Guild Wars 2

who else thinks that retaliation in big zerg fights is overpowered? i press 2 buttons and die in 3 secconds without getting hit by anything but retaliation. i believe a damage cap per X time could be a good solution here. if your wondering, im running a PVT staff ele with about 18k hp. toughness wont help me against retaliation, so what else does? note that not hitting the zerg is not an option.

Die in 3 seconds? Really?

I drop meteor storms on zergs, and while they hurt, they probably do 10k damage to me max, which I can burst heal just by switching to water attunement. Most of that damage is nullified by being next to guardians when they’re dodge rolling. I’m also using zerker trinkets and have more health than you, so you’re probably not all geared up or using the right trait build for zerging (You NEED 30 in the water trait when zerging as an ele)

Retaliation is a great mechanic to fight against greater numbers. Don’t nerf it.

You could wait for their retal to wear off. You know, actively check what boons theyre running before you start throwing skills at them.

He’s talking about a zerg: that retaliation will never wear off.
Also, it isn’t like you can target all the players of a zerg before attacking them.
For being so spammable, it is too strong indeed. Especially when talking about skills dealing multiple hits (like flamethrower’s autoattack, who hurts the user more than the enemies).

Reverence.6915:

Die in 3 seconds? Really?

I drop meteor storms on zergs, and while they hurt, they probably do 10k damage to me max, which I can burst heal just by switching to water attunement. Most of that damage is nullified by being next to guardians when they’re dodge rolling. I’m also using zerker trinkets and have more health than you, so you’re probably not all geared up or using the right trait build for zerging (You NEED 30 in the water trait when zerging as an ele)

Retaliation is a great mechanic to fight against greater numbers. Don’t nerf it.

Retaliation is the exact opposite of an anti-zerg mechanic. A zerg going against a small group is not going to care that you have retaliation, you’re going to go splat on their windshield as they plow through. Retaliation on a zerg vs a small group makes the zergs job that much easier. You’re going to half kill yourself just trying to hurt them and then go splat. The only place that retaliation is balanced is currently in small fights 1v1 up to 5v5. They have several options really, 1. Add an internal cooldown so it can only tick 1 per second, 2. Make it only work against direct attacks and not AOE’s 3. Make the caster only take ticks from one source just to name a few.

The worst time I’ve had with retaliation was on my mesmer when I dropped chaos storm and feedback on a zerg. Apparently reflected projectiles count as my attacks and thus proc retaliation. 20k hp to downed in 2 attacks!

OP are you sure it was retaliation and not reflection ?

If you don’t want to die, maybe don’t attack at all. You’re more of a help alive than dead. Why even bother droping meteor fall if you know you will die – to whine on forum on how “overpowered” Retal is? Cmon…

For me, Retaliation is one of the best things in game and should stay as it is now.

I’m pretty certain those 10-20k damages come from you being blind. I’m playing 100b zerker warrior (right, noob according to most of you, don’t care, phat numbers) and I’m usually the first to get in a zerg and spam whirl/100b and bow F1/#3. Needless to say its more likely for me to die in 1on1 against tanky warrior than I am against a zerg with my server’s zerg

I have no issues with retaliation as a zele (and even less running a pvt staff support build), I run omnom compote and swap to sigil of restoration after I get my stacks. It certainly sucks as a grenade or flamethrower engineer though. Until the hammer meta wears off there will be little shortage of retal even in the most unorganized zergs.

Vitality should help against retaliation. And conditions too, which are probably the biggest concern for an ele presently.

Some kind of ICD on the damage would be nice. A hunter’s warhorn 4’s return on retail is pretty insane.

azizul.8469:

OP are you sure it was retaliation and not reflection ?

Yes, im sure.

Lert.6287:

If you don’t want to die, maybe don’t attack at all. You’re more of a help alive than dead. Why even bother droping meteor fall if you know you will die – to whine on forum on how “overpowered” Retal is? Cmon…

Dont attack at all? lol i might as well just not enter WvW.

Ravenmoon.5318:

I’m pretty certain those 10-20k damages come from you being blind. I’m playing 100b zerker warrior (right, noob according to most of you, don’t care, phat numbers) and I’m usually the first to get in a zerg and spam whirl/100b and bow F1/#3. Needless to say its more likely for me to die in 1on1 against tanky warrior than I am against a zerg with my server’s zerg

Your 100b doesnt even come close to the amount of targets i hit with meteor storm and ice bow. take icebow for example, its 24 individual iceblocks that each hit 5 targets. and no im not blind, there was no incomming damage except from retaliation.

Reverence.6915:

Die in 3 seconds? Really?

I drop meteor storms on zergs, and while they hurt, they probably do 10k damage to me max, which I can burst heal just by switching to water attunement. Most of that damage is nullified by being next to guardians when they’re dodge rolling. I’m also using zerker trinkets and have more health than you, so you’re probably not all geared up or using the right trait build for zerging (You NEED 30 in the water trait when zerging as an ele)

Retaliation is a great mechanic to fight against greater numbers. Don’t nerf it.

im running 0/10/0/30/30 old D/D bunker spec swapped a few traits around and its great for zergs. im full exotic with all ascended trinkets, some PVT trinkets and theres 2 that have healing power instead. the amount of retaliation comming in doesnt even allow me to burst heal because im dead before the healing skill is done casting (glyph).

Dishing out near 50k from a couple attacks shouldn’t have a counter? Retaliation works because it is a soft counter to AoE spam. This game is already way too AoE heavy so lets not remove/reduce the very few things that counter it.

Straegen.2938:

Dishing out near 50k from a couple attacks shouldn’t have a counter? Retaliation works because it is a soft counter to AoE spam. This game is already way too AoE heavy so lets not remove/reduce the very few things that counter it.

counter? sure. but than whats the reason of those skills if i just die by using them, im not going to use meteor storm in a 1v1. i’d say the 3 seccond cast time of MS is enough for you to counter it.

It’s a passive boon that’s harder to not get in a larger group than it is to get… it’s a bit strong of an effect considering that… and it doesn’t give much play/counter play. If there was more aoe boon stripping or an icd or a cap on the damage you could take like confusion it would be better.

Magische Boek.2530:

counter? sure. but than whats the reason of those skills if i just die by using them, im not going to use meteor storm in a 1v1. i’d say the 3 seccond cast time of MS is enough for you to counter it.

Skills are not meant to be used without consideration. Pressing 2-3-5-1 while in fire from a zerk build isn’t meant to be a play style especially one without counter. Toughen the build up, use skills with more awareness, try a different approach or roll something else.

When condi-bunkers hit the scene, lots of builds had to be adjusted to manage the incoming conditions. They still present a very power roaming/skirmish threat but players traded vitality for toughness, added more condition clearing, etc to manage it. I absolutely do not believe a staff ele cannot be built that cannot manage retal.

Except not any multi-hit skill is an heavy hitter. Especially when we have multi-hit autoattacks as well.
Again, why should the flamethrower autoattack hurt its user more than the enemies?
Or grenades too, to a certain extent.

I run full zerker ele, and I don’t die to retal from meteor shower.

Ice bow is your fault though. Hits way faster than meteor shower… So not surprising you die from it, even though your OP stated you die using meteor shower.

While running zerker, a good meteor shower will probably take a large chunk of my health, but I am also hitting like a truck… So I call that a tradeoff.

Manuhell.2759:

Except not any multi-hit skill is an heavy hitter. Especially when we have multi-hit autoattacks as well.
Again, why should the flamethrower autoattack hurt its user more than the enemies?
Or grenades too, to a certain extent.

Not every skill, weapon and build is meant to be used in every situation. This isn’t press 1-2-3-4-5 combat. Some weapon sets are almost worthless in large scale fighting while others need to be adapted. Just because meteor shower or the like is ready to go on a players bar does not mean they should fire it off without consideration.

The idea that any build with any weapon set using any skill should work in every situation is exactly counter to the original design of GW2. Removing/reducing these abilities moves GW2 from thoughtful combat to spam anything to win. GW2 is already deep into the spam to win territory.

Retaliation is designed as an offensive counter to the VERY high DPS of AoE. People gripe about D/D thieves dishing it out and probably never consider that an ele hitting 5 targets has about 3x that DPS and it is sustained not burst.

What is the current state of retaliation? Does it still reflect 33% damage that bypasses armour and protection? Or does it deal flat damage based on power? If it is the former, I’m not sure why it is bypassing armour and protection. If the latter then that really doesn’t work.

Manuhell.2759:

He’s talking about a zerg: that retaliation will never wear off.
Also, it isn’t like you can target all the players of a zerg before attacking them.
For being so spammable, it is too strong indeed. Especially when talking about skills dealing multiple hits (like flamethrower’s autoattack, who hurts the user more than the enemies).

If you see guardians spamming their hammer auto, dont use aoe.
If when you tab target (you could click too) and you see multiple enemies with retal up, or stability, dont use aoe or cc. Wow logic yay!
If you have well of corruption and null field, you can take that retal right off!
If you are just dieing to use your aoe, then dont use it on their train! Cuz when guardians spam hammer AA, they get retal!

^^ that is all nice and all, but how do you sugest some ranged used their skills to defend a tower. Less numbers, retal is up for large part of the attackers. And my engi hits multiple targets. The only thing I can do is stop attacking and tab trough enemies to see if I can attack one. Hoping i dont hit anyone else.

Straegen.2938:

Manuhell.2759:

Except not any multi-hit skill is an heavy hitter. Especially when we have multi-hit autoattacks as well.
Again, why should the flamethrower autoattack hurt its user more than the enemies?
Or grenades too, to a certain extent.

Not every skill, weapon and build is meant to be used in every situation. This isn’t press 1-2-3-4-5 combat. Some weapon sets are almost worthless in large scale fighting while others need to be adapted. Just because meteor shower or the like is ready to go on a players bar does not mean they should fire it off without consideration.

The idea that any build with any weapon set using any skill should work in every situation is exactly counter to the original design of GW2. Removing/reducing these abilities moves GW2 from thoughtful combat to spam anything to win. GW2 is already deep into the spam to win territory.

Retaliation is designed as an offensive counter to the VERY high DPS of AoE. People gripe about D/D thieves dishing it out and probably never consider that an ele hitting 5 targets has about 3x that DPS and it is sustained not burst.

That would be fine if there weren’t multi-hit autoattacks, that don’t have high dps by definition. Like the aforemented flamethrower’s autoattack, that does laughable damage versus single targets as it is supposed to be used versus multiple ones.

Stand The Wall.6987:

If you see guardians spamming their hammer auto, dont use aoe.
If when you tab target (you could click too) and you see multiple enemies with retal up, or stability, dont use aoe or cc. Wow logic yay!
If you have well of corruption and null field, you can take that retal right off!
If you are just dieing to use your aoe, then dont use it on their train! Cuz when guardians spam hammer AA, they get retal!

So i should avoid to use my only long range weapon – grenades – and my close range ones – flamethrower and bombs – because their autoattack can indirectly kill me. Wow logic yay, indeed.

Straegen.2938:

Dishing out near 50k from a couple attacks shouldn’t have a counter? Retaliation works because it is a soft counter to AoE spam. This game is already way too AoE heavy so lets not remove/reduce the very few things that counter it.

The counter to AoE is the fact I can only hit 5 people at a time and the big red circle on the ground. AoE skills are designed to break up huge blobs of people; Ret just makes it easier for the zerg to keep on zerging.

The only counter AoE really needs is for people to spread out, which would make the battles a lot more interesting.

This game favors huge zergballs in each and every aspect. Anet doesn’t care. Don’t expect to have a large impact on the outcome of a zerg vs zerg as an individual (unless you command). Retaliation is just one factor.

That’s why I do solo roaming 95% of the time in WvW.

The only way retaliation can kill you is if you are not paying attention.

You don’t even need to watch their boons closely, you just have to watch your own health bar. Is it going down? Then pop a heal (Ele has by far the best heal in the game). Heal on CD? Then swap water attunement. No heal and no water attunement, and your health is already so low that retal might down you? Then maybe you shouldn’t have dropped a massive AoE.

Retal can easily be managed as a full zerker Ele, let alone as a full soldiers/celestial Ele. The only way it can down you is if you don’t pay attention or make a seriously bad mistake.

Ragnar.4257:

The only way retaliation can kill you is if you are not paying attention.

You don’t even need to watch their boons closely, you just have to watch your own health bar. Is it going down? Then pop a heal (Ele has by far the best heal in the game). Heal on CD? Then swap water attunement. No heal and no water attunement, and your health is already so low that retal might down you? Then maybe you shouldn’t have dropped a massive AoE.

Retal can easily be managed as a full zerker Ele, let alone as a full soldiers/celestial Ele. The only way it can down you is if you don’t pay attention or make a seriously bad mistake.

Or if you’re an engineer that just tossed out a bunch of slow moving grenades. Unfortunately I have no way of stopping all the grenades that are still in the air after the first ones hit.

Even if I don’t die my only option at that point is to run away or stand there and die. Ret needs to be adjusted for WvW, it’s broken in its current state.

Ragnar.4257:

You don’t even need to watch their boons closely, you just have to watch your own health bar.

That might be true for ele skills but its false for certain engi skills (e.g. Flamethrower 1, Grenade Barrage).

Jim Hunter.6821:

The only counter AoE really needs is for people to spread out, which would make the battles a lot more interesting.

5 target limit is an engine limit and IMO a good limit to control AoE DPS. It is not nor should it be the only counter in large scale fights.

If memory servers meteor shower does not put down a red circle. I often cannot tell the difference between an enemy and friendly fire of that skill.

Manuhell.2759:

So i should avoid to use my only long range weapon – grenades – and my close range ones – flamethrower and bombs – because their autoattack can indirectly kill me. Wow logic yay, indeed.

When an entire group is running retaliation either toughen the build up, don’t spam AoE (one attack, even two isn’t going to kill even a zerk build), run with better group healing or redesign the build. I hate to sound like a broken record player, but I don’t think the message is going through. This is dynamic combat… adjust.

Straegen.2938:

When an entire group is running retaliation either toughen the build up, don’t spam AoE (one attack, even two isn’t going to kill even a zerk build), run with better group healing or redesign the build. I hate to sound like a broken record player, but I don’t think the message is going through. This is dynamic combat… adjust.

Any group runs retaliation, as it is extremely spammable. And engineers don’t have any alternative for long range. Or even strong single target attacks, in that regard – apart from the #3 skill, the tool kit doesn’t do much. The only way engineers have to adjust is going to the character select screen and get another class. All due to a spammable boon.

And people wonder why the engineer is the least used class…

Manuhell.2759:

Any group runs retaliation, as it is extremely spammable. And engineers don’t have any alternative for long range. Or even strong single target attacks, in that regard – apart from the #3 skill, the tool kit doesn’t do much. The only way engineers have to adjust is going to the character select screen and get another class. All due to a spammable boon.

And people wonder why the engineer is the least used class…

IMO the engi is the least used class because it is a difficult class to master and isn’t particularly easy in PvE. Retaliation has little to do with it.

Pretty much all medium armor classes come into zerg fights with one hand tied behind their back. Thieves don’t have useful stealth/steal in large scale fights. Rangers have pets which tend to die on zerg contact. Engis have to deal with retaliation which can wreck them if they spam AoEs. They are still playable in a zerg just not as useful but at least engis (well played ones) and thieves are very dominant in roaming. It is a tradeoff.

If Staff Eles can survive retaliation, engineers should have no problem adapting.

I had a little diddy written about how i was playing wvw ele/engi basically for the first time (r14 and r20 on those toons) and how even zeging h-core spamming large aoe’s, i only got into trouble being stupid, but meh.

SKILLS that proc huge amounts of retal like the ft1 skills and various whirl skills need to have their retal proc reworked, not the other way around, retal works pretty much fine except when you smash your face into something like a baddie

Ragion.2831:

What is the current state of retaliation? Does it still reflect 33% damage that bypasses armour and protection? Or does it deal flat damage based on power? If it is the former, I’m not sure why it is bypassing armour and protection. If the latter then that really doesn’t work.

Latter good sir, latter…which is why you see so many complaints about it.

It’s really very easy – roll a guardian or warrior and join the zerg train, then you will never notice the retal and will wonder why ranged classes and those that don’t auto regen over 400 hp a tick have problems with retal……

Sure was a fun day on wvw, every single guild group is running some form of perma retaliation and reduces my engineer to a coathanger inside keeps and towers.

Manuhell.2759:

So i should avoid to use my only long range weapon – grenades – and my close range ones – flamethrower and bombs – because their autoattack can indirectly kill me. Wow logic yay, indeed.

If you are dieing to retal, dont spam on the train. Instead, throw nades at their backline. Pin their squishies down with chill. Make sure your necros and mesmers know when and where to use boon strips.
Any form of aoe spam is naturally powerful in wvw and retal is the way to discourage abuse.

And you still miss the point – that aoe spam must be actually damaging to be powerful. Autoattacks aren’t powerful by definition, let alone multi-hit ones. And their attack is balanced taking in consideration you will hit multiple targets…and yet, doing so is exactly what retaliation makes counterproductive.
Again, getting more damage back than the one you dealt makes no sense at all.

Distaste.4801:

The worst time I’ve had with retaliation was on my mesmer when I dropped chaos storm and feedback on a zerg. Apparently reflected projectiles count as my attacks and thus proc retaliation. 20k hp to downed in 2 attacks!

Drop null field on the Zerg first.

I have used Feedback and Chaos Storm on gates while defending against mindless attackers and have been downed MANY times simply from the retal alone, would i stop doing it? No, coz the amount of people that have died from it have been enough to rally me anyway. It is always fun to see all the people panicking when they are dealing 2-3k+ damage to themselves especially when they use channel skills is great

Retaliation really only effects Glass cannon Elementalist… I melt myself with 1 Meteor shower / Lava Font.

I know that retal scaling with damage done would be ideal, but until anet does this (which isnt likely to happen) there are simple alternatives to avoid dieing to retal. Like common sense.
No one in my guild has trouble with retal. Our eles crit 5-10k meteor hits so the damage they receive from retal is worth it and deserved.

Stand The Wall.6987:

I know that retal scaling with damage done would be ideal, but until anet does this (which isnt likely to happen) there are simple alternatives to avoid dieing to retal. Like common sense.

Too bad that doesn’t help Rangers or Engineers. Most of our stuff IS fast hitting or hits multiple times/enemies. And once that AoE starts…we’re screwed. I’ve noticed I don’t really have a problem with retal most of the time because not many zergs actually use retal a lot in our tier, they just try to zerg everything down. But when you encounter those few zergs that do…UGH.

I’m a grenadier and I disapprove of retaliation.

Why complain about retal when there are very easy counters to it?

Boon strips and conversions. Retal = gone.

Instead of complaining – work with the ready available counters in the game. That’s what they’re there for.

if they remove retaliation and reflected skills then all will gone berseker builds and the game will destroyed .

the only class that zerker thieves fear now is guardians because they have by design access many retaliation skills…. if they remove it guardians will be piece of cake for them.

azizul.8469:

OP are you sure it was retaliation and not reflection ?

u cannot reflect meteorshower. the only things u can reflect is projectiles.

Ill just leave my video here again, i can add clips of meteor shower ect killing me in 1 shot also if u like. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PB6zdwc7iWY&list=UUM8NqxY8uiOsuc-JFj22SoA&feature=c4-overview

Phi Is Sly.1857:

Ill just leave my video here again, i can add clips of meteor shower ect killing me in 1 shot also if u like. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PB6zdwc7iWY&list=UUM8NqxY8uiOsuc-JFj22SoA&feature=c4-overview

yeah i get 1shot sometimes by usng feedback on a retal zerg with lots of projectiles….

in the past wall of reflection ( and all other reflected skills ) reflected the trebs shots back to its source /…

because anet listened to players removed this option . now my guardian can not guard my structures walls well and punish my enemies for their actions in the same time with his skills and i can only use my reflected skills to reflect and not absorb damage only on player skills and golems skills.

i hope now anet do not listen eles that want have the one kill shoot with meteor and as a guardian still have skills that i can use to reflect the extreme big damage damage back to its source . i am a guardian Mr glass canon and you must learn the proper way to deal with me if you want defeat me !!!

p.s. i also want my wall of reflection reflect back arrows from acs too ….. i can understand that trebs balls are too much heavy for reflection ,but the tiny arrows a real wall of reflection can have a chance send some of them back to its source

^ LOL No.