Guild Wars 2

As a gw2 player since headstart, and a wvw player from shortly after that, im hoping that with the return of the alpine borderlands, there will also be a return to the older system of upgrades to camps n towers n such.

I stopped playing about 2 weeks after desert bls introduction and it wasnt just to do with the maps… it was just as much to do with the new auto upgrade system along with seemingly pointless “what id call” pve stuff..like ridiculous stealth from fountains and buffs from shrines etc.
I now just login for dailys and maybe some tp stuff..

wvw was great before the hot expansion… with only 2 major problems.. population imbalance and night capping (scoring system). Regardless, i loved it.

The announcement made today of the old maps comin back got me hyped as thats what ive been waiting for…. but please not with the hot stuff.. as i doubt it would get me to play again……..

Just bring back old wvw….. Please.

edit

drunk post please ignore

That might require some tweaking to the current WvW guild upgrades.

And if the guild structure was tweaked, we might get some of our solo/small guild scouts and defenders back.

At any rate, I’m with you.

Vanilla WvW as we knew from the beginning and fell in love with.

+1

I for one am not going to go back to doing all the upgrading for an entire server. No thx.

Kungsmurfen.2861:

I for one am not going to go back to doing all the upgrading for an entire server. No thx.

That’s fine, I’ll do it.

The only change the upgrade system ever needed was to change the gold cost to karma or badges. Auto upgrades and instant waypoints are a kittening joke.

Puck.9612:

Kungsmurfen.2861:

I for one am not going to go back to doing all the upgrading for an entire server. No thx.

That’s fine, I’ll do it.

The only change the upgrade system ever needed was to change the gold cost to karma or badges. Auto upgrades and instant waypoints are a kittening joke.

Your going to create an account on all servers and pay for everyone’s upgrades. Very noble.

Side note, a lot of us spent an extreme amount of currencies (gold/mats/badges/karma) on the WvW portion of the guild halls and for scribing. Are you going to be able to convince ANet to refund all of us?

I wasn’t in favor of auto-upgrades, the changes to the Yaks were much better though. That said never appreciated it when after spending a lot of coin upgrading a BL to have an enemy K-Train come along and just flip it back. Using badges and karma for the upgrades would have made sense but that time is past. It also might have further encouraged more K-Training versus fighting by people, but now with the reason that they needed the currency for the upgrades.

Do we have refund after loosing all our guild upgrade pre HoT when HoT was released ? no ….
Guild hall and guild upgrade are probably far more expensive that the old upgrade system.

All the new upgrade / guild upgrade is a big failure…. And give pve advantage in a pvp map for the most grinding guild… PvP world should not give so big advantage to people who farm like hell… And you can’t build your guild hall with WvW only…

On my side I didn’t use 1gold to those pve grind wall that is the guild hall….
It’s just so stupid to spend so much gold for this ! Donc cry to be refund, the first thing to do was to NOT upgrade your guild…. Anet build a piece of kitten, just don’t use it…

And for me it’s not a good thing to make WvW around Guild…. It’s not GvG….

TheGrimm.5624:

That said never appreciated it when after spending a lot of coin upgrading a BL to have an enemy K-Train come along and just flip it back.

That’s exactly why that system is necessary. You invested time and effort into the upgrades and you cared about defending them. No one kittening cares now.

Puck.9612:

TheGrimm.5624:

That said never appreciated it when after spending a lot of coin upgrading a BL to have an enemy K-Train come along and just flip it back.

That’s exactly why that system is necessary. You invested time and effort into the upgrades and you cared about defending them. No one kittening cares now.

yup +1

They’re obviously going to put in all the current systems.

Probably kitten more people off if they didn’t include the guild upgrades which a lot of guilds have worked on upgrading since HoT release.

Best you can hope for is they put the waypoint system of old back, and further tweak the tactivators. At least airship defense won’t be around.

For off hours with population disparity, all paying for upgrades did was make you realize that logging on when your server is outmanned is a waste of time.

It was a particularly vicious twisting of the knife.

If this gets implemented to pay for upgrades, I will just stop showing up when outnumbered.

Its out there now, people spend real $ on gems for the WvW guild upgrades. Hate that you don’t like them but there are still people that do. Seems like a “kitten ed if you do, kitten ed if you don’t” situation. Personally I don’t even want the old borderlands back but it looks like I am part of the minority.

In all honesty I really want OLD UPGRADE SYSTEM BACK WITH ALPLINE BLS AND THE OLD WP SYSTEM. Old wp system made things more interesting and strategic. I miss the wp spam on map chat when it open and enemy team forgets to tap the gate it made things MORE FUN!

I believe we need more rotation in WVW, meaning more maps,

I remember when HOT launched almost all of you bored to death by the alpine maps and most didn’t even play anymore.

Changing the mechanics or reverting to the old system will not resolve the issues at hand, they will only reduce the options ppl have in playing WVW.

Desert included new features some of you didn’t like those, but where is it said that you have to like all the features of a game to play it?

If you wish to revert to the old sytem then i would like a money back guarantee on all the upgrades my guild has and has bought or made for WvW, which other guilds do not make because it costs a buck too much.

I don’t have a prob with alpine maps in rotation with desert it would be awesome, maybe with a flying mod and bether rewards (ascendet and higher) because atm WvW is really not worth playing if you wish to get items back from it, its too expensive to build up and the return is rotten.

You’ll still have EBG to use these awful guild upgrades. If we’re caring about options so much at least give the people who don’t like chilling fog, p2w culling and banners some respite via the BLs.

When most players are sitting in a queue to get into ebg over 3 desert maps every day, there’s obviously a problem. While I don’t doubt a few like the new map, clearly a hella lot more hate it. So…

“Logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.”

While there are players who were bored of alpine, I know of players who outright left because it was gone, I know of players and commanders who preferred running on the alpine maps over ebg.

The bigger issue was/is players were/are bored with the current wvw mechanics, same stale matchups, lack of productive changes for years now, lack of proper rewards, population continued to go up in tiers or out entirely, leaving a lot of lower servers to just jump into ebg for action.

This really is no different than spvp players complaining about playing on the same conquest mode on the same boring maps for so long, they got stronghold type now too which they are not all happy about either.

You’re right changing the map won’t resolve the issues at hand, because the alpine map wasn’t the biggest problem facing wvw before HoT. But changing it to something unplayable didn’t help (long list of issues plus central area was laggy to players for months), it was the last straw in no hope for decent changes and they started leaving at a more rapid pace than before HoT.

Players were waiting on HoT for the big changes, hoping old players would come back and check the expansion out and maybe revitalize wvw (my server even had a meeting to discuss that), it didn’t happen, so those players who were waiting started leaving. Six months later nothing has changed except some rally mechanics from 5 to 1 and ppk.

Don’t agree that changing to alpine will reduce options to play (the desert map already did that), if anything might start getting people back on the borderlands and out of ebg for a change, until whatever major change is coming finally gets here.

I think it was mentioned by Anet somewhere that they currently don’t have a system in place to do auto map rotations, it needs to be done manually every time they want to make that change. It would be nice to have, but I’m not sure that’s a priority for them.

I wouldn’t worry about the guild hall upgrades, I’m sure that all current wvw mechanics will be implemented on the old map.

Puck.9612:

Kungsmurfen.2861:

I for one am not going to go back to doing all the upgrading for an entire server. No thx.

That’s fine, I’ll do it.

The only change the upgrade system ever needed was to change the gold cost to karma or badges. Auto upgrades and instant waypoints are a kittening joke.

I like and dislike this idea.

We all know that some mindless zergling isn’t going to cough up his precious badges or karma and contribute. The ones who will don’t typically zerg.

So with finite resources of karma/badges, it will eventually mean stuff just doesn’t get upgraded, because the regular upgraders ran out of badges.

I like it because it forces those selfless folks to go just have fun. But I don’t like it because at least with gold costs, some folks would send others funds in a pinch.

Plus badges for siege already ….

Y’know?

Edit: Per the OP, aside from the current hot gate and wall durability increase and sentry alert system, I agree, no hot stuff in alpine pls.

Jayne.9251:

Puck.9612:

Kungsmurfen.2861:

I for one am not going to go back to doing all the upgrading for an entire server. No thx.

That’s fine, I’ll do it.

The only change the upgrade system ever needed was to change the gold cost to karma or badges. Auto upgrades and instant waypoints are a kittening joke.

I like and dislike this idea.

We all know that some mindless zergling isn’t going to cough up his precious badges or karma and contribute. The ones who will don’t typically zerg.

So with finite resources of karma/badges, it will eventually mean stuff just doesn’t get upgraded, because the regular upgraders ran out of badges.

I like it because it forces those selfless folks to go just have fun. But I don’t like it because at least with gold costs, some folks would send others funds in a pinch.

Plus badges for siege already ….

Y’know?

Edit: Per the OP, aside from the current hot gate and wall durability increase and sentry alert system, I agree, no hot stuff in alpine pls.

I was thinking you would talk to the npc and there would be an option to pay with either karma or badges. Let the player decide.
There could always be a third option for gold for those that prefer that…. I’m just always sitting on millions of karma, even after converting several mill to gold I never run out because I get bored of clicking.

Agreed.

I enjoyed taking the time to nurse a structure to it’s full potential while having control of upgrades…

They would have to revert the whole game so that will nrot happen. Just remove all the tactivators, shield gens and PvE from the BLs.

As someone who has probably spent a legendaries worth of gold upgrading towers/keeps with absolutely zero thanks. Reward. Or even respect for it.

Nah. The upgrade system atleast needs to stay.

And the tactivators as well. Those are fun.

The shield gen is the ONLY thing we have to stop the alpine BL karma train from coming back (drop 2 trebs in a tower. Push the smaller zerg away with a bigger zerg. Destroy there keeps walls while they have absolutely NOTHING they can do about it).

Atleast the shield gens will help with treb spam. (You want our shield gens down you can walk into OUR arrow cart fire instead of the other way around). Maybe defending will actually mean something. it sure as HELL didn’t before HoT.

The new sentry system makes them actually useful. They can slow down yaks. And they can give away zergs. Gives roamers a purpose (Hey someone kill that sentry before we get there…no not 20 people god kitten it wheres a roaming group when we need it)

The new yak escort buff is pretty kitten mandatory if we don’t want to go back to how we were with 1 condi thief killing literally every yak on the map even if you have 3-4 people escorting the yak.

Many of there new systems WORK. They do exactly the job they were designed for. Getting rid of some of the WORST parts of WvW. Since there changing the BL anyway (and throwing away likely massive amounts of effort for the sake of pleasing the wvw community(Lol like we are EVER pleased)) lets see how the old map interacts with the new systems BEFORE we get our pitchforks and demand they burn down everything they have ever made.

I never really worried about the pay-to-upgrade system as I never upgraded anything. No-one defended it so it was a waste of gold.

I suppose that was one of the bonuses of solo roaming back then though – knowing that every fully upgraded camp you flipped wasted a fair sum of someone else’s money, and laughing at their insanity.

Something else I want to mention. I hope they do rework some of the towers and keeps. Add some ramparts like they have at garrison. People joke about how rangers are usually useless. And the release of druid didn’t do a whole lot to mitigate that. Part of the reason for that is when it comes to wall fights and fights inside keeps we tend to die rather quickly and our pets are generally useless.

One great thing about fire keep is there are many ways where you can go behind an enemy group and go up above them to shoot down. Giving you a way of contributing when your zerg pushed into them. But the old towers and keeps have little to nothing of that sort. Often the only space where a ranger could fight without getting hit by dozens of reflect fields was on a wall where all it took was a little pressure to push you out of the keep entirely.

Having the towers/keeps redesigned a little to account for more than the melee train and casters might go a long way towards offering more roles for defenders and attackers both. And open up some new strategies. As it is. Its likely going to be back to the days of trying to shoot through a dozen walls of reflections. Only now there are scrapper defense fields and aoe magnetic aura to worry about.

Auto-upgrades are fine imho, and honestly as someone who plays a lot of defense in off-hours, it’s REALLY nice to be able to not need to constantly run around in circles blowing my own currency for the sake of increasing defenses. It’s not interactive. It’s not fun. It’s just a meaningless expenditure justified only by playing for PPT. I’ve asked staunch defenders of the previous system to refresh siege to maintain it for prime time, and these same players refuse, asking for others to do it for them. The defenders and scouts doing this job largely didn’t enjoy it. They did it due to a sense of obligation and wanting to win.

Having the chance to go out and put pressure on enemies during this time to divert attention away from our objectives gives defensive play a bit more meaning than camping structures and asking for permission from a guy with a dorito (if any are even there) to spend supply on things.

The guild upgrades are really the problems I have with what changed in HoT aside from the DBL. These definitely demoralized my small WvW guild to a point of no longer playing.

There is something I missed in discounting the idea of player-initiated upgrades: the principle of agency. Apparently a sociology thing but it’s known in computer games to mean the ability of the player (sometimes AI too) to change the course of the game.

Upgrades gave single players a small way to change the outcome of the match. Much like using the +5 upgrade on your personal bank guild, it was often expensive but something in the reach of any player.

The lack of ability to affect the outcome of the match – due to outnumbering and server organisation – has been an issue for players right from the beginning, and perhaps any system that makes them feel like they can contribute is actually worth looking at.

Which would mean useful upgrades that are too expensive for small guilds to unlock are a bad thing, but being expensive to use once they are unlocked is maybe not so bad. And other things along similar lines.

So maybe the problem wasn’t that players had to spend gold to upgrade towers, it was that there was often nothing they could do to defend them.

That’s the thing: players CAN change the outcome of a match with auto-upgrades. The belief that upgrades are deterministic is complete BS, and frankly, upgrades are hard to shut down only because of the speedy yaks guild upgrade or when people are actively defending dolyaks, in which case, that’s a community effort to ensure/change the course of the game on both fronts. Denying yaks themselves is easy to do and rarely are they defended, meaning any contribution can be small. The problem will only get worse with speedy yaks, and as such, even the removal of the auto-upgrade system will not change this. If anything, it will make it worse, as then ensuring yaks reach their destination will have an even bigger impact on the game, meaning more guilds will do it.

Making it easy to unlock and hard to maintain is still flawed; it ultimately will act as a unsustainable force which will cause competition to be determined even further by those with the most numbers and richest players. Applied Strength/Fortitude were removed and increased supply capacity took a rank reduction because of this problem being perpetuated. There’s no reason to make it difficult to achieve at all; either these options need to be made extremely accessible or simply not available to remove this distinction.

As for being unable to defend them, it’s not really an issue to lose a tower 3 v 50. Or even 3 v 10 after a long siege. The problem about losing structures too easily is the exploitable safe spots for siege on certain structures. Fix those issues and defense becomes much more fair and matches realism and war strategy; siege tactics often hinged on running a keep dry of its resources and then launching an all-out-assault when the enemy was weak. There should be no reason for only a few people to hold off a blob, or for a tower to be impregnable if nobody leaves it to help smuggle in supply to rebuild siege or repair structural damage.

I completely agree that players’ ability to make a difference hasn’t changed significantly – the things that were taken away merely gave the illusion that they mattered.

So the solution isn’t really to bring back the same systems, but to provide ways to contribute that actually do matter.

Stand The Wall.6987:

is a dev
understands point of post
employs hot system anyway
wonders why no one plays
now has to find new job
repeats
wonders why
has to scrounge for food off of diner tables
wonders why
life is hard all over
oh well give em what they dont want cuz logic
and first world problems
check your privilege bro

i lol’d 10/10

Puck.9612:

TheGrimm.5624:

That said never appreciated it when after spending a lot of coin upgrading a BL to have an enemy K-Train come along and just flip it back.

That’s exactly why that system is necessary. You invested time and effort into the upgrades and you cared about defending them. No one kittening cares now.

THIS ^ If it doesn’t matter if you lose it why defend it? Oh yea.. All of those who took pride in “THEIR” keeps and towers and watched over them had their reason to play taken from them. Their money, time and effort put in to them is why the server responded to protect them.

gennyt.3428:

You’ll still have EBG to use these awful guild upgrades. If we’re caring about options so much at least give the people who don’t like chilling fog, p2w culling and banners some respite via the BLs.

They need to pull them from EBG too and give guilds something much better instead of this garbage for their money, time and effort put in to earning them. These were just very bad ideas from the beginning that should have never been implemented in actual game play.

lil devils x.6071:

Puck.9612:

TheGrimm.5624:

That said never appreciated it when after spending a lot of coin upgrading a BL to have an enemy K-Train come along and just flip it back.

That’s exactly why that system is necessary. You invested time and effort into the upgrades and you cared about defending them. No one kittening cares now.

THIS ^ If it doesn’t matter if you lose it why defend it? Oh yea.. All of those who took pride in “THEIR” keeps and towers and watched over them had their reason to play taken from them. Their money, time and effort put in to them is why the server responded to protect them.

Far more likely you invested time and gold into t3ing a tower. Desperately tried to defend it. But your cmdr was busy with his own pet project and all your gold dissapeared because the enemy zerg just droppd 6 guild catas and went through the wall like paper ANYWAY. Meaning the hours you spent defending it meant absolutely nothing.

Oh. And no your server isn’t going to reimburse you or thank you for upgrading that tower. Infact if you mention anything its far more likely you will be laughed at. Yeah I sure do miss THOSE days… /s

lil devils x.6071:

gennyt.3428:

You’ll still have EBG to use these awful guild upgrades. If we’re caring about options so much at least give the people who don’t like chilling fog, p2w culling and banners some respite via the BLs.

They need to pull them from EBG too and give guilds something much better instead of this garbage for their money, time and effort put in to earning them. These were just very bad ideas from the beginning that should have never been implemented in actual game play.

Gonna have to disagree here. Things like the chill field made outmanuvering an enemy zerg actually a thing. As there backline gets further stretched behind there aoe clearing frontline. Making it possible to defend with far fewer people as long as you can get organized enough to do it. Instead of just having this blob power through anything you try to put in there path through shear supply count.

The guild upgrades themselves are fine. If they need balancing that can be done. But getting rid of them entirely is just gonna make the fights go stale faster.

Shadelang.3012:

As someone who has probably spent a legendaries worth of gold upgrading towers/keeps with absolutely zero thanks. Reward. Or even respect for it.

Nah. The upgrade system atleast needs to stay.

And the tactivators as well. Those are fun.

The shield gen is the ONLY thing we have to stop the alpine BL karma train from coming back (drop 2 trebs in a tower. Push the smaller zerg away with a bigger zerg. Destroy there keeps walls while they have absolutely NOTHING they can do about it).

Atleast the shield gens will help with treb spam. (You want our shield gens down you can walk into OUR arrow cart fire instead of the other way around). Maybe defending will actually mean something. it sure as HELL didn’t before HoT.

The new sentry system makes them actually useful. They can slow down yaks. And they can give away zergs. Gives roamers a purpose (Hey someone kill that sentry before we get there…no not 20 people god kitten it wheres a roaming group when we need it)

The new yak escort buff is pretty kitten mandatory if we don’t want to go back to how we were with 1 condi thief killing literally every yak on the map even if you have 3-4 people escorting the yak.

Many of there new systems WORK. They do exactly the job they were designed for. Getting rid of some of the WORST parts of WvW. Since there changing the BL anyway (and throwing away likely massive amounts of effort for the sake of pleasing the wvw community(Lol like we are EVER pleased)) lets see how the old map interacts with the new systems BEFORE we get our pitchforks and demand they burn down everything they have ever made.

No you don’t. To stop the karma train, you need actual defenders and ARC’s – that is it. Shield Gens, like the tactivators, are just a crutch. If a keep is T3, gates are hard to get through.

Dusty Moon.4382:

Shadelang.3012:

As someone who has probably spent a legendaries worth of gold upgrading towers/keeps with absolutely zero thanks. Reward. Or even respect for it.

Nah. The upgrade system atleast needs to stay.

And the tactivators as well. Those are fun.

The shield gen is the ONLY thing we have to stop the alpine BL karma train from coming back (drop 2 trebs in a tower. Push the smaller zerg away with a bigger zerg. Destroy there keeps walls while they have absolutely NOTHING they can do about it).

Atleast the shield gens will help with treb spam. (You want our shield gens down you can walk into OUR arrow cart fire instead of the other way around). Maybe defending will actually mean something. it sure as HELL didn’t before HoT.

The new sentry system makes them actually useful. They can slow down yaks. And they can give away zergs. Gives roamers a purpose (Hey someone kill that sentry before we get there…no not 20 people god kitten it wheres a roaming group when we need it)

The new yak escort buff is pretty kitten mandatory if we don’t want to go back to how we were with 1 condi thief killing literally every yak on the map even if you have 3-4 people escorting the yak.

Many of there new systems WORK. They do exactly the job they were designed for. Getting rid of some of the WORST parts of WvW. Since there changing the BL anyway (and throwing away likely massive amounts of effort for the sake of pleasing the wvw community(Lol like we are EVER pleased)) lets see how the old map interacts with the new systems BEFORE we get our pitchforks and demand they burn down everything they have ever made.

No you don’t. To stop the karma train, you need actual defenders and ARC’s – that is it. Shield Gens, like the tactivators, are just a crutch. If a keep is T3, gates are hard to get through.

I guess we remember different games then. Because what I remember was watching the walls on my Garri fall after defending it non stop for 2 and a half hours with absolutely nothing to show for it. (Becuase we simply couldn’t reach there towers without being wiped) Simply because they had a big enough zerg we COULDN’T push them away from their tower. And they simply hard rezzed anyone that went down becuase we didn’t have enough people to push them off the bodies.

Numbers meant everything. If they had more than you then they kept you from their trebs and the tower that contained them.

What I said in my post was that I was HOPING that shield gens make a difference there. If we had had those back then MAYBE we could have held out long enough for the enemy zerg to either try something desperate (giving us a chance to actually wipe them) or forcing them to hit another location. Atleast giving us a tiny bit of satisfaction.

Shadelang.3012:

Dusty Moon.4382:

Shadelang.3012:

As someone who has probably spent a legendaries worth of gold upgrading towers/keeps with absolutely zero thanks. Reward. Or even respect for it.

Nah. The upgrade system atleast needs to stay.

And the tactivators as well. Those are fun.

The shield gen is the ONLY thing we have to stop the alpine BL karma train from coming back (drop 2 trebs in a tower. Push the smaller zerg away with a bigger zerg. Destroy there keeps walls while they have absolutely NOTHING they can do about it).

Atleast the shield gens will help with treb spam. (You want our shield gens down you can walk into OUR arrow cart fire instead of the other way around). Maybe defending will actually mean something. it sure as HELL didn’t before HoT.

The new sentry system makes them actually useful. They can slow down yaks. And they can give away zergs. Gives roamers a purpose (Hey someone kill that sentry before we get there…no not 20 people god kitten it wheres a roaming group when we need it)

The new yak escort buff is pretty kitten mandatory if we don’t want to go back to how we were with 1 condi thief killing literally every yak on the map even if you have 3-4 people escorting the yak.

Many of there new systems WORK. They do exactly the job they were designed for. Getting rid of some of the WORST parts of WvW. Since there changing the BL anyway (and throwing away likely massive amounts of effort for the sake of pleasing the wvw community(Lol like we are EVER pleased)) lets see how the old map interacts with the new systems BEFORE we get our pitchforks and demand they burn down everything they have ever made.

No you don’t. To stop the karma train, you need actual defenders and ARC’s – that is it. Shield Gens, like the tactivators, are just a crutch. If a keep is T3, gates are hard to get through.

I guess we remember different games then. Because what I remember was watching the walls on my Garri fall after defending it non stop for 2 and a half hours with absolutely nothing to show for it. (Becuase we simply couldn’t reach there towers without being wiped) Simply because they had a big enough zerg we COULDN’T push them away from there tower. And they simply hard rezzed anyone that went down becuase we didn’t have enough people to push them off the bodies.

Numbers meant everything. If they had more than you then they kept you from there trebs and the tower that contained them.

What I said in my post was that I was HOPING that shield gens make a difference there. If we had had those back then MAYBE we could have held out long enough for the enemy zerg to either try something desperate (giving us a chance to actually wipe them) or forcing them to hit another location. Atleast giving us a tiny bit of satisfaction.

I was on a Gari defense on ABL’s many times and the fights would go on for hours. It was a 50/50 chance that the Gari would fall. Most times as a defender we were outmanned and many times we would wipe the invaders and start again (I was on TC and in T1 at the time).

It is the difference that people have decided they don’t like the DBL’s (I think it is actually all the HoT add in stuff people don’t like) and there are no longer fights like that. It is easier to get into Gari from home base, on DBL’s, than it was on the ABL’s as the gates were closer together and the invaders can camp to pick the defenders coming in off.

Shield Gen’s add nothing. They are a crutch is all.

Dusty Moon.4382:

Shadelang.3012:

Dusty Moon.4382:

Shadelang.3012:

As someone who has probably spent a legendaries worth of gold upgrading towers/keeps with absolutely zero thanks. Reward. Or even respect for it.

Nah. The upgrade system atleast needs to stay.

And the tactivators as well. Those are fun.

The shield gen is the ONLY thing we have to stop the alpine BL karma train from coming back (drop 2 trebs in a tower. Push the smaller zerg away with a bigger zerg. Destroy there keeps walls while they have absolutely NOTHING they can do about it).

Atleast the shield gens will help with treb spam. (You want our shield gens down you can walk into OUR arrow cart fire instead of the other way around). Maybe defending will actually mean something. it sure as HELL didn’t before HoT.

The new sentry system makes them actually useful. They can slow down yaks. And they can give away zergs. Gives roamers a purpose (Hey someone kill that sentry before we get there…no not 20 people god kitten it wheres a roaming group when we need it)

The new yak escort buff is pretty kitten mandatory if we don’t want to go back to how we were with 1 condi thief killing literally every yak on the map even if you have 3-4 people escorting the yak.

Many of there new systems WORK. They do exactly the job they were designed for. Getting rid of some of the WORST parts of WvW. Since there changing the BL anyway (and throwing away likely massive amounts of effort for the sake of pleasing the wvw community(Lol like we are EVER pleased)) lets see how the old map interacts with the new systems BEFORE we get our pitchforks and demand they burn down everything they have ever made.

No you don’t. To stop the karma train, you need actual defenders and ARC’s – that is it. Shield Gens, like the tactivators, are just a crutch. If a keep is T3, gates are hard to get through.

I guess we remember different games then. Because what I remember was watching the walls on my Garri fall after defending it non stop for 2 and a half hours with absolutely nothing to show for it. (Becuase we simply couldn’t reach there towers without being wiped) Simply because they had a big enough zerg we COULDN’T push them away from there tower. And they simply hard rezzed anyone that went down becuase we didn’t have enough people to push them off the bodies.

Numbers meant everything. If they had more than you then they kept you from there trebs and the tower that contained them.

What I said in my post was that I was HOPING that shield gens make a difference there. If we had had those back then MAYBE we could have held out long enough for the enemy zerg to either try something desperate (giving us a chance to actually wipe them) or forcing them to hit another location. Atleast giving us a tiny bit of satisfaction.

I was on a Gari defense on ABL’s many times and the fights would go on for hours. It was a 50/50 chance that the Gari would fall. Most times as a defender we were outmanned and many times we would wipe the invaders and start again (I was on TC and in T1 at the time).

It is the difference that people have decided they don’t like the DBL’s (I think it is actually all the HoT add in stuff people don’t like) and there are no longer fights like that. It is easier to get into Gari from home base, on DBL’s, than it was on the ABL’s as the gates were closer together and the invaders can camp to pick the defenders coming in off.

Shield Gen’s add nothing. They are a crutch is all.

They are a tool. Thats all. How well the tool is used is up to the player using it. And the team that sets them up. Every shield gen build is one less place an arrow cart can be placed before siege cap hits. It gives a form of control when it comes to defending. But its abilities are also limited TO defense and control.

Shield gens are as much a “crutch” as arrow carts. Niether directly pushes the battle one way or the other. But one can be used to take away an opponents advantage. And the other can be used to augment your own. BOTH can be used to trap enemies in kill zones. Each can do either in different situations.

Saying to get rid of shield gens we might as well get rid of arrow carts to. I can actually think of alot of people that would be happy with that.

I disagree that shield gens are a cruch. I feel they fill a needed role in our inventory of siege without stepping on the toes of other siege. And without being directly over powered. They at MOST act as multipliers allowing you to buy time. How much time it buys will still depend on the supporting units you have in place. I.E. The other players and siege you have available. A shield gen alone is worthless on its own. As it can be easily overpowered (staggered treb shots. Even just player aoes). But with other units and players acting together with it it can turn the tide against a larger zerg thats trying to form a breach into your keep.

Edited to take out superfluous crap.

Edit 2: If we were to take out everything that could be considered a “crutch” there would only be catas and rams. No other form of siege. No tricks like stealth traps or supply traps. And the game would be that much more stale. Because people would have fewer things to try in order to beat the odds that are against them.

Shadelang.3012:

I guess we remember different games then. Because what I remember was watching the walls on my Garri fall after defending it non stop for 2 and a half hours with absolutely nothing to show for it.

A 2 and a half hour fight for a keep is a reward in itself compared to what HoT turned the game into…
Maybe that’s where you and I differ, I would upgrade and defend things because I enjoyed the battles like this that it led to (win or lose). I didn’t do it just to watch the PPT tick away.
If you want to sit in an empty keep all day and watch the enemy k-train move on by because they don’t feel like dealing with stupid kitten like the airship…. I just don’t know what to tell you… we obviously enjoy different things and will never agree on this subject.
However it does seem like the majority of the WvW player base agrees with me on this subject and prefer fights to PvE mechanics that discourage fights and lead to k-trains, so for the health of the game maybe you should just accept that the HoT system is hurting WvW and quit trying to defend it.

Puck.9612:

Shadelang.3012:

I guess we remember different games then. Because what I remember was watching the walls on my Garri fall after defending it non stop for 2 and a half hours with absolutely nothing to show for it.

A 2 and a half hour fight for a keep is a reward in itself compared to what HoT turned the game into…
Maybe that’s where you and I differ, I would upgrade and defend things because I enjoyed the battles like this that it led to (win or lose). I didn’t do it just to watch the PPT tick away.
If you want to sit in an empty keep all day and watch the enemy k-train move on by because they don’t feel like dealing with stupid kitten like the airship…. I just don’t know what to tell you… we obviously enjoy different things and will never agree on this subject.
However it does seem like the majority of the WvW player base agrees with me on this subject and prefer fights to PvE mechanics that discourage fights and lead to k-trains, so for the health of the game maybe you should just accept that the HoT system is hurting WvW and quit trying to defend it.

When did I say I want that. I perhaps phrased my point wrong. That was 2 and a half hours of doing NOTHING. of sitting there dumping supply into a wall hoping more people would log on. Because my server simply didn’t have the numbers to succesfully push out. So all we could do was repair the wall the trebs were hitting for 2 and a half hours until they eventually just took and held every camp on the map and we were drained dry.

If it had been two and a half hours of fighting I would have been ECSTATIC. I would have spent the rest of that game session in a good mood likely because that would have been incredibly fun.

But that isn’t what I got. It was 2 and a half hours of frustration. Of listening to my entire server have a mental breakdown in the teamspeak. All because there simply wasn’t anything we could do at that time. We just didn’t have the tools to make a difference.

Edit: Thats the reason I am advocating* for atleast some of the new systems to say. The shield generator especially. If we could have defending the wall from the trebs with say 2 shield gens. The rest of our people would have been free to start making attacks on the tower.

WIth the new rules on down and rallying. Every player those guys killed would have stayed dead as long as they could keep the zerg in time. Since we would have been closer to our spawn our smaller group would get reinforcments faster than their larger one. And when one of ours died it wouldn’t have had this massive effect of “god you just rallied 5 of them”.

With the new sentries the players that werent suited to zerg fighting could likely have spotted many of their* respawns as they ran near the sentry in the ruin and by the southern camps before they hit the lowlands between the lower keeps, and killed them as they were otw to the murderball.

But we didn’t have that option because the tools we needed for it to work didn’t exist at the time.

Shadelang.3012:

Puck.9612:

Shadelang.3012:

I guess we remember different games then. Because what I remember was watching the walls on my Garri fall after defending it non stop for 2 and a half hours with absolutely nothing to show for it.

A 2 and a half hour fight for a keep is a reward in itself compared to what HoT turned the game into…
Maybe that’s where you and I differ, I would upgrade and defend things because I enjoyed the battles like this that it led to (win or lose). I didn’t do it just to watch the PPT tick away.
If you want to sit in an empty keep all day and watch the enemy k-train move on by because they don’t feel like dealing with stupid kitten like the airship…. I just don’t know what to tell you… we obviously enjoy different things and will never agree on this subject.
However it does seem like the majority of the WvW player base agrees with me on this subject and prefer fights to PvE mechanics that discourage fights and lead to k-trains, so for the health of the game maybe you should just accept that the HoT system is hurting WvW and quit trying to defend it.

When did I say I want that. I perhaps phrased my point wrong. That was 2 and a half hours of doing NOTHING. of sitting there dumping supply into a wall hoping more people would log on. Because my server simply didn’t have the numbers to succesfully push out. So all we could do was repair the wall the trebs were hitting for 2 and a half hours until they eventually just took and held every camp on the map and we were drained dry.

If it had been two and a half hours of fighting I would have been ECSTATIC. I would have spent the rest of that game session in a good mood likely because that would have been incredibly fun.

But that isn’t what I got. It was 2 and a half hours of frustration. Of listening to my entire server have a mental breakdown in the teamspeak. All because there simply wasn’t anything we could do at that time. We just didn’t have the tools to make a difference.

Why were you dumping supply into a wall that was being trebbed instead of building counter siege, or sending players to go make attempts on their keeps to try and draw them off the map? If you spent 2 hours repairing a wall that is more your fault than it is the games.

Really what you are complaining about there is how unbalanced the matches and populations can be. That has nothing to do with pre vs. post HoT systems. That same scenario can still happen now, it just rarely does because no one cares enough to spend 2+ hours on a keep when the enemy server will get their WP back immediately.

If the defense is adequate the attackers move on, if the attackers are too much for the defenders they give up immediately. How does this equate to a better system in your mind?

Puck.9612:

Shadelang.3012:

Puck.9612:

Shadelang.3012:

I guess we remember different games then. Because what I remember was watching the walls on my Garri fall after defending it non stop for 2 and a half hours with absolutely nothing to show for it.

A 2 and a half hour fight for a keep is a reward in itself compared to what HoT turned the game into…
Maybe that’s where you and I differ, I would upgrade and defend things because I enjoyed the battles like this that it led to (win or lose). I didn’t do it just to watch the PPT tick away.
If you want to sit in an empty keep all day and watch the enemy k-train move on by because they don’t feel like dealing with stupid kitten like the airship…. I just don’t know what to tell you… we obviously enjoy different things and will never agree on this subject.
However it does seem like the majority of the WvW player base agrees with me on this subject and prefer fights to PvE mechanics that discourage fights and lead to k-trains, so for the health of the game maybe you should just accept that the HoT system is hurting WvW and quit trying to defend it.

When did I say I want that. I perhaps phrased my point wrong. That was 2 and a half hours of doing NOTHING. of sitting there dumping supply into a wall hoping more people would log on. Because my server simply didn’t have the numbers to succesfully push out. So all we could do was repair the wall the trebs were hitting for 2 and a half hours until they eventually just took and held every camp on the map and we were drained dry.

If it had been two and a half hours of fighting I would have been ECSTATIC. I would have spent the rest of that game session in a good mood likely because that would have been incredibly fun.

But that isn’t what I got. It was 2 and a half hours of frustration. Of listening to my entire server have a mental breakdown in the teamspeak. All because there simply wasn’t anything we could do at that time. We just didn’t have the tools to make a difference.

Why were you dumping supply into a wall that was being trebbed instead of building counter siege, or sending players to go make attempts on their keeps to try and draw them off the map? If you spent 2 hours repairing a wall that is more your fault than it is the games.

Really what you are complaining about there is how unbalanced the matches and populations can be. That has nothing to do with pre vs. post HoT systems. That same scenario can still happen now, it just rarely does because no one cares enough to spend 2+ hours on a keep when the enemy server will get their WP back immediately.

If the defense is adequate the attackers move on, if the attackers are too much for the defenders they give up immediately. How does this equate to a better system in your mind?

We were dumping supply into it hoping more people would log on and join. We didn’t build counter siege because counter siege can’t hit that tower without being hit by the trebs they arleady had build. But hey if we had SHIELD GENS we could have built those behind the wall to cover the build locations until we started counter trebbing. And we could atleast have forced a stalemate.

And yes the same situation could happen. But the attacks then could have tried a heavier assault. Getting up catas for example to hit other walls. Things that would have broken the stalemate one way or the other. Forced atleast a little action.

“If the defense is adequate the attackers move on, if the attackers are too much for the defenders they give up immediately. How does this equate to a better system in your mind?”

And how would it be ANY different WITHOUT the new systems? Wouldn’t it still play out exactly the same? Then wouldn’t giving players more tools to use to try to break the stagnancy be a good thing instead of taking them away?

The population imbalance isn’t something I ever see getting fixed until server mergers are a thing or they bring the megaserver system to WvW. Something last I checked was spoken against pretty heavily. Even if people come back to WvW that isn’t gonna fix THAT issue (People will still cram into kitten. And after that swarm whichever server is winning. So I am going to assume it will be there forever. And assume it as a constant any time the subject comes up.

Shadelang.3012:

Edit: Thats the reason I am advocating* for atleast some of the new systems to say. The shield generator especially. If we could have defending the wall from the trebs with say 2 shield gens. The rest of our people would have been free to start making attacks on the tower.

If you had shield generators to completely nullify their trebs they wouldn’t have stuck around for a 2+ hour siege so everything else you said is irrelevant. They would have just moved on to something easy and there would be very little action anywhere. Sounds super fun, I bet people would love to log on for that. That is clearly why WvW is doing so well since HoT dropped.

Think about it, you had a force that severely outnumbered you and it still took them over 2 hours to bust a WP’d keep. That is an incredibly long time for a video game, and you are trying to argue that somehow that wasn’t fair for your side because of the mechanics….. really?

Puck.9612:

Shadelang.3012:

Edit: Thats the reason I am advocating* for atleast some of the new systems to say. The shield generator especially. If we could have defending the wall from the trebs with say 2 shield gens. The rest of our people would have been free to start making attacks on the tower.

If you had shield generators to completely nullify their trebs they wouldn’t have stuck around for a 2+ hour siege so everything else you said is irrelevant. They would have just moved on to something easy and there would be very little action anywhere. Sounds super fun, I bet people would love to log on for that. That is clearly why WvW is doing so well since HoT dropped.

Think about it, you had a force that severely outnumbered you and it still took them over 2 hours to bust a WP’d keep. That is an incredibly long time for a video game, and you are trying to argue that somehow that wasn’t fair for your side because of the mechanics….. really?

No thats not what I am trying to argue at all. I am not gonna say that we “Should” have won that fight in any way shape or form. We were out manned pretty heavily as you said. What I am saying is that there wasn’t any fun there ANYWAY. We held them. But none of us enjoyed doing it. Which made it less likely that any of us would be willing to go through it again.

I fully agree that we should have lost it. It just makes sense. But a feeling of helplessness if a video game is NOT a good thing.

Edit: I am guessing what I am trying to say is. Whether we won or not that situation was still simply unfun due to the frustration of not having an option. I am not even gonna say that shield gens would have magically saved us either. They wouldn’t have. They could have just built more trebs and hit too many walls for us to cover pretty easily. Or brought in golems to smash down the door. But atleast we could have enjoyed fighting the golems before we died anyway.

Shadelang.3012:

“If the defense is adequate the attackers move on, if the attackers are too much for the defenders they give up immediately. How does this equate to a better system in your mind?”

And how would it be ANY different WITHOUT the new systems? Wouldn’t it still play out exactly the same? Then wouldn’t giving players more tools to use to try to break the stagnancy be a good thing instead of taking them away?

It clearly wouldn’t play out the same way. Your own story of spending 2 and a half hours defending a keep is proof of that. Players were more invested in their keeps before and would do everything they could to fight for them, just as attackers were more interested in breaking their WP’s to take deny them the ability to quickly travel around the map.
The system you are arguing for has failed hard. Yes WvW was slowly losing players due to stagnation but HoT drove off probably a good 50% (or more) of the remaining players. New content should excite people, not drive them off in record numbers.

Puck.9612:

Shadelang.3012:

“If the defense is adequate the attackers move on, if the attackers are too much for the defenders they give up immediately. How does this equate to a better system in your mind?”

And how would it be ANY different WITHOUT the new systems? Wouldn’t it still play out exactly the same? Then wouldn’t giving players more tools to use to try to break the stagnancy be a good thing instead of taking them away?

It clearly wouldn’t play out the same way. Your own story of spending 2 and a half hours defending a keep is proof of that. Players were more invested in their keeps before and would do everything they could to fight for them, just as attackers were more interested in breaking their WP’s to take deny them the ability to quickly travel around the map.
The system you are arguing for has failed hard. Yes WvW was slowly losing players due to stagnation but HoT drove off probably a good 50% (or more) of the remaining players. New content should excite people, not drive them off in record numbers.

Sure. I am not going to claim to know teh exact numbers of people that did or didn’t leave (And niether should anyone we simply don’t have the numbers) But I will agree that HOT WvW has fewer players than we did before. But a large part of that was the Desert Borderlands itself. And a self fulfilling prophecy on the part of the players (Lets face it there were alot of us that didn’t even TRY the new stuff before hating it).

The desert borderlands are changing. And after that change theyl be swapped back to the alpine borderlands. Lets See what happens BEFORE we start taking tools away from players. We can see how the new stuff players out with the old maps BEFORE we set up to burn the world down…again.

Edit: As for people being more invested in keeps. I think that was in part simply because people cared more in general. It wasn’t the HoT systems that stopped that. It was weeks of people trash talking the game and down trodding on anyone that might actually enjoy the new content. And months of forum posts acting as a wellspring of misery for anyone that wanted to come and actually talk about the game. We did it to ourselves as much as the game did. A large amount of the population just stopped caring about the game in general. Not just the keeps.

Shadelang.3012:

Puck.9612:

Shadelang.3012:

Edit: Thats the reason I am advocating* for atleast some of the new systems to say. The shield generator especially. If we could have defending the wall from the trebs with say 2 shield gens. The rest of our people would have been free to start making attacks on the tower.

If you had shield generators to completely nullify their trebs they wouldn’t have stuck around for a 2+ hour siege so everything else you said is irrelevant. They would have just moved on to something easy and there would be very little action anywhere. Sounds super fun, I bet people would love to log on for that. That is clearly why WvW is doing so well since HoT dropped.

Think about it, you had a force that severely outnumbered you and it still took them over 2 hours to bust a WP’d keep. That is an incredibly long time for a video game, and you are trying to argue that somehow that wasn’t fair for your side because of the mechanics….. really?

No thats not what I am trying to argue at all. I am not gonna say that we “Should” have won that fight in any way shape or form. We were out manned pretty heavily as you said. What I am saying is that there wasn’t any fun there ANYWAY. We held them. But none of us enjoyed doing it. Which made it less likely that any of us would be willing to go through it again.

I fully agree that we should have lost it. It just makes sense. But a feeling of helplessness if a video game is NOT a good thing.

At this point I’m convinced you don’t know what you want. What exactly would make you feel all warm and fuzzy about losing a keep to vastly superior numbers?
If it’s pulling a lever and having PvE gimmicks like an airship to come and bomb them for you then maybe you are playing the wrong game mode.

Puck.9612:

Shadelang.3012:

Puck.9612:

Shadelang.3012:

Edit: Thats the reason I am advocating* for atleast some of the new systems to say. The shield generator especially. If we could have defending the wall from the trebs with say 2 shield gens. The rest of our people would have been free to start making attacks on the tower.

If you had shield generators to completely nullify their trebs they wouldn’t have stuck around for a 2+ hour siege so everything else you said is irrelevant. They would have just moved on to something easy and there would be very little action anywhere. Sounds super fun, I bet people would love to log on for that. That is clearly why WvW is doing so well since HoT dropped.

Think about it, you had a force that severely outnumbered you and it still took them over 2 hours to bust a WP’d keep. That is an incredibly long time for a video game, and you are trying to argue that somehow that wasn’t fair for your side because of the mechanics….. really?

No thats not what I am trying to argue at all. I am not gonna say that we “Should” have won that fight in any way shape or form. We were out manned pretty heavily as you said. What I am saying is that there wasn’t any fun there ANYWAY. We held them. But none of us enjoyed doing it. Which made it less likely that any of us would be willing to go through it again.

I fully agree that we should have lost it. It just makes sense. But a feeling of helplessness if a video game is NOT a good thing.

At this point I’m convinced you don’t know what you want. What exactly would make you feel all warm and fuzzy about losing a keep to vastly superior numbers?
If it’s pulling a lever and having PvE gimmicks like an airship to come and bomb them for you then maybe you are playing the wrong game mode.

Quite litteraly all I have argued against is taking away EVERYTHING that HoT brought all at once. Start with the biggest offender. The map. THEN see if any of the other things are actually issues. You can see what many of the new stuff was built to address. But its hard to see if they actually DO anything to address those problems in the current state of the game. We can get rid of them if their* harmful for the game once we know for a fact that they are. Not just that their* tied into HoT and bad by default.

Edit: I mean hell. Even the scientific method we all learned back in GRADE school taught to change things one at a time or you may not learn what actually made the change you observed.

Shadelang.3012:

Puck.9612:

Shadelang.3012:

Puck.9612:

Shadelang.3012:

Edit: Thats the reason I am advocating* for atleast some of the new systems to say. The shield generator especially. If we could have defending the wall from the trebs with say 2 shield gens. The rest of our people would have been free to start making attacks on the tower.

If you had shield generators to completely nullify their trebs they wouldn’t have stuck around for a 2+ hour siege so everything else you said is irrelevant. They would have just moved on to something easy and there would be very little action anywhere. Sounds super fun, I bet people would love to log on for that. That is clearly why WvW is doing so well since HoT dropped.

Think about it, you had a force that severely outnumbered you and it still took them over 2 hours to bust a WP’d keep. That is an incredibly long time for a video game, and you are trying to argue that somehow that wasn’t fair for your side because of the mechanics….. really?

No thats not what I am trying to argue at all. I am not gonna say that we “Should” have won that fight in any way shape or form. We were out manned pretty heavily as you said. What I am saying is that there wasn’t any fun there ANYWAY. We held them. But none of us enjoyed doing it. Which made it less likely that any of us would be willing to go through it again.

I fully agree that we should have lost it. It just makes sense. But a feeling of helplessness if a video game is NOT a good thing.

At this point I’m convinced you don’t know what you want. What exactly would make you feel all warm and fuzzy about losing a keep to vastly superior numbers?
If it’s pulling a lever and having PvE gimmicks like an airship to come and bomb them for you then maybe you are playing the wrong game mode.

Quite litteraly all I have argued against is taking away EVERYTHING that HoT brought all at once. Start with the biggest offender. The map. THEN see if any of the other things are actually issues. You can see what many of the new stuff was built to address. But its hard to see if they actually DO anything to address those problems in the current state of the game. We can get rid of them if their* harmful for the game once we know for a fact that they are. Not just that their* tied into HoT and bad by default.

Edit: I mean hell. Even the scientific method we all learned back in GRADE school taught to change things one at a time or you may not learn what actually made the change you observed.

We’ve literally already tested every one of these changes on EB….. Just to clarify…. EB is a pre-existing map….

Puck.9612:

Shadelang.3012:

Puck.9612:

Shadelang.3012:

Puck.9612:

Shadelang.3012:

Edit: Thats the reason I am advocating* for atleast some of the new systems to say. The shield generator especially. If we could have defending the wall from the trebs with say 2 shield gens. The rest of our people would have been free to start making attacks on the tower.

If you had shield generators to completely nullify their trebs they wouldn’t have stuck around for a 2+ hour siege so everything else you said is irrelevant. They would have just moved on to something easy and there would be very little action anywhere. Sounds super fun, I bet people would love to log on for that. That is clearly why WvW is doing so well since HoT dropped.

Think about it, you had a force that severely outnumbered you and it still took them over 2 hours to bust a WP’d keep. That is an incredibly long time for a video game, and you are trying to argue that somehow that wasn’t fair for your side because of the mechanics….. really?

No thats not what I am trying to argue at all. I am not gonna say that we “Should” have won that fight in any way shape or form. We were out manned pretty heavily as you said. What I am saying is that there wasn’t any fun there ANYWAY. We held them. But none of us enjoyed doing it. Which made it less likely that any of us would be willing to go through it again.

I fully agree that we should have lost it. It just makes sense. But a feeling of helplessness if a video game is NOT a good thing.

At this point I’m convinced you don’t know what you want. What exactly would make you feel all warm and fuzzy about losing a keep to vastly superior numbers?
If it’s pulling a lever and having PvE gimmicks like an airship to come and bomb them for you then maybe you are playing the wrong game mode.

Quite litteraly all I have argued against is taking away EVERYTHING that HoT brought all at once. Start with the biggest offender. The map. THEN see if any of the other things are actually issues. You can see what many of the new stuff was built to address. But its hard to see if they actually DO anything to address those problems in the current state of the game. We can get rid of them if their* harmful for the game once we know for a fact that they are. Not just that their* tied into HoT and bad by default.

Edit: I mean hell. Even the scientific method we all learned back in GRADE school taught to change things one at a time or you may not learn what actually made the change you observed.

We’ve literally already tested every one of these changes on EB….. Just to clarify…. EB is a pre-existing map….

Yes. And I and my friends atleast have had positive interactions with most of them. The airship wasn’t some massive game changer unless we made it into one (Meaning it was still our own gameplay that made it into more than just a lightshow). The chill field bought time but was easily counterable and didn’t do much more that limit mobility for a short time.

The auto upgrade system has been a godsend to me. And the yak escort buff made it possible to protect yaks from things like permastealth condi thieves. Forcing them to fight me first. Making escorting a yak actually have meaning.

The shield generator’s help deal with treb spam from red keep. (from the treb locations that cant be reached with aoes) But there still bypassable. And they don’t prevent SMC from being taken by any means. They just make it so that a more personal approach is necessary (Meaning fights are more likely) rather than letting trebs do all the work for you.

Sentries actually have purpose. Which they havn’t since day 1 besides granting a bit of free karma. They were more useful to the enemy team than they were to there own team (Clearing one side of sentries to trick the team they belong to sending scouts there while you hit something on the other side of the map).

The biggest offenders I saw were dragon banners and speedy yaks. Both of which I FULLY AGREE need to be tuned down. Or if they still stay game breaking can be reworked. But there are aspects of the system that are more beneficial than harmful. And its those I want to preserve.

Edit: The Bomb on the supply hut is also once of THE most satisfying things to have work when you watch an enemy zerg steamroll a location you just spent an hour escorting yaks to. Atleast you cost them something for it. Supply if nothing else forcing them to restock elsewhere.

Shadelang.3012:

Puck.9612:

Shadelang.3012:

Puck.9612:

Shadelang.3012:

Puck.9612:

Shadelang.3012:

Edit: Thats the reason I am advocating* for atleast some of the new systems to say. The shield generator especially. If we could have defending the wall from the trebs with say 2 shield gens. The rest of our people would have been free to start making attacks on the tower.

If you had shield generators to completely nullify their trebs they wouldn’t have stuck around for a 2+ hour siege so everything else you said is irrelevant. They would have just moved on to something easy and there would be very little action anywhere. Sounds super fun, I bet people would love to log on for that. That is clearly why WvW is doing so well since HoT dropped.

Think about it, you had a force that severely outnumbered you and it still took them over 2 hours to bust a WP’d keep. That is an incredibly long time for a video game, and you are trying to argue that somehow that wasn’t fair for your side because of the mechanics….. really?

No thats not what I am trying to argue at all. I am not gonna say that we “Should” have won that fight in any way shape or form. We were out manned pretty heavily as you said. What I am saying is that there wasn’t any fun there ANYWAY. We held them. But none of us enjoyed doing it. Which made it less likely that any of us would be willing to go through it again.

I fully agree that we should have lost it. It just makes sense. But a feeling of helplessness if a video game is NOT a good thing.

At this point I’m convinced you don’t know what you want. What exactly would make you feel all warm and fuzzy about losing a keep to vastly superior numbers?
If it’s pulling a lever and having PvE gimmicks like an airship to come and bomb them for you then maybe you are playing the wrong game mode.

Quite litteraly all I have argued against is taking away EVERYTHING that HoT brought all at once. Start with the biggest offender. The map. THEN see if any of the other things are actually issues. You can see what many of the new stuff was built to address. But its hard to see if they actually DO anything to address those problems in the current state of the game. We can get rid of them if their* harmful for the game once we know for a fact that they are. Not just that their* tied into HoT and bad by default.

Edit: I mean hell. Even the scientific method we all learned back in GRADE school taught to change things one at a time or you may not learn what actually made the change you observed.

We’ve literally already tested every one of these changes on EB….. Just to clarify…. EB is a pre-existing map….

Yes. And I and my friends atleast have had positive interactions with most of them. The airship wasn’t some massive game changer unless we made it into one (Meaning it was still our own gameplay that made it into more than just a lightshow). The chill field bought time but was easily counterable and didn’t do much more that limit mobility for a short time.

The auto upgrade system has been a godsend to me. And the yak escort buff made it possible to protect yaks from things like permastealth condi thieves. Forcing them to fight me first. Making escorting a yak actually have meaning.

The shield generator’s help deal with treb spam from red keep. (from the treb locations that cant be reached with aoes) But there still bypassable. And they don’t prevent SMC from being taken by any means. They just make it so that a more personal approach is necessary (Meaning fights are more likely) rather than letting trebs do all the work for you.

Sentries actually have purpose. Which they havn’t since day 1 besides granting a bit of free karma. They were more useful to the enemy team than they were to there own team (Clearing one side of sentries to trick the team they belong to sending scouts there while you hit something on the other side of the map).

The biggest offenders I saw were dragon banners and speedy yaks. Both of which I FULLY AGREE need to be tuned down. Or if they still stay game breaking can be reworked. But there are aspects of the system that are more beneficial than harmful. And its those I wan’t to preserve.

Edit: The Bomb on the supply hut is also once of THE most satisfying things to have work when you watch and enemy zerg steamroll a location you just spent an hour escorting yaks to. Atleast you cost them something for it. Supply if nothing else forcing them to restock elsewhere.

You and a handful of other enjoy it but you are in the minority.
I bet if they gave siege razor some minions to build and man siege for him and let him k-train the whole map, there would be plenty of PvE players that enjoyed that too. Maybe when you joined his squad it gave you an option to auto follow him and spam skills like an eotm zergling anytime you got near an enemy.
That way all you would have to do is log onto the game and let it play itself. Plenty of rewards, no thinking involved.
Maybe that could have been the solution for when you were hopelessly outmanned at garri. They would have had to break off some of the zerg to deal with siegerazor’s k-train.
I personally think it would be ridiculous but it’s no more ridiculous than having sentries do the work of scouts or having structures upgrade on their own.

And tell me puck. How much gold did you YOURSELF sink into upgrading towers and camps?

I can say with some certainty its atleast over a thousand for me. Even if it swaps back I probably won’t be helping out with that anymore. Most of the times I upgraded things it was simply because time had passed and no one else had bothered. Partly because it was felt that defending and objective simply had no meaning. After all there wasn’t any point in trying to hold a tower against a larger group unless you had an organized group yourself…atleast in the eyes of the player base.

You seem pretty eager to throw the word PvE around as if it means something. And your last few points its been pretty clear you don’t hold much respect for my opinion. (You aren’t exactly subtle)

I would list my credentials but the simple fact is you wouldn’t care. You have already made your decision. And you aren’t really reading what I am typing except to pick at it. Its pretty obvious in how your replies are now mostly thinly veiled insults.

Speaking of minority. I wonder how much of the playerbase actually CARES enough to come on to the forums to talk about the game. Last I checked the number of people that even got on to forums in the first place WERE the minority. So that in itself has no meaning here.

Sentries doing the work of scouts? No. Its sentries having a purpose and giving scouts the basic knowledge they need to do their job. (This sentry is alive. Meaning the enemies are probably gonna go through X route to get to Y Tower/Keep) it doesn’t take away anything from scouts. Sentries cover TINY portions of the map. But they cover routes letting the scouts focus on routes that AREN’T covered. And telling them what places are more at risk than others.

Structures getting upgraded on there own was purely a quality of life decision. After literally years of a select few people throwing gold in and getting nothing out of it. It wasn’t the Majority that upgraded towers and camps. It was the minority that happened to notice (Hey this isn’t upgrading and its full of supply. Let me do something with it)

Everything else in your post is pure vitriol in the hopes of discrediting the person your talking to. And your not even that good at hiding it.