Guild Wars 2

RyuDragnier.9476:

So make it so a person in stealth is knocked out of it with reveal if their attack is evaded or blocked. There, we’ve fixed stealth, and the QQing can stop.

This would be an inefficient solution since there are many professions, who don’t have that good access to evade or block. E.g. elementalist has no evade and only one blocking skill (arcade shield). Necromancer has neither.

12 pages of comments, and no one can agree on anything…. the playerbase is too divided to come up with a viable solution. At this point, why even bother trying to fix what seems to be broken, if we can’t even agree on the best way to fix it?

Juxtapositronic.1405:

If thieves are a problem for you in wvw then you are doing one of three things: 1.) You are being afk. 2.) You have some terribad spec. 3.) Your gearing is wrong.

One might also put this other way round, if a thief is squishy, he must be doing it wrong:
1) wrong traits and 2) wrong gear

Many thief players tell that they are squishy, but that is because they didn’t invest much anything on defense, yet they use this same argument to tell you “thief is balanced, because it is so squishy”. Funnily these same guys will tell you that your gear is wrong and that you should have at least 25k health and 3k armor or you deserve to die to a thief… I can imagine how many of those thieves players are running that high armor and health: NONE!

Prime example of double morale.

Mepheles.2087:

12 pages of comments, and no one can agree on anything…. the playerbase is too divided to come up with a viable solution. At this point, why even bother trying to fix what seems to be broken, if we can’t even agree on the best way to fix it?

Not exactly. It is two things
1. non Thieves complaining about Thieves
2. Thieves supplying disinformation trying to muddy the waters to prevent the corrections that are coming. Common tactic of someone trying to keep the status quo.

Any class is better in WvW and yet Thieves need a nerf?

Forzani.2584:

Not exactly. It is two things
1. non Thieves complaining about Thieves
2. Thieves supplying disinformation trying to muddy the waters to prevent the corrections that are coming. Common tactic of someone trying to keep the status quo.

That’s what I don’t understand. Instead of being a hindrance to your class, be helpful, and work to come up with a solution that won’t totally compromise your class. Because all that spreading misinformation does is delay the inevitable, and leaves Anet with the only choice, which is taking things into their own hands with no proper suggestions or feedback and that could end up putting the thief into a worse position (not to say the Anet team is incompetent, but trying to fix something without information can end up making it much worse, or breaking something else.)

Thief is the worst class in PvE and WvW, it needs a big buff Anet.

There will be always 2 sides. Most of thieves (not all) will defend that broken mechanic because they take unfair advantage from that, it makes them feel like the best players in the whole world. Yishis (thief) says that npc camp/tower guards are better than many other pvp players, for example…
You won’t find any other character that can solo as many players as thief in short time (and this is huge difference).

They mostly even don’t know how to work in pvp any other class. They have learned few tricks which keep them alive with insane dmg.

The worst thing that ANet can do is to remain in silence.

Bottom line:

Not fun to play, not fun to play against…Worst class design in an MMO… ever.

Deniara Devious.3948:

RyuDragnier.9476:

So make it so a person in stealth is knocked out of it with reveal if their attack is evaded or blocked. There, we’ve fixed stealth, and the QQing can stop.

This would be an inefficient solution since there are many professions, who don’t have that good access to evade or block. E.g. elementalist has no evade and only one blocking skill (arcade shield). Necromancer has neither.

Dodge. Every class has it, learn to use it.

Sin.4130:

ANet confirmed that stealth is broken in WvW by putting there anti-stealth traps. If thief is so easy to kill without anything or by anyone why this traps appeared?

Of course you have to pay for that. You still can’t buy those traps for real money (gems) but who knows what future will bring. You waste sources for that anyway just to beat some lonley thief if he ever will appear…

And again you’re wrong (as always).

Read this. Those are tips from Robert Hrouda concerning thieves:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/ranger/Devs-mention-ranger-PvE-buffs/first#post1835635

‘Most thieves don’t make it out of the lower tiers because you can mitigate them very easily’.

So even Anet is telling you – in a roundabout way – to l2p.

Again you take your stuff from your little imagination land.

I’m not sure thief OP or not but I saw ~600 posts here and usually people don’t complaining for nothing. Maybe had something wrong with the thieves.

Stefan.9360:

I’m not sure thief OP or not but I saw ~600 posts here and usually people don’t complaining for nothing. Maybe had something wrong with the thieves.

You would be correct “if” all the posts were complain. It’s easier to say most are against a nerf then in favor. For the simple fact the thiefs are not OverPowered, it’s just too much UnderPowered players fighting them.

buttski.6135:

‘Most thieves don’t make it out of the lower tiers because you can mitigate them very easily’.

So even Anet is telling you – in a roundabout way – to l2p.

Again you take your stuff from your little imagination land.

lol, So why he doesn’t want to buff them. Tell me more fairy tales.

Sin.4130:

buttski.6135:

‘Most thieves don’t make it out of the lower tiers because you can mitigate them very easily’.

So even Anet is telling you – in a roundabout way – to l2p.

Again you take your stuff from your little imagination land.

lol, So why he doesn’t want to buff them. Tell me more fairy tales.

well, read the link

what did you provide? only some fantasies from your little wannabe imagination land

I puted videos, even in linked thread is a vid where thief kills on few shots, so tell that guy to stuck his bunker ranger you know where…

Forzani.2584:

Most people can handle losing. They know they will never be the best player but still have fun. Thieves suck the fun right out of WvW

Win or lose, for most people, it’s not fun fighting an enemy that can constantly go invisable.

/Thread.

This really hits the heart of the matter and the core of the problem.

Deniara Devious.3948:

And that is in EU tier #1, which probably has a bit higher level of play you have in NA. E.g. the thief in your screen shot is trying to run away along the road. Here they usually shadowstep away and stealth. One of our Desolation guilds, IRON, recently moved to Sanctum of Rally. Just one guild. Look how fast SoR is now rising up in your tier and might soon take the #1 spot, despite it was #3 a week ago just before IRON arrived there.

Iron is a zerg guild that fights outmanned teams on every BL when theyre on. That doesnt take much skill. Combine this with the fact that before they moved JQ lost lots of people, and only has enough to cover 2.5 zones during NA time (and half of one during EU), and you see SOR has a huge coverage lead during EU to take everything, then has full Q’s on every map during NA time to hold it all, and you see they tick at 350+ from EU to late at night NA, thats why SOR winning so much.

Now Im not saying Iron is bad or anything, but theyre just a zerg guild with high numbers who takes everything against very little opposition, of course they make a huge impact.

Ungood.3054:

Forzani.2584:

Most people can handle losing. They know they will never be the best player but still have fun. Thieves suck the fun right out of WvW

Win or lose, for most people, it’s not fun fighting an enemy that can constantly go invisable.

/Thread.

This really hits the heart of the matter and the core of the problem.

I love fighting thieves, cause they think invisible = invulnerable, but I know where theyre going 90% of the time, and make short work of them, since most thieves play exactly the same. Once in awhile youll find one who moves differently, but after you fight them once/for a bit, you can kill them with ease every other encounter.

Sin.4130:

@whis31.02

Put on some videos, that kind of screenshots can be made by everyone, especially in 2 vs 1 combat as your party mate is just behind you. Then you can spam L2P on forum without being ridiculous.

There are no allies around me, as can be seen in the SS’s minimap. Tell me a free program that can record video and not look like poop and I will record what I can.

RyuDragnier.9476:

All they need to do is adjust how stealth works, and the thief class will no longer be so OP. Make it so any attack the one in stealth throws out that is blocked or evaded immediately throws them out of stealth and gives them reveal. That’s pretty much all stealth needs to actually not be so OP. Because as of right now you can dodge an attack perfectly and all it does to the one in stealth is make him shrug and go for another attack while in stealth…which is what makes stealth OP. You make it so a failed attack gives reveal, and grats, you’ve nerfed stealth just the right amount and made all this QQing about thieves being OP most likely go away.

That one attack comes at the end of stealths duration/right after it wears off. Theres no need for this as it wouldnt change anything, L2P, and L2count to 3, then dodge if its d/d or s/d 2 if its d/p 4 if its p/d. Another good point is that dodging or blinding or aegis at 3 seconds after they reveal is how you win. Thief is all about how the player uses his timing to stealth and attack, it runs on 3 second intervals 99% of the time, and its easy to counter. L2P

Heibi.4251:

Also, if they happen to be in the way of direct fire weapon or attack, it SHOULD hit them. They aren’t vapor.

It does hit them, L2P.

Sunflowers.1729:

-Run away (contrary to popular Thief opinion, I don’t consider this ‘losing’. It’s a draw)

A thief running away is a victory for the opponents because its the thief admitting they cant win.

@butski, TheGreatA, Moon, I love you guys!

Ungood.3054:

Also, “Fight Club” means you know it’s it’s coming and what you are facing, In Real WvW you have no idea if, when, where, or by what, you are going to get hit. That is why a Thief being able to strike from invsi means you get zero warning of anything coming at all, and end up literally taking massive damage out of nowhere.

If a thieves initial attack against you is from stealth, theyre a bad player and you deserve to die if you do. Good thieves dont initiate fights from stealth, as that requires using one of their 2 utilities for stealth to do so, and removes them as escape options if bad things happen.

They also dont run up to you in stealth. Learn to look around and pay attention as you run. Honestly, most people dont ever look behind them as they run, and on thief and guardian I catch people all the time and start the fight before they know a fight is going to happen. I often find myself running behind them for long periods of time to catch them as well. The only thing you really have to watch for or be told about is hiding places. There are many, many places you can hide and do things you probably shouldnt be able to do, especially with a sword main handed. These are the main things that happens to people and why they think thieves sneak up on them in stealth.

Deniara Devious.3948:

Juxtapositronic.1405:

If thieves are a problem for you in wvw then you are doing one of three things: 1.) You are being afk. 2.) You have some terribad spec. 3.) Your gearing is wrong.

One might also put this other way round, if a thief is squishy, he must be doing it wrong:
1) wrong traits and 2) wrong gear

Many thief players tell that they are squishy, but that is because they didn’t invest much anything on defense, yet they use this same argument to tell you “thief is balanced, because it is so squishy”. Funnily these same guys will tell you that your gear is wrong and that you should have at least 25k health and 3k armor or you deserve to die to a thief… I can imagine how many of those thieves players are running that high armor and health: NONE!

Prime example of double morale.

Im going to reply to this specifically. You do not need 25k HP and 3k armor to fight a thief and win. what you need is sustain. You need ways to mitigate his attacks, to make him waste all his initiative and use all his cooldowns. It’s really not a hard thing to do, and I will explain exactly what you need.

First, you need enough armor and HP to survive an entire burst rotation from a GC thief who isnt specced entirely into wasting all his abilities then crushing you, because you cant do that, these magic numbers are about 15k HP and 2600 armor. I know this because thats what my thief has, and I live through that poop just fine.

The next thing you need to have is the ability to block or blind, and learn how to counter his abilities and make him use his initiative. You need to time your dodge rolls/blinds/blocks so they happen right before he would exit stealth if youre at low HP to avoid the incoming damage, or right when he would go into stealth, the second being the superior choice, as missing a cloak and dagger leaves the thief with half his initiative gone and out of stealth and basically forces him to burn his heal or shadow refuge.

wish.3102:

I love fighting thieves, cause they think invisible = invulnerable, but I know where theyre going 90% of the time, and make short work of them, since most thieves play exactly the same. Once in awhile youll find one who moves differently, but after you fight them once/for a bit, you can kill them with ease every other encounter.

I have heard this a dozen times and bet I will hear it a dozen times more, normally by the people who end up being bodies on the field shortly after bragging.

These “magic times” as I will call them occur at very specific intervals 99% of the time. To dodge stealth attacks you need to time it correctly and play smart. A d/d or s/d thief who went stealth will attack you in 3 seconds, from behind, if he stealths on you with cloak and dagger. To avoid this simply run whichever direction your facing when he used the ability for 3 seconds, then dodge roll. After this he will try to cloak and dagger you or waste a utility to restealth. Unless he’s a bad thief, if hes a bad thief he will backstab you as youre running after like a second, then spam heartseeker because he thinks you were running. At this point you hit your block if you have a long duration one or dodge again if you dont, then attack him, after 3 seconds from his blackstab hit do a block or blind or dodge roll and he will miss cloak and dagger and be out of initiative and easy to just lay into and kill. If he waited the full 3 seconds, he’s not horrible and youll need to play smarter, hit him til you see the CnD animation, then dodge. And if he ever runs straight at you, hes going to CnD, and you should dodge forward when he gets close. Forward being the correct way to go about it. Most people are bad, and cant camera turn fast and youll be able to get a few hits in while has no initiative and is confused by your actions.

D/P thief will attack you 2 seconds after the smoke field on the ground dissappears. When he drops the smoke field, run away, when it goes away, dodge roll after 2 seconds. I guarantee you 99% of the time, the thief will miss backstab and be out of stealth chasing you right after you dodge roll. And then it will drop another smoke field, at this point run into the smoke field. ya, seems stupid right? but after you do that, hit your blind/block, so he cant restealth and cant backstab you. This will cripple what he is trying to do, and 2 seconds later he will appear far away from you or be running away and close to you, be sure to attack to remove blind, and then CC him and burst him. Repeat these steps and you wont lose.

For D/P thief, if youre not using heavy conditions removal, a thief or a mesmer, youre basically screwed, just run away. But the trick to them is they do 2 things. Dodge rolls on top of you to cripple you, and every 3~ seconds shoot many times to apply lots of bleed from stealth, which you need to dodge roll and take 1 shot from, to reveal him and not take much damage. After that he will shoot 3 times, then try to CnD you, which you need to dodge away from to waste his initiative if you want to win the fight.

Another thing I will mention is if he has an offhand dagger, and isnt attacking you from stealth, hes removing the revealed penalty at the cost of his damage. This doesnt happen often, but a thief doing this is in real trouble. It depends on the situation, but if hes doing it, hes hurting. What you need to do here is realize that his stealths last for 3-4 seconds, and after that he will be trying to CnD you again after hes visible. If you can dodge 1 CnD at this point, he will either try and run away, at which point you should use any CC you have and do all your damage to him because he has nothing. or he will simply CnD some random mob around you, which gives you the chance to distance yourself from him. Because he cannot chase you at this point, simply run 5 seconds away from that mob and watch for him to appear close to you, at which point he overcommited and you can dodge his CnD you see coming then kill him easy, or he will have run away.

Always drop all AOEs you have and auto attack inside shadow refuge, if you have pulls/pushes use them inside of it too. Unless youre low and he was close to full and youre by yourself. At this point if a refuge goes down, run away, hes stuck inside of it til it dissappears, and this is your chance to escape, use everything you can to get away.

You need to always have a stun break move too. Always. If you get bask venomed, (turned grey and cant move) use it, otherwise, dont use it, no matter what else the thief does. Bask venom has a 40 ish second timer on it, remember that.

These tactics work against 99% of thieves you guys say you have problems with and make them die. And if they dont, the thief probably has a timed rotation he is using, once you learn it, you can avoid it. Simply rotate through the strategies and always do a blind/block/dodge roll at 3 seconds after revealed has happened to him, force him to stealth attack your face, and if he outplays you, dont feel bad, because he would of outplayed you on any class.

If youre a guardian or ele or some other boon using bunker class, and the thief has a sword, you cannot go toe to toe with him, even though hes not bothering to stealth against you. You need to be mobile and burn blinds and dodges and blocks when he spins around you, but not til the attack lands. The next attack is the one that steals your boons, and makes him able to laugh at you and melee you down even though youre super bunker and hes built as a complete glass cannon.

I put a lot of effort into these posts when I would normally be playing a video game for fun. You guys better appreciate it.

Ungood.3054:

wish.3102:

I love fighting thieves, cause they think invisible = invulnerable, but I know where theyre going 90% of the time, and make short work of them, since most thieves play exactly the same. Once in awhile youll find one who moves differently, but after you fight them once/for a bit, you can kill them with ease every other encounter.

I have heard this a dozen times and bet I will hear it a dozen times more, normally by the people who end up being bodies on the field shortly after bragging.

Come fight me then on your thief.

wish.3102:

Sunflowers.1729:

-Run away (contrary to popular Thief opinion, I don’t consider this ‘losing’. It’s a draw)

A thief running away is a victory for the opponents because its the thief admitting they cant win.

I can’t agree with this at all. Does the opponent get badges, WXP, or loot if the Thief ‘loses’? Does the Thief have to run all the way back from the waypoint? Every other class has to.

According to your argument, why not give everyone the ability to use Shadow Refuge (with certain caveats, to prevent abuse)? Then we can all roam with the same impunity as Thieves. It doesn’t make anyone better at anything except running away, and it doesn’t hurt Thieves either. All it does is let everyone avoid death when they lose. And before anyone says to make your character a Norn, give me a free race change and I will do just that.

I cannot agree with your mindset of “Thieves lose if they run away” at all. And even if you insist that it is ‘losing’, why is the penalty for losing so much less for Thieves (and to a lesser extent people who can run away really fast)?

Edit: And speaking from the viewpoint of my lv 80 D/P Thief, it is very hard to actually kill me. I do run into people who force me to back off, and that’s completely fine, except that they rarely get that stomp unless it’s a 1v3+ situation. So I can go hours without dying, when roaming in WvW.

wish.3102:

Ungood.3054:

wish.3102:

I love fighting thieves, cause they think invisible = invulnerable, but I know where theyre going 90% of the time, and make short work of them, since most thieves play exactly the same. Once in awhile youll find one who moves differently, but after you fight them once/for a bit, you can kill them with ease every other encounter.

I have heard this a dozen times and bet I will hear it a dozen times more, normally by the people who end up being bodies on the field shortly after bragging.

Come fight me then on your thief.

I don’t play munchkin classes, sorry, but flavor of the month is not my flavor at all. Why don’t you show us a vid you owning a thief instead, I’ll go get the popcorn ready.

Sunflowers.1729:

Edit: And speaking from the viewpoint of my lv 80 D/P Thief, it is very hard to actually kill me. I do run into people who force me to back off, and that’s completely fine, except that they rarely get that stomp unless it’s a 1v3+ situation. So I can go hours without dying, when roaming in WvW.

Most games when they put in stealth, they put in a counter, either skills like Spot, Items that allow you to see invsi, or abilities to counter the stealth ability in some way, like searching.

GW2 offers nothing.

Someone else suggested a few pages back of giving rangers pets that could see through stealth, which I think would be fitting, because iirc, ranger and thief are the only 2 medium armor classes in the game, and it seems fitting that a ranger above all other classes should be able to spot a thief.

Stealth Traps everyone can use them ! But thieves are OP if your not careful they can down you within 2 seconds, i was hit by one the other day within 2 – 3 seconds i got hit by 8k then a 5k then 3k, luckily i’m a Mesmer so i quickly hit my distortion and high tailed it out of there with 1k health remaining LOL Mass invis decoy FTW 2 can play the stealth game but unfortunately with the Mesmer we can hit like what thieves do anymore OP

Juxtapositronic.1405:

Thieves are perhaps the most hilariously underpowered class for WvW combat. All they are good for is scouting and yak-sniping.

BUFF thieves, do not nerf them again.

That is a laughable comment…

Thieves are in great shape. If you think they are underpowered you do not know how to play one. Simple.

Stealth is the real issue here. Maybe Anet should change some current abilities so that they can apply Reveal to stealthed targets. For example, Mesmer Chaos Storm could have a 1 in 5 chance of procing Reveal on a stealthed target and the Engineer Mines could also have a chance of applying Reveal.

Or instead, Anet could even make it so that Light field combos hit stealthed targets, applying Reveal and forcing them out of stealth.

Deniara Devious.3948:

Juxtapositronic.1405:

If thieves are a problem for you in wvw then you are doing one of three things: 1.) You are being afk. 2.) You have some terribad spec. 3.) Your gearing is wrong.

One might also put this other way round, if a thief is squishy, he must be doing it wrong:
1) wrong traits and 2) wrong gear

Many thief players tell that they are squishy, but that is because they didn’t invest much anything on defense, yet they use this same argument to tell you “thief is balanced, because it is so squishy”. Funnily these same guys will tell you that your gear is wrong and that you should have at least 25k health and 3k armor or you deserve to die to a thief… I can imagine how many of those thieves players are running that high armor and health: NONE!

Prime example of double morale.

pretty much this sums up all thiefs in forums

Simonoly.4352:

Stealth is the real issue here. Maybe Anet should change some current abilities so that they can apply Reveal to stealthed targets. For example, Mesmer Chaos Storm could have a 1 in 5 chance of procing Reveal on a stealthed target and the Engineer Mines could also have a chance of applying Reveal.

Or instead, Anet could even make it so that Light field combos hit stealthed targets, applying Reveal and forcing them out of stealth.

i’d say Initiative is the real problem thief has ridiculous direct damage the ability to keep inflicting it non stop without cooldowns alongside stealthing is what makes them a threat lets be honest you wouldnt care about thieves perma stealthing if they couldnt kill you in 2-3 hits .

look at pvp all you see is heartseek spamming noobs .

Sunflowers.1729:

According to your argument, why not give everyone the ability to use Shadow Refuge (with certain caveats, to prevent abuse)?

Snow leopard form is better than refuge, and open to all classes (just roll a norn). Did you miss my posts about it? Basically you roll a norn, set snowleopard, and now when you want to run away you simply pop it, hit 5, then hold down 4. In less than 3 seconds you are now far enough away to break combat and they have no idea where you went.

Ungood.3054:

wish.3102:

Ungood.3054:

wish.3102:

I love fighting thieves, cause they think invisible = invulnerable, but I know where theyre going 90% of the time, and make short work of them, since most thieves play exactly the same. Once in awhile youll find one who moves differently, but after you fight them once/for a bit, you can kill them with ease every other encounter.

I have heard this a dozen times and bet I will hear it a dozen times more, normally by the people who end up being bodies on the field shortly after bragging.

Come fight me then on your thief.

I don’t play munchkin classes, sorry, but flavor of the month is not my flavor at all. Why don’t you show us a vid you owning a thief instead, I’ll go get the popcorn ready.

As I said earlier, point me to free recording software that doesnt suck, and I will.

Rezzet.3614:

look at pvp all you see is heartseek spamming noobs .

Block/dodge rolls/etc, then the thief has nothing and is easy to kill.

wish.3102:

Sunflowers.1729:

According to your argument, why not give everyone the ability to use Shadow Refuge (with certain caveats, to prevent abuse)?

Snow leopard form is better than refuge, and open to all classes (just roll a norn). Did you miss my posts about it? Basically you roll a norn, set snowleopard, and now when you want to run away you simply pop it, hit 5, then hold down 4. In less than 3 seconds you are now far enough away to break combat and they have no idea where you went.

Ungood.3054:

wish.3102:

Ungood.3054:

wish.3102:

I love fighting thieves, cause they think invisible = invulnerable, but I know where theyre going 90% of the time, and make short work of them, since most thieves play exactly the same. Once in awhile youll find one who moves differently, but after you fight them once/for a bit, you can kill them with ease every other encounter.

I have heard this a dozen times and bet I will hear it a dozen times more, normally by the people who end up being bodies on the field shortly after bragging.

Come fight me then on your thief.

I don’t play munchkin classes, sorry, but flavor of the month is not my flavor at all. Why don’t you show us a vid you owning a thief instead, I’ll go get the popcorn ready.

As I said earlier, point me to free recording software that doesnt suck, and I will.

Rezzet.3614:

look at pvp all you see is heartseek spamming noobs .

Block/dodge rolls/etc, then the thief has nothing and is easy to kill.

yeah i forgot we have infinite dodge rolls

/sarcasm

TinkTinkPOOF.9201:

XII.9401:

TinkTinkPOOF.9201:

wish.3102:

DeWolfe.2174:

Every character I have is a Norn, you know how often I use transforms, almost never. To even suggest something that has a 4 minute cooldown is even in the realm of a thief is pure trolling.

So basically you are saying that thieves negate the usefulness of every other race in WvW but, Norn’s? And, that even as a Norn, we all have to give up our Elite’s because of thieves? I think you just proven that Thieves are OP.

The way people in this thread talk, youd think giving up your elite for a “get out of jail free” card is what they want so they can be on par with thieves. How often do you really even run away? Every 4 minutes isnt enough time for you? I barely even use my elite on guardian, switching it to this was just gaining an amazing escape ability that guardian severely lacked at the cost of nothing.

Also, thieves give up everything for their stealths, you cant lose 1 skill to match them? And at no point did I say anything about thieves negating other classes. There are things thieves are good at, and there are things other classes are good at. Have you ever taken a thief and charged an enemy zerg with your zerg? you die super fast. My guardian however can stand there in the middle of the enemy and laugh. My thief can gank dolyaks in the middle of 4 people, my guardian cant. My guardian can give 4 people next to me tons of regen, protection, stability, retaliation, burning on attack, aegis, I can convert tons of conditions on them to boons, remove all of their conditions, block all incoming projectile attacks, heal them, take ridiculous amounts of damage so they dont have to, etc, my thief cant even come close to being that useful in a group fight. Every class has things it can do, and cant do.

TLDR:You guys need to stop QQing about the class that can run away from you, and focus on doing the things your class does, or play something else that does the things you want.

A thief being able to run away no one cares about, not being seen for however long they want and being able to reset the fight anytime they start losing is the problem, as I said before, if thieves had to retreat like any other class that is fine, but fighting the same person who keeps on losing the fight 8+ times in a span of 5 mins is just stupid.

I don’t have a problem with their health, I didn’t have a problem with their dmg before any nerfs, and I don’t really have a problem with stealth, I have a problem with the reset of fights anytime they like, which just happens to be done through stealth in this case.

The solution is simple. The dominating classes : Mesmers,Guardiand and thieves have way too many get out of jail cards. Eles, too.

Limit those and you will balance things.

What are those get out of jail free cards that other classes have that can be spammed in such a way a thief does? Really most interested in the guard as I play one as a main. As for mesmers and ele’s, can be annoying sometimes, but don’t have anywhere near the resets thieves have, I find mesmers and ele’s to be pretty normal in combat.

Mesmers have a teleport on their staff, usually slot abilities to help them go invis, Moa form, Clones that take half the damage, 2sec invulnerability on a 10 sec cooldown on a WEAPON, Throwing down a wall that gives them speed, slows enemies and can be activated to pull someone into it thus pulling them away from the mesmer or interrupting their heal etc.

Guardians: A heal that heals them to full, almost, Retaliation up a lot of the time in certain builds, A heal that blocks..really? Area denial that interrupt blocking targets or can be used to trap a target while they run away and get their heal back on their regular weapons. Aegis that can be spammed 2-3 times in a row.

If you don’t think you haven’t run into OP trinity then you never ran into players who can utilize their broken mechanics to the fullest in high end tourneys or even WvW. Hot joins are useless for gauging what a class is capable of. Have you ever run into two guardians with the proper build/gear/rudimentary knowledge of how to utilize the class? Its not fun seeing 2 guardians spamming boons on each other take on 6 people and live.

Thieves have the best get out of jail cards. I don’t think any Dev in any previous game as introduced a teleport hack (shadowstep/shadowreturn) in a class before! These Devs got kitten enough to push ppl into other games!

The only people who think guardian/mesmer/thief are fine and not OP are the people who play them. They won’t be able to pay Anet enough when the rest of the player base leaves followed by the people who play OP classes.

It happened before in previous games and it will happen again.

Ungood.3054:

Most games when they put in stealth, they put in a counter, either skills like Spot, Items that allow you to see invsi, or abilities to counter the stealth ability in some way, like searching.

GW2 offers nothing.

Someone else suggested a few pages back of giving rangers pets that could see through stealth, which I think would be fitting, because iirc, ranger and thief are the only 2 medium armor classes in the game, and it seems fitting that a ranger above all other classes should be able to spot a thief.

stealth in other games works totally different. and there are more medium armor classes. maybe you should learn the basic game mechanics before you run to the forums and cry ‘op’.

Rezzet.3614:

wish.3102:

Sunflowers.1729:

According to your argument, why not give everyone the ability to use Shadow Refuge (with certain caveats, to prevent abuse)?

Snow leopard form is better than refuge, and open to all classes (just roll a norn). Did you miss my posts about it? Basically you roll a norn, set snowleopard, and now when you want to run away you simply pop it, hit 5, then hold down 4. In less than 3 seconds you are now far enough away to break combat and they have no idea where you went.

Ungood.3054:

wish.3102:

Ungood.3054:

wish.3102:

I love fighting thieves, cause they think invisible = invulnerable, but I know where theyre going 90% of the time, and make short work of them, since most thieves play exactly the same. Once in awhile youll find one who moves differently, but after you fight them once/for a bit, you can kill them with ease every other encounter.

I have heard this a dozen times and bet I will hear it a dozen times more, normally by the people who end up being bodies on the field shortly after bragging.

Come fight me then on your thief.

I don’t play munchkin classes, sorry, but flavor of the month is not my flavor at all. Why don’t you show us a vid you owning a thief instead, I’ll go get the popcorn ready.

As I said earlier, point me to free recording software that doesnt suck, and I will.

Rezzet.3614:

look at pvp all you see is heartseek spamming noobs .

Block/dodge rolls/etc, then the thief has nothing and is easy to kill.

yeah i forgot we have infinite dodge rolls

/sarcasm

Use them when you need them instead of spamming it for no reason if you cant always keep vigor up? Seems easy enough to me and I have no issues on my guardian.

Rezzet.3614:

look at pvp all you see is heartseek spamming noobs .

why are you whining then? who’s the worse noob? the guy spamming hss or the one getting killed by it?

Rezzet.3614:

yeah i forgot we have infinite dodge rolls

/sarcasm

learn to time dodges then. i know, running to the forums crying ‘op’ is easier.

Sin.4130:

I puted videos, even in linked thread is a vid where thief kills on few shots, so tell that guy to stuck his bunker ranger you know where…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFnbuHbc774

600 steps in this thread overall by 10 people. Spamming more thanks

Lokheit.7943 on a different forum posted this stuff::

“I was checking the Ranger forum to see if I could find more information in the upcoming Ranger buff mentioned on gw2guru interview, and I found this bit that is basically the same we’ve been telling all the time to Thief haters, only that this time comes from a dev (which gives him lots of credibility) and a dev that is usually found on Ranger forums (so not particularly a Thief lover or someone who doesn’t wants his profession to be nerfed).

Very wise words and as I said it’s basically the same we’ve been telling for ages to all those players screaming for Thief nerfs instead of trying to learn to counter one of the less versatile classes in the game and probably the most predictable of them all:

Robert Hrouda.1327:

VitalSuit.1980:

Thieves as well? I hope this is only for pve and not pvp because thieves are the last thing that needs a buff.

Most thieves don’t make it out of the lower tiers because you can mitigate them very easily. As a ranger I shut thieves down all the time who don’t use venoms, especially if you have something like healing spring and Lightning reflexes. One fixes stun, one fixes immob/cripple, and then it’s just dodge rolls at the right moment and CC to shut them down. Also bring wolf for f2 and stay nearby when thieves start doing their stealthy bit, and then be ready to watch them flee in terror.
That of course means their build options are highly limited, and when that happens people can hard counter you more easily.

The changes for rangers coming in this next patch are a step in the right direction for them. I am not part of that team so I won’t be announcing any of the changes unless told otherwise.

And he’s able to counter thieves with a Ranger, one of the professions in most need of a buff, so imagine how well one of the strong classes can counter a Thief when the player learns to predict them instead of calling for nerfs without even trying to guess an strategy to beat a super predictable Thief.

Thanks Robert Hrouda for this, we really needed this from someone whose opinion wouldn’t be dismissed as if he was trying to save his class from nerfing."

TLDR: An Anet DEV can kill thieves just fine on his poopy ranger, you guys need to L2P.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Thief-haters-take-this-wisdom-from-a-dev/first

wish.3102:

Snow leopard form is better than refuge, and open to all classes (just roll a norn). Did you miss my posts about it? Basically you roll a norn, set snowleopard, and now when you want to run away you simply pop it, hit 5, then hold down 4. In less than 3 seconds you are now far enough away to break combat and they have no idea where you went.

I saw your posts about it. It’s still a bad reason because
1) Not everyone wants to have a Norn character
2) Some people already have non-Norn characters and cannot change

And most importantly
3) This is like saying “roll a Thief to roam”, but you just replaced ‘Thief’ with ‘Norn’. It means only certain players, due to a choice made at the character creation screen, are allowed to roam with much less risk.

If we all had to play Norn characters to roam around in WvW, why not just go one step further and just tell everyone to play Thieves? Sure, you can argue that your character’s race has little effect on the play style, but it all boils down to the same thing:

Certain characters (Thieves, and Norn to a lesser extent) have a massive advantage in roaming not because they are more skilled, but because they have an ability to get out whenever they want. When (if ever) Anet releases free race changes then this is not as strong of an argument since everyone will be on an even footing, but your argument is just “If everyone can do X, then there is no need to balance it”.

-“If everyone can play a Norn, there is no need to balance escape abilities”

leads to

-“If everyone can play a Thief, there is no need to balance escape abilities”

From your reasoning there is no need for balance, in any game, anywhere. If we can all play Mesmers (and we can), then even if Mesmers can burst any other class from 100 to 0 by pressing 1 button, that is balanced. Obviously there is a problem here with your logic.

Besides, if we all do what you said and ‘play a Norn character’ is there any difference to just giving everyone Shadow Refuge?

None of your arguments make sense at all.

Oh well, I’ll just accept stealth then – thieves win. No reaction from Anet here and it looks like there are too many of us with L2 kitten ues. We just need more time to L2P because 9 months is too short to learn the ropes. So I would appreciate if thieves take it easy on us for another 9 months… perhaps that would help us overcome this terrible learning curve.

I’ve come to the conclusion that rendering could be a big setback and even though thieves might be “visible” for 3 seconds, I only really see them for 1 second. Perhaps many others have the same issue. TAB targeting is not an option to target the not-yet-rendered thief since we all know that TAB targeting cycles through all wildlife on map first, then walls, then gates, then wildlife on other maps, basically anything you can see or not see except the target you actually want to engage. Add some of the recent lag issues to the mix and you have yourself some of the worst conditions to fight against a thief.

Thieves win, Anet wins – I concede. There is nothing wrong with stealth, just leave it as is. In fact it’s wonderful, it shines with radiance. Anet should actually buff stealth: make thieves perma invisible and get it over with. Just one click for perma stealth so that thieves have more skill slots open in stead of using up slots to gain stealth. Then these poor squishy thieves that have no real function in WvW will perhaps be a more lucrative profession to play…
In fact I’m rolling one now in anticipation!!! Woohoo #2, #2, #2…

Xillllix.3485:

No comments. GW2 developers have to and deal with permanent invisibility and fix the nerf-broken elementist and engineer classes .

If you’re having problems with doing wvw as an ele you’re doing it wrong. I got online on 1st May, went to EB, throw a meteor storm on a random zerg trying to take our keep, 50 WvW kills monthly done. It’s like playing a walking treb.

Sin.4130:

Lets keep this thread alive like defending last tower in home border. Maybe many new ppl will roll to thief and ANet will have to put some action. This silence from them means a lot. But they probably don’t know what happened to eve online when they tried to fool all community.

No worries, I already rolled a norn thief. As did most of my guild. When we go roaming wvw night shift, we’ll roll all thief. :V

Stefan.9360:

I’m not sure thief OP or not but I saw ~600 posts here and usually people don’t complaining for nothing. Maybe had something wrong with the thieves.

Nothing wrong with thieves, everything wrong with people playing against them. Which is why I made one.

@ Evilek.5690

I dont get why you link a 100 nades Engi Vid, that build has been nerfed a long time ago.

"
HAiMaiNeIm

The build is simply gone, with the trait changed it no longer unleash a? double barrage which used to oneshot people, so without that ability it’s just an average power build.

Still the best dps option for pve thou.

It’s less than half (Dmg), it’s? a little more complicated mechanic, actually if you do it right now you probably bring the opponent to around 65-70 % hp, which is not nearly enough to justify the fragility of the build, you have almost no condition removal, low hp, 0 toughness and grenades which are very hard to nail since you’re very squishy.

The build relied on that combo to work, without it it’s a below average power build, very fragile, and not even the best bursting option

"

wish.3102:

Iron is a zerg guild that fights outmanned teams on every BL when theyre on. That doesnt take much skill. Combine this with the fact that before they moved JQ lost lots of people, and only has enough to cover 2.5 zones during NA time (and half of one during EU), and you see SOR has a huge coverage lead during EU to take everything, then has full Q’s on every map during NA time to hold it all, and you see they tick at 350+ from EU to late at night NA, thats why SOR winning so much.

Now Im not saying Iron is bad or anything, but theyre just a zerg guild with high numbers who takes everything against very little opposition, of course they make a huge impact.

I am sad to hear that you lost lots of people, but probably not as much as Desolation. We are outmanned even at prime time at our own borderlands. Here is quote from yesterday from our map chat from a fellow commander: “I am sick of 2 vs 20”.

I know that IRON is very good at blobbing. Despite they are a zerging guild, they actually have some amazing players who are also good in solo situations.

I actually sincerely hope that the the top 4 tiers of NA will become as imbalanced as EU tier #1 and tier #9 has been for months. I hope each and every tier in North America will have just one server completely face rolling the others. E.g. like in EU tier #1 when Visunah Square was controlling 95-100% of the map every single morning (recently Elona Reach, another strong stacked server entered t1, but did that help the outmanned side? nope). Upgraded keeps to tier 3 and equipped them with so much siege you couldn’t even count the numbers of Arrow Carts or Trebs. I hope that your every borderland gaming experience will turn into exactly same experience as Desolation has been experiencing on enemy borderlands. 2-10 guys on our side and 20-30 man enemy teams waiting just outside our gate. Better yet two such teams spawn camping the outmanned side. I hope every single outmanned North American player who walks out of his gate will be attacked by 2-3 man perma stealth thief teams just like our dear Visunah has been doing.

I feel that we need to have this kind of catastrophe until the developers finally start to listen to their player base.

For many months several top EU guilds, leaders and commanders had pledged for changes from Arenanet. Every single good suggestion has been met with utter silence. The message is very clear: Arenanet doesn’t care at all for the EU WvWvW player base.

Unfortunately Anet is still thinking for a better glicko system and every smart player knows this will be yet another failure. Smart servers will abuse the glicko not to rise up the ladder, because the current system is all about coverage. And in EU there are just few servers with any sort of coverage.

What we need:
1. Change of scoring system.
- scoring should be reversely proportional to the number of players e.g. if you are outnumbering enemy you get less points for each objective / holding the keeps, towers etc. Reward skill, not coverage or numbers.
2. Outmanned needs to give the outmanned side more survivability
- percentage increase to health and thougness for NPCs, structures and players
3. Winner goes up one tier and loser goes down one tier
- this would guarantee fresh match ups every week.
- change should be after reset every single day. The current 7 day reset is too long as in imbalanced scenarios the first two days already generate so big gap that there is no need to play the last 5 days as the winner and loser is already known.

And stealth also needs to be fixed. ;-)

Conclusions are simple. You will never be able to fight something that you can’t see.

Leave this perma stealth but reduce dmg to level of rest tank builds or just fix this stealth. I’m not educated game designer;) but it seems obviously to me.

So far.. lets see the sides:

The need to revise Thief: The mechanic of being able to do high DPS mixed with stealth, gives a class an unfair advantage in combat. Combine this with the class having the means to quickly engage and disengage from combat, make it a very unbalanced class to fight in WvW.

Thief Defense: L2P Noob.

Lovely discussion you have going on here.

buttski.6135:

Rezzet.3614:

look at pvp all you see is heartseek spamming noobs .

why are you whining then? who’s the worse noob? the guy spamming hss or the one getting killed by it?

Rezzet.3614:

yeah i forgot we have infinite dodge rolls

/sarcasm

learn to time dodges then. i know, running to the forums crying ‘op’ is easier.

my point is a traited thief wont lose all their initiative by spamming heartseeker

also it is just as ignorant to defend an op clas telling everyone else its their fault and to l2p

reminds me of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u55vHURPQSw

Deniara Devious.3948:

For many months several top EU guilds, leaders and commanders had pledged for changes from Arenanet. Every single good suggestion has been met with utter silence. The message is very clear: Arenanet doesn’t care at all for the EU WvWvW player base.

As a player from ET, a T8 NA server, I will say, that the developers don’t seem to care much about WvW or the people who play it general. ET and FC started dozens of threads asking for a fix to the Glicko system, and 13 weeks we got nothing. Zip. Nada. Just continual face roll by SF.

They talked about revising the glicko system but said “Oh it works fine”, but it wasn’t and ins’t.

They were going to do a reset to set things right again, but at the last moment they bailed out and left things as messed up as always.

The new guy, Devon Carver gave T8 a Numbers boost when he started, and that changed our entire game for us.

So, really, maybe with Devon at the wheel, a lot of the mess we have in WvW will get fixed. We can hope.

But as far thieves go.

We can:

Just deal with things as they are and keep playing as we play.

Roll a thief and hope the spike in that class gives it a warning sign, if not, at least we might get to gank and faceroll all the people who love to fight thieves. IE: if we are ALL thieves then we remove the balance issue.

Take a Break: Let the munchkins and the people who love to fight them play. maybe a sharp decline in WvW participation will send a message that something is very wrong here.

But as long as we do nothing, Anet has no motive to change what is.

Rezzet.3614:

buttski.6135:

Rezzet.3614:

look at pvp all you see is heartseek spamming noobs .

why are you whining then? who’s the worse noob? the guy spamming hss or the one getting killed by it?

Rezzet.3614:

yeah i forgot we have infinite dodge rolls

/sarcasm

learn to time dodges then. i know, running to the forums crying ‘op’ is easier.

my point is a traited thief wont lose all their initiative by spamming heartseeker

also it is just as ignorant to defend an op clas telling everyone else its their fault and to l2p

OP class

OP=underpowered or what ?

Thief:

Weakest healing in the game
Least health pool
Medium armor
Zero boons abilities
Zero invulnerable abilities
Middle mobility
Middle DPS
1-3 support abilities (two make only stealth,one block projectile)
OP F1 abilities /sarcasm
OP Utility slot skills /sarcasm

3x stealth abilities-1x weapon slot skill 2x utilities slot.

Yeah Thiefs Are OP !!!!