Guild Wars 2

I’m just worried about the way it seems there’s a forced narrative around content. Between the Aetherblades, Molten Alliance, etc, a lot of players have said that nothing in the Living Story feels connected; that it’s all designed as content and then the writers are forced to tie it together with a story.

This seems like proof still of that. Something that’s clearly a WvW feature, and was designed for WvW players, is now forcing the writers to include it in the narrative as part of the story, regardless of how much sense it makes or how compelling an idea it is. This is part of what’s so unbelievable about the writing. Nothing feels natural, and in order to achieve the narrative you have to way overstep the boundaries of the lore. It’s why, for example, many of us look at the Aetherblades as lore-breaking because they just scream “someone wanted steampunk in Tyria” and then after the content is designed it’s just written into the canon, even though Tyria has never had, and never should have had steampunk.

I would much rather see a return to overarching, campaign-style story where the narrative directs the content (Factions, Nightfall), not the content directing the narrative.

Why do people keep assuming that adding the Living Story parts to the EotM is something done after EotM was decided upon?
It is highly likely that the living story have been part of the release of EotM since they started planning it.

lordkrall.7241:

Why do people keep assuming that adding the Living Story parts to the EotM is something done after EotM was decided upon?
It is highly likely that the living story have been part of the release of EotM since they started planning it.

Because WvW, PvP, and PvE have absolutely nothing to do with each other. WvW and PvP only exist in the abstract canon as part of the mists.

It’s trying to explain game mechanics using the story, and it doesn’t work. It’s like waypoints. They’re clearly nothing but a function of the game, and trying to explain them in a way that’s canonical not only doesn’t make sense, it hurts the lore and the believability of the world.

Part of building a world within a game is recognizing when something clearly exists only because the game’s function or balance needs it. Guns in Tyria can fire infinite rounds and never need to reload. Are you going to try and explain that in the canon? No, it’s just part of the game’s balance, and the logical explanation is that in reality the guns DO have limited ammo and DO need reloading, it’s just not considered in gameplay because it would make guns terrible.

In the Roleplay world we have IC and OOC; In-Character and out-of-character, to define actions which actually happen in the world and which are taking place in the context of a game. When designing the world, they could also stand for in-canon and out-of-canon, because there are many things in Guild Wars that should continue to exist out-of-canon because they’re game features.

Palador.2170:

We’ll have to forgive the fact that this means she’s (once again) able to do something nobody else can do by freely creating access to new lands within the mists. In this case, it’s one more bit of Mary Sue-ness that actually works to fill a gaping plot hole. Now we know where she’s been getting her resources (thus the Watchwork mining pick that went on sale a week before this update) and where she’s been building all her toys. In the mists.

In this case she is not doing something nobody else can do.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Into_the_Mists
There is also the portal into the mist for fractals.
There are also the portals into the mist for WvW but that is never explained.
The Mad King and Bloody Prince also have this ability as well. I am probably forgetting some.

Just some brief remarks:

Palador.2170:

Well, here’s your answer. She’s been accessing lands within the mists. We’ll have to forgive the fact that this means she’s (once again) able to do something nobody else can do by freely creating access to new lands within the mists. In this case, it’s one more bit of Mary Sue-ness that actually works to fill a gaping plot hole.

Well actually, there are pretty obvious, existing portals in Fort Mariner and at the Claw Island Portage that are used for the exact same purpose. I’d say using portal technology to reach the Mists is far from being “something nobody else can do.”

Question since I am no native English speaker: Since when and to what end is “Mary Sue” used as an adjective?

Darmikau.9413:

Because WvW, PvP, and PvE have absolutely nothing to do with each other. WvW and PvP only exist in the abstract canon as part of the mists.

Please talk to the Mist Warrior recruiter guy in LA to learn that you are wrong with respect to this point. I am not saying that the Mist War is introduced in a great way, or that we know much lore on the Mist War, but it is obviously a part of the world(s).

~MRA

MRA.4758:

Just some brief remarks:

Palador.2170:

Well, here’s your answer. She’s been accessing lands within the mists. We’ll have to forgive the fact that this means she’s (once again) able to do something nobody else can do by freely creating access to new lands within the mists. In this case, it’s one more bit of Mary Sue-ness that actually works to fill a gaping plot hole.

Well actually, there are pretty obvious, existing portals in Fort Mariner and at the Claw Island Portage that are used for the exact same purpose. I’d say using portal technology to reach the Mists is far from being “something nobody else can do.”

Question since I am no native English speaker: Since when and to what end is “Mary Sue” used as an adjective?

I guess I should have been more clear. IF she’s doing what I suggest she’s doing, then she’s opening more and bigger portals than anyone else has shown themselves able to do.

The term “Mary Sue” is in reference to a story someone wrote, set in the Star Trek fictional setting. Their character, Mary Sue, instantly proved to be better at everything than anyone else, and everyone loved her. To call a character a “Mary Sue” is to say that they are poorly written and overpowered beyond reason for the story, and beloved or respected by all the characters in the story without having earned it. A Mary Sue character is a bad thing to have in your story.

I wanna see Kiel Pimp Slap Dwayna in the Mists come Season 2 that is something id like to see, do to the Gods pretty much cough abandoning there Disciples to the Dragons with not even a 200 year check up

kind of a D—- Move

BobbyStein.2315:

DarksunG.9537:

But telling us we can’t have any opinion on what we’ve played over the past year is totally unfair. I’m not sure it even makes logical sense.

When did I ever say you can’t have an opinion? I’m just asking that people reserve judgment on the next release until they’ve played it and absorbed the story components.

But the post you responded to had nothing to do with what he thought about the next release. It was about “The problem with the Scarlet Story is that Anet thinks they’ve made this grand mystery that’s gotten the players talking.” That post had zero to do about the next release but was about how everything up to it hasn’t worked. It’s a valid point because it showed the posters current experiences & how so far all the “tie-ins” have been unsatisfying.

It’s also not about just having opinions, but labeling any non-favorable opinions as “flames”. Really? it’s impossible that Scarlet was not successful? Anyone who thinks that is just a flamer? It’s not like we hate you. You had a huge hand in all of GW1 lore. I looooooooooooooove GW1. You nailed it. Yeah, there were some story-telling limitations with the hardware & whatnot, but it was still the best MMO lore I’ve played. But i’m sorry, I think Scarlet has valid major issues. & its not that she was “a little too zany” or “we don’t quite know her motivations” she’s seriously broken.

BobbyStein.2315:

DarksunG.9537:

But telling us we can’t have any opinion on what we’ve played over the past year is totally unfair. I’m not sure it even makes logical sense.

When did I ever say you can’t have an opinion? I’m just asking that people reserve judgment on the next release until they’ve played it and absorbed the story components.

We All Know That Scarlet Is Being Controlled By Bob The Builder

It’s the only logical conclusion due to her being a Mary Sue type of character

DarksunG.9537:

BobbyStein.2315:

DarksunG.9537:

But telling us we can’t have any opinion on what we’ve played over the past year is totally unfair. I’m not sure it even makes logical sense.

When did I ever say you can’t have an opinion? I’m just asking that people reserve judgment on the next release until they’ve played it and absorbed the story components.

But the post you responded to had nothing to do with what he thought about the next release. It was about “The problem with the Scarlet Story is that Anet thinks they’ve made this grand mystery that’s gotten the players talking.” That post had zero to do about the next release but was about how everything up to it hasn’t worked. It’s a valid point because it showed the posters current experiences & how so far all the “tie-ins” have been unsatisfying.

I’ve enjoyed the LS so far. There’s room for me to theory craft on what made Scarlet evil, who the new enemy might be, etc. Sure it would have been better to explain how she made all these alliances possible, but I understand that there’s only so much story space for the writers to use. Too much story would dilute everything, since you sometimes create more questions than answers.

Just realize that most complaints so far are like reading a book only 3/4 of the way through, and assuming how the climax comes in the final few pages. I’m still holding onto hope that Scarlet becomes our ally, and is a permanent NPC going forward. I won’t know until a few months from now.

BobbyStein.2315:

Why don’t you hold your criticisms until you’ve played the content?

We don’t have to criticize any future content – and you are right, of course, that judging something we haven’t seen yet is not reasonable. We don’t have to criticize any future content, because there’s enough bad things that can be said about what we have already seen. Sorry – the Scarlet story up to this point is just very bad. Even if the future content will be completely brilliant, it’s not going to change that even one bit. You cannot change a bad writing into good with just adding something good at the end

BobbyStein.2315:

At this point you’re all speculating on how it fits together and what you’ll be doing in the next release.

By now only a small number of people even keep speculating – mostly because they are desperately trying to believe something good can come out of this. Or they just like speculating in general. There’s however a lot of people that simply stopped caring about the story. I know, that personally i just want to see as few of her as possible, because so far the writers have consistently proved, time and time again, that they are not only not up to the task, but that they are completely unaware why.

Hint: it’s not the lack of explanation, background and buildup behind Scarlet actions that makes the story bad. It’s the fact that the story crossed the line of willing suspension of disbelief long ago. And then kept going. That the main villain is presented in a way that just can’t let me care about what she does is just an icing on a cake.

It’s not somehing that can be fixed by a few new living story updates.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

I’m torn on that. On the one hand yes Scarlet has slowly become a better villain, and with the release of the latest patch we’ve seen the complaints die out as people have become really involved in speculation and have become excited again – which is great.

On the other hand the complaints did exist and people did not enjoy her for at least a couple of the living story releases, and to dismiss that simply because in the end it will all make sense is a mistake.

Even if you’re keeping a villains motives and actions secret, they should still be enjoyable to the players. Just because you know the ending and it’s good doesn’t mean that the fact that people complained isn’t problematic.

Think of it like a novel. You’ve read the entire thing and it’s great so you like it! And that’s great, and you’re telling everyone else it’s great! But they’re in the middle of the novel and so far haven’t found it all that compelling and are considering skipping to the end because honestly they’ve had enough and can’t be bothered riding the story through. Is that easy enough to understand? The middle of the novel should be just as compelling as the end – the beginning possibly more so.

Please keep in mind that the above is coming from someone who doesn’t really have a problem with Scarlet and has, from the beginning, been willing to wait it out and see where it goes. I’m just trying to point out that the outcry of a portion of the community definitely highlights areas that need to be worked on in the future.

On one hand, yes… you want all parts of a story to be amazing, and have everyone hooked at all times. However… that’s really not possible. Even the greatest storytellers of all time weren’t always able to pull that off. Some writers even argue that a slow-play of story elements is vital.

In addition, there are ALWAYS going to be people unwilling to give a story a chance if it doesn’t grab their attention and keep it. There will ALWAYS be people who say, “I don’t care anymore. Kitten it and kitten you.”

Personally, you tell the story you want (and are able) to tell; then let the pieces fall where they may. Trying to contort your tale to fit what everyone wants and expects is a recipe for failure.

Actually since EOTM is not meant to impact the score of wvw it’s a great place for the living story to have content in and helps to keep it out of the actual wvw maps. If that’s how it will end up working in the future then I’m all for it.

BobbyStein.2315:

DarksunG.9537:

But telling us we can’t have any opinion on what we’ve played over the past year is totally unfair. I’m not sure it even makes logical sense.

When did I ever say you can’t have an opinion? I’m just asking that people reserve judgment on the next release until they’ve played it and absorbed the story components.

Becka’s post wasn’t even in regards to the next Living Story update; the whole thing was about how the story from last January up until this point has been meaningless hoo-ha with no real meat that doesn’t really address any major questions. Each patch can basically be summed up with “Scarlet caused some mayhem for some unknown reason”.

Her next point is that all of the substance of the Living Story is going to be shoved (theoretically) into the last three patches and how that makes for a lame, essentially two chapter story. I understand that you’re going for a big reveal, but the plot has not been that gripping or suspenseful because you haven’t given us any real answers over the past year.

In other words, the pacing has been way off.

BobbyStein.2315:

DarksunG.9537:

But telling us we can’t have any opinion on what we’ve played over the past year is totally unfair. I’m not sure it even makes logical sense.

When did I ever say you can’t have an opinion? I’m just asking that people reserve judgment on the next release until they’ve played it and absorbed the story components.

We know enough about the effects biting down on cherry pits to know that we don’t want to eat a bunch of cookies with them baked in. We might take a careful nibble of the edge, and freely admit that the cookie itself is rich, soft, and buttery, but we’re already well aware that we won’t be heaping praise on the cookie as a whole.

Scarlet is the cherry pit. Or a handful of sugar free Gummy Bears.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

DarksunG.9537:

BobbyStein.2315:

DarksunG.9537:

But telling us we can’t have any opinion on what we’ve played over the past year is totally unfair. I’m not sure it even makes logical sense.

When did I ever say you can’t have an opinion? I’m just asking that people reserve judgment on the next release until they’ve played it and absorbed the story components.

But the post you responded to had nothing to do with what he thought about the next release. It was about “The problem with the Scarlet Story is that Anet thinks they’ve made this grand mystery that’s gotten the players talking.” That post had zero to do about the next release but was about how everything up to it hasn’t worked. It’s a valid point because it showed the posters current experiences & how so far all the “tie-ins” have been unsatisfying.

I’ve enjoyed the LS so far. There’s room for me to theory craft on what made Scarlet evil, who the new enemy might be, etc. Sure it would have been better to explain how she made all these alliances possible, but I understand that there’s only so much story space for the writers to use. Too much story would dilute everything, since you sometimes create more questions than answers.

Just realize that most complaints so far are like reading a book only 3/4 of the way through, and assuming how the climax comes in the final few pages. I’m still holding onto hope that Scarlet becomes our ally, and is a permanent NPC going forward. I won’t know until a few months from now.

Some people like JarJar & think he’s great, but many people have great reasons why he’s not. As far as i’ve seen, the player reasons for seeing her as broken make way more sense then her being a good character. Yes, we don’t need to know everything about a story, but for Scarlet it’s just an excuse because she fails to hard. Not knowing exactly how Shiro could generate the Jade Wind was ok, because of the restraint they showed on his abilities, his flavor & style fitting into the world & the intrigue of why he did what he did. for Scarlet’s this splatter of inconsistent & annoying personality, abilities, out of place design, lore bending, stupid dialog & cheap joker ripoffs on a scale that make the whole thing implausible & so far, unnecessary.

As for 3/4 of the way through? really? 95% has been silly, the last 5% is gonna fix that? No.. that’s not reality. If that’s true then I can’t see a valid reason to criticize any story telling at all. Everything is acceptable, there are no standards.

DarksunG.9537:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

DarksunG.9537:

BobbyStein.2315:

DarksunG.9537:

But telling us we can’t have any opinion on what we’ve played over the past year is totally unfair. I’m not sure it even makes logical sense.

When did I ever say you can’t have an opinion? I’m just asking that people reserve judgment on the next release until they’ve played it and absorbed the story components.

But the post you responded to had nothing to do with what he thought about the next release. It was about “The problem with the Scarlet Story is that Anet thinks they’ve made this grand mystery that’s gotten the players talking.” That post had zero to do about the next release but was about how everything up to it hasn’t worked. It’s a valid point because it showed the posters current experiences & how so far all the “tie-ins” have been unsatisfying.

I’ve enjoyed the LS so far. There’s room for me to theory craft on what made Scarlet evil, who the new enemy might be, etc. Sure it would have been better to explain how she made all these alliances possible, but I understand that there’s only so much story space for the writers to use. Too much story would dilute everything, since you sometimes create more questions than answers.

Just realize that most complaints so far are like reading a book only 3/4 of the way through, and assuming how the climax comes in the final few pages. I’m still holding onto hope that Scarlet becomes our ally, and is a permanent NPC going forward. I won’t know until a few months from now.

Some people like JarJar & think he’s great, but many people have great reasons why he’s not. As far as i’ve seen, the player reasons for seeing her as broken make way more sense then her being a good character. Yes, we don’t need to know everything about a story, but for Scarlet it’s just an excuse because she fails to hard. Not knowing exactly how Shiro could generate the Jade Wind was ok, because of the restraint they showed on his abilities, his flavor & style fitting into the world & the intrigue of why he did what he did. for Scarlet’s this splatter of inconsistent & annoying personality, abilities, out of place design, lore bending, stupid dialog & cheap joker ripoffs on a scale that make the whole thing implausible & so far, unnecessary.

As for 3/4 of the way through? really? 95% has been silly, the last 5% is gonna fix that? No.. that’s not reality. If that’s true then I can’t see a valid reason to criticize any story telling at all. Everything is acceptable, there are no standards.

im still waiting for the Giant Female looking robot that can instant Kill 200 players
or a giant flying UFO that for some reason appeared out of think air
oh and this is the best one of all how she got to the Mists without a working asuran Mist gate

like any of that would ever happen without some sort of Back story Right?

I personally like Scarlet in the sense that she serves a purpose to illuminate the Sylvari race in a way we’ve not been able to see it yet, and hopefully in the end it’ll help cement them more into the world of Tyria’. She’s basically proof that the Sylvari are most likely a part from being minions of a dragon or chained to either the nightmare or the dream. The problems with the character have more to do with the way she’s been presented, and lack of background granted to us at the beginning. “What Scarlet Saw” should’ve been a part of the living story IN game, not something completely separate outside of it. The little poem hints, all of these things should’ve been in the game. When it comes to story telling a character can only remain dynamic if the story progresses, and this is something that just hasn’t happened at a consistent enough rate. It’s sad because scarlet as a character has great potential, but this should’ve been more noticeable earlier on. Hopefully anet has picked up on this and will be able to fix it in future LS content not involving her.

I think the problem at this point is not the criticism of Scarlet but how it’s been presented. It’s a bunch of unnecessary negativity about something Anet has very clearly stated is ending in the next three updates. There you go, you know when it’s over, they aren’t going to make it end any quicker, get the final updates and make your final remarks there.

Quite frankly this update has been mostly fun but the predestination mentality that is all over this thread would make even Gordan Ramsay defensive about his cooking.

Tl;dr Everyone is of course entitled to their opinion but the way it’s presented will determine how it’s regarded. If you act like a kitten, people are going to get defensive. I have my problems with Scarlet as well but she’s not NEARLY as badly written as people have exaggerated. This isn’t saying there’s no bad writing with her, because there very clearly is.

BobbyStein.2315:

DarksunG.9537:

But telling us we can’t have any opinion on what we’ve played over the past year is totally unfair. I’m not sure it even makes logical sense.

When did I ever say you can’t have an opinion? I’m just asking that people reserve judgment on the next release until they’ve played it and absorbed the story components.

i think you are a bit testy because people are coming down on your villian hard. please take the time to be introspective about this. no one believes you can fix this story at the very end for 2 reasons. 1.) It is incredibly hard to do and violates several rules of good writing and 2.) your previous attempts at telling this storry have fallen flat and no one has faith in your ability moving forward. The best i am hoping for is you wrap the scarlet story up and kill her off and we can all forget about her like they did to jar jar.

gidorah.4960:

BobbyStein.2315:

DarksunG.9537:

But telling us we can’t have any opinion on what we’ve played over the past year is totally unfair. I’m not sure it even makes logical sense.

When did I ever say you can’t have an opinion? I’m just asking that people reserve judgment on the next release until they’ve played it and absorbed the story components.

i think you are a bit testy because people are coming down on your villian hard. please take the time to be introspective about this. no one believes you can fix this story at the very end for 2 reasons. 1.) It is incredibly hard to do and violates several rules of good writing and 2.) your previous attempts at telling this storry have fallen flat and no one has faith in your ability moving forward. The best i am hoping for is you wrap the scarlet story up and kill her off and we can all forget about her like they did to jar jar.

I need to know these rules that it violates and I don’t think you get to speak for everyone.

gidorah.4960:

BobbyStein.2315:

DarksunG.9537:

But telling us we can’t have any opinion on what we’ve played over the past year is totally unfair. I’m not sure it even makes logical sense.

When did I ever say you can’t have an opinion? I’m just asking that people reserve judgment on the next release until they’ve played it and absorbed the story components.

i think you are a bit testy because people are coming down on your villian hard. please take the time to be introspective about this. no one believes you can fix this story at the very end for 2 reasons. It is incredibly hard to do and violates several rules of good writing and your previous attempts at telling this storry have fallen flat and no one has faith in your ability moving forward. The best i am hoping for is you wrap the scarlet story up and kill her off and we can all forget about her like they did to jar jar.

well there are a few ways they could save the story one being she gets Hacked by Afro samurai being serious here 2 being they add a spoiler for Cantha release at the end of the season and 3 this is the most important Actually have 2 dragons fight each other over LA

Syryn.7591:

I have my problems with Scarlet as well but she’s not NEARLY as badly written as people have exaggerated. This isn’t saying there’s no bad writing with her, because there very clearly is.*

You’re entitled to your opinion as well, but I think she is as badly written at many people say. It would take Shakespeare to cobble together such disparate, conflicting & silly character pieces to make her work. & tbh, I don’t think the previously established GW universe supports such a wacky RP character. That may be why they’ve had to retcon, dismiss & alter so much established lore. To make way for something that doesn’t naturally fit.

Again, I disagree that the main problem is how she was presented but her actual character. “What Scarlet saw” was well written(the actual word crafting was really good), but ultimately made the character more unbelievable because it tried to made such a goofy, die-die-die, annoying, sodomize-lord-farren-jokes character have weight by going the way of the mary sue & making her “epic” at everything & “tragic” because she was “crazy”. it seems that a lot of people that like her, like her because she fits that RP wish-fulfilment for them. It’s a guilty pleasure but I don’t know it qualifies as high-art. & it stands out as such. It’s classic RP character mistake101. I fail to see how so many past characters that were influence by a GOD in the realms of Madness & Torment are less ridiculous in almost every way & yet Scarlet can still be viewed at “ok”.

Syryn.7591:

Actually since EOTM is not meant to impact the score of wvw it’s a great place for the living story to have content in and helps to keep it out of the actual wvw maps. If that’s how it will end up working in the future then I’m all for it.

Except that, from everything stated, Edge of the Mists will ONLY be an overflow and not accessible any other way, which limits servers with a smaller WvW presence. If there is no other way into EotM, then I will see it once, maybe, and never get to see it again. We’ll know for sure come the update, but since they have gone out of the way to state it will be accessible while waiting in queue, I have no real hope if it being accessible in any other way, so it should not be used for story content unless there is a permanent access to it for everyone that wants to. If it is, it will be another Living Story thing I may not do.

I have had very little to do with the updates since Dragon Bash, because there had been so little story, and after it has still felt like no real story to me. I’ve given it a try at times, but a couple lines of dialog and a small fight isn’t what I think of as content, and that’s all many of the updates seemed to be. Granted, there were a number of updates I did not see and there is even some of the permanent content I haven’t done, like Aetherpath of TA. The best thing I’ve seen is Marionette and it is over the top. Besides the fact it can be very frustrating since a couple people are able to completely ruin something that over 100 people are working kitten. I have another issue with it, but my connection is at fault, not GW2.

I’m waiting to see what we are given, but sadly, I have no hope.

Edge of the Mists can be entered at any time. It’s just the only WvW map that creates overflows when it’s full.

BobbyStein.2315:

DarksunG.9537:

But telling us we can’t have any opinion on what we’ve played over the past year is totally unfair. I’m not sure it even makes logical sense.

When did I ever say you can’t have an opinion? I’m just asking that people reserve judgment on the next release, until they’ve played it and absorbed the story components.

1)Because the criticism “I’m bored, this story is taking way too long” has nothing to do with what will come next, and that’s what the poster was talking about. It literally doesn’t matter if the conclusion is better then Shakespeare, it doesn’t change the experience we had throughout the year of frustration and confusion. The criticism is about how the story telling was and is RIGHT NOW. And if you look, the person you responded too before says “I hope the next 2 released are better” – ie, he has perfectly justified skepticism but is suspending judgment when it is appropriate to do so.

2) Because almost without exception, trying to shoehorn in PVE living world stuff in to wvw has caused conflict. Again given the history, its fair to skeptical. It’s sort of like if your little brother was making you a PB&J and he was insisting on putting pickles into it for the third time. You probably wouldn’t just trust him when he said “see how it is this time.”

Syryn.7591:

gidorah.4960:

BobbyStein.2315:

DarksunG.9537:

But telling us we can’t have any opinion on what we’ve played over the past year is totally unfair. I’m not sure it even makes logical sense.

When did I ever say you can’t have an opinion? I’m just asking that people reserve judgment on the next release until they’ve played it and absorbed the story components.

i think you are a bit testy because people are coming down on your villian hard. please take the time to be introspective about this. no one believes you can fix this story at the very end for 2 reasons. 1.) It is incredibly hard to do and violates several rules of good writing and 2.) your previous attempts at telling this story have fallen flat and no one has faith in your ability moving forward. The best i am hoping for is you wrap the scarlet story up and kill her off and we can all forget about her like they did to jar jar.

I need to know these rules that it violates and I don’t think you get to speak for everyone.

i don’t speak for everyone but don’t fool yourself into thinking only a vocal minority on the forums doesn’t like scarlet or the story so far just ask in map chat its about 20-1 for dislikes to likes feel free to ask yourself don’t take my word for it. well the first rule i can think of he violated is not to put backstory and character development at the end of the story because this leads to one of the mortal sins of storytelling your audience stops caring. This is why pacing is so important and why even bobby has acknowledged the failure. He just still thinks he can fix it but most reasonable people would disagree and see its too late and hope we can move forward with the lessons learned after the content they made months ago is put out and without scarlet around to remind everyone of the poor job they did at the beginning.

rfdarko.4639:

BobbyStein.2315:

DarksunG.9537:

But telling us we can’t have any opinion on what we’ve played over the past year is totally unfair. I’m not sure it even makes logical sense.

When did I ever say you can’t have an opinion? I’m just asking that people reserve judgment on the next release, until they’ve played it and absorbed the story components.

1)Because the criticism “I’m bored, this story is taking way too long” has nothing to do with what will come next, and that’s what the poster was talking about. It literally doesn’t matter if the conclusion is better then Shakespeare, it doesn’t change the experience we had throughout the year of frustration and confusion. The criticism is about how the story telling was and is RIGHT NOW. And if you look, the person you responded too before says “I hope the next 2 released are better” – ie, he has perfectly justified skepticism but is suspending judgment when it is appropriate to do so.

2) Because almost without exception, trying to shoehorn in PVE living world stuff in to wvw has caused conflict. Again given the history, its fair to skeptical. It’s sort of like if your little brother was making you a PB&J and he was insisting on putting pickles into it for the third time. You probably wouldn’t just trust him when he said “see how it is this time.”

While I agree with your point about the OP, I think Bobby also stated in a previous post that he really doesn’t have anything to do with how it gets implemented — i.e. he didn’t tell anyone that this has to go into the EOTM map-- Heck, I would venture a guess that when Bobby and the team wrote this stuff out, they were given a very short time frame to work with because the LS wasn’t even a thing that long ago and it doesn’t sound like the EOTM map was either.

This speaks to a broader problem of iterative design. It has its pluses, but this type of thing is definitely a big minus.

I am with you Bobby on withholding opinion on future stuff, but I also have an opinion on one thing: I think you guys should stick to comedy. You do it VERY well. The dramatic stuff though gets very melodramatic in a soap opera type of way very quickly and that has been a theme since GW1.

I am still very much looking forward to how all of this plays out though. The last year was pretty bad though, but I don’t blame the writers. I am sure they were more frustrated at whoever decided that the LS had to be the “It” thing and “It” had to happen as quickly as it did. It was implemented very hastily IMO, and I am sure that affected everyone, including the writers. Hopefully, the newer releases go more cohesively and the writers have more time to make things silly and fun all at the same time. Let’s try and steer clear of the drama though please.

Becka Williams.4978:

Edge of the Mists can be entered at any time. It’s just the only WvW map that creates overflows when it’s full.

If so that is great, but they have worded it as such that it is implied it will only be accessible while in queue and that has been a big concern for many. Ordinarily I’d say the concern is unfounded. It’s just that the only mention of Edge of the Mists each time is that while in queue, it would be accessible. Of course, assuming does always get one in trouble.

As for the living story content, it can be hoped that they noticed what did not work, and do not repeat the same mistakes. What I and many want, is a better story. For all it’s problems, GW1 did have a pretty good story. I do not expect half that level of work on a regular content update, but I expected more than what has been seen here.

I do understand how much work has been put into the updates, it’s just that in a way, most of their hard work has been wasted, and that is sad.

Having said all that, we wait and see what the updates bring.

BobbyStein.2315:

DarksunG.9537:

But telling us we can’t have any opinion on what we’ve played over the past year is totally unfair. I’m not sure it even makes logical sense.

When did I ever say you can’t have an opinion? I’m just asking that people reserve judgment on the next release until they’ve played it and absorbed the story components.

Respectfully . . .

Get out now before they provoke anything more out of you. You’ve said your piece about reserving judgement of the next release, but by now there’s enough people who were unhappy with the preceding material . . . they just aren’t pleased with the whole.

I am personally looking forward to what comes, not because I think it will be the most awesomest thing ever but because it intrigues me how things tie together and what the impact left behind will be. Living Story Season 1 was not as successful as it could have been on several fronts, but if it finishes strong it might just leave hope the next run will be better.

If I can use the television series metaphor? Earn your second season with the final few episodes. If Fringe could do it, so can you guys

Lunacy Solacio.6514:

Becka Williams.4978:

Edge of the Mists can be entered at any time. It’s just the only WvW map that creates overflows when it’s full.

If so that is great, but they have worded it as such that it is implied it will only be accessible while in queue and that has been a big concern for many. Ordinarily I’d say the concern is unfounded. It’s just that the only mention of Edge of the Mists each time is that while in queue, it would be accessible. Of course, assuming does always get one in trouble.

As for the living story content, it can be hoped that they noticed what did not work, and do not repeat the same mistakes. What I and many want, is a better story. For all it’s problems, GW1 did have a pretty good story. I do not expect half that level of work on a regular content update, but I expected more than what has been seen here.

I do understand how much work has been put into the updates, it’s just that in a way, most of their hard work has been wasted, and that is sad.

Having said all that, we wait and see what the updates bring.

massivly has an interview with Devon, it has a screen shot that shoe you can join even if your server has no queue

BobbyStein.2315:

When did I ever say you can’t have an opinion? I’m just asking that people reserve judgment on the next release until they’ve played it and absorbed the story components.

I won’t be playing it, and neither will a lot of people.

There is no physical limitation to WvWers getting whatever they want in PvE worlds or participating in PvE activity.

There -is- a physical limitation to PvE players getting whatever they want in WvW worlds and participating in WvW activity.

That limitation is PKs (player-killers). Some of us cannot, will not or just don’t want to participate in PK activity, causing failure and anger for others for our own amusement.

Palador.2170:

snip

Thanks for the clarification.

~MRA

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

BobbyStein.2315:

DarksunG.9537:

But telling us we can’t have any opinion on what we’ve played over the past year is totally unfair. I’m not sure it even makes logical sense.

When did I ever say you can’t have an opinion? I’m just asking that people reserve judgment on the next release until they’ve played it and absorbed the story components.

If I can use the television series metaphor? Earn your second season with the final few episodes. If Fringe could do it, so can you guys

On the other hand, Stargate: Universe sucked for most of season 1, with only the final episodes starting to feel finally Stargate-ish (although I still cringe every time I see Daniel Jackson playing spygame alone just for a cameo). However, the disappointment was so great with season 1 that while season 2 was mindbogglingly epic and really felt like a true descendant of Stargate and SG-1 – or even better – they had to shut down production because no one was watching it.

Actually, the best would be if no Season 2 LS would be made until they really know how to write compelling stories worthy of being called GW with good pacing, no Mary Sues (Kasmeer and Marjory are starting to feel like they’ve been infected by Scarlet’s “perfection,” too), and no comedy relief of the ridiculous level they are pumping it into the game.

Until then: Expansions. Expansions. Expansions. Continuing the PS after consulting the writing team of SW:ToR/BioWare and resorting to phasing instead of this so-called “LW” nonsense.

DarksunG.9537:

Syryn.7591:

I have my problems with Scarlet as well but she’s not NEARLY as badly written as people have exaggerated. This isn’t saying there’s no bad writing with her, because there very clearly is.*

You’re entitled to your opinion as well, but I think she is as badly written at many people say. It would take Shakespeare to cobble together such disparate, conflicting & silly character pieces to make her work. & tbh, I don’t think the previously established GW universe supports such a wacky RP character. That may be why they’ve had to retcon, dismiss & alter so much established lore. To make way for something that doesn’t naturally fit.

Again, I disagree that the main problem is how she was presented but her actual character. “What Scarlet saw” was well written(the actual word crafting was really good), but ultimately made the character more unbelievable because it tried to made such a goofy, die-die-die, annoying, sodomize-lord-farren-jokes character have weight by going the way of the mary sue & making her “epic” at everything & “tragic” because she was “crazy”. it seems that a lot of people that like her, like her because she fits that RP wish-fulfilment for them. It’s a guilty pleasure but I don’t know it qualifies as high-art. & it stands out as such. It’s classic RP character mistake101. I fail to see how so many past characters that were influence by a GOD in the realms of Madness & Torment are less ridiculous in almost every way & yet Scarlet can still be viewed at “ok”.

Again with this Mary Sue term, it’s becoming more and more apparent that people obviously don’t understand what it means. Scarlet is NOT a Mary Sue by any means of the word. Look it up, it doesn’t mean what you think it means. A Mary Sue is a character which is infallible and a ‘do-gooder’ NOT a psychologically cracked, partial homicidal maniac. Yes, Scarlet “excells” in many fields but she had to LEARN them as expressed many times throughout the living story, a Mary Sue is naturally gifted with talents well beyond what her age would allow, and without any formal training. Also a Mary Sue is a character that is associated with horrifically written romantic undertones to normally a character well beyond her age. These are all things that Scarlet does NOT fall under the category of. So if you’re going to give reasons for Scarlet being a bad character, please realize that that term is not one that you can use correctly in context to her.

And as for the lore being retconned or dismissed, I don’t really see anything that exemplifies that except for maybe the Krait. And even there it’s mentioned that she held something over them or tricked them to get them to agree to an alliance to begin with.

Also you’re making some rather large assumptions about Scarlet’s madness by comparing her to every other character that is manipulated in some way by a GOD from the realms of torment, considering you have no idea if that’s the case with her or not. Also nowhere in the LS has it in ANYWAY tried to claim that Scarlet is a tragic character due to her insanity, if you’re annoyed at people inserting themselves into Scarlet on the forums and making up excuses for her that’s one thing but to claim that the LS it self backs those claims is just not accurate. We barely know enough about her to make her a sympathetic character in anyway let alone “tragic.” So, I don’t really know where you’re pulling that from.

gidorah.4960:

Syryn.7591:

gidorah.4960:

BobbyStein.2315:

DarksunG.9537:

But telling us we can’t have any opinion on what we’ve played over the past year is totally unfair. I’m not sure it even makes logical sense.

When did I ever say you can’t have an opinion? I’m just asking that people reserve judgment on the next release until they’ve played it and absorbed the story components.

i think you are a bit testy because people are coming down on your villian hard. please take the time to be introspective about this. no one believes you can fix this story at the very end for 2 reasons. 1.) It is incredibly hard to do and violates several rules of good writing and 2.) your previous attempts at telling this story have fallen flat and no one has faith in your ability moving forward. The best i am hoping for is you wrap the scarlet story up and kill her off and we can all forget about her like they did to jar jar.

I need to know these rules that it violates and I don’t think you get to speak for everyone.

i don’t speak for everyone but don’t fool yourself into thinking only a vocal minority on the forums doesn’t like scarlet or the story so far just ask in map chat its about 20-1 for dislikes to likes feel free to ask yourself don’t take my word for it. well the first rule i can think of he violated is not to put backstory and character development at the end of the story because this leads to one of the mortal sins of storytelling your audience stops caring. This is why pacing is so important and why even bobby has acknowledged the failure. He just still thinks he can fix it but most reasonable people would disagree and see its too late and hope we can move forward with the lessons learned after the content they made months ago is put out and without scarlet around to remind everyone of the poor job they did at the beginning.

That’ s not a rule, that’s your opinion on how you think writing should be done. Facts are these – there are no divinely given literary rules for writing. That’s why so many genres exist and why so many books break even the standards of those genres. And actually in stark contradiction to what you are now claiming is a mortal sin to storytelling would be the art of withholding information from the readers for purpose of mystery/foreboding/paranoia etc – often used in Mystery, Drama, Thriller, Horror, Science Fiction, Fantasy – well just about any kind of writing genre there is. Now, that being said – yes, there is tons of bad writing in reference to Scarlet and I agree 100% that there should’ve been better pacing and more insight into her character prior to the last few updates of the LS that is centered around her.

But if there’s one thing i’ve learned from reading a book, bad ones can be salvaged a tad with a good ending. (Again we’ll see, i’m completely nonchalant on whether it’ll go one way or the other.)

Syryn.7591:

But if there’s one thing i’ve learned from reading a book, bad ones can be salvaged a tad with a good ending. (Again we’ll see, i’m completely nonchalant on whether it’ll go one way or the other.)

Really? I have yet to see a book lite that. The best that can be done if the book is bad is hope that the ending will elevate it to a mediocre status. It will never make it good, however.
I wouldn’t call that salvaging.

Thalador.4218:

Actually, the best would be if no Season 2 LS would be made until they really know how to write compelling stories worthy of being called GW with good pacing, no Mary Sues (Kasmeer and Marjory are starting to feel like they’ve been infected by Scarlet’s “perfection,” too), and no comedy relief of the ridiculous level they are pumping it into the game.

Kasmeer and Marjory, “perfect”? We’re looking at the same characters, right, who don’t really do much other than investigate and let our characters do the heavy lifting while collecting information? Kasmeer who basically is an orphan whose backstory could almost be out of books I had to read in English Lit? Marjory who is Samantha Spade as a necromancer who talks to dead people? (But if she turns into Anita Blake I’m out)

Logan is more perfect than these two because he’s only barely been called on his crap. Somehow he’s still employed as Captain of the Seraph when he should be a knight-errant.

Continuing the PS after consulting the writing team of SW:ToR/BioWare

No.

Dear gods above and demons below, do not do this thing.

Astralporing.1957:

Syryn.7591:

But if there’s one thing i’ve learned from reading a book, bad ones can be salvaged a tad with a good ending. (Again we’ll see, i’m completely nonchalant on whether it’ll go one way or the other.)

Really? I have yet to see a book lite that. The best that can be done if the book is bad is hope that the ending will elevate it to a mediocre status. It will never make it good, however.
I wouldn’t call that salvaging.

Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire. Totally salvaged by the ending, for being not that great a book which plodded on for about 25% too long.

Of course, more common is a great book ruined by a bad ending. Like A Storm of Swords.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Continuing the PS after consulting the writing team of SW:ToR/BioWare

No.

Dear gods above and demons below, do not do this thing.

… If you want the story to remain in its crippled, cancerous form, then sure: don’t do it.

I’m afraid I can’t help when you’re blinded by your preconceptions you’d most likely heard about ToR. I’d really advise you to play the game purely for the story – while switching off your brain when doing the boring stuff of leveling and co. – to see what I mean and realize how kitten mistaken you are, Trueflight… but I know from our previous exchanges (and based on the dialogues between you and others in the lore forum I monitored) that it’s impossible to change your views when you stick to your stuffy prejudices as if your life depended on it.

Oh, I personally HAVE played ToR, and no, I would not want that story-team doing the Personal Story of GW2.

For as long as you’re on their payroll, I’ll take everything you say with at least a moon-sized grain of salt.

There must be some issues with my bank-account then, because I have never seen any of those monies you claim I keep getting from ArenaNet.

Thalador.4218:

I’d really advise you to play the game purely for the story – while switching off your brain when doing the boring stuff of leveling and co. – to see what I mean and realize how kitten mistaken you are, Trueflight… but I know from our previous exchanges (and based on the dialogues between you and others in the lore forum I monitored) that it’s impossible to change your views when you stick to your stuffy prejudices as if your life depended on it.

You misunderstand me. I don’t have anything against The Old Republic or their story – I’ve heard it’s actually rather good compared to Bethesda’s outings. But . . .

How do I put this in a way you won’t think I’m biased against Bioware . . .

. . . I don’t want the Living Story to conform to some other company’s ideal of what a story should be delivered like. Bioware has a very distinct style for their stories and how it develops. Lots of people want to ape them, copy them and figure out how to make their stuff pop by using similar structure.

This does not make you better at writing game story flow. It just makes you better at copying something established.

What I’d rather they do is pick up some work on dissecting the monomyth idea, some novella/short form writing courses, some interpretive work rather than simply copying what’s hot. I’d rather we use Jeff Grubb for something other than putting down the canvas and getting the lore onto it – he’s a published author who’s done some fine work (even if I’m not strictly a fan). Get him to try teaching people how things can be shaped or why.

I don’t want ArenaNet to copy Bioware’s success by copying Bioware. I want ArenaNet to become successful for being a better ArenaNet.

I’ve been reading through the posts here and I think that many people are missing something key here. The EotM update is designed as a way to tie WvW and PvE even closer together then they have been in the past. Anet has made it pretty clear that their desire is to see symmetry between all three game modes. Some ways they are making that happen are by making PvP rewards gold based instead of glory, carrying over skins from PvE into PvP, and adding more PvE elements to WvW (LS in EotM). This next update achieves that goal and fixes the issue of the WvW gueue problem as a bonus.

On the issue of Scarlet, she is undoubtedly annoying and most people find her worthless as a character. I think the biggest cause of this is the fact that players have no real vested interest in what she is doing other then how it effects their achievements or loot. With so much to do in GW2 its impossible to make new content overly expansive because you will run the risk of leaving players in the dust and therefore it has taken many many months just to find out the little we know about Scarlet. I think the reason the developers are convinced Scarlet will be a “good villain” in the end for us is because it will take the entire Season 1 of content for us to understand what has been happening.

If I may add my theory for what happens next. I think Scarlet’s motivations for everything will prove to have in the end been for the best of Tyria. Perhaps the next dragon to be revealed will need a new breed of hero to defeat and Scarlet will have laid the foundation for that with her combination experiments.

Syryn.7591:

Again with this Mary Sue term, it’s becoming more and more apparent that people obviously don’t understand what it means. Scarlet is NOT a Mary Sue by any means of the word. Look it up, it doesn’t mean what you think it means. A Mary Sue is a character which is infallible and a ‘do-gooder’ NOT a psychologically cracked, partial homicidal maniac. Yes, Scarlet “excells” in many fields but she had to LEARN them as expressed many times throughout the living story, a Mary Sue is naturally gifted with talents well beyond what her age would allow, and without any formal training. Also a Mary Sue is a character that is associated with horrifically written romantic undertones to normally a character well beyond her age. These are all things that Scarlet does NOT fall under the category of. So if you’re going to give reasons for Scarlet being a bad character, please realize that that term is not one that you can use correctly in context to her.

You’re right. She’s not a Mary Sue.

The correct term is Villain Sue, which is the evil version of a Mary Sue. Specifically, she’s the second kind, which is somewhat crossed with the God-Mode Sue.

Just to be accurate.

Quite interesting that you link to something that proves quite fast that Scarlet would not be classified as such.

lordkrall.7241:

Quite interesting that you link to something that proves quite fast that Scarlet would not be classified as such.

The other common overlap is the God-Mode Sue, with a ridiculous power level, forcing the heroes to hold the Idiot Ball, and/or requiring Deus ex Machina in order for the protagonists to stand a chance of defeating them. This is the type that generally shows up in canon. It can overlap with other types, such as Jerk Sue, as well, but it never overlaps with Purity Sue (although they might become one after the Heel-Face Turn, once the plot forgets everything evil about them).

Sounds like Scarlet to me. The main difference is that she’s making the other villains hold the idiot ball as well. (Seriously, she must mass produce those things.)

Palador.2170:

Sounds like Scarlet to me. The main difference is that she’s making the other villains hold the idiot ball as well. (Seriously, she must mass produce those things.)

The asura mass-manufacture them. How else do they hold such a monopoly on fast travel now?

Jomo.3914:

I’ve been reading through the posts here and I think that many people are missing something key here. The EotM update is designed as a way to tie WvW and PvE even closer together then they have been in the past. Anet has made it pretty clear that their desire is to see symmetry between all three game modes. Some ways they are making that happen are by making PvP rewards gold based instead of glory, carrying over skins from PvE into PvP, and adding more PvE elements to WvW (LS in EotM). This next update achieves that goal and fixes the issue of the WvW gueue problem as a bonus.

On the issue of Scarlet, she is undoubtedly annoying and most people find her worthless as a character. I think the biggest cause of this is the fact that players have no real vested interest in what she is doing other then how it effects their achievements or loot. With so much to do in GW2 its impossible to make new content overly expansive because you will run the risk of leaving players in the dust and therefore it has taken many many months just to find out the little we know about Scarlet. I think the reason the developers are convinced Scarlet will be a “good villain” in the end for us is because it will take the entire Season 1 of content for us to understand what has been happening.

If I may add my theory for what happens next. I think Scarlet’s motivations for everything will prove to have in the end been for the best of Tyria. Perhaps the next dragon to be revealed will need a new breed of hero to defeat and Scarlet will have laid the foundation for that with her combination experiments.

I think if they make Scarlet the hero, people will quit in disgust. You cannot make someone that a lot of people hate into the hero. It just doesn’t work.