Guild Wars 2

I know the title seems inflammatory but this is for genuine interest and not trolling at all. I know people have different tastes but I am very interested to hear why people like Kiel, mostly from a writer’s perspective.

Me, I personally cannot stand her, from what I have played in the story so far. She is never wrong, always right, never doubts herself and doesn’t have any flaws or notable personality past her job as a hard-working Lionguard. She even blew up a ship (granted, no people were harmed, but still, a ship) and it was okay. Even her prominent trait, being very dedicated to her job, isn’t played out in any negative way at all – it would be very interesting if she actually collapsed from exhaustion or something from working long hours and not getting enough rest. But I digress.

So why do you like Kiel? If you don’t like Kiel, you can post why here, too.

(Please don’t say ‘because you don’t like Evon’ – this isn’t for voting and is strictly based on you, as a person viewing the writing, liking Kiel for who her character is.)

Because she’s portrayed as the “good guy” and Evon the villain. Just do each of their trials; she’s trying to return the stolen goods to their rightful owners and Evon is trying to keep them for himself and his campaign. People like Ellen because she’s framed as a hero and Evon is sneaky and selfish in comparison.

I do not have a strong opinion about Kiel, for many of the reasons you said above.

I like her, because she is good and a positive character. However, because she has no (or very little) flaws and not much of a personality, I don’t find her character that interesting.

We don’t really know all that much about Kiel despite she has been in the “spotlight” for a few story updates now. I guess she’s meant for us players to symphatize with, but I just can’t get anything from her. She’s quite bland (like, unfortunately, much of the Living story & GW2 storylines in general too. IMO.)

In fact, I much rather would like a twist where she is just hoping everyone to take her lightly and wishes to amass power in the shadows, but I think what we’ll get is another Treahearne.

Before the event started, I sided with Kiel because of the rewards, but now, I side with Kiel because Evon’s dialogue is REALLY obnoxious and arrogant. I want to see him LOSE!!!

This is so much like an American election… you don’t vote for the one you like, you vote against the one you hate.

I like her hair.

I vote for evon because truth be told what would a lionguard officer know bout actual politics or even maintaining trade agreements with foreign individuals.

To be practical how is kiel going to return any of this treasure to anyone since there isn’t any viable way to actually show any of that treasure is anyone’s unless it’s marked and even then i doubt the vast majority is like that.

Evon may seem evil or whatever but we’re voting for the purposes of maintaining trade and defending lion’s arch and evon has not only the funds but combat and commanding experience from his days from the black citadel.

Kiel might have some experience but some of the cutscenes show her easy to catch off guard and that is actually bad for establishing trade with new people because if the person they are dealing with can’t answer simple questions then how can they trust these people to actually be worth their resources and time.

Pixelpumpkin.4608:

I like her hair.

This. The very same reason for me!

After all u know.. i like cats and all… but i like chicks better hahaha

Because Ellen’s name is awesome plus her personality is very intriguing (All the way back from Secrets of Southsun)

Kiel seems a bit too perfect to me. But I also dislike her because she is a Lionguard trying to get on a pirate council. She doesn’t belong there. In fact it’s a bit suspicious.

At least with Evon his goals are clear. He’s sneaky, he’s shady, he is exactly the sort of guy you need for trade negotiations. He’s not evil, he’s a pirate! He’s sly.

The Captain’s Council arent really active pirates anymore. Further if you look at their membership it already includes the owner of the LA Asura gate network and a Financer. Frankly, Evon isnt a pirate either. He’s a merchant.

I have found Ellen Kiel rather plain in the past. One of the things Im liking about the current direction its going is that she is a bit out of her element. She isnt a fool but its definately not her comfort zone and, hell, I like the idea of some honesty in a politican.

Im voting Kiel because while Evon would fit into the role of Counciler easily, I think it would be an interesting and kind okittenward fit for Kiel. I also think that Kiel is likely to ruffle feathers in the captain’s council cause she is very commited to her sense of justice.

Because Kiel from the people serving the people and is the reluctant hero type which I kind of like. Evon just reminds me of all of those sleazy politicians that I have to vote for every 4 years.

People might like Kiel because she was a minor character who kept coming back until she was major character. People might like Kiel because she kept getting the dirty jobs cleaning up other people’s problems, just like player characters always do.

Currently, my opinion of Kiel is mostly tied to my lack of opinion about Evon. Her presence in multiple Living Story elements helped to show, rather than merely tell, her role in the world, at least somewhat, and gave my characters a reason to give her attention (and me a reason to want to learn about her).

Then they let Gnashblade waltz into a dialogue scene and suddenly also be important. I had actually not realized who he was until NPCs started talking ("Ohh, that’s the Black Lion head!?"). He had zero impact on me, both as a player and as someone interested in the game’s world, until this latest patch.

I realize you requested that we not make this a "vs. Evon" style of thread, so I do owe you an apology. But Kiel has been pretty straightforward about what she’s doing -- putting on a good face for the public, ostensibly working with the player character to uphold justice, doing Magnus’s bidding -- and, even if that might be a little bland, I can’t fault her for it. She’s not great or anything, but she’s not bad, either. Evon hasn’t done a thing that we’ve really seen until now, and what they’ve given us with him is a little bit of Snidley Whiplash levels of cartoonish villainy in a few lines and a couple promises.

Personally, I don’t find her even half as frustrating as Trahearne, so I can’t quite throw my hat in with others on that.

I guess, ultimately, I wouldn’t say I like her, but I don’t see a reason to dislike her, either. And given where the story has now taken her, it’s difficult to not be influenced by comparisons to her peers when continuing to evolve that opinion.

generalraccoon.3857:

Pixelpumpkin.4608:

I like her hair.

This. The very same reason for me!

In retrospect, I think I should have given that a little context.

Helen Kiel looks very similar to my main. Same hair, almost the same colour too, faces are not that different. Could be sisters! (If sisters shared hair styles.)

So when I bump into the NPC, this tends to happen…

/say Kiel! You look amazing today! Love the hair.
/point

I don´t care about Kiel, Evon, or any of the ´characters´ that are leading this story on. Even children´s books have more ambiguity nowadays than these cartoons.

The only one that I started to feel invested in was Canach.

I would have liked to explain to you why I like, Kiel.
But I can speak little English.

so if you can read the French …

I dont “like” her..not like that

But she is a strong and positive character. I guess many gravitate toward that.

I was going to support Evon but I realized one thing: If he is elected, black lion key prices are slashed. Which means we’ll be enticed to spend money on gems. I think Arenanet has gotten enough of a cash grab from us. Besides, when i spoke to Kiel on the ship, she was a bit nicer to me than Evon was..he was simply like “I cant tell you everything”. Kiel’s dialogue made me feel like we were old buddies…

Her voice has some emotion to it, even if it is the standard serious cop voice.
In the dialogue you get when you talk with her my accomplishments are mentioned in a fairly casual way. In Audience with the Master my character mentions how at least there’s no angry karka and she replies that at least she would know what they want. Even though this dialogue might be considered bland in scripting it sounds more personal. As if she and my character have recounted a bit of a war story.

Her attitude seems more grounded compared to Evon.

Once again in the Audience where Evon talks about how he is beloved by his people like a slimy oil salesman would she merely states “Well…I’m rather well liked, I suppose”. So with that last bit there’s some form of vulnerability. She’s not doing this completely for herself. Magnus the Bloody Handed threw her into this at the end of Sky Pirates, she’s trying to do as best possible.

She knows that Evon could smear the floor with her, but she’s still going to try. I respect that. We get all this from 3 episodes of the Living Story. What do we get about Evon? He’s rich, he’s the founder of a trading company that I’m not a big fan of, and he’s only doing this to further his company.

I can’t begrudge him that last part, he’s trying to expand his company’s power. The problem I have is there’s very little interaction with him before this whole politics plotline.

Also she’s Lionguard and my main character has that design of armor because I’m writing him up as an admirer of their work. She’s cute, yeah that’s shallow but it is a factor, and overall I have had more time with her than Evon so I can’t really side with him.

Louveepine.7630:

I would have liked to explain to you why I like, Kiel.
But I can speak little English.

so if you can read the French …

I have a French friend, so go ahead and I’ll have it translated :P

Btw: Thanks all for answers so far, it is an interesting read and I want to hear more of your opinions.

Evon makes me gold from his prominent trading post. Sure he takes a bit off the top, but it’s well worth supporting easy sales, and eventually once he wins, his taxation on the TP can go towards the mighty fine pirate city of Lions Arch. I would even settle for allowing Kiel be the highest field commander of the Lionguard. Let her stay on the fields. Leave politics to the big cats.. pun intended

Louveepine.7630:

I would have liked to explain to you why I like, Kiel.
But I can speak little English.

so if you can read the French …

Or you can use Bing translator to translate it to English for you.

http://www.bing.com/translator

synk.6907:

Currently, my opinion of Kiel is mostly tied to my lack of opinion about Evon. Her presence in multiple Living Story elements helped to show, rather than merely tell, her role in the world, at least somewhat, and gave my characters a reason to give her attention (and me a reason to want to learn about her).

Then they let Gnashblade waltz into a dialogue scene and suddenly also be important. I had actually not realized who he was until NPCs started talking (“Ohh, that’s the Black Lion head!?”). He had zero impact on me, both as a player and as someone interested in the game’s world, until this latest patch.

I realize you requested that we not make this a “vs. Evon” style of thread, so I do owe you an apology. But Kiel has been pretty straightforward about what she’s doing — putting on a good face for the public, ostensibly working with the player character to uphold justice, doing Magnus’s bidding — and, even if that might be a little bland, I can’t fault her for it. She’s not great or anything, but she’s not bad, either. Evon hasn’t done a thing that we’ve really seen until now, and what they’ve given us with him is a little bit of Snidley Whiplash levels of cartoonish villainy in a few lines and a couple promises.

Personally, I don’t find her even half as frustrating as Trahearne, so I can’t quite throw my hat in with others on that.

I guess, ultimately, I wouldn’t say I like her, but I don’t see a reason to dislike her, either. And given where the story has now taken her, it’s difficult to not be influenced by comparisons to her peers when continuing to evolve that opinion.

Sums it up nigh perfectly for me, agreed.

panzer.6034:

Because she’s portrayed as the “good guy” and Evon the villain. Just do each of their trials; she’s trying to return the stolen goods to their rightful owners and Evon is trying to keep them for himself and his campaign. People like Ellen because she’s framed as a hero and Evon is sneaky and selfish in comparison.

If anything that’s why I like Evon more. I’m tired of games shoving the cliche good guy down your throat, it’s nice to have a change from that.

PVStar.3658:

If anything that’s why I like Evon more. I’m tired of games shoving the cliche good guy down your throat, it’s nice to have a change from that.

You really think the “lovable rogue” stereotype is any less overdone?

After listening to their dialogues in the cutscene and during the Candidate Trials, my inner Lawful Good character demands that I vote for Kiel, as much as I’d prefer to see the Fall of Abaddon fractal.

I don’t know why people like her. She’s a Lionguard. She’s just doing her job, that doesn’t necessarily means she’s a good guy. I don’t see anything wrong with Evon that makes him a bad guy. He’s just doing his job too. He’s got the better fractal, imo, so he gets my vote.

Cowrex.9564:

Because Ellen’s name is awesome plus her personality is very intriguing (All the way back from Secrets of Southsun)

I’d really like you to explain this because I don’t find her intriguing. Marjory is intriguing because of her background, her unique skill set, her job and allies, and an air of mystery around her. Kasmeer is intriguing because there is so much unknown about her yet she seems to be important. She’s a noble who is constantly found in places you wouldn’t expect her to be found in and she’s been involved in a lot of the story so far. Kiel is easily explained away as “it’s her job” so there’s no mystery there, we know why she’s there and who she works for. Kasmeer and Marjory are very different. They are intriguing. I can’t fault someone for finding something interesting that I don’t, but I don’t understand what it is you think is interesting about Kiel.

I don’t like Kiel because she is written as a perfect soldier type and drags the story down by acting as nothing more than a mechanical soldier devoid of personality. In Winds of Change from GW1 there was a character called Zei Ri who was much more compelling. He represented one of the moral centres of the Winds of Change story, the struggle of the Canthan people and how a militia fighting back the afflicted turned into a dangerous force. He created depth in the story because we weren’t just fighting obvious bad guys, we were fighting good people. The Ministry started out as good guys, as allies and Zei Ri reflected that, but later became the enemy, which made his character and our relationship with him more rewarding. The depth of the moral conflict in that story was very satisfying (compared to the way Kiel is written) and Zei Ri evolved throughout it to help explore who the Ministry of Purity were.

Kiel is just another soldier who does what you expect soldiers to do. She’s written as a perfect character, a Mary Sue (works hard, fights to protect the people, is a “war hero”, doesn’t look for her own interests first and they even threw in a token "she’s clever and solved the Consortium contract issue in a “shocking” way", the kind of stuff you expect from Mary Sue characters). Then look at Logan, who on paper looked a lot like Kiel, but then you remember he blew Tyria’s first chance at taking down an elder dragon resulting in the death of one of our most powerful allies (Glint) and Snaff. Suddenly he’s a lot less vanilla. As far as I know, I don’t even think Kiel was given a back story. Note I said she’s written as a perfect character, not that she’s perfectly written. Flaws are what make characters interesting, not writing flaws but character flaws. Kiel has been in the spotlight longer than any other Living Story character and has had the most opportunities to gives us something interesting and she’s done nothing with it. She’s wasting our time, even if she evolves from here, we had several Living Story chapters where she did nothing interesting. That’s story resources that could have been giving to someone with a personality.

I’m also no a fan of the way GW2 handles female characters. I actually really enjoy female heroines in fiction but Kiel just seems like another “woman can be strong too” character. It often seems like the writers strip away femininity from a character as a way of making them look tough and Guild Wars in general is especially bad at this (it didn’t stop them from making Kiel an attractive human female). It’s just another part of her personality that doesn’t exist.

I suspect the reason Kiel is liked by people is because she is a human female, was the most prominent Living Story character this year and she’s written as a perfect character which usually appeals to the lowest common denominator. The writers are using a lot of clichés in the story (Evon is just as guilty with his cartoon villain portrayal) but Kiel is probably the worst offender because she’s so bland yet so prominent. They give her a lot of the attributes that modern society raises us to respect and admire. Kiel is written as ‘good’ the noun, which makes her ‘good’ the adjective.

good
/go?od/
Adjective
To be desired or approved of.
Noun
That which is morally right; righteousness.

She is not written to be interesting.

Because Kiel is mostly a good character with best interests at heart. Evon Gnashblade simply is not a likeable person. The instance where they talk to the Zephyrites and Evon refers to her as his assistant is just insulting. That is enough for me not to like someone.

marnick.4305:

Because Kiel is mostly a good character with best interests at heart. Evon Gnashblade simply is not a likeable person. The instance where they talk to the Zephyrites and Evon refers to her as his assistant is just insulting. That is enough for me not to like someone.

Is being a good (that which is morally right; righteousness) character all it takes to be likeable? All you need to do is do the right thing and people like you? Wouldn’t you rather a character that wasn’t always good, but they had flaws or secrets or complexities to them that helped explore the world and actually tell a story?

Do you really want to play through a story where the main character is never wrong, always does the predictable right thing, always saves the day and doesn’t seem to have any thoughts of their own? They just do the right thing because it’s the right thing. Is that a compelling story to you?

I use a translator …

Result: As soon as I make a complex sentence, nobody understands anything about my post ^ ^ ’

So for those who read French:

Pour Kiel, pour ce coté pirate sans l’être, une pseudo justicière, qui n’a pas l’air d’avoir réclamer le poste au conseil.
Ceux qui veulent pas une place élue, généralement sont les plus qualifier car ils vont se soucier des gens.

Je pense que ce personnage, certes, n’a pas de charisme, mais est asser malin, et plutôt enclins a nous faire partir exploré la tyrie. Kiel est une forme d’aventurière. Et je pense qu’elle est susceptible de nous envoyer voir les profondeurs de maguuma, ou du désert de cristal, qu’elle a tout pour mettre le holà sur les injustices et vouloir s’impliquer a droite et a gauche dans d’autres pays, d’autres environnements.

Son action en faisant sauter le bateau m’a fait extrêmement plaisir, d’une certaine façon, elle ne tue pas l’asura Noll, mais s’arrange pour réparé une injustice, d’une façon dont aucun de nous aurait songer.

Vous y avez penser vous, a faire couler le navire, comme un accident? De faire disparaître le tout, et garder les mains propres? Personnellement j’aurais bien aimer que mon Avatar n’aille pas a tuer tout le temps des gens.

Pour moi, c’est un personnage qui a du potentiel, même si on la voit comme une piqueuse de rôle. (De toutes façon TOUT les personnages vont nous voler le mérite.)

Alors oui, j’aime les personnages: qui font les choses sans un intérêt derrière, qui sont juste (justice pour ceux qui ont du mal), rusés, honnêtes, silencieux, qui ne font pas de vagues, et qui contribuent finalement a un aboutissement évolutif positif. Par ce que le charisme, c’est de la connerie.

Evon a tout du commerciale sans scrupule, il me déplaît dans son art d’etre un requin du marché. Et, on devient pas un commerciale sans écraser quelques personnes. Et ça, ça me dégoûte.

Voila, je sais que beaucoup n’auront pas tout comprit, mais j’aime kiel par ce qu’elle me semble être quelqu’un de juste. Etre le héros que j’aurais aimé jouer.

I like Captain Ellen Kiel for a point I made in another thread:

As leader of the Lionguard effort against the karka, she managed to get it done in four days when the Pact took forever to just get to Orr. The karka aren’t a threat outside of Southsun Cove while the Risen are still a credible threat in some parts of southern Tyria.

I like that she managed to give the Consortium a black eye over their duplicitous use of the refugees without actually making it seem like she did anything. Remember, she didn’t take any actual credit for anything there other than keeping people safe. We all “know” it was Canach who did that dirty deed and he’ll be made to answer for it. (Heh.)

I like that she does things with authority and confidence as opposed to “I’m not sure this is going to work…” I like the fact she approaches problems intending to solve them, with a decisive effort.

I also like that people are going to be complaining about her more than Trahearne if she actually wins.

Shiren.9532:

Cowrex.9564:

Because Ellen’s name is awesome plus her personality is very intriguing (All the way back from Secrets of Southsun)

I’d really like you to explain this because I don’t find her intriguing.

But Ellen Kiel has some wonderful lines. I find her very funny and relateable in her somewhat coarse way and with her dry humour.

“Have a good day. But not too good!” cracks me up every time.

Shiren.9532:

I suspect the reason Kiel is liked by people is because she is a human female, was the most prominent Living Story character this year and she’s written as a perfect character which usually appeals to the lowest common denominator.

Funny enough, that’s how I feel about Kasmeer…

Kiriwar.7382:

Me, I personally cannot stand her, from what I have played in the story so far. She is never wrong, always right, never doubts herself and doesn’t have any flaws or notable personality past her job as a hard-working Lionguard. She even blew up a ship (granted, no people were harmed, but still, a ship) and it was okay. Even her prominent trait, being very dedicated to her job, isn’t played out in any negative way at all – it would be very interesting if she actually collapsed from exhaustion or something from working long hours and not getting enough rest. But I digress.

We only see her at her job. A lot of people look pretty close to flawless at their jobs in real life (IRL) and don’t seem to have much personality at their jobs IRL. Most on-duty police officers I have talked to have practically no personality which I am sure does not reflect what they are like off-duty.

As far as blowing up the ship goes, she waited an awful long time to do it while riots were happening everywhere and she was not alone in that plot (someone else destroyed the other contracts). I look at this as akin to what Roosevelt threatened to do in the coal strike of 1902 (he forced an agreement so the nation would have coal for the winter by threatening to take everything from both workers and owners if they did not come to an agreement). Sometimes in a crisis, the rules are broken to avert things getting much worse.

I would not like it if Kiel were being given responsibilities despite showing incompetence or was constantly yammering about her personal problems while on the job (looking at you, Destiny’s Edge). She has definitely NOT shown herself to be a savvy negotiator compared to Evon, if that makes you feel better.

I have no reason to dislike Kiel.

dybryd.1358:

PVStar.3658:

If anything that’s why I like Evon more. I’m tired of games shoving the cliche good guy down your throat, it’s nice to have a change from that.

You really think the “lovable rogue” stereotype is any less overdone?

I would upvote this a dozen times if I could.

Lovable rogues, super-competent rule breakers and brooding types rule fiction because they are entertaining, seem to have depth and are easy to write. The only people I like IRL who act that way are relatives and they have my instincts telling me to love them despite how they act.

dybryd.1358:

You really think the “lovable rogue” stereotype is any less overdone?

Word.

I like Kiel because she’s hands-on, down-to-earth and dedicated to a dangerous and difficult job in the service of others. Is she shallow? Sure. As is every single character in this game. For all the great lore, the writing is incredibly shallow overall, which is one of my biggest disappointments. At least Kiel is someone we actually get to spend some time with. And while she may be out of her element right now — which I too do like — the ending of the Southsun arc shows that she knows how to use her brain to get the best out of a bad situation.

So while she is hardly a particularly engaging character by broader standards, by this game’s standards she is above the cut, to me at least. Gnashblade on the other hand has absolutely nothing appealing to him, and there is NO WAY I’d ever support the gambling-with-real-money BS of the Black Lion Chests and other slot machines from the gem store.

Shiren.9532:

I’m also no a fan of the way GW2 handles female characters. I actually really enjoy female heroines in fiction but Kiel just seems like another “woman can be strong too” character. It often seems like the writers strip away femininity from a character as a way of making them look tough and Guild Wars in general is especially bad at this (it didn’t stop them from making Kiel an attractive human female). It’s just another part of her personality that doesn’t exist.

What is “femininity”? And why should a world in which women are equal in every way NOT have female characters who are not constrained by real-world stereotypes based on inequality?

I want MORE female characters like Ellen. People who can’t be forced into those stereotypical boxes exist despite massive pressure (and often abuse) to conform, and they are not a iota less of a woman/man, thank you very much.

Chadramar.8156:

What is “femininity”? And why should a world in which women are equal in every way NOT have female characters who are not constrained by real-world stereotypes based on inequality?

I want MORE female characters like Ellen. People who can’t be forced into those stereotypical boxes exist despite massive pressure (and often abuse) to conform, and they are not a iota less of a woman/man, thank you very much.

What stereotypical boxes?

One of my favourite female characters in fiction is Balsa from Seirei no Moribito. She was probably one of the most skilled fighters in that story (if not the most skilled) and not only did she stand on equal ground with her male opponents, she often defeated them. Despite this she was also an incredibly strong maternal character. She cared for a young child (that wasn’t her own) like a mother would. That gave her character a whole other dimension. I’m also a fan of Sword of the Stranger in which a man cares for a boy in a similair manner, so I’m aware that it can go both ways.

As far as I know, women might be ‘equal’ but that does not mean the same. The writers of GW2 often seem to think that to write a strong female character, they need to essentially write a man, then give them the body of a woman. Look at Eir. She was probably one of the more likeable members of Destiny’s Edge, yet she does a very “norn” thing and abandons her child to chase her own legend. It’s almost like we’re being told that being a mother, being maternal is something that strong female characters shouldn’t do. One of the most obvious ‘equal’ races in Tyria would be the charr, yet their society has children taken away from the mother’s shortly after birth and Almorra, while stating she will grieve, showed little emotion when it came to the death of her own son (he duty and mission came first). It’s as if we are being told that being a mother is a sign of weakness (despite Bear and the Pale tree being maternal, how often do they fight?). That’s just one example of an aspect unique to women which is often abandoned to make women look “tougher” or equal to men.

I’ll get away from the women in Tyria debate now because it’s highly inflammatory (as is evident in your loaded response) and slightly off topic. The core of why I have this particular issue with Kiel is that she lacks complexity or anything that makes her compelling. She’s a very one dimensional character and is almost always written as a goody two shoes with the cliché ‘tough chick’ thing GW2 does so often.

Shiren.9532:

She’s a very one dimensional character and is almost always written as a goody two shoes with the cliché ‘tough chick’ thing GW2 does so often.

I’ll grant you the simplistic character thing, but the “tough chick” . . . I dunno, I always took it that was her “on-duty self”, with the problem being she never found the inclination to STOP being on duty. I . . . don’t know if she knows how to stop being Inspector Ellen Kiel of the Lionguard or Captain Ellen Kiel long enough to be “Ellen”.

As for the rest of your post, it’s worthy of thought but the problem? I don’t know how everyone seems to think one either must be masculine or feminine when you can just be someone. A strong female character doesn’t necessarily have to demonstrate femininity, to be a strong female character. She needs to be a strong character, who happens to be female.

The issue is, and it will always be for a while yet, is what each person thinks of when you say “strong female character”. Are you thinking Ellen Ripley (Alien)? Princess Leia (Star Wars)? Sarah Kerrigan (Starcraft)? How about Hermoine Granger (Harry Potter)? Are you thinking someone else, like Sarah Conner (Terminator), Kate Beckett (Castle)? River Song, Amy Pond, Sarah Jane? (Doctor Who)? Cersei Lannister, Arya Stark, Catelyn Stark (A Song of Ice and Fire / Game of Thrones)?

All of these listed here are strong characters, but for how many of them does “being a woman” matter, and to what magnitude? I know this got off topic, but really these questions are something to think about, not just toss off an answer for. There’s a bonus question too in there:

Does a character’s race, gender, sexuality (or lack thereof), rank, job . . . do these have to define a character, and are they required to be present for a “strong” character? Or do you just need a personality, a set of morals they follow, and some really good writing?

In my opinion, Kiel is a generic and boring character. She doesn’t act ego once and being a lionguard is her life and she will do everything to assure it’s ok. In real life ok, that would be a logical choice but in Gw2 i’d prefer evon. he’s a businessman and knows what to do also he’s a much more interesting character who actually has a personality unlike kiel.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I don’t know how everyone seems to think one either must be masculine or feminine when you can just be someone. A strong female character doesn’t necessarily have to demonstrate femininity, to be a strong female character. She needs to be a strong character, who happens to be female.

Exactly. Thank you.

Does a character’s race, gender, sexuality (or lack thereof), rank, job . . . do these have to define a character, and are they required to be present for a “strong” character?

Definitely not. Depending on setting and context, these aspects may of course have a smaller or greater impact, but if they are used in a pre- or proscriptive instead of descriptive manner, the result is a weakened character and a lack of diversity. This is especially true if our real-world perceptions of what female/gay/black/whatever people MUST be like are forced onto a setting in which the conditions that shaped those perceptions (many of them terribly negative: sexism, racism, homophobia, etc.) do not exist.

pownguin.9205:

I don’t know why people like her. She’s a Lionguard. She’s just doing her job, that doesn’t necessarily means she’s a good guy. I don’t see anything wrong with Evon that makes him a bad guy. He’s just doing his job too. He’s got the better fractal, imo, so he gets my vote.

Because bad ppl don’t tend to join a force dedicated to helping ppl out, securing trade routes and defending every peon on the road from every ooglie booglie they pass? Those kind of people go into politics. Like Evon. Who comes across like every slimy politician in every campaign I’ve lived through.

Me? I was on the bit more then neutral side of her till she blew up that ship. Screwing over the Consortium and that asura running the island. The comments she made with her boss there, about making an asura mad just made it better, had me howling. Cause I FEEL THE SAME WAY.

I have little love for the asura. I spent to much time listening to their npc chatter. Josef Mengela would be proud of em. So loved seeing one get screwed, almost as much as I love their death screams in any given event. Killing Inquest is my vocation. That and the dredge. I sometime can’t decide who I hate more.

:}

But yeah. That scene put me on her side. Evon eavesdropping on her and her boss and deciding to end run their idea, just kitten ed me off more.

Because waypoint cost reduction.

Wait, were there other reasons?

Both characters are rather forgettable in my opinion. I’m playing both sides just to maintain the status quo. I don’t care one-way or the other which one wins the election, I don’t even know/care what will happen when one of them wins, I hear something about a new fractal and some reduced costs to waypoints or trading post and it really doesn’t affect me in the slightest so I don’t care about the outcome. The rewards/benefits for one side winning aren’t clearly defined unless you dig for them and I have no interest in digging for them so I just continue to play the game how I always have.

I don’t like Kiel because she is obnoxious and bullying. I don’t appreciate someone threatening to perforate my spleen on a first meeting. I guess they were going for the “strong woman” type, but they have made her personally unlikable.

Personally, I find the choice between a pushy kitten and an evil cat a bit uninspiring. I’d definitely rather be sat next to the cat on a long plane flight though.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

As for the rest of your post, it’s worthy of thought but the problem? I don’t know how everyone seems to think one either must be masculine or feminine when you can just be someone. A strong female character doesn’t necessarily have to demonstrate femininity, to be a strong female character. She needs to be a strong character, who happens to be female.

Does a character’s race, gender, sexuality (or lack thereof), rank, job . . . do these have to define a character, and are they required to be present for a “strong” character? Or do you just need a personality, a set of morals they follow, and some really good writing?

When I’m talking about strong female characters I’m talking about characters with a backbone, with conviction, characters that can hold their own in the world and specific to this case, a character that is physically tough and can fight on the front lines. I’m not talking about a character that has strong writing (you can be weak in a story but be written very well). You don’t have to be feminine to be a strong female character, but GW2 too often takes it the opposite way, to make a female character a tough warrior that can fight on the front lines, they remove femininity from them. “Strong” and “feminine” are not mutually exclusive but GW2 too often treats them as though they are. Several of the characters you listed are quite feminine despite having their own strength (whether it be physical strength or strength of character) that lets them hold their own in the world around them.

Shiren.9532:

When I’m talking about strong female characters I’m talking about characters with a backbone, with conviction, characters that can hold their own in the world and specific to this case, a character that is physically tough and can fight on the front lines. I’m not talking about a character that has strong writing (you can be weak in a story but be written very well). You don’t have to be feminine to be a strong female character, but GW2 too often takes it the opposite way, to make a female character a tough warrior that can fight on the front lines, they remove femininity from them. “Strong” and “feminine” are not mutually exclusive but GW2 too often treats them as though they are. Several of the characters you listed are quite feminine despite having their own strength (whether it be physical strength or strength of character) that lets them hold their own in the world around them.

But again, they don’t need to have femininity to be a strong female character. I find myself having problems since there aren’t that many characters who have strong feminine “vibes” coming off them who are central to story. Even Countess Anise (I do love her style) doesn’t register as “feminine” as much as “illusionist protector of the Queen”. Even the Queen doesn’t quite come off as feminine, she comes off as charming.

Of course, what exactly do we mean by “feminine”? Sex appeal? That’s kind of a narrow definition of it. Motherly? I think that’s just “nurturing female” and there’s plenty of that feel in some characters who don’t register as female to me first as much as “someone protecting a weaker, younger character”.

So what is it, and how do you know if you see it?

By the way, Queen Jennah, Countess Anise, and Marjory all would be good examples of “strong characters”, and it’s a pity since the first isn’t present as much, the second disappears entirely, and the third has that . . . noir thing going on which is slightly out of sync with the game.

Sleel.8365:

pownguin.9205:

I don’t know why people like her. She’s a Lionguard. She’s just doing her job, that doesn’t necessarily means she’s a good guy. I don’t see anything wrong with Evon that makes him a bad guy. He’s just doing his job too. He’s got the better fractal, imo, so he gets my vote.

Because bad ppl don’t tend to join a force dedicated to helping ppl out, securing trade routes and defending every peon on the road from every ooglie booglie they pass? Those kind of people go into politics. Like Evon. Who comes across like every slimy politician in every campaign I’ve lived through.

There’s plenty of bad police men in the world. If they give you orders that you don’t agree with and start stating your rights they get scared. There’s also people who go into the army because they don’t have anything to do with their life. This doesn’t always mean they’re a good person. I’m not saying Kiel is going to become elected and start killing people left and right, because I think if she does get elected Lion’s Arch is still going to be the same place with small changes here and there. I’m just saying you don’t have to be a good person to follow orders and get paid.

I don’t like her. The only thing that made her slightly human was the fact she blew up the contracts, before that she couldn’t of been more 1 dimensional. Look at the 3 from your personal story. They were strong characters.

I find Kiel, Braham, Rox, lord Faren, Lady Kashmere all to be quite bland, they all have one type of personality. Canach has a slight edge as does Majory.

I do like Evon Gnashblade. I see him as loyal to Lions arch, he’s greedy, ambitious, He’ll be someone you wouldn’t want as your enemy but he also seems like the type that if he’s your friend he’ll never double cross you (only picked this up from the short story – he has a good heart and refused to use bully tactics on the LA people). In the short time you’ve met the guy, he didn’t trust you and lied to you (wise enough not to show his hand when he wasn’t sure who you were). Then you did a job for him and he was completely honest on his intentions to where the loot was going. He didn’t falter when questioned by the zephyrites leader while Kiel stumbled. He’s a good character.

Kiriwar.7382:

(Please don’t say ‘because you don’t like Evon’ – this isn’t for voting and is strictly based on you, as a person viewing the writing, liking Kiel for who her character is.)

Umm because of this?