Guild Wars 2

ok, since all practical ways of balancing a match by moving bodies around or mega-server are generally disliked as a solution.

Let’s talk about how your efforts, your guild efforts, your team work gets recognized in wvw.

How about instead of a server vs server score, we rank players, guilds, Tag leaders, based on achievements per match. Take the focus off of the score of population, and place it on contribution.

is there any way that the scoring can be addressed where server population becomes irrelevant ?

One idea that I saw mentioned in the old CDI thread about it, was to have scoring based on Point Per Capture (PPC) and Point Per Defense (PPD), and remove the Tick (PPT). And a bunch of variants of such (more points for upgrading it, more for capturing upgraded, add PPK/PPS, decay timers etc).

It wouldn’t necessarily fix the points for fighting etc, but depending on the variants, it would remove most of the population advantage for points. Once everything is taken, you can’t really runaway with the score.

One of the most important things, is that we need to get points for engaging enemies, for example if we didn’t get any points for a capture/defense unless we’re actually fighting enemy players. So PvDing empty maps doesn’t actually give anything, you want to FIND those enemy players and KILL them.

No more Evade Wars 2 :p

but how does that scale to server size, I mentioned in another thread that my server is tier 3 – but we fight so hard we always end up with t2 opponents, how does that scoring reflect how hard we fought when the enemy obviously had greater numbers to churn out a bigger sum total.

I think it has to be broken down to guilds and players – where there is some ladder that shows which guilds generated the most relevant stats. This will at least allow servers to compete amongst themselves for capping and give other guilds an incentive to make great pvp / wvw guilds. – it’s easier to match a guild size than a server size.
Make a ladder of who had the most kills for the week, or which GM-Tag capped the most towers so non guilded pugs have a chance for glory too. Or even which solo / roamer capped the most camps / killed the most dolyaks or took out the most players.

Just something that means something to the individual or smaller groups that aren’t in high population servers.

I mean, keep the server score because some people want to believe it means something, but make a new ladder that shines on the most active wvw players and guilds. at least you can be recognized for all the impossible wars you faced in outnumbered matches.

those ladders from wvw are the ones that will generate the esport PVP fights HBO is made of! otherwise, where’s the hype ? who’s joe whats his face fighting for $200 ? -yawn- I’d rather hear about a guy who had 100k kills in wvw and 4k castle caps fight another pvpr that has an undefeated 50-0 record in spvp. – that would mean something to me. I’d bet on the spvp guy btw in this scenario lol :p

edit – that would be 1v1 …now team wvw vs team spvp might be a different scenario.
a well trained / practiced 5 man wvw team is a force to be reckoned with. spvp is more twitch gaming than planned strategy. you only find those teams in lower tier servers, where having a zerg on demand is not an option.

That runs into some interesting issues and opportunities. A guild leaderboard showing the most kills (or points based on points per kill) would be awesome. Just add up the total kills by guild based on what guild someone is repping at the time they get the kill. I know many guilds that would fight over those bragging rights. However, different tiers (and even servers) have different styles and this would create an imbalance favoring some servers over others. The same issue happens for personal leaderboards since in players in lower tier servers could complete the same tasks way easier.

I think what you are getting at is that there is nothing to work towards in WvW overall. Glicko scoring has trapped many servers in terrible matchups, especially when major population shifts happen, and many people are tired of the same matchups day after day. WvW players have to spend time farming other game modes to get gear, food, etc that they need for WvW. The only reward for currency earned in WvW (like the proofs of heroics) is siege which is mostly placed by commanders. Guilds spend large amounts of gold scribing tactivators but do not receive any reward in return. The only way to make WvW even approach profitable is to karma train similar to EoTM, which is exactly the opposite of what most veteran WvW players want.

I think this means that there need to be different rewards that servers, guilds, and individuals can earn through playing WvW. Some of the ideas from the old WvW tournaments were good since they gave servers a reason to fight for first place in their matchup, which in turn motivated guilds and players. However, the matchup Glicko system would need to be changed to ensure that servers would not get trapped in unwinnable permanent matchups and never receive rewards. And that doesn’t even get into the population imbalance issues.

The more I think about it, server based rewards seem impossible to balance. Guild and/or personal rewards seem like the best way to incentivize WvW play. For players, it could be kills, captures, etc similar to the achievements we had in the original WvW tournaments. For Guilds, let’s say that you get bonus favor or resonance (my guild always has to choose between scribing decorations or tactivators) for every x amount of time that you hold a claimed tower or keep. That gives something beneficial, but not overpowered, to guilds which spend the time and gold to hold an objective.

but rewards aren’t as gratifying to a pvpr as much as bragging rights.

The reward is being recognized for your work on a ladder, then competing vs the number 1 guy for his spot.

The server score doesn’t reflect what the great pvprs have done to make wvw fun at all. No matter what tier. I’ve met some incredible strategists on my server that will never be recognized for their great work in our matchup score, because we are always fighting impossible odds. which is a fun thing for a pvpr looking for more challenge than glory. those exist too!!

in the beginning of pvp, players use to keep their own ladders, there would be like a list of 100 players – each one was allowed to challenge someone i believe 5 levels above them to climb that ladder. That’s roots pvp!! a server score is so far off that concept it isn’t even funny and pve rewards won’t heal that wound!

I think something they could do that would be fun is make a most wanted list for each server based on k/d for the week in wvw…if in top 10 when in bl you have a number above your head….those peope provide 20 points instead of the 1 this would give a top fighting guild a chance to bring lots of fights to them(if more then one of them is in this group) and would allow them to score more points for their server. I think it would be a fun thing to add…would also have to have a minimum number of kills and deaths for it not to be abused.

PPC breaks down very quickly in practice. Say one server caps everything, then no points can be gained until they lose something. They aren’t rewarded for defending since if something flips, they simply flip it back and get even on points with whoever took it while pulling ahead of the third server. If one server defends all but one objective while the others repeatedly flip that one objective, the defending server gains no points while the opponents gain plenty.

In short, PPC means the best route is to avoid enemy players and cap things once they leave. That is, karma-training.

PPD runs into different problems, though they are no less fatal. Basically, it is impossible to gain points unless someone attacks. Worse, if they contest an objective without launching a serious attack, then they just gave free points away to the enemy. Since defense events run multiple times during a manned siege, the ideal case is to take undefended objectives and avoid engaging enemies at all costs. Once again…karma-training.

PPT works because you don’t have to launch a blazing offensive to get score. You just have to lose structures slower than you take them—meaning that defending and upgrading are directly beneficial. However, it also has problems—it is difficult for a small group to have much impact.

Thus, PPY (points per yak) were added with HoT. There are now more potential PPY than PPT and PPK combined. Thus, large groups and small groups can have impact, just in different ways.

That said, making points more visible would be excellent. Allowing players to see the points accumulated over their playtime would go a long way in helping them form good habits. For example, if they flip a camp, give them 5 personal PPT and 1.5 (half) points for each yak from that camp that survives. If they flip a structure, give them PPT for that and 1.5 (half) points for each incoming yak. Of course, give 1 PPK and 3 points for killing an enemy yak. Finally, keep track of how many defense events they successfully completed per session (and fix how contribution is calculated).

If that’s extended to guilds, even better. It gives us something to be proud of even when the server as a whole is sagging.

yeah, but if you make karma training a ladder all it’s own, then it could actually mean something vs competing groups.

the main idea is to have your achievement mean something, any achievement really….something that will allow you to compete vs someone else that likes playing the same way.

it’s like the simplicity of embracing competition where people play the most, run with the karma training and make a ladder from it somehow, then that guy that has 5 billion karma can talk about it with forbes and rolling stone.-shrug- – most of these players have everything already, any new trinkets are pretty much meaningless, now they want fame. The whole, there can only be 1 mindset. Anet needs a rockstar. Not some random joe that randomly joins a tournament.

lets call a spade a spade, those ladders are simply a list of who is most ocd about their preferred game mode. the most common one is pvp – midget wrestling without any armor and just a dagger is also an option. it’s all about the rules, the game itself is quite amazing, the rules …well…hrmpf! a face palm moment! :P

you need some pvpr willing to be bait, make them number one , say he’s undefeated and unbeatable, watch the pvp piranhas remove him instantly. – rinse wash repeat from that point on. wvw needs that element, not rewards…or one fixed rule, not everyone plays wvw the same way …which is an opportunity to highlight the art of pvp in all it’s glory.

think about it, karma training is fun and all, until you meet up with a group that is going for the most kills ladder lol – it will change how wvw is perceived. It should be one huge pvp training camp with many ways of competition….not just a server vs server score.

a thieves ladder alone would change the perception of wvw, I’ve seen some incredible talent solo roaming as a thief ….kittened me off actually, but i’d enjoy seeing a top 50 ladder of solo thieves from all servers and say wow to the guy that killed 5k people that way.

joneirikb.7506:

One idea that I saw mentioned in the old CDI thread about it, was to have scoring based on Point Per Capture (PPC) and Point Per Defense (PPD), and remove the Tick (PPT). And a bunch of variants of such (more points for upgrading it, more for capturing upgraded, add PPK/PPS, decay timers etc).

It wouldn’t necessarily fix the points for fighting etc, but depending on the variants, it would remove most of the population advantage for points. Once everything is taken, you can’t really runaway with the score.

One of the most important things, is that we need to get points for engaging enemies, for example if we didn’t get any points for a capture/defense unless we’re actually fighting enemy players. So PvDing empty maps doesn’t actually give anything, you want to FIND those enemy players and KILL them.

No more Evade Wars 2 :p

That would indeed be a very good change, Points Per Capture and Defense and not per tick.

Along with more PPK, and added PPK and PPC for outmanned buff and perhaps even tiered outmanned buff, this would balance things all around, off – hours vs prime time play, low vs high pop, fights vs objectives, etc.

love the idea.