Guild Wars 2

Can you reflect reflected projectiles?

selan.8354:

Phi Is Sly.1857:

Ill just leave my video here again, i can add clips of meteor shower ect killing me in 1 shot also if u like. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PB6zdwc7iWY&list=UUM8NqxY8uiOsuc-JFj22SoA&feature=c4-overview

yeah i get 1shot sometimes by usng feedback on a retal zerg with lots of projectiles….

LOL no, thats retilation lol………………………………..

They already nerfed retaliation many times its useless.

Azelroth.6801:

Why complain about retal when there are very easy counters to it?

Boon strips and conversions. Retal = gone.

Instead of complaining – work with the ready available counters in the game. That’s what they’re there for.

This is just silly. There are FAR more ways to produce a light field and then blast than there are boon strips. It’s harder to NOT get retal in a large group than it is to get it (not exaggerating).

O lol that retal vid is funny, i love retal, keep it that way

Aberrant.6749:

Azelroth.6801:

Why complain about retal when there are very easy counters to it?

Boon strips and conversions. Retal = gone.

Instead of complaining – work with the ready available counters in the game. That’s what they’re there for.

This is just silly. There are FAR more ways to produce a light field and then blast than there are boon strips. It’s harder to NOT get retal in a large group than it is to get it (not exaggerating).

That only produces AoE retal.

Easy counter – positioning. If you’re not in the combo field you won’t get hit by AoE retal.

Just do what Anet wants you to do, and roll a warrior or guardian or necro, or just use your ele skills to produce fields (let the warriors and guards run over the enemy zerg and collect your loot bags if you managed to tag anyone whilst avoiding dieing to retal).

great video for everyone who is crying about the aoe cap

I wish retal did a % of damage per hit instead of what it does now. What other boon basically allows you to kill ppl without doing anything else?

rivx.3267:

I wish retal did a % of damage per hit instead of what it does now. What other boon basically allows you to kill ppl without doing anything else?

A number of us have been asking for this, with the damage being 50% of what the player takes. But then you have retaliation spammers who love its OP nature who say it would effectively nerf retaliation into uselessness.

In this game there is very little that an individual player, or group of un-coordinated individuals, can do to counter a coordinated team. A melee ball with constant retaliation that frustrates aoe-ing militia is just one example of this. But this does not mean that retaliation is overpowered, it means that a coordinated team has an advantage against an un-coordinated one, which is how it should be.

Retaliation is a perfectly counterable and desirable layer of complexity in fights between coordinated teams. Retaliation is assumed to be up unless it is explicitly stripped, and so certain skills (for example, whirling wrath) cannot be profitably used at just any old time. Using boon strips to create a window for powerful yet retal-vulnerable skills is very important coordination.

The only time that retaliation has been a problem for me in this game, is using barrage with ranger, and that was pre retal nerf. Though ranger still gets drilled by it when using barrage.

Retaliation has never been a problem for me with any other class. Though I do hear flamethrower engineers get annihilated. And I suppose fiery rush (FGS 4) would get destroyed too but not many run that willingly into the middle of a zerg.

To be honest retaliation is just one of those things in the background, not sure how this is a big deal.

tom.7468:

They already nerfed retaliation many times its useless.

Then its time they redesigned it.

Give it an icd and now you have a baseline of how often it procs. Fasthitting and AoE attacks dont receive absurd amounts of procs, which is why the damage is kept low.

And now the damage returned can be buffed for the sake of smaller/solo fights, and also punish slow/hard-hitting attacks more then it does now and fasthitting/aoe less then it does now.
The only one that would lose are big blobs that mindlessly stack Retaliation, and let that just be the one thing we’d like to nerf.

And consider this, if the server doesnt have to process 40 instances of Retaliation proccing instantly anymore, that would help with performance aswell.

Azelroth.6801:

Aberrant.6749:

Azelroth.6801:

Why complain about retal when there are very easy counters to it?

Boon strips and conversions. Retal = gone.

Instead of complaining – work with the ready available counters in the game. That’s what they’re there for.

This is just silly. There are FAR more ways to produce a light field and then blast than there are boon strips. It’s harder to NOT get retal in a large group than it is to get it (not exaggerating).

That only produces AoE retal.

Easy counter – positioning. If you’re not in the combo field you won’t get hit by AoE retal.

Leap through light or blasting might will give you the buff. It’s not as if you walk outside of the field and it goes away. Leaping through gives 5s and blasting a light field gives 3s aoe retal. It stacks up very quickly when you include things like shouts etc. that also give retal. I’ve walked out of large fights with 15s+ of retal still left on me far too many times.

Terrahero.9358:

tom.7468:

They already nerfed retaliation many times its useless.

Then its time they redesigned it.

Give it an icd and now you have a baseline of how often it procs. Fasthitting and AoE attacks dont receive absurd amounts of procs, which is why the damage is kept low.

And now the damage returned can be buffed for the sake of smaller/solo fights, and also punish slow/hard-hitting attacks more then it does now and fasthitting/aoe less then it does now.
The only one that would lose are big blobs that mindlessly stack Retaliation, and let that just be the one thing we’d like to nerf.

And consider this, if the server doesnt have to process 40 instances of Retaliation proccing instantly anymore, that would help with performance aswell.

Sounds like a good and balanced approach to me

Dear ANet, I am an AoE spammer and I want you to remove the only abilities that moderate AoE use.

Straegen.2938:

Dear ANet, I am an AoE spammer and I want you to remove the only abilities that moderate AoE use.

1) AoE is suppose to be effective against clumped up groups of enemies, but is in WvW being countered by clumped up groups of enemies.
2) Clumping up sure as hell could do with being a little less effective.
3) Retaliation is pretty kittenpoor outside of highly penalized situations, this would allow Retaliation to be more relevant.
4) “Hi im a blobling and spreading out is unacceptably difficult for me. So i want a passive way to ignore aoe that takes as little skill as possible”

Allie Murdock.8152:

Hey all,

Just curious, with the recent change we made to Retaliation in WvW, could you guys hop into WvW and pay close attention to the numbers now? I’m wondering if the change is enough, or if it’s something we should balance further.

Thanks for the feedback!

Something else shouldve been done for a long time now.

This is not a good way to balance Retaliation. Its just being gutted for small-scale fights or 1-on-1’s because its utterly overpowered in blobs.

Sure its better then the numbers before this, but there is still a significant damage return thats entirely passive, from a boon that is stacked almost passively in a zerg due to how many combo-finishers pop and Guardians that litter the area with Light fields.

Giving it an internal cooldown will drastically bring the two extremes closer, on one hand fast-hitting/aoe on the other slow and hard. And blobbing wouldnt be a reason to kitten Retaliation in smaller scale fights.

Terrahero.9358:

Straegen.2938:

Dear ANet, I am an AoE spammer and I want you to remove the only abilities that moderate AoE use.

1) AoE is suppose to be effective against clumped up groups of enemies, but is in WvW being countered by clumped up groups of enemies.
2) Clumping up sure as hell could do with being a little less effective.
3) Retaliation is pretty kittenpoor outside of highly penalized situations, this would allow Retaliation to be more relevant.
4) “Hi im a blobling and spreading out is unacceptably difficult for me. So i want a passive way to ignore aoe that takes as little skill as possible”

If a group wants to spam AoE, they need to boon strip first. Personally I think AoE is over the top in GW2. Pretty much every zerg build is built around it now. The only thing that tempers it is Retal and even then just barely.

Necro’s can corrupt Retal sure but it will only give 1 stack of confusion which after the confusion nerf is almost laughable.

there is no real punishment for an enemy group to spam aoe retal

Like i said in another thread:
Retaliation could be nerfed along with the nerf of AoE damage and increase of maximum AoE targets. that would mean

• effectiveness of aoe against small groups reduced (due to not reaching maximum targets)
• less blobbing
• more incentive for small groups
• same retaliation damage from zergs

Retaliation should be increased. it is currently the best deterrent for AOE skills.

An alternative is to nerf AOE damage.

There needs to be a cooldown or some sort of exhaustion period after receiving the boon. I never really pay attention myself if I have it, but for arguments sake if your initial retaliation buff is 5 seconds, there should be a 10 second period following that where you cannot receive the buff.

What people fail to realize with this is that for most people it seems to kill them off completely to the point they can’t use it. It doesn’t bother me, but others it seems to.

Retaliation is the perfect counter to AoE because it stops people from using it. Now how would the pro-retaliation peeps feel if there was a re-retaliation buff instituted where all the damage your retal buff dealt, was reflected back. Not only are you receiving AoE damage, but your also receiving all the retaliation damage back as well. Essentially, your buff kills you instantly. You no longer can use the buff, do you think that’s fair?

The problem is not the amount of AoE skills.
Its blobbing and therefore the effectiveness of AoE skills.

retaliation is as dumb play as AoE is and even promotes blobbing. no solution at all.

Allie Murdock.8152:

Hey all,

Just curious, with the recent change we made to Retaliation in WvW, could you guys hop into WvW and pay close attention to the numbers now? I’m wondering if the change is enough, or if it’s something we should balance further.

Thanks for the feedback!

What is the change exactly? I’m looking through the linked post over and over and not seeing it.

Allie Murdock.8152:

Well, let’s try out the change in WvW for a little while instead of theory crafting. It shouldn’t be as bad now. We can revisit this after a few weeks of playing if it’s still an issue.

Thanks for the feedback all!

There wasn’t any change. The only thing in the patch notes relating to Retaliation is fixing the bug in Edge of the Mist where it was using the PvE damage formula instead of the PvP damage formula. It does not seem like anyone in this thread is talking about EotM though. That means peoples have already been playing with with this “issue” for months.

Allie Murdock.8152:

Well, let’s try out the change in WvW for a little while instead of theory crafting. It shouldn’t be as bad now. We can revisit this after a few weeks of playing if it’s still an issue.

Thanks for the feedback all!

Yes. Let’s not be too hasty in judging the effects before we’ve had more time to see it in action.

Straegen.2938:

Terrahero.9358:

Straegen.2938:

Dear ANet, I am an AoE spammer and I want you to remove the only abilities that moderate AoE use.

1) AoE is suppose to be effective against clumped up groups of enemies, but is in WvW being countered by clumped up groups of enemies.
2) Clumping up sure as hell could do with being a little less effective.
3) Retaliation is pretty kittenpoor outside of highly penalized situations, this would allow Retaliation to be more relevant.
4) “Hi im a blobling and spreading out is unacceptably difficult for me. So i want a passive way to ignore aoe that takes as little skill as possible”

If a group wants to spam AoE, they need to boon strip first. Personally I think AoE is over the top in GW2. Pretty much every zerg build is built around it now. The only thing that tempers it is Retal and even then just barely.

Boonstrip what and how?

Retaliation is a mindless boon in a zerg, Guardians litter light fields everywhere. It stacks so easily, without even intending for it to.
Boonstrip is also not nearly as common, or available to professions to just say “well, before we drop aoe we just go ahead and remove all the boons from an entire zerg”, only to see it pop up again a second later before the AoE even lands.

Thats another thing, Retaliation is often “protected” by other boons. Not even a guarentee you clear it. Or that your aoe hits those you did clear it from.

Retaliation should get an internal cooldown, if you dont want to eat AoE then move out of the AoE.

Allie Murdock.8152:

Well, let’s try out the change in WvW for a little while instead of theory crafting. It shouldn’t be as bad now. We can revisit this after a few weeks of playing if it’s still an issue.

Thanks for the feedback all!

We’re talking about something that has been a problem since forever. All Arenanet did was nerf Retalation for small-scale fights because of how absurd it was in zergs.

This has nothing to do with the EotM damage bug, but the general behavior of Retaliation. I think this thread even predates the addition of EotM, so thats not what this was about.

Hi Allie,

The patch did not change retaliation in WvW, it only fixed a bug in EotM. The -33% retaliation has been present in WvW for many months and I expect that nearly everyone in this thread is talking about retaliation in that context.

The main issue is that damage from retaliation is excessive for small/fast attacks which some classes are more susceptible to than others. For example, engineers with both flamethrower (4 attacks/second) and grenades (3 attacks/second). On most classes it’s mostly a few specific skills that are well balanced overall but problematic with retaliation (e.g. guardian whirling wrath).

There are many possible solutions:

1. Set an ICD, either:
   1. On the person with retaliation (e.g. will only do damage on 1 attacker every 0.5s).
   2. On the attacker (e.g. you don’t get retaliation damage again from anyone else for 0.5s)
   3. On the attacker+defender combo (e.g. 1 attacker can only get retal damage every 0.5s for every person he hits)
2. Set a damage cap:
   1. Percentage of Damage (e.g 20% of attack maximum so 500 attack would hit for 100 retal – stronger impact on glasscannons)
   2. Percentage of HP (e.g. 5% HP/s max – weaker impact on glasscannons)
   3. Fixed Maximum (e.g. 1K HP/s max – stronger impact on glasscannons)
3. Individually rebalance specific skills (e.g. flamethrower doing 4 attacks hitting 5 enemies instead of 10 attacks hitting 3 enemies).

My personal preference is for a 0.5s ICD on the person with retaliation. I believe this has the smallest impact in small-scale and the best possible impact in large-scale.

Uttar.2341:

Hi Allie,

The patch did not change retaliation in WvW, it only fixed a bug in EotM. The -33% retaliation has been present in WvW for many months and I expect that nearly everyone in this thread is talking about retaliation in that context.

The main issue is that damage from retaliation is excessive for small/fast attacks which some classes are more susceptible to than others. For example, engineers with both flamethrower (4 attacks/second) and grenades (3 attacks/second). On most classes it’s mostly a few specific skills that are well balanced overall but problematic with retaliation (e.g. guardian whirling wrath).

There are many possible solutions:

1. Set an ICD, either:
   1. On the person with retaliation (e.g. will only do damage on 1 attacker every 0.5s).
   2. On the attacker (e.g. you don’t get retaliation damage again from anyone else for 0.5s)
   3. On the attacker+defender combo (e.g. 1 attacker can only get retal damage every 0.5s for every person he hits)
2. Set a damage cap:
   1. Percentage of Damage (e.g 20% of attack maximum so 500 attack would hit for 100 retal – stronger impact on glasscannons)
   2. Percentage of HP (e.g. 5% HP/s max – weaker impact on glasscannons)
   3. Fixed Maximum (e.g. 1K HP/s max – stronger impact on glasscannons)
3. Individually rebalance specific skills (e.g. flamethrower doing 4 attacks hitting 5 enemies instead of 10 attacks hitting 3 enemies).

My personal preference is for a 0.5s ICD on the person with retaliation. I believe this has the smallest impact in small-scale and the best possible impact in large-scale.

This is a very accurate assessment, and I like the potential solutions listed by Uttar as well.

I think we’re all aware of the controversy regarding retaliation (especially in balled up groups or zergs). We need to be like Uttar here and come up with solutions to solve the problem.

What about making it scale with dmg you deal? Whole problem is about AoE’s that tick (so deal low dmg per tick per target…). Raw dmg nerf will hit retal too much when used against slow attackers.

Malchior.5042:

Uttar.2341:

snip

This is a very accurate assessment, and I like the potential solutions listed by Uttar as well.

I think we’re all aware of the controversy regarding retaliation (especially in balled up groups or zergs). We need to be like Uttar here and come up with solutions to solve the problem.

^so much this. Gotta love Uttar’s post. Also i completely agree with everything he said.

@terkov: i WISHED they would implement this, but it’s probably just not possible due to the way the engine works. i wish it wasn’t so limited.

Uttar.2341:

1. Individually rebalance specific skills (e.g. flamethrower doing 4 attacks hitting 5 enemies instead of 10 attacks hitting 3 enemies).

That would end up nerfing the skill for other purposes. Any on hit or on crit procs would have fewer chances.

Allie Murdock.8152:

Well, let’s try out the change in WvW for a little while instead of theory crafting. It shouldn’t be as bad now. We can revisit this after a few weeks of playing if it’s still an issue.

Thanks for the feedback all!

What change? Retal was nerfed months ago…there was a bug fix to EOTM but that’s not worth talking about from a balence perspective. I think we’ve had plenty of time playing with the retal change to “theorycraft”. Did you read the link you posted?

Uttar.2341’s 1.1 suggestion is good. It would have minimal effect on small scale and fix retaliation for large scale.

It is common to see organized guild groups having nearly 100% permanent retaliation uptime. There is not enough boon stripping to remove this, because retaliation can be so easily re-applied e.g. light field from the guardian hammer auto attack chain and then hammer #2 or any other blast finisher. Thus pretty much everybody in the zerg has retaliation. This makes fast-attacking skills, which can hit multiple targets extremely hazardous. Even with the current “spvp” amount retaliation , each attack can trigger around 300 damage. Engineer grenade barrage toolbelt skill can theoretically hit up to 7*5 = 35 targets , which is over 10000 just using one skill, which has long projectile travel time and cannot be canceled. In worst case the enemy group didn’t have retaliation on when the engineer threw the ‘nades, but when they actually lands it triggers massive damage on the poor engi. Staff elementalists (meteor shower. static field etc), longbow rangers (barrage), flamethrower engineer’s and greatsword guardians (whirling wrath) suffer from similar problem.

I don’t think altering the attacking skills is a good idea, because this would require so much balancing work.

Boon stripping is really weak and should be improved. Currently the counters are too few and underwhelming.

Stand The Wall.6987:

Boon stripping is really weak and should be improved. Currently the counters are too few and underwhelming.

There are two counters to Retal… boon strip (smaller fights) or out heal (larger fights). Most guardians don’t even notice Retal in a zerg on zerg fight because they are in the stack healing over the damage. IMO players who complain about Retal are usually brittle, outside the stack or hitting a much larger force without thought.

Nice to hear Allie. If/when that gets patched in, hopefully we’ll be able to see just how well this does. Though personally I’d prefer it so it’s on the attacker, but that’s due to the fact that it would give some counter to this sort of thing. I don’t see problems with 1-2 people having retaliation on them, I can outheal that well in 1v1…my problem is when I barrage or dagger storm and get a ton of retal damage in a matter of seconds from MULTIPLE sources.

Lert.6287:

For me, Retaliation is one of the best things in game and should stay as it is now.

Agreed, it’s the best way to punish extreme AoE spam.

Threads like this are proof that sometimes, someone shouldn’t be unloading all their DPS at all times on the nearest group of enemies. This is a good thing!

On a side note, it’s actually not all that easy to grant a zerg all that much retal; Guards’s most accessible source is Stand Your Ground, which is 5s/30scd (base numbers).

If you’re talking about blasting light fields…no group ever really does this intentionally, everybody demands fire/water blasts. I don’t know of any group that is clamoring for 3s of Retal on five dudes.

Tryble.6819:

Lert.6287:

For me, Retaliation is one of the best things in game and should stay as it is now.

Agreed, it’s the best way to punish extreme AoE spam.

Threads like this are proof that sometimes, someone shouldn’t be unloading all their DPS at all times on the nearest group of enemies. This is a good thing!

On a side note, it’s actually not all that easy to grant a zerg all that much retal; Guards’s most accessible source is Stand Your Ground, which is 5s/30scd (base numbers).

If you’re talking about blasting light fields…no group ever really does this intentionally, everybody demands fire/water blasts. I don’t know of any group that is clamoring for 3s of Retal on five dudes.

^^ This.

@Allie, the issue here is that a lot of people are making changes based on the fact that THEY are the ones casting the AOE. That is not the right way to look at this. The problem is that AOE in general is too strong in this game. It really need a big nerf.

In the meantime, retaliation is the best counterplay to aoe. It is the only thing now that makes aoe attackers think before using their skills.

In other words, we still need one of the following:
1. A nerf to AOE
2. An increase to retaliation damage

and to those who think somehow retaliation higher or lower would decrease zergs, you are wrong. You could have zero retaliation and people would still zerg. Why? Because it is the easiest way to get loot.

style.6173:

In the meantime, retaliation is the best counterplay to aoe. It is the only thing now that makes aoe attackers think before using their skills.

In other words, we still need one of the following:
1. A nerf to AOE
2. An increase to retaliation damage

So in other words you think it is fair that if an attacker gets potentially punished by up to 10k damage from retaliation using a single skill, while the skill inflicts only around <1k damage on the enemy? (example engi grenade barrage). Semi-passive defenses should never be this strong.

I think it is time to get rid of the incredibly brainless meta where the pro guilds stack with 20+ characters standing so close to each other that their character models are inside each other. Obviously if enemy would fire arrows there, cast a meteor shower or throw some grenades, the pro guild should be punished.

Utter’s suggestion would not hurt small scale play. Retaliation could still trigger twice per second and punish mindless spamming.

Straegen.2938:

Stand The Wall.6987:

Boon stripping is really weak and should be improved. Currently the counters are too few and underwhelming.

There are two counters to Retal… boon strip (smaller fights) or out heal (larger fights). Most guardians don’t even notice Retal in a zerg on zerg fight because they are in the stack healing over the damage. IMO players who complain about Retal are usually brittle, outside the stack or hitting a much larger force without thought.

I’m not talking about retal only, I’m talking about the perma boon balls of players that never have a counter. A well of corruption or null field will get 1 maybe 2 tics off of one player, only to have the boon replaced immediately. This is imo worse then the condi meta.

Stand The Wall.6987:

I’m not talking about retal only, I’m talking about the perma boon balls of players that never have a counter. A well of corruption or null field will get 1 maybe 2 tics off of one player, only to have the boon replaced immediately. This is imo worse then the condi meta.

If a player doesn’t spam AoE on an enemy stack without healing support, it is not an issue. There are a small handful of AoE attacks that may return a ton of Retal per use… don’t use those without support or consideration. Simply put not every attack, build, skill, ability is meant to be used in every situation.

Most AoE attacks hit at most 5 targets which puts the returned damage around 2k tops. There are some AoE attacks that hit multiple times that simply should not be used in this scenario. If a player cannot mitigate 2k or so worth of Retal in a large group fight, they shouldn’t chain those attacks.

just a quick add in here, but on top of the nerf to Retaliation Damage (33%) it was also nerfed in stacks and was only allowed to be stacked up to 5 times.

It’s very easily fixed, which is to give it an ICD, which is what we have all been saying for months.

The problem with retal in wvw is that it hits squishies hardest whilst the heavy zerg ball doesn’t even notice it, making playing other classes much less viable and hence restricting class choice.

Tryble.6819:

Lert.6287:

For me, Retaliation is one of the best things in game and should stay as it is now.

Agreed, it’s the best way to punish extreme AoE spam.

Threads like this are proof that sometimes, someone shouldn’t be unloading all their DPS at all times on the nearest group of enemies. This is a good thing!

On a side note, it’s actually not all that easy to grant a zerg all that much retal; Guards’s most accessible source is Stand Your Ground, which is 5s/30scd (base numbers).

If you’re talking about blasting light fields…no group ever really does this intentionally, everybody demands fire/water blasts. I don’t know of any group that is clamoring for 3s of Retal on five dudes.

Stacking Retaliation isnt a deliberate choice, but a mere side effect of all the Guardians pooping their light fields everywhere. And everyone comboing with it one way or another.

Also when you say punish extreme AoE, someone has some required reading to do. Go over to gw2skills.com, click Engineer and find me the weapon that can be effective and doesnt get shafted by Retaliation.

spoiler alert, there isnt one.

So to you, and anyone else who feels such mechanics are great to keep “AoE-spam” low, just keep in mind there are builds that rely on abilities that are counted as AoE. And there are whole professions, that rely on abilities that count as AoE.
Infact, there are more abilities in this game that hit a multitude of enemies then abilities that are strictly limited to a single-target.

If these proposed changes to give Retalation a ICD is a possible thought or change that could be made soon, you better buff up the scaling, and buff up the base to compensate. it’s already pretty weak outside of zerging, and nerfing it by giving it a ICD without compensation would make this boon pretty useless. Doing a % of damage dealt to you would be OP(This is better for a unique utility skill).

Retailation is only problem for unorganized zergs. If you roll with a real team your health bar never move