RNG isn't the problem, gems are

RNG isn't the problem, gems are

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Posted by: ekimsfree.9406

ekimsfree.9406

Every event players posts about not being able to get that pretty new skin. Begging for an end to it and why don’t they just put the skins in the gem store. Anet won’t. They would lose too much money cause most players would just trade gold for gems to buy them. In fact, the ability to trade is what’s hurting most of the game.

They make it hard to make money for casual players to keep players from being able to trade for too many gems.

They nerf farm spots to control the player income.

I bet if players couldn’t trade for gems, RNG would mostly end. The gem store would explode with skins.

To be clear, I don’t see this as malicious or evil, just a company who made some bad design choices and trying to survive. Every thing they do is in response to their business model which has severe sustainability issues.

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Posted by: Lisa.6102

Lisa.6102

Playing Devils advocate here,

Tkittenence of most business models is to make money, if not they are essentially a charity.

Yes they would still make money from skins sold in the shop, but not nearly as much.

Perhaps they need to rethink the balance between RNG and actual skins that can be bought through the gems store.

There will always be people willing to take a chance on RNG rather than buying something outright.

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Posted by: ekimsfree.9406

ekimsfree.9406

Of course there are other ways. I think their vision of being the top MMO added with thier expectations multiplied by the games cost is influencing their choice of which model to pursue.

They have the statistics on all of this, who buys what and when and how much.

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Posted by: Onshidesigns.1069

Onshidesigns.1069

Anet and Ncsoft forgets they provide a service to players. They could learn some things from the hospitality industry.

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Posted by: Nightarch.2943

Nightarch.2943

1+
I believe they should remove the conversion of gold into gems and restore everything they did to nerf farming or rewards in the game. I just want to feel rewarded for the time I invest playing.

Guild Wars 2 is not a sequel to the original Guild Wars but merely an alternative story setting.

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Posted by: CMF.5461

CMF.5461

One thing that is making this drastically more bearable is the fact that the regular coffers drop from anywhere and very frequently. Getting a chance to gamble is more satisfying than gambling on your chance to gamble at a chance for a item….doubling it up made it horrendous.

At least this way I can wander around and feel like I"m making an effort.

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Posted by: Ghoulina.2976

Ghoulina.2976

Meh, i don’t feel gems are the issue. If anet spent the time to produce armor skins as well, for the events, and sell all the above on the gem store straight out, they would make as much money as they would with people swapping gold for gems and purchasing coffers.

Mîs: Careful what you say. The moderators are watching, and ignorance is strength.
JQ-80: Mes/Eng/Ele/Thief/Guard/Rang/Nec/War

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Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

In fact, the ability to trade is what’s hurting most of the game.

How? It’s not depriving Anet of any money – all those gems still have to be bought with real cash (just by different people).
Remember, gold <→ gem exchange is a trade system that works between players. Neither gems nor gold are generated by game.

Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November

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Posted by: ekimsfree.9406

ekimsfree.9406

They put dragon skins in the shop I would easily trade my gold for gems for them. So how in this process does Anet generate revenue? Whereas if I want a realistic chance at one with the current system I would have to buy an enormous amounts of crates that would easily exceed the cost if they were in the shop. Add the psychology of “a chance to win” and I would potentially keep buying after I ran out of gold at which point I would have to use real cash.

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Posted by: Torca.5162

Torca.5162

In fact, the ability to trade is what’s hurting most of the game.

How? It’s not depriving Anet of any money – all those gems still have to be bought with real cash (just by different people).
Remember, gold <-> gem exchange is a trade system that works between players. Neither gems nor gold are generated by game.

This is true, there are players that buy thier gold with gems because they hate the grinding farm.

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Posted by: OtakuDFifty.2965

OtakuDFifty.2965

I think the major problem is that the Rich Coffers just plain have no inherent value to them.

Black Lion Chests have a fair number of “jackpot” items, and at least are guaranteed to give you items you can’t normally get in-game (or are limited to a chance daily). What happens if you don’t get a ticket from your Rich Coffer? You get trash that takes maybe three minutes to acquire through normal play.

You know what would have made a world of difference? If Jade tickets could be also be traded for Jorbreakers, and every Rich Coffer had a guaranteed 1-5 Jorbreakers. At least then you could probably plan to set a limit for yourself, and if you struck out you’d at least have made SIGNIFICANT progress. I mean, face it – NO ONE is earning wings through Jorbreakers until taffy is down to 1-3c.

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Posted by: OtakuDFifty.2965

OtakuDFifty.2965

Alternatively, I’d gladly do away with the “ticket” system and having a 100% chance of getting a random skin. Sure, you’d rage when you got a skin you didn’t want, but at least it’s SOMETHING.

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Posted by: Orun.8453

Orun.8453

OtakuDFifty, your solution is both elegant and perfect! The only reason this isn’t the way this was implemented was b/c screw you loyal PAYING customer…

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Posted by: Orun.8453

Orun.8453

I would also like to add that they still have the ability to do this by just giving people who opened Xrich coffers the appropriate number of jorbreakers (they did this with the salvage bug and black lion kits, I don’t see why they can’t send people something else in a similar fashion).

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Posted by: Eridani.8317

Eridani.8317

Meh, i don’t feel gems are the issue. If anet spent the time to produce armor skins as well, for the events, and sell all the above on the gem store straight out, <strong>they would make as much money as they would with people swapping gold for gems and purchasing coffers. </strong>

Well in other threads there’s people saying they’ve spent hundreds of dollars buying coffers to try and get skins. The phrase “more money than sense” springs to mind. Nevertheless, I don’t think the increase in people buying them if they were to just sell skins would make it balance out (but that’s just speculations).

Personally, I’ve been saying it from launch, I would rather this game just had a subscription than this insidious gem store. I mean I want content introduced that is going to enhance the game, most of what we are seeing is just more ways for them to make money.

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Posted by: Cameirus.8407

Cameirus.8407

its pay to skin.

As cosmetics are endgame in GW2, its pay to win, plain and simple.

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Posted by: CntrlAltDefeat.1465

CntrlAltDefeat.1465

“Yes they would still make money from skins sold in the shop, but not nearly as much.”-Referring to retailing of skin covers.

You are in fact wrong. There is a supreme reason why every retail business in the known world that operates for profits transparently sells an item or service for money. It is because it is the only business model that works.

NCSOFT may make an influx of revenue derived from selling RNG items, but as players who use real world money or time to purchase these items and continually fail to achieve the desired item, their trust in the vendor diminishes quickly over time. Although I cannot see, or will be showed any sales information, being an economics person I am more than willing to say now that with every successive item of RNG nature that has been released, it’s sales have gone down. It started with dye pacts, flame and frost skins, flame and frost exclusive dyes, south sun skins and now with jade weapons. It is proven sales fact that a 90% satisfied customer has a 30% chance of using your business again. A 95% satisfied customer has a 70% chance of using your business again. In short, a single percentile point increase in satisfaction equates to far more likelihood of continued business…again i reiterate, that is why every business for profit model operates this way. Every business model as part of their mission statement will in some way say something to the effect of,’ Provide high quality etc etc etc with a premium on customer satisfaction.’ Or words to that effect; because it is the only proven business model to work over the longevity of the business.

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Posted by: kRiza krimos.1637

kRiza krimos.1637

its pay to skin.

As cosmetics are endgame in GW2, its pay to win, plain and simple.

I think you have no clue what pay to win means. If you will be stronger, faster, or in any way have advantage over your oppenent then yes its pay to win.

Just because cosmetics play major role in game design doesnt mean that you won by getting skin, your reasoning is ridiculous.

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Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

its pay to skin.

As cosmetics are endgame in GW2, its pay to win, plain and simple.

Honestly, it wouldn’t be as horrible if it actually was true. Unfortunately, currently it seems to be a “pay to lose” approach.

Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November

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Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

You are in fact wrong. There is a supreme reason why every retail business in the known world that operates for profits transparently sells an item or service for money. It is because it is the only business model that works.
[…]
Or words to that effect; because it is the only proven business model to work over the longevity of the business.

That seems to be the problem. They are not going for the longevity, but for the short-term approach – the one when you try to get as much as possible from your customers before they leave.
This works in web browser games due to the low customer number and high retention. It won’t work in the long term in a game that plans to have a really massive player number (because it IS actually possible to run out of possible customers).

Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November

(edited by Astralporing.1957)

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Posted by: Coltz.5617

Coltz.5617

Why are people complaining about this? It is A LOT better than Halloween with the horrible RNG with BLACK LION CHESTS and a highly inaccessible Key to open it.. unless you PAY with gems. If you paid with gems you would get the same rng rate as the dragons coffers we have now.. ( which is a lot easier to find and doesn’t require a key ).

It has been a big improvement already, althought it is still a lil hard to get these skins. Anet certainly doesn’t deserve these RNG whinings, Having something hard to get is a good thing. There will be other events which means many more chances for these items in the future im sure.

- I infract cause I’m passionate about the game-
“ALL IS VAIN”
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/gf-left-me-coz-of-ladderboar/page/6#post3486969

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Posted by: KorbanDallas.7389

KorbanDallas.7389

I don’t feel that RNG nor the gems are actually an issue, but how they are gone about could both use a bit of tweaking. Just bear with me for a minute as I elaborate, and then feel free to counterpoint or discuss it after you’ve read it.

RNG is by all means the fairest system around, as it gives every single person the same chance to get something. The problem with the RNG arises when something is so rare (having such a small chance to get) that hardly anyone sees it – and this is the part about RNG that is the double edged sword. Whereas in another system, a player could work towards completing a specific form of content (Raids, super hard boss fight, challenging puzzle) to get it some players would be incapable (aren’t good enough to do a boss fight, not enough time for a raid, whatever) and therefore would consider it “against them” since they couldn’t do it. On the other hand, RNG does tend to lend itself to a lot of people grinding, as the more you do something the more perceived chance you have of obtaining it (If a baddy has a 1 in 20 chance of dropping something, the guy who can kill him 50 times has a theoretical better chance of obtaining that drop then the guy who kills him 5 times, even though each of those times is the same 1 in 20 chance).

Gems aren’t a bad thing either, as it allows for people with money to support what they like or otherwise buy things quickly without impacting the game too much. The trade is also not necessarily a bad thing, as it allows everyone to get those items with enough effort, even without spending actual cash to do so (in the long run simply taking longer to get said items due to exchange rates). The major issue here is how inflated all the gem prices feel. Every item in the store feels as though its over 400 gems, and every 80 gems costs 1 USD. When everything costs 400 gems, that means for the lowliest of things you end up throwing 5 dollars at it (which is reasonable for something like an entire outfit such as the original armor skins like Primordial but seems outrageous for something like a box that MIGHT give you something halfway decent).

I think part of the way to fix this as far as the player base is concerned has actually been indirectly derived from other suggestions way back when. Instead of having this “lotto” for every form of new skin they place out, they could make them available another way (for example, new armor / weapon sets tied to new dungeons, and turn all dungeon tokens into a form of currency [no stack size] and make a currency window that displays all forms of currency at any given time). Then they could take holidays (such as halloween or wintersday) that are easily turned into a short-period event into the lotto chests, with (preferably) an option to just flat out buy a ticket with gems for a higher cost then the chests (whereas the lucky folks could buy chests and have the chance of getting the ticket cheaper) – would work better with cheaper than normal chests.

}——————————-{
http://avsla-gw2.blogspot.com/

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Posted by: RyuDragnier.9476

RyuDragnier.9476

@KorbanDallas Best post in this thread, and you seem to be the only one here who gets it.

[hS]
PvE Main – Zar Poisonclaw – Daredevil
WvW Main – Ghost Mistcaller – Herald

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Posted by: Reivaxe.1358

Reivaxe.1358

I think part of the way to fix this as far as the player base is concerned has actually been indirectly derived from other suggestions way back when. Instead of having this “lotto” for every form of new skin they place out, they could make them available another way (for example, new armor / weapon sets tied to new dungeons, and turn all dungeon tokens into a form of currency [no stack size] and make a currency window that displays all forms of currency at any given time). Then they could take holidays (such as halloween or wintersday) that are easily turned into a short-period event into the lotto chests, with (preferably) an option to just flat out buy a ticket with gems for a higher cost then the chests (whereas the lucky folks could buy chests and have the chance of getting the ticket cheaper) – would work better with cheaper than normal chests.

I have been yelling this HARD.
MY solution is pretty much this.
Sell RNG boxs for those whose gambling addiction you wanna exploit. Make them cheaper than the ticket which IS ALSO SOLD on the Gemstore (sayyy, ticket cost about as much kitten rich coffers now where kitten rich coffers cost less than they do now). Make it WORTH IT but having the Gem-store-boxes RNG heavily favor the player. Say 1 in 5 chance at a skin for each coffer. There, now people can either test their luck and get 0-5 tickets or not test the RNG gods and just buy the tickets.
Here’s another grand idea! Actually make GOOD, WELL designed skins a common thing on the Gemstore.

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Posted by: Craven Mage.8203

Craven Mage.8203

The problem is not RNG or that you can use gems to get it. The problem is that Anet has restricted the ability to sell tickets on the trading post. Halloween and Xmas events allowed items to be freely traded.

Say a country or union restricted the trade of an item, let’s say diamonds. The EU or US prohibits a person from buying a diamond, people can only acquire diamonds from mining. Are people going to run out and mine diamonds? In real life a black market would form, people would sell them illegally to those that want it. With the increase in price, people might run out and mine diamonds. In a video game you can’t from a black market, people who wish to purchase a rare resource can’t do it because it has been restricted. This essentially de-values in game gold, as you can’t use it to purchase the items you want.

If weapon tickets were allowed to be sold via trading house then this would essentially encourage a transfer of wealth. Bob is a new player and has 5g total, he gets a weapon ticket from a coffer. Bob looks on Trading post and sees weapon ticket go for 100g, and sell the weapon ticket. Bob, a new play, now has 100g. This was possible because Steve the hardcore gamer has piled up 500g from farming. He wanted a skin and he wanted it now, so purchased for 100g. Direct transfer of wealth completely based on luck of getting a weapon skin.

I have seen this happen personally for myself during Halloween and for my friend during xmas. If you get lucky and find a rare item or drop, you make a lot of money. And this is more efficient than trading money → gems <→ gold. It takes money out the equation for most people, which can hurt profits for Anet.

Anet does want to make people happy and they want people to keep putting money into Trading post. A happy customer is a frequent customer, but these to ideals are at odds with each other and will conflict. If everyone could purchase an item, it would not be rare or exclusive, and sales would decrease. If very few people can get it, then it is to rare and sales will decrease. They are trying to find the sweet spot, where there is just enough to get people coming back for more.

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Posted by: Webba.3071

Webba.3071

I dont really understand why Anet doesn’t just increase the tax on purchasing gems with in game gold if that is such a dent to their income, and reduce the cost of gems for real money at the same time to encourage people to go that way. These are both things they have complete control over, the idea that they have to use RNG to keep the gem store afloat when literally every element of the economy is under their direct control seems very strange to me.

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Posted by: Zemarca.6218

Zemarca.6218

Cant they solve this by making a skin ticket fairly expensive. They should look at the average players current gold and price the tickets accordingly ( just high enough to encourage gem purchases with cash). Say something like 2000 gems or greater.

I currently have about 45g and do not farm a whole lot. If i exchange, that gives me about 1500 gems give or take 100 gems (rate 3g = 100gems). They could also increase the exchange rate at times like these to try and help.

Doesnt make sense to have some items RNG like weapons and other that you can buy out right like quagan backpack.

I am sure they will not change anything no matter how much people complain. They are making money, but at some point the customer satisfaction is going to catch up with them but until then I am sure it will be the same as it always has been.

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Posted by: butch.8136

butch.8136

Or they could keep the current system but just make the tickets sellable on the TP.

Razor xxxx (Desolation ; Off)
Bring back: ‘Gamer’ title + MAT’s!
Throw out: Hotjoin!

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Posted by: Zeivu.3615

Zeivu.3615

Only if you could sell it on the TP. (Like what they did for Halloween)

Alternatively, I’d gladly do away with the “ticket” system and having a 100% chance of getting a random skin. Sure, you’d rage when you got a skin you didn’t want, but at least it’s SOMETHING.

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Posted by: Vahkris.6847

Vahkris.6847

Gems aren’t the problem, it’s how the RNG is set up and the lack of mitigating systems to the downsides of RNG. This way is actually slightly backwards from how skins are normally gotten. In the rest of the game, for the most part, you could work towards a skin (temple skins, dungeon skins, etc) or buy it off the trading post directly. These Jade skins (and the Fused/Sclerite ones) are/were RNG only, meaning you could try extremely hard to get one and still never get it. RNG systems need some sort of mitigation factor so that you will eventually get one even if the RNG is bad for you.

If we’re all piping in on what they should change, I might as well:

1. Beginning of event, have coffers (frequent drop, as is) and rich coffers (gem store). Coffers work as current, rich coffers have much lower chance of junk (candy, fireworks), so players don’t feel like they spent gems on something that would take 2 minutes to get.

2. Put more than just 1-2 interesting items in the coffers, which a significantly (though still not guaranteed) chance of getting the non-junk/token items. Main source of those items should be the normal coffers. Instead, put the mini, the ticket, other skins and items related to the event (like Kasmeer’s armor, or some other skin), BLC keys, and even Jorbreakers (it’s a token, but it’s worth a lot of farming of the candy, so players don’t see it as huge of a waste). Even if you don’t get the ticket, you should relatively easily get SOMETHING interesting (like 1 in 4 or so) for your gems. Make those other items sellable on the trading post or something.

3. Halfway through the event, put the tickets sellable on the trading post, account-bound. Note: Tell the player base you’re doing this ahead of time. The price on these could be higher…players seem to hate the RNG far more than the price.

4. After the event, put the tickets into the BLC and the rest of the items into either the BLC or the next coffer. You want those other interesting items in the coffers. This increases the BLC’s worth over time as more weapon skins become available for the random chance.

This creates a setup where the coffers become the only source of the tickets for a couple weeks, meaning players have a chance of getting them before anyone else (a driving force for buying the rich coffers). If you hate RNG, though, you have to delay gratification to get them…but you WILL get them, so you don’t hate the coffers as much. The regular coffers provide access to the various materials and tokens for the event, but will still award the interesting items over time, and they drop like…well, candy, so they’re useful.

I really think something like that is the best setup that provides an incentive to buy the boxes, but doesn’t feel like they’re restricting players from getting something nice if they’re unlucky.

(edited by Vahkris.6847)

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Posted by: PolarisNova.3867

PolarisNova.3867

Stop gem > gold conversion, and you are just giving potential gold sellers business. Sorry, but I totally disagree, and can’t disagree enough. I do not think for one minute conversion is harming the game. The people that are able to play and even influence the TP to an extent are generally pretty good at making in-game gold without needing to convert gems.

~Lady Amelia of the House of Rose~

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Posted by: TheBigfootNZ.4605

TheBigfootNZ.4605

In fact, the ability to trade is what’s hurting most of the game.

How? It’s not depriving Anet of any money – all those gems still have to be bought with real cash (just by different people).
Remember, gold <-> gem exchange is a trade system that works between players. Neither gems nor gold are generated by game.

Its funny I mentioned this in chat in LA few days back after finding out that the little mini packs only went to those who used real cash in the gem store and was told I dont understand the system or economics and was being entitled, since I didnt contribute to anets coffers and my ‘time is also money’ argument was stupid (given I had to spend my time farming stuff for hours over days to get the 24+ gold for 800gems I regularly buy when I can, for some other ‘cash for gems’ buyer wanted. I dont run dungeons so its kinda harder to gather funds quickly).

Basically I said me buying gems with gold also nets anet money since i have to get Gems from others wanting my gold, so without me wanting some ones gems they wouldn’t be able to spend cash for gems for my gold (yeah thats a mess of a sentence thats hard to follow).

Somehow though im a moocher to a number of players… thing is, as ive mentioned before if they stuck up skins I wanted on the TP at a reasonable gem price id probably use cash to get my gems simply to avoid the gold farm. As would alot of others… so how doing so wouldnt gather as much cash as rng boxs baffles me (might not inject cash as rapidly as rng boxes do, but it would do so in the long run and it would probably do so alot longer, especially if they dont make the skins limited time like they seem to love doing, which in of itself is simply a way of making people panic and dump cash before they miss out). All seems to be about large quick profit over a decent long term profit and a happy custom base.

Vardkona – 80 Guard, Mew Nickleheart – 80 Eng
Howling Jimmy – 80 Necro, The Six Demon Bag – 54 Ele
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(edited by TheBigfootNZ.4605)

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Posted by: DeadlySynz.3471

DeadlySynz.3471

I’ve never really understood why they allowed gold to be traded for gems. I’ve never bothered to actually do this myself. Looking at the exchange rate now, and given I can usually pull in 7-8g a night in WvW, I could easily snag 300 gems a night.. hmm…

I like the OP’s idea, just outright remove the ability to exchange gold for gems.

Or perhaps create something called a premium gem (which you can only buy). Then put skins up for premium gems only. The current gems we have now can be used to exchange for everything like boosts and character slots etc..

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Posted by: Duke Nukem.6783

Duke Nukem.6783

you make it sound like they arnt making alot of money off this game and this model…it is working, you just want to spend less money, i dont mind the way they are doing it at all, i buy alot from the gem store although i do not buy gamble items ( no keys or coffers)

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Posted by: Killface.1896

Killface.1896

I’ve never really understood why they allowed gold to be traded for gems. I’ve never bothered to actually do this myself. Looking at the exchange rate now, and given I can usually pull in 7-8g a night in WvW, I could easily snag 300 gems a night.. hmm…

I like the OP’s idea, just outright remove the ability to exchange gold for gems.

Or perhaps create something called a premium gem (which you can only buy). Then put skins up for premium gems only. The current gems we have now can be used to exchange for everything like boosts and character slots etc..

They would lose so many players if they start adding P2W system so that not gonna happen ;P