can increase the magic find/exp gain/and silver per kill of a ground troop without completely taking away from the arrow cart user. Quality over quantity for example. This means that an elementalist who downs 9 people with a meteor shower will get rewarded more than the guy that got 14-15 downs with the AC.

Shadelang.3012:

lil devils x.6071:

Shadelang.3012:

lil devils x.6071:

Shadelang.3012:

lil devils x.6071:

Shadelang.3012:

lil devils x.6071:

gennyt.3428:

You’ll still have EBG to use these awful guild upgrades. If we’re caring about options so much at least give the people who don’t like chilling fog, p2w culling and banners some respite via the BLs.

They need to pull them from EBG too and give guilds something much better instead of this garbage for their money, time and effort put in to earning them. These were just very bad ideas from the beginning that should have never been implemented in actual game play.

Gonna have to disagree here. Things like the chill field made outmanuvering an enemy zerg actually a thing. As there backline gets further stretched behind there aoe clearing frontline. Making it possible to defend with far fewer people as long as you can get organized enough to do it. Instead of just having this blob power through anything you try to put in there path through shear supply count.

The guild upgrades themselves are fine. If they need balancing that can be done. But getting rid of them entirely is just gonna make the fights go stale faster.

You should always remember the zerg will be defending objectives if the game mode is set up properly, so all you are doing is giving one zerg a massive advantage over everyone else who touches anything. The few are not supposed to fight the many, the many fight the many. Anything the individual can do the zerg does in mass.

It was already too easy to defend if your team actually bothered to defend objectives., you do not need a bunch of gimmicks to do so.You solve that by personally rewarding players for defending MORE than rewarding attacking and you kill the KTrain. Easy as that, they forgot to do that is the only reason why players did not defend before.

Its true that the rewards were a big part of it. And also a part of the reason why so many people didn’t bother upgrading objectives. After all why would you put gold into something when you won’t get gold out of it. The few that did were often left with bittersweet feelings on the matter watching the towers/camps they defended falling without having any impact.

I feel like the guild claiming buff that keeps give out goes a bit towards helping with that. Improved magic find and the like. But a more concrete reward would help. Unfortunately as far as I know there isn’t anything like that in place. Or even the system for it unless you wanted to add a big gold reward to successful defense events. But that would be pretty exploitable. How would you do it? You said its easy. But I don’t really see how it could implemented without making it heavily exploitable by players.

You increase PPK, LOOT, and XP for players attacking and defending objectives without the use of siege damage. If you are in an attacking or defended structure under attack while fighting you will receive more XP, LOOT and PPK for doing so. Give the defending team slightly more than the attacking team, and the zerg will defend it. No loot for siege damage encourages players to fight each other without siege over objectives in order to receive the pay off. This way you are not rewarding afkers or siege humpers and encouraging fun fights over objectives instead.

That actually pretty heavily PUNISHES the use of siege though doesn’kitten And this is a situation where what one person finds fun another might not. There are probably people that truly enjoy using an arrow cart to waylay attackers. I’m not sure punishing those players for enjoying the game is the right awnser here.

Though I do feel your on the right track with increase loot for attacking/defending. Perhaps increased loot in general for successive kills in a given objective? Something that would cap out but would encourage players to keep fighting for that last kill even against overwhelming odds. Like a stacking buff you get per kill that caps out at say 20 with increased magic find and gold per kill around a claimed objective?

It actually balances siege use, the current issue is you have entire zergs on siege vs anyone who is not. That is fine, siege is still detrimental, however, you have to choose between being personally rewarding, having increased point and receiving XP for using it and it will balance out. It is powerful to use siege, but you sacrifice your rewards for doing so.

ANYONE and everyone can sit on an AC, and the entire Zerg can sit on siege as well, and often DO. It takes no skill to do so. This isue is why thousands of players have left WvW for better balanced PvP. to resolve that issue and make it fun to the majority, they have to balance out siege and the best way to do so is make those who use it have to sacrifice personally and not reward their server for it’s usage. Siege is crutch, a handicap. you do not get extra rewarded when it already gives you an advantage. The players who are at the disadvantage fighting against siege and such should be the ones rewarded for their efforts since it is much more difficult to do so than sit on an AC.

Hmm that is a fair point. But it should still be possible to to reward ground fighters additonaly without taking rewards away from siege users. Lets face it siege is a mandatory part of WvW. You CAN’T play the game mode without siege in one form or another. Should we take away contribution from the guy that used a flame ram to knock down a door?

Do we make it so that ONLY arrow carts and ballistas are affected by this?

If we start reworking WvW to discourage the use of siege at all. Were gonna have to also work on how objectives are breached as well. If we discourage one form of siege that’s gonna affect the others in some way as well.

Punishing an individual that chooses to help his team doesn’t really seem to make sense to me. But its possible we have different views. You can reward people for having higher risk without pushing players that have a greater effect. Giving a boost that differentiates between kills through siege and kills on the ground might be possible.

WIth that you can increase the magic find/exp gain/and silver per kill of a ground troop without completely taking away from the arrow cart user. Quality over quantity for example. This means that an elementalist who downs 9 people with a meteor shower will get rewarded more than the guy that got 14-15 downs with the AC.

No, you have to stop with the siege humping in mass, or that is all that will be left. Siege users can still receive XP from siege damage to buildings and other siege, just not players. The key to stopping mass siege humping and make the fights fun again for the majority is to make it unrewarding to use the siege in a fight against players instead of your characters skills. Focusing on siege damage and such and Anet failing to reward player skill is why the game mode is dying. Not rewarding Siege damage on players is to bring back what killed fun fights.

No rewards for siege damage on players IS encouraging players to get off that AC and learn to play their character, as PvP game mode should do. It takes no skill to sit on an AC, anyone/everyone can do it, no rewards for no skill used, it is a lazy way to fight. Rewarding skill is what a PvP game mode should do. As an alternative compensation though, acquiring high level siege in WvW just by playing and having fun should be extremely easy to do and not be financially impacting servers and players the way it currently does. Everything used/ needed to play WvW should be abundantly supplied just from playing and enjoying the game mode itself, not by grinding.

Hoping for the old to come back and to remove all that was added in the 1,5 years HOT has been running is a fools dream. If the Alpine borderlands come back they will include the new system and you will just have to learn to live with it.

On a personnal note i agree with Thegrimm and Shadelang

If you wish to alter WvW fundamentally ask Arena-net to do a poll to consult the WvW-player base?

Angel Heart.6739:

If the Alpine borderlands come back they will include the new system and you will just have to learn to live with it.

Or leave and play another game.. like a lot of wvw players have already done…

What is a hot system?

They wanted to make WvW maps as good as the old GvG maps yet…. pve players call maps adversaties awfull because they cant karma train and cross map in a few minutes.

Well done gw2 players, well done.

Xenesis.6389:

Angel Heart.6739:

If the Alpine borderlands come back they will include the new system and you will just have to learn to live with it.

Or leave and play another game.. like a lot of wvw players have already done…

Yes, this is the current state of the game. They need to go back to emailing PAST and present WvW players to ask them what they enjoy in WvW. The email surveys are the most effective way to gauge that. WvW will only be downhill from here if they do not reverse course and go back to to their roots and what set Anet apart from the rest.
They have the ability to make GW2 WvW hands down the best massive large scale PvP game mode on the market if they actually stop killing it and move in the opposite direction. They need to focus on making players grow in WvW, not culling them off and mushing together the remaining.

Aeolus.3615:

What is a hot system?

PVE, grindy, gimmicky, bouncy environmentally NPC focused material.= HoT system. ( AKA~ Banners, airships, more NPC’s, Grind PvE to be able to play WvW, stupid crap popping out of the ground, auto WP, spend all your time running around aimlessly and PvD than in PvP action… )

lil devils x.6071:

Aeolus.3615:

What is a hot system?

PVE, grindy, gimmicky, bouncy environmentally NPC focused material.= HoT system. ( AKA~ Banners, airships, more NPC’s, Grind PvE to be able to play WvW, stupid crap popping out of the ground, auto WP, spend all your time running around aimlessly and PvD than in PvP action… )

But if they take that out, people will still pvd karma train most of the time, due how WvW is designed.
What ic is that those gimmicks were introduced as tools to the karma train gameplay, so whatever they do w/o fixing the real issue well… will always be karma train base game redundancy, blob and get blobed, increase and decrease siege damage changes, with or w/o those heavy gimmicks and gw2 is a game built to be made by gimmicks and hot systems.

I dont think the problem is the gimmicks existance, but how the gimmicks works game dont have nothing besides that and they are super strong to atrack players using them, like a bait system to say everything is working fine, wich is not.

By the other hand we have players that call fighthing empty bl’s pvd a GG, dont want the adversaties that the new BL offers because in Alpine BL, they could have the same with much lesser effort.

Now, what players should be askin is for a good change this gimmicks and BL mechanics, possible changes to keep design, make guild more centered game as in a more deep and complex being castles and towers extensions of the Guild Hall alot of stuff can be made in that genra, how waypoints should work or FIXED and if possible to Anet make this changes, not just “want alpine because stuff”, the truth is that alpine was a easy karma train map, and Anet did nothing to improve guilds and WvW with the new BL, actually they did bring a good map with awfull gimmicks because Anet did want to make gw2 a simple game.

Aeolus.3615:

lil devils x.6071:

Aeolus.3615:

What is a hot system?

PVE, grindy, gimmicky, bouncy environmentally NPC focused material.= HoT system. ( AKA~ Banners, airships, more NPC’s, Grind PvE to be able to play WvW, stupid crap popping out of the ground, auto WP, spend all your time running around aimlessly and PvD than in PvP action… )

But if they take that out, people will still pvd karma train most of the time, due how WvW is designed.
What ic is that those gimmicks were introduced as tools to the karma train gameplay, so whatever they do w/o fixing the real issue well… will always be karma train base game redundancy, blob and get blobed, increase and decrease siege damage changes, with or w/o those heavy gimmicks and gw2 is a game built to be made by gimmicks and hot systems.

That is why removing that garbage is only one step in improving WvW and making it grow. They have to start treating it like a large scale PvP battlefield rather than a PvE map where you can also attack other players. They need to focus more on rewarding player skill while fighting over objectives to actually start to improve it. PPK needs to take priority over PPT, completely changing the way game play is valued and rewarded in the game mode. they need to personally reward fighting other players over objectives MORE than PvD, kill NPC’s for a chest and win. You would no longer win by Ktrain and PvD, instead, you would win by having more kills at the hands of players over objectives without the use of siege. You get increased PPK, LOOT and Xp for fighting players over objectives, both attacking and defending them, and not reward PvD, Siege humping and ignoring objectives at all.

They need to realize that there are many ways to improve WvW game play and the PvE Gimmicks are not one of them.

lil devils x.6071:

Aeolus.3615:

lil devils x.6071:

Aeolus.3615:

What is a hot system?

PVE, grindy, gimmicky, bouncy environmentally NPC focused material.= HoT system. ( AKA~ Banners, airships, more NPC’s, Grind PvE to be able to play WvW, stupid crap popping out of the ground, auto WP, spend all your time running around aimlessly and PvD than in PvP action… )

(…)

That is why removing that garbage is only one step in improving WvW and making it grow. They have to start treating it like a large scale PvP battlefield rather than a PvE map where you can also attack other players. They need to focus more on rewarding player skill while fighting over objectives to actually start to improve it. PPK needs to take priority over PPT, completely changing the way game play is valued and rewarded in the game mode. they need to personally reward fighting other players over objectives MORE than PvD, kill NPC’s for a chest and win. You would no longer win by Ktrain and PvD, instead, you would win by having more kills at the hands of players over objectives without the use of siege. You get increased PPK, LOOT and Xp for fighting players over objectives, both attacking and defending them, and not reward PvD, Siege humping and ignoring objectives at all.

They need to realize that there are many ways to improve WvW game play and the PvE Gimmicks are not one of them.

Gimmicks…make game easy even for awfull players that come from other games, and give them a chance and i think this is what gw2 is about, gives the feeling they are good.

Working only on rewards and ppk, is just like give sugar to a patient and tell that it is a medicine that cures of all his/her problems whiel the problems continue, game needs much more in depth things to do.

There are many ways to improve a mmo, but anything else besides heavy gimmicks it will conflict with everythign that this game has, and the gimmicks that we have hardly get removed because it is the foundation of the game.

Aeolus.3615:

lil devils x.6071:

Aeolus.3615:

lil devils x.6071:

Aeolus.3615:

What is a hot system?

PVE, grindy, gimmicky, bouncy environmentally NPC focused material.= HoT system. ( AKA~ Banners, airships, more NPC’s, Grind PvE to be able to play WvW, stupid crap popping out of the ground, auto WP, spend all your time running around aimlessly and PvD than in PvP action… )

(…)

That is why removing that garbage is only one step in improving WvW and making it grow. They have to start treating it like a large scale PvP battlefield rather than a PvE map where you can also attack other players. They need to focus more on rewarding player skill while fighting over objectives to actually start to improve it. PPK needs to take priority over PPT, completely changing the way game play is valued and rewarded in the game mode. they need to personally reward fighting other players over objectives MORE than PvD, kill NPC’s for a chest and win. You would no longer win by Ktrain and PvD, instead, you would win by having more kills at the hands of players over objectives without the use of siege. You get increased PPK, LOOT and Xp for fighting players over objectives, both attacking and defending them, and not reward PvD, Siege humping and ignoring objectives at all.

They need to realize that there are many ways to improve WvW game play and the PvE Gimmicks are not one of them.

Gimmicks…make game easy even for awfull players that come for other games, and give them a chance and i think this is what gw2 is about.

Working only on rewards and ppk, is just like give sugar to a patient and tell that it is a medicine that cures of all his/her problems whiel the problems continue, game needs much more in depth things to do.

Um no, Gw was never about making it easier for players who suck, it was about reducing the grind and being able to come in and play with a top level character without having to play PvE to do so. That w as what set Gw1 apart.
It doesn’t " help" the individuals who suck due to anything that can be done by the individual can be done by the zerg, So in the end you just have the zerg all using the gimmicks against the few in addition to them sucking.

EVERYTHING implemented in the game mode should be expected to be used by the Zerg to their advantage and gauge how that affects the game mode prior to implementing such things. Gimmicks only make that worse for the individual, not better if you are playing on equally populated servers. If they actually solve the core issues with the game mode, every server will have a zerg, zergs will be attacking and defending fighting each other inside structures and will come back to defend their objectives due to it being worth their time and effort to do so. The individual will always be at a disadvantage to the zerg no matter how many gimmicks you implement, as it should be in a massive multiplayer PvP zone. The individual is not expected to survive or fight the zerg, if they are unfortunate enough not to get away from them and become road kill, they need to let their own zerg know where they are instead.

Shadelang.3012:

@Puck

Heres the thing I was getting at with the forums. Most players DON’T care enough about an issue to get on the forums and talk about it. The ones that do are usually unhappy. An unhappy player is statistically more likely to make a post than a happy one. That’s a recorded fact shown evidence of which is shown in every game forum ever made by ANY developer. So OBVIOUSLY the forum is going to have mostly negative comments inbetween “Discovery” phases (something new that shakes it up that causes actualy discussion eventually the discussion dies down and those that are unhappy with the current state of the game voice there opinions)

Again I wasn’t even REMOTELY trying to claim that HoT as a whole didn’t lower the WvW Population.

Whether the majority is against it or not is what doesn’t matter. You can fix a problem without taking a chainsaw to it. Something anet learned after Half the PvP forum spent a year and a half raging at them for one axe nerf after another. Nerfs that were brought on because the vocal minority had the floor and made it seem like the end of the world. Instead of rounding up every single aspect of HoT WvW and tossing it out the window we can look at what they did RIGHT and keep it. Even if we don’t fully agree with it. And don’t just say (Oh they got NOTHING right) now THAT is being dishonest.

I’m honestly struggling to think of one thing they did get right…
The only thing I can think of is the yak defence buff…. but even that’s screwed up since upgrades no longer rely on supply.
I know, I know, you still need X amount of yaks to make it in for an upgrade but that’s not the same as having to manage supply. You used to have to make hard decisions about whether you could start an upgrade, if you should save up more supply, if you should use supply for repairs or if you could hold out until an upgrade went through, etc.
It added depth to the game. Since that depth was removed I’ve never seen a fight over a yak. Players kill them if they happen across one but the small scale fights that took place over getting that needed supply into a keep just don’t happen anymore.

The better option is to bring back the alpine map without the garbage and then they can try inserting 1 new feature at a time.
That way players are getting new continuously getting new content to test and if it sucks Anet won’t get all kitten about removing it because it’s just 1 thing, not a whole bunch of kitten they are overly attached to.

lil devils x.6071:

Aeolus.3615:

lil devils x.6071:

Aeolus.3615:

lil devils x.6071:

Aeolus.3615:

What is a hot system?

PVE, grindy, gimmicky, bouncy environmentally NPC focused material.= HoT system. ( AKA~ Banners, airships, more NPC’s, Grind PvE to be able to play WvW, stupid crap popping out of the ground, auto WP, spend all your time running around aimlessly and PvD than in PvP action… )

(…)

That is why removing that garbage is only one step in improving WvW and making it grow. They have to start treating it like a large scale PvP battlefield rather than a PvE map where you can also attack other players. They need to focus more on rewarding player skill while fighting over objectives to actually start to improve it. PPK needs to take priority over PPT, completely changing the way game play is valued and rewarded in the game mode. they need to personally reward fighting other players over objectives MORE than PvD, kill NPC’s for a chest and win. You would no longer win by Ktrain and PvD, instead, you would win by having more kills at the hands of players over objectives without the use of siege. You get increased PPK, LOOT and Xp for fighting players over objectives, both attacking and defending them, and not reward PvD, Siege humping and ignoring objectives at all.

They need to realize that there are many ways to improve WvW game play and the PvE Gimmicks are not one of them.

Gimmicks…make game easy even for awfull players that come for other games, and give them a chance and i think this is what gw2 is about.

Working only on rewards and ppk, is just like give sugar to a patient and tell that it is a medicine that cures of all his/her problems whiel the problems continue, game needs much more in depth things to do.

Um no, Gw was never about making it easier for players who suck, it was about reducing the grind and being able to come in and play with a top level character without having to play PvE to do so. That w as what set Gw1 apart.
It doesn’t " help" the individuals who suck due to anything that can be done by the individual can be done by the zerg, So in the end you just have the zerg all using the gimmicks against the few in addition to them sucking.

EVERYTHING implemented in the game mode should be expected to be used by the Zerg to their advantage and gauge how that affects the game mode prior to implementing such things. Gimmicks only make that worse for the individual, not better if you are playing on equally populated servers. If they actually solve the core issues with the game mode, every server will have a zerg, zergs will be attacking and defending fighting each other inside structures and will come back to defend their objectives due to it being worth their time and effort to do so. The individual will always be at a disadvantage to the zerg no matter how many gimmicks you implement, as it should be in a massive multiplayer PvP zone. The individual is not expected to survive or fight the zerg, if they are unfortunate enough not to get away from them and become road kill, they need to let their own zerg know where they are instead.

Well said.
I swear this whole thread feels like an argument between GW1 players and the generation where everyone gets a trophy. I

If thats a fact thinking back to the beta of Gw 1 we didn,‘t have any real problems convincing players where change was needed until the removal of HA and the Arena’s out of the Tombs of the primeval kings and the arena’s in the real world into the Battlegrounds and the change of the 8 man to the 5 man team in Heroes ascent.

Sadely Alliance battles was never made into something lasting.

Lets hope for all of us that WvW doesn’t go down the same lane.

Maybe you should look at the positiv things WvW has to offer even with the new game-mechanics, if memory serves me well most players that have come back left when the Alpine borderlands were still up and running cause they were way to bored to be there anymore.

Restauring the old maps / mechanics/ stability will not renew their desire to leave the game once a new bether game pops up. So how long will they be back in Gw2 1-2 months half a year max till its the same old crap again?

Most players forget that once you leave a game its like you cut your umbilical cord to it, you may come back to it afterwards but the atmosphere the experience is never 100 % the same or what you expected once you come back.

Puck.9612:

lil devils x.6071:

Aeolus.3615:

lil devils x.6071:

Aeolus.3615:

lil devils x.6071:

Aeolus.3615:

What is a hot system?

PVE, grindy, gimmicky, bouncy environmentally NPC focused material.= HoT system. ( AKA~ Banners, airships, more NPC’s, Grind PvE to be able to play WvW, stupid crap popping out of the ground, auto WP, spend all your time running around aimlessly and PvD than in PvP action… )

(…)

That is why removing that garbage is only one step in improving WvW and making it grow. They have to start treating it like a large scale PvP battlefield rather than a PvE map where you can also attack other players. They need to focus more on rewarding player skill while fighting over objectives to actually start to improve it. PPK needs to take priority over PPT, completely changing the way game play is valued and rewarded in the game mode. they need to personally reward fighting other players over objectives MORE than PvD, kill NPC’s for a chest and win. You would no longer win by Ktrain and PvD, instead, you would win by having more kills at the hands of players over objectives without the use of siege. You get increased PPK, LOOT and Xp for fighting players over objectives, both attacking and defending them, and not reward PvD, Siege humping and ignoring objectives at all.

They need to realize that there are many ways to improve WvW game play and the PvE Gimmicks are not one of them.

Gimmicks…make game easy even for awfull players that come for other games, and give them a chance and i think this is what gw2 is about.

Working only on rewards and ppk, is just like give sugar to a patient and tell that it is a medicine that cures of all his/her problems whiel the problems continue, game needs much more in depth things to do.

Um no, Gw was never about making it easier for players who suck, it was about reducing the grind and being able to come in and play with a top level character without having to play PvE to do so. That w as what set Gw1 apart.
It doesn’t " help" the individuals who suck due to anything that can be done by the individual can be done by the zerg, So in the end you just have the zerg all using the gimmicks against the few in addition to them sucking.

EVERYTHING implemented in the game mode should be expected to be used by the Zerg to their advantage and gauge how that affects the game mode prior to implementing such things. Gimmicks only make that worse for the individual, not better if you are playing on equally populated servers. If they actually solve the core issues with the game mode, every server will have a zerg, zergs will be attacking and defending fighting each other inside structures and will come back to defend their objectives due to it being worth their time and effort to do so. The individual will always be at a disadvantage to the zerg no matter how many gimmicks you implement, as it should be in a massive multiplayer PvP zone. The individual is not expected to survive or fight the zerg, if they are unfortunate enough not to get away from them and become road kill, they need to let their own zerg know where they are instead.

Well said.
I swear this whole thread feels like an argument between GW1 players and the generation where everyone gets a trophy. I

lol why puck?? c’mon gw2 is so casual that is even hardcore for some casuals…it sucks, reason it is a easy game deppending on strong gimmicks.

@lil, core issues?
i hardly see them fixed or changed cause they are the fundations of the game.

Angel Heart.6739:

Sadely Alliance battles was never made into something lasting.

Lets hope for all of us that WvW doesn’t go down the same lane.

i think its way too late for that lol. wvw feels pretty much like ab to me. didnt realize this until i read your post.

backcapping, bomb npcs, oh look a group, yay fun for 3 minutes, bomb npcs, bomb npcs, hurry and run for your (ppt) life until the timer runs out. reset, flush rinse repeat.

i liked ab plenty but the map was waaay smaller so there was action around every corner.

+1 to thread. Liking the discussion in here.

Shadelang + lilx, please keep posting, liking what you’re arguing about.

Regarding Zergs and being able to use anything than a single player can, that is one of the core problems of numbers in the game. So in order to create tools to use against a larger group/zerg, without them using it back against you in larger numbers, how ? Guess an obvious answer is scaling to numbers (things not working or working very weak if you outnumber them, works better if severely outnumbered etc). Or just triggering on the outnumbered buff (Chill tactivator for ex, normal = normal, if you’re outnumbered the enemy affected doubly, if you outnumber enemy it doesn’t do anything).

i liked ab plenty but the map was waaay smaller so there was action around every corner.

This is something I’ve been thinking about for a good while now (year + actually, so before desert for those that wondered). Actually having smaller maps, to funnel the action more. Lots of interesting ways smaller maps could turn into, like a cityscape with multiple siege going on at all times, where people breach and defend on multiple fronts, but will channel the players into 2-3 spots, and running support with supply etc. Because that is where the fighting will be. (ex)

Even Alpine could be reduced a bit in size, just to get rid of the fairly useless north. Heck you could remove large part of north in Desert, and move the citadel/spawn points into the middle of the map (old oasis) to save space, stuff an OS arena in the middle that both can run straight into from spawn. (with some points stuff for controlling it)

There are already tools to use against larger forces. Namely, towers, keeps, walls in general. The problem is that, currently, they aren’t very useful tools. They hinder as much as they help.

It is important not to debuff things based on numbers…don’t want people telling others to go away.