Guild Wars 2

what pvprs want is a wargaming mode – that is not pve – that is pvp in an rpg setting.
this is why all these other esport games are big, they are following wargaming rules… and it’s why most mmos are not good for esports – because they follow pve rules, not wargame rules. it’s also why games like Sid Meier’s Civilization V is a top 10 game on steam, because even vs computer, it follows war game rules in solo ( but it’s also multi player ) – great game actually!!

from wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wargaming

A wargame (also war game) is a strategy game that deals with military operations of various types, real or fictional. Wargaming is the hobby dedicated to the play of such games, which can also be called conflict simulations, or consims for short. When used professionally by the military to study warfare, “war game” may refer to a simple theoretical study or a full-scale military exercise. Hobby wargamers have traditionally used “wargame”, while the military has generally used “war game”; this is not a hard and fast rule. Although there may be disagreements as to whether a particular game qualifies as a wargame or not, a general consensus exists that all such games must explore and represent some feature or aspect of human behaviour directly bearing on the conduct of war, even if the game subject itself does not concern organized violent conflict or warfare.¹ The business wargames exists too, but in general they are only role playing games based on market situations.

……
meet pvp’s ancestors …
……

The modern wargaming hobby has its origins at the beginning of the 19th century, with von Reiswitz’s Kriegsspiel rules. Later, H.G. Wells’ book Little Wars ushered in the age of miniatures games in which two or more players simulated a battle as a pastime. During the 1950s the first large-scale, mass-produced board games depicting military conflicts were published. These games were at the height of their popularity during the 1970s, and became quite complex and technical in that time.

but pvprs duel on EB just like Achilles did on the movie Troy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sq-uMIZGETs

then when the Blob train rekts them on their show they get mad bro…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlitGhpoKDA

but that’s because everything is currently based on pve rules.

grind for gear, build a zerker, join the biggest server, roll with the zerg kill everything and hit the doors…you win -shiny box- for you, now pull my finger for next weeks match!

No, just no!! lol

thats like playing chess, and your opponent is chucking the pieces at you with dodgeball rules he hits you in the eye, and screams “I WIN!!!! LOOOOOSER”
seriously!! NO!!

that would actually make a hilarious video of what i feel wvw is like in it’s current state! heh!

Joining the big one is part of the war game. dozens of players looking for a big blob shelter and nice loot without doing any effort or risking their lives.

So in other words: what game should we all migrate to?

There will never be any knockout mechanics, critical blows, or actions that resonate any importance past the process of holding all of ebg for a few hours. It can be done in a way that keeps the servers all open for the entire week no problem. But there won’t be any drive to do so, they want to keep it as casual and open as possible. In other words all mechanics will always be kept as simplistic or nonexistent as possible. The mode will always be viewed as a pass-time to spend some time on while you farm the pve zones daily and wait for the next pve content to come out.

SO which game should we migrate to? is civ 5 good? played civ4 back in the day and was even debating reinstalling it…remembered that it is pretty old and rough looking graphically tho.

Ricky.4706:

but that’s because everything is currently based on pve rules.

grind for gear, build a zerker, join the biggest server, roll with the zerg kill everything and hit the doors…you win -shiny box- for you, now pull my finger for next weeks match!

No, just no!! lol

thats like playing chess, and your opponent is chucking the pieces at you with dodgeball rules he hits you in the eye, and screams “I WIN!!!! LOOOOOSER”
seriously!! NO!!

that would actually make a hilarious video of what i feel wvw is like in it’s current state! heh!

I didn’t gind for my gear. I definitely don’t run zerker. If my group runs with the zerg it is parallel to it not with it. I do love killin but hate the doors. Please don’t assume that all players are the 1111311 zerglings.

Chess is a two player game with strict rules as to what can be done. WvW is a herd of cats. The closest thing you could come to would be a map commander. The map commander sits in the keep watching the map and coordinating. They know who the commanders are, what towers are sieged and what the scouts are doing. I know we tried this on my server a couple times and it helped a little but takes a large effort by the community.

I still war game regularly and it does make you look at WvW differently. I still don’t understand why people still Omni-blob when breaking up your zerg into smaller pieces works better in blob vs blob fights.

yeah , Civ V – is pretty awesome, i’m afraid to play it actually….once you start a game, it’s so addicting and a match can easily go 24 hours – it’s hard to leave when you are left with “What happens next?!” lol – and the nuke graphics…..u have to see the nukes after they are launched! – and there are several ways to win, not just conquer.

and on wvw – the problem is there aren’t enough rules of engagement ….

Example – sending your whole military to one area – aka blob – should have it’s military based consequences ……..even further, running a large military should be expensive – but finance has no governance in the game …..not that it should be a money sink…..but say for example ….instead of just wvw ….it’s a “Million dollar war”

each server starts the game with a million gold, each player that enters the map costs some of this gold ( gold players don’t put up, it’s just an amount given to each team at the start of every match. random number for example…) – from that the server has to sustain the army – ie – repairs cost gold…..siege costs gold …… capping requires a budget …..forcing each team to adjust their strategies – suddenly a blob attack isn’t as wise and profitable as a 5 man team attack if you wish to last the week. If you run out of money, then you can’t score. The larger the opponent server, the more economic strain they have …and they may be blobs ….but they don’t have the economy to upgrade their towers. They would need their blobs to defend their property from smaller servers that can afford siege. It would definitely change the dynamics of engagement.

not saying this particular example is the answer, just giving example of how rules can change the game where population size plays differently into the outcome of war.
great…you have a large server, but now you can’t afford to arm everyone, or launch an attack because lack of funding. That’s a real war scenario.

ie – north korea would be a major threat if they could afford to fight for more than 3 days, but their economy would limit them to 3 days of war, before running out of fuel and ammo, and they technically have a “blob” military. 1 advanced US fighter jet can take out their entire air force because it’s outdated.

like adapting some concepts from civ v for wvw -

what if there were more than one way to win wvw ?

what if defense scored just as much, or more than capping, then suddenly those guerilla attacks that were fended off count for something …….suddenly fending off a 200 man blob with superior guild siege just got you half way to a win. Being a blob should have it’s cons.

and the smaller server can win first for reaching it’s “defense goal points” before the larger server achieved “Capping points”

so many ways to address this through rules, it doesn’t have to be a year long feat of technology to balance the fight …

Fight smarter, not harder!!

What are you talking bout war tends to be more about the environment your fighting in more then any thing else.

yes, but it’s not player vs environment, as now the population becomes ‘an environment’’ so now it’s player IN an environment. The environment becomes the rules, not the opponent.

pve – is like solitaire, you are playing against a computer that is predictable, the beauty of pvp is unpredictability and strategy vs human nature. A larger server fighting a smaller server for points is a predictable outcome. PVP is like poker, call my bluff…that’s human nature. a person with the winning hand, could lose to a well played bluff.

t1 fighting a t3 – is a comedy, not a drama keeping you on the edge of your seat. PVP should keep you on edge

Ricky.4706:

yes, but it’s not player vs environment, as now the population becomes ‘an environment’’ so now it’s player IN an environment. The environment becomes the rules, not the opponent.

pve – is like solitaire, you are playing against a computer that is predictable, the beauty of pvp is unpredictability and strategy vs human nature. A larger server fighting a smaller server for points is a predictable outcome. PVP is like poker, call my bluff…that’s human nature. a person with the winning hand, could lose to a well played bluff.

t1 fighting a t3 – is a comedy, not a drama keeping you on the edge of your seat. PVP should keep you on edge

What do you mean you have ppl changes the environment just to make it harder for the other ppl to fight you. That War 101 let alone using other environment pressers to “fight” a war by making it harder for ppl to buy and sell goods and moving these goods. War is more about environment then the ppl your fighting.

What you want is just to call every thing you hate pve with out realy understanding what pve is and what pvp is and worst yet not understanding how real life war works at all.

war is about how the environment effects the people you are fighting, and strategically using it to your advantage.

let’s not get personal about what i love and hate, – i’ve been a gamer for a long time and understand the different styles of gaming rather well. wvw is currently a mix of chess and dodgeball. not working. but i do like chess and i do like dodgeball, just not at the same time.

farming cabbage in wvw has no effect on our score.

ps – i love pve too, i wouldn’t want pvp rules in my pve either – i’m a very hardcore casual. I use to be big into competition, now i just love randomly playing hard in any mode really. specifically killing stuff, that necro reaper you see fighting 30 chak at the same time and wiping them out ….that’s me. i’m not much for puzzly things… – wvw is a gray area of modes, it’s not innovative, its messy.

If you ignore PvE in wargames you end up invading Russia in the winter. No matter who your opponent is, there will always be environmental obstacles.

That said, you may be able to make a case for removing certain PvE elements if you mention them specifically. You’ll have to remember that this is not a scheduled activity where everyone shows up at once with a clear objective in mind, though—Anet can’t expect players to man everything around the clock with consistent numbers on all sides. Additionally, there is amount of immersion going on that plays into the (mostly aesthetic) design. Thus, while your comparison is interesting, it is not 1:1.

So…could you perhaps be more specific about what you’re saying?

If you ignore PvE in wargames you end up invading Russia in the winter. No matter who your opponent is, there will always be environmental obstacles.

That said, you may be able to make a case for removing certain PvE elements if you mention them specifically. You’ll have to remember that this is not a scheduled activity where everyone shows up at once with a clear objective in mind, though—Anet can’t expect players to man everything around the clock with consistent numbers on all sides. Additionally, there is amount of immersion going on that plays into the (mostly aesthetic) design. Thus, while your comparison is interesting, it is not 1:1.

So…could you perhaps be more specific about what you’re saying?

i agree, the rules would definitely have to be tailored to fit a real time gaming environment.

But the only rule can’t be join the biggest server, be a zerker and win……

something else that i mentioned to consider, different goals for a win, something that considers the small server, mid server and large server

not a one size fits all score. ie – if a small server fends off enough major attacks from a larger server ……they win – so each server has an obtainable objective fit for their size – and then it’s a race for the win …… ie a larger server would go for most caps……but a smaller server can aim for a defensive win. Lets say 5 objectives for a win, the first server to achieve any one of those objective wins.

and about week long games ……the scoring ends, but people can continue to pvp …just no scoring. so the war could end tuesday and declare a winner ….the rest of the week is just mud slinging.

so for example – a t1 server is fighting a t3 server – if t1 fails 5 caps – because of their size they give big defensive points to the t3 defenders – the t1 loses to the smaller server because they failed an offensive and gave big defensive points – on the same hand, for the kitten win by old rules, they would have to kill 5k players for their win, which isn’t as easy to do vs a small population server – so they’d probably have to go for another goal to get the win.

the rules for a guerilla win – say 5,000 kills
the rules for a defensive win – say defend vs 5,000 players

again, i’m not saying my rules are the solution, Just showing another way that any rule other than joining the most popular server can change the dynamics without having to shift around the population. ( which doesn’t want to be shifted around anyways )

Sviel.7493:

If you ignore PvE in wargames you end up invading Russia in the winter. No matter who your opponent is, there will always be environmental obstacles.

That said, you may be able to make a case for removing certain PvE elements if you mention them specifically. You’ll have to remember that this is not a scheduled activity where everyone shows up at once with a clear objective in mind, though—Anet can’t expect players to man everything around the clock with consistent numbers on all sides. Additionally, there is amount of immersion going on that plays into the (mostly aesthetic) design. Thus, while your comparison is interesting, it is not 1:1.

So…could you perhaps be more specific about what you’re saying?

That is the best example how ppl forgetting about pve that i seen.

Any way i think its very telling that ppl are moving to bdo yet its a very high pve type of game with the hope of pvp yet ppl are not realy pvping they are just grinding. You have ppl who are mostly pvp players who are out right grinding pve to a high level. I think most ppl like to say they hate pve becuse it sounds like a nice thing to say yet ppl use pve to gain an advantages over others becuse that IS how humans thing and act if a person saying other wise they are lying to you.

as primarily someone who is more into pvp – the first thing i do in any rpg is make a magic find pve character and grind as hard as i can for the best gear as fast as I can. I’ll even binge play a leveling session to get it done fast. It may look like i love pve because i get stuff fast, but that’s really because I want to hurry up and get this phase of training your character over with. the current gw style is forcing me to relive it and stay stuck in it. “Oh wow, you got that fast, well here’s a better item for pvp, lets see if you can do THAT?” over and over and over…..like that person that says “hi” on the street and tries to turn it into a 5 hour conversation when you are on your way to an important event. -.-

Once I have all the stuff i need for pvp, i’m 80-90% pvp – after that pve is more of a place to go hang out with friends you made in pvp in a different area / mode – a walk in a park for laughs, not exactly a game mode as much as a change of pace from the usual trash talk matches.

PVPrs do play pve hard , but to get what we need to pvp – we get bored quick of pve because once we figure out the routine, it’s not a new adventure anymore. So grinding pve for us, is not fun because after we get our stuff, we been there and done that and want something new – we get something new every time with pvp matches because everyone has their own tricks up their sleeves. Unlike tequatl, who is a 1 trick pony. – you will see me at tequatl often because i need more ascended weapons for my other characters, tequatl is fun team play ..and makes it easier on the grind, but i’m there for pvp items.

so to say we are pvers isn’t completely true, we are in fact very adept at pve – but thats only because we want the things we need for pvp, we love and live for pvp, not pve.

now the difference to us re: pve vs pvp – is that pve is pretty much predictable, and pvp is just full of surprises and jokes…..the trash talk is actually part of the fun – we don’t mean it, just like the world wrestling federation doesn’t mean all the pre-fight trash talk they do, it’s just a show of feathers before the match.

now for arguments sake – let’s distinguish pve – such as environment, weather, obstacles ….from artificial intelligence ….artificial intelligence is not a person, and can be relatively predictable. If you tell an ai to pull your finger, chances are each match they will pull your finger and bam, you win. It doesn’t work like that in a lively pvp match ….and there’s that moment of a 1nce in a lifetime move. Tequatl doesn’t do 1nce in a lifetime moves, nothing in pve is alive and unpredictable. That’s a next level of challenge pvprs look for in a game. – this doesn’t mean that ‘environment’ wont be a factor. But i’m not out to farm potatoes when im in a pvp battle either. so keep any environmental variables relevant to my aim to conquer my enemy.

-

a good example that use to be a big thing for me of pve usage in pvp -

my tower is surrounded by wildlife , i study the local tiger ai behavior, an enemy comes to attack me, I lure the enemy near the tigers, knowing that if I get my opponent to x spot ….those tigers will attack him, and I will be the least of his worries. In some games, that environment manipulation ability is a stat and style of pvp all it’s own. A druid should be a master of that by influencing the local wildlife to attack your opponents. – ie – the higher his influence, the less the animals randomly attack him, so if he is getting attacked 3 to 1 in the woods, he can run into a pack of wild animals as defense.

This is now a pve element i can use in my fight, – it’s not chopping a tree that does absolutely nothing for my score.

pvers like collecting stuff and building up their characters in a unique way…

pvprs love new challenges and unpredictable adventures – like if you find an opponent who is very predictable in pvp – he gets boring too and you look for new talent to fight. just like handball, after a while you need to go to a new court because your old stomping grounds are full of scrubs you already beat 1,000 times. saaaaame thing, different medium.

hows this, handball is pvp – the wall is pve – if you hit the ball against the wall alone for practice, this is pve ……if you play vs someone else, the wall is part of a pvp environment – they can use the wall against you, as much as you can use the wall against them.

You don’t stop a competition and force both guys to hit the ball against the wall alone, as part of the match. that’s what the pve in wvw is doing. even worse, its making one person play against 4 people and scoring it!! it was funny when it was first done, but it’s not funny anymore and now we can’t hold a real competition because of it.

and no the solution is not handing out free water, or building an amusement park on the handball court.

if you want to try something innovative in wvw that pvprs would enjoy, try something like making a new property that has to be fought 1 v 1 for it. 1 player enters the ring to claim the area, another player from another server fights him for it. Not all the properties, just 1 – this will be an answer to the random duels you see in wvw – and make a bigger statement about which server has the best pvprs than a server vs server score.

you can even make another property like the old gvg maps or even the old hero’s ascension maps, where this property is full when 5 – 10 people join per side to fight for rights to that property. – this also would render population size moot because only 10 people per server can fight at a time – but for just that property. – those property claims now become matches that are better fit to create a server score worth respecting. You can have as big a server as you want, but only 10v10v10 or 5v5v5, or 1v1 people at a time can fight a match to claim the assigned property. the regular wvw can remain the same because it’s just good old fashioned mud slinging – it’s more for laughs now though – which is a good thing in pvp – everyone loves a good bar fight!

another property fight can mimick the fort aspenwood fights – those were a hoot, a simple fight that starts when the que is full. suddenly a small server might be fort aspenwood specialists – and what use to be a tier 1 population server can lose because none of the other fights they are good at are active….no property claim!

tbh, this is what i originally expected when we jumped from gw1 to gw2 wayyyy before hot.

……..
you are thinking too much

or everyone is thinking too little, because wvw is still in bad shape 4 years after release :p

you are indeed thinking too much

gw2 has been trying to defy some of the traditional approach to mmorpg
this include removal of pvp from open-world, wvw is gw2’s answer to that, you can check one of their old interviews about wvw concept. so, as a matter of fact, when people are complaining about mobs in wvw, they simple do not understand that wvw is the result of gw2 separating pvp from open-world while mixing in castle siege concept into it

wargaming is never ancestor to open world pvp, it is the other way round. if you look at humanity history, open world pvp already exist in ancient era where human can be doing fist fight in the wild. wargaming is simply a war game to simulate the evolved stage of human conflict where strategy comes into play.

also removing pve rules from pvp rules is like saying in reality, you expect fire not to produce heat.

do u wanna know why so many ppl went over to pvp mmorpg and didnt stay there for long? because they r not as pvp as they think they are.

lastly, to say that esport r successful because of wargame is too far fetch. they are only successful because of their focused gameplay, they only do one thing and it did it good which appeal to the majority. furthermore, those games do not require long hours of play unlike mmorpg.

SkyShroud.2865:

you are indeed thinking too much

gw2 has been trying to defy some of the traditional approach to mmorpg
this include removal of pvp from open-world, wvw is gw2’s answer to that, you can check one of their old interviews about wvw concept. so, as a matter of fact, when people are complaining about mobs in wvw, they simple do not understand that wvw is the result of gw2 separating pvp from open-world while mixing in castle siege concept into it

wargaming is never ancestor to open world pvp, it is the other way round. if you look at humanity history, open world pvp already exist in ancient era where human can be doing fist fight in the wild. wargaming is simply a war game to simulate the evolved stage of human conflict where strategy comes into play.

also removing pve rules from pvp rules is like saying in reality, you expect fire not to produce heat.

do u wanna know why so many ppl went over to pvp mmorpg and didnt stay there for long? because they r not as pvp as they think they are.

lastly, to say that esport r successful because of wargame is too far fetch. they are only successful because of their focused gameplay, they only do one thing and it did it good which appeal to the majority. furthermore, those games do not require long hours of play unlike mmorpg.

There is a difference between and area that has Open World PvP, like WvW does, and doing PvE and PvP at the same time. I have played games like that and they are full of griefers and PK’ers., the regular players leave once they have had enough of it.

WvW is designed for groups on down, but in a coordinated way. Open World PvP does not have that as every player is for themselves.

ouch, so many incorrect perceptions to your post…@skyshroud

it’s one thing to defy traditional design, it’s quite another trying to make a square wheel.

open world pvp – is simply an open world where people can fight each other. That does not make a game competitive, structure does.

when people complain about mobs, is because there is no systematic way for a smaller server to counter them. There are no rules to balancing the fight, such as a homefield advantage. Bragging rights would be using those rules to have a smaller server conquer a bigger one. But there is no brain over brawn strategy to win wvw.

and if pve fire creates a scoring imbalance on the field, it will just be a visual prop to fulfill the rpg aspect of digital gaming. So that comment is incorrect. it’s known in wargaming that some things have to be fictitiously adapted – because it’s still a game. That’s why we don’t drown in GW after spending hours underwater without an air tank. In real life, People don’t shoot lazers out of greatswords like a mesmer, you won’t get cut and in need of stitches if you run into a tree – so things will get adapted, and your character doesn’t risk being fried by a torch hanging on the wall in a tower.

Wargaming, is exactly that ….making a game out of war. Nothing more, nothing less.

the problem is open world pvp without rules is the equivalent of a riot, and I don’t mean an lol riot, I mean senseless fighting, anything goes, and you don’t score it. Nothing intelligent about destroying everything in your path.

to say wargaming has no part of esports is to wonder why I’m even debating ? lol

I’ve not only lived this and watched it evolve first hand, I’ve played in some of the first player organized online tournaments…those tournies would have never happened without rules, because the game didn’t have any structured rules…it was pure open world pvp. but there are game design articles on the topic that specifically discuss this as well. It’s not a new concept.

it’s the design specifically for strategic game play. intelligent pvp, not just whack a mole.

Ricky.4706:

ouch, so many incorrect perceptions to your post…

it’s one thing to defy traditional design, it’s quite another trying to make a square wheel.

open world pvp – is simply an open world where people can fight each other. That does not make a game competitive, structure does.

when people complain about mobs, is because there is no systematic way for a smaller server to counter them. There are no rules to balancing the fight, such as a homefield advantage. Bragging rights would be using those rules to have a smaller server conquer a bigger one. But there is no brain over brawn strategy to win wvw.

and if pve fire creates an scoring imbalance on the field, it will just be a visual prop. So that comment is incorrect. it’s known in wargaming that some things have to be fictitiously adapted – because it’s still a game. That’s why we don’t drown in GW after spending hours underwater without an air tank. In real life, People don’t shoot lazers out of greatswords like a mesmer, you won’t get cut and in need of stitches if you run into a tree – so things will get adapted, and your character doesn’t risk being fried by a torch hanging on the wall in a tower.

Wargaming, is exactly that ….making a game out of war. Nothing more, nothing less.

the problem is open world pvp without rules is the equivalent of a riot, and I don’t lol riot, I mean senseless fighting, anything goes, and you don’t score it.

to say wargaming has no part of esports is to wonder why I’m even debating ? lol

I’ve not only lived this and watched it evolve first hand, I’ve played in some of the first player organized online tournaments… but there are game design articles on the topic that specifically discuss this as well. It’s not a new concept.

it’s the design specifically for strategic game play. intelligent pvp, not just whack a mole.

Most open world PvP have no rules and hence always end that way they do. I can name ones that are like that, if needed but the post will be erased by A.Net.

yes, agreed, i know many of them, but this is also why most mmorpgs are not esport worthy, it’s not because they can’t , but they arent applying the correct rules for strategic war gaming.

Dota and lol are following strategic rules. Random is how you use the share of assets given you for that game, thus the need for balancing, so each team can have unique assets that amount to the same damage capacity aloted per team.

honestly, i don’t think anet would delete an intelligent argument, there’s a difference between discussing a topic intelligently and passionately….and just being loud. – same difference as strategic wargaming vs whack a mole – whack a mole posts get deleted lol

Look pvp is any thing that a human has control over at some point and was aimed at the “fight” at hand. So even things like walls and door in wvw are a type of pvp as long as the other players are using them.

Dusty Moon.4382:

SkyShroud.2865:

you are indeed thinking too much

gw2 has been trying to defy some of the traditional approach to mmorpg
this include removal of pvp from open-world, wvw is gw2’s answer to that, you can check one of their old interviews about wvw concept. so, as a matter of fact, when people are complaining about mobs in wvw, they simple do not understand that wvw is the result of gw2 separating pvp from open-world while mixing in castle siege concept into it

wargaming is never ancestor to open world pvp, it is the other way round. if you look at humanity history, open world pvp already exist in ancient era where human can be doing fist fight in the wild. wargaming is simply a war game to simulate the evolved stage of human conflict where strategy comes into play.

also removing pve rules from pvp rules is like saying in reality, you expect fire not to produce heat.

do u wanna know why so many ppl went over to pvp mmorpg and didnt stay there for long? because they r not as pvp as they think they are.

lastly, to say that esport r successful because of wargame is too far fetch. they are only successful because of their focused gameplay, they only do one thing and it did it good which appeal to the majority. furthermore, those games do not require long hours of play unlike mmorpg.

There is a difference between and area that has Open World PvP, like WvW does, and doing PvE and PvP at the same time. I have played games like that and they are full of griefers and PK’ers., the regular players leave once they have had enough of it.

WvW is designed for groups on down, but in a coordinated way. Open World PvP does not have that as every player is for themselves.

“they r not as pvp as they think they are”

as for wvw is “designed” for that or this, here, i made an effort to search for that interview. i have to highlight a point, “many of the elements”, which means things like constant threat from your surrounding is obviously greatly reduced in gw2.

“The overall design for Guild Wars 2 does not support fully open world PvP and it would take a prohibitive amount of work to even make it possible. World versus world is our version of open world PvP, and while it isn’t ‘true’ open world PvP for more PvP purists, it does contain many of the elements that make world PvP so exciting. Hopefully it will mostly satisfy people that want open world PvP”

also, in pvp mmorpg, one must be in good guilds, good guilds with members that understand their duties as a member of the guild and guilds that understand their responsibilities as a guild. otherwise, you can get slaughtered and no1 will help you.

yes, i can’t argue with that.

But then if we sat down at a table with a deck of cards, and I gave 15 people a random set of cards and told them , do whatever you want, that would not be poker. It could be classified as playing cards though.

the idea of this thread – is to discuss the esports factor of pvp – not just open world pvp – the hardcore players left because they want esports structure , and anet wants esports.

to harp on ‘breaking away from traditional design’ is not addressing this point.
Rules are rules. you want competition, you need competitive rules. Pve is not competitive rules. If anything pve rules are designed to keep things fun. Fun is not necessarily competitive. Pillow fights are fun, not putting rocks in the pillow case is a rule designed to keep pillow fighting fun, pillow fighting is not a competitive sport. now if you allowed each person to put exactly 5lbs of rocks in their pillow cases, it will become competitive and last man standing wins.

Ricky.4706:

ouch, so many incorrect perceptions to your post…@skyshroud

it’s one thing to defy traditional design, it’s quite another trying to make a square wheel.

open world pvp – is simply an open world where people can fight each other. That does not make a game competitive, structure does.

when people complain about mobs, is because there is no systematic way for a smaller server to counter them. There are no rules to balancing the fight, such as a homefield advantage. Bragging rights would be using those rules to have a smaller server conquer a bigger one. But there is no brain over brawn strategy to win wvw.

and if pve fire creates a scoring imbalance on the field, it will just be a visual prop to fulfill the rpg aspect of digital gaming. So that comment is incorrect. it’s known in wargaming that some things have to be fictitiously adapted – because it’s still a game. That’s why we don’t drown in GW after spending hours underwater without an air tank. In real life, People don’t shoot lazers out of greatswords like a mesmer, you won’t get cut and in need of stitches if you run into a tree – so things will get adapted, and your character doesn’t risk being fried by a torch hanging on the wall in a tower.

Wargaming, is exactly that ….making a game out of war. Nothing more, nothing less.

the problem is open world pvp without rules is the equivalent of a riot, and I don’t mean an lol riot, I mean senseless fighting, anything goes, and you don’t score it. Nothing intelligent about destroying everything in your path.

to say wargaming has no part of esports is to wonder why I’m even debating ? lol

I’ve not only lived this and watched it evolve first hand, I’ve played in some of the first player organized online tournaments…those tournies would have never happened without rules, because the game didn’t have any structured rules…it was pure open world pvp. but there are game design articles on the topic that specifically discuss this as well. It’s not a new concept.

it’s the design specifically for strategic game play. intelligent pvp, not just whack a mole.

the interview has never state they want wvw to be competitive but as a alternative for open-world pvp. im not even talking about wvw competitiveness yet.

also, you started the esport topic though i had no idea what you trying to relate esport to. tournament is tournament because it has rules but what are you trying to say here? are you trying to say that pve balancing should not affect wvw? is that what you have been saying? if that is so, i have already mentioned open-world pvp and with that interview, it is already clear that wvw is alternative to open-world pvp and thus it follows the pve rules. also, wvw is not a esport and anet is not trying to make it a esport. the only thing that anet is trying to do for esport is spvp so you should be directing your complains about balancing changes to spvp.

lastly, yes, u have played some online tournament, good for you. i have actually entered live tournaments. that still doesn’t mean anything or make it sound any more convincing. you said there are articles, can you provide the source of these articles?

War gaming simply doesn’t translate to WvW for one reason. Before your game starts you and your opponent are given an equal pool of points. Depending on the structure of the scenario you or your opponent may get a small bonus to how many points you have. Then you both get to build your army with your pool of points and it’s almost always a equal fight statistically. Sure I can bring some op units/relics/whatever but I pay for them and my opponent can use the PvE (terrain/area effects) to outplay my op units. In a battle the scope of WvW with all of the variables I don’t see this happening.

here’s another example i just came up with -

how do you make tequatl competitive – rules

you take 2 maps, tell them that anyone who dies, stays dead. at the end of the match you agree to count how many stayed alive vs tequatl and the damage he took, then compare, the team with the least deaths and most damage wins.

how do you make tequatl pve – rules

when you die, just res and come back. we arent keeping score, we just want to kill tequatl and get the loot.

on the wargaming, it’s all about the rules – we don’t have to follow rules from the civil war, just rules that establish ‘fair’ competition.

The rule of joining the most popular server is not fair competition. This rule was discovered by the players because it was not governed by gw2.

" nobody told me I couldn’t bring a few extra aces from another deck of cards to a poker competition, so it’s fair, Sever Pride!!!! " – no..just no.

ok, so we all agree that i’m thinking alot about this, and i’m posting excessively because gw2 is important to me, i don’t watch nor like television and faux news, i’d rather talk about mr drumpf and how it relates to tequatl’s walls with gamers

SO….

I’m thinking of wvw now as a pvp sandbox for this next post / blog/ rant

since players can’t agree on end game, naturally they go by pve rules and pick the safest plan for a win. this seems natural since most mmorpgs broke away from traditional mmorpg 1st generation and capitalized on the ‘loot’ factor and marketplace. in 1st generation mmorpg there were maybe 100 items you can find, maybe 3 were held by staff for competition wins – but loot wasn’t a focus. Having an adventure using different combinations of loot was. the birth of pve vs pvp builds and midget fights.

the next logical path is for anet to set up some examples of different ways to compete, so people can come up with better ways of making wvw interesting and competitive. So far some people love to pvdoor – but there isn’t a way of measuring which server can score higher at fighting doors… so this is disrespected by people who think they are the best solo roamers who know deep in their hearts they could just go kill anyone trying to pvd at will…so he’s the best in his preferred game mode, but that wouldn’t work against a 5 man team that isn’t bothering with him, because they are going to the other side of the map where no one is protecting to claim another property, and that wouldn’t work against a team that can blob the map at will.. and so on and so on, this wvw pvp sandbox is filled with so many ideas of what fun competitive pvp is …that it’s chaos. it’s everyone playing by their own rules and being proud their server did it.

anet needs to teach us a few ways to use it competitively and show a few examples of competitive rules. We need them to be teachers, and not just give us a deck of cards and say play…have fun, have a potato!!

School them anet, you were doing so great with gvg, hero’s ascent, fort aspenwood and pvp in gw1, we loved those rules!!……then you gave us a pvp / wvw sandbox in gw2 and we forgot the rules!

There can be only 1!

end game.