Guild Wars 2

laharl.8435:

morrolan.9608:

laharl.8435:

Lord Kuru.3685:

You can remove QoL features from the game. You can add QoL features to the game behind a paywall.

But when you take what’s currently a free QoL feature and put it behind a paywall, that’s really bad. And judging from Anet’s response (i.e., none) this is a sign of things to come.

And looking at how Anet creeps these out slowly, here’s likely what’s next:

• Any new map will have a paywall on its WPs. (White knights: “hey, you can just walk so it’s ok, right? Plus, I walk everywhere anyway, who needs WPs?”) Then:
• All WPs will be paywalled. (White knights: “hey, you can just walk so it’s ok, right? Plus, I walk everywhere anyway, who needs WPs?”)

What did they take that was free and put behind a pay wall? Oh, nothing… lol

You’re not actually addressing the argument. As was said earlier in the thread almost every single poster criticising it is putting forth reasoned arguments as to why whereas those who don’t object to it offer nothing.

PookieDaWombat.6209:

NOTHING IS BEHIND A PAYWALL. Was that clear enough for you now? Nothing.

Sure something has been, and its been stated multiple times, convenience.

It’s a single loading screen, are you kidding…

The gem store is supposed to be about convenience. How is this concept so difficult to understand? Look at the other gem store items, all quality of life items, items of convenience. This is how non-p2w games runs a cash shop.

You’re missing the point. We already had convenience, they removed it and are now charging us to get it back.

Aidenwolf.5964:

laharl.8435:

morrolan.9608:

laharl.8435:

Lord Kuru.3685:

You can remove QoL features from the game. You can add QoL features to the game behind a paywall.

But when you take what’s currently a free QoL feature and put it behind a paywall, that’s really bad. And judging from Anet’s response (i.e., none) this is a sign of things to come.

And looking at how Anet creeps these out slowly, here’s likely what’s next:

• Any new map will have a paywall on its WPs. (White knights: “hey, you can just walk so it’s ok, right? Plus, I walk everywhere anyway, who needs WPs?”) Then:
• All WPs will be paywalled. (White knights: “hey, you can just walk so it’s ok, right? Plus, I walk everywhere anyway, who needs WPs?”)

What did they take that was free and put behind a pay wall? Oh, nothing… lol

You’re not actually addressing the argument. As was said earlier in the thread almost every single poster criticising it is putting forth reasoned arguments as to why whereas those who don’t object to it offer nothing.

PookieDaWombat.6209:

NOTHING IS BEHIND A PAYWALL. Was that clear enough for you now? Nothing.

Sure something has been, and its been stated multiple times, convenience.

It’s a single loading screen, are you kidding…

The gem store is supposed to be about convenience. How is this concept so difficult to understand? Look at the other gem store items, all quality of life items, items of convenience. This is how non-p2w games runs a cash shop.

You’re missing the point. We already had convenience, they removed it and are now charging us to get it back.

You’re missing the point. It’s one single waypoint hahahahahahaha!!!!!!!

Ayrilana.1396:

mrstealth.6701:

For those that have thrown in the idea of the “slippery slope”, mind the fact that this is actually the 2nd step, so we’re already on the “slope”. The Royal Terrace was the test to see if this type of pass would sell.

Now we’re at the next step down the line, of actually removing something and replacing it with a pay service.

Exactly what did they remove that couldn’t already be gotten with the royal terrace pass? I see the captains airship has additional services which was vehemently requested by players. All of these additional services are present in Gendarran.

Poor choice of question. They didn’t remove anything in order to provide the royal terrace pass. It was a bonus convenience item. You could achieve the same thing for free in-game by visiting Lion’s Arch.

It should be a pretty basic mtx tenet that you don’t create inconvenience in your game in order to sell convenience in your mtx store – at least, if you want to adhere to decent business ethics. Selling convenience items is fine, but not if you’re taking stuff out of the game in order to make it a more attractive purchase.

Aidenwolf.5964:

You’re missing the point. We already had convenience, they removed it and are now charging us to get it back.

You’re making the mistake between your wants and needs. Because you have a choice of where you want to go for Crafting, or MFing, or vendoring, you don’t need to go to a certain place. You want to.

A quicker, cheaper alternative is to visit your main server’s Borderland in WvW. It has nearly everything LA has to offer. If you own your Garrison, then you have access to Zomorro’s forging. Or, visit EotM. Simply press “B” to gain access.

laharl.8435:

Aidenwolf.5964:

laharl.8435:

morrolan.9608:

laharl.8435:

Lord Kuru.3685:

You can remove QoL features from the game. You can add QoL features to the game behind a paywall.

But when you take what’s currently a free QoL feature and put it behind a paywall, that’s really bad. And judging from Anet’s response (i.e., none) this is a sign of things to come.

And looking at how Anet creeps these out slowly, here’s likely what’s next:

• Any new map will have a paywall on its WPs. (White knights: “hey, you can just walk so it’s ok, right? Plus, I walk everywhere anyway, who needs WPs?”) Then:
• All WPs will be paywalled. (White knights: “hey, you can just walk so it’s ok, right? Plus, I walk everywhere anyway, who needs WPs?”)

What did they take that was free and put behind a pay wall? Oh, nothing… lol

You’re not actually addressing the argument. As was said earlier in the thread almost every single poster criticising it is putting forth reasoned arguments as to why whereas those who don’t object to it offer nothing.

PookieDaWombat.6209:

NOTHING IS BEHIND A PAYWALL. Was that clear enough for you now? Nothing.

Sure something has been, and its been stated multiple times, convenience.

It’s a single loading screen, are you kidding…

The gem store is supposed to be about convenience. How is this concept so difficult to understand? Look at the other gem store items, all quality of life items, items of convenience. This is how non-p2w games runs a cash shop.

You’re missing the point. We already had convenience, they removed it and are now charging us to get it back.

You’re missing the point. It’s one single waypoint hahahahahahaha!!!!!!!

That they added in order to sell us a replacement for what they took.

The idea of “convenience” is that it costs, but honestly the way it works now is likely only temporary and not at all inconvenient anyway.

The problem isn’t the item itself, it’s the way it’s marketed. The event doesn’t do a good job at explaining where the old services (and what) are located if one is looking for them, particularly because most people are prone to skipping that nonsense having been trained that well, most of it’s nonsense.

The item uses underhanded marketing tactics to manipulate people into buying an item they don’t actually need by confusing them with a lack of details coupled with the destruction of a major, capital city.

For those who don’t know of Vigil’s Keep it’s simple ignorance and nothing more, but there are far more people who aren’t aware of this mishap than those who are, simply because the ignorant far outweigh the knowledgeable in virtually all walks of life.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Aidenwolf.5964:

You’re missing the point. We already had convenience, they removed it and are now charging us to get it back.

You’re making the mistake between your wants and needs. Because you have a choice of where you want to go for Crafting, or MFing, or vendoring, you don’t need to go to a certain place. You want to.

A quicker, cheaper alternative is to visit your main server’s Borderland in WvW. It has nearly everything LA has to offer. If you own your Garrison, then you have access to Zomorro’s forging. Or, visit EotM. Simply press “B” to gain access.

Great example, however, our BL is currently not in our control, we own none of it on patch days. CD is a pve server.

Aidenwolf.5964:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Aidenwolf.5964:

You’re missing the point. We already had convenience, they removed it and are now charging us to get it back.

You’re making the mistake between your wants and needs. Because you have a choice of where you want to go for Crafting, or MFing, or vendoring, you don’t need to go to a certain place. You want to.

A quicker, cheaper alternative is to visit your main server’s Borderland in WvW. It has nearly everything LA has to offer. If you own your Garrison, then you have access to Zomorro’s forging. Or, visit EotM. Simply press “B” to gain access.

Great example, however, our BL is currently not in our control, we own none of it on patch days. CD is a pve server.

You cannot lose the citadel, that’s where all craftings are, although no MF

Aidenwolf.5964:

laharl.8435:

Aidenwolf.5964:

laharl.8435:

morrolan.9608:

laharl.8435:

Lord Kuru.3685:

You can remove QoL features from the game. You can add QoL features to the game behind a paywall.

But when you take what’s currently a free QoL feature and put it behind a paywall, that’s really bad. And judging from Anet’s response (i.e., none) this is a sign of things to come.

And looking at how Anet creeps these out slowly, here’s likely what’s next:

• Any new map will have a paywall on its WPs. (White knights: “hey, you can just walk so it’s ok, right? Plus, I walk everywhere anyway, who needs WPs?”) Then:
• All WPs will be paywalled. (White knights: “hey, you can just walk so it’s ok, right? Plus, I walk everywhere anyway, who needs WPs?”)

What did they take that was free and put behind a pay wall? Oh, nothing… lol

You’re not actually addressing the argument. As was said earlier in the thread almost every single poster criticising it is putting forth reasoned arguments as to why whereas those who don’t object to it offer nothing.

PookieDaWombat.6209:

NOTHING IS BEHIND A PAYWALL. Was that clear enough for you now? Nothing.

Sure something has been, and its been stated multiple times, convenience.

It’s a single loading screen, are you kidding…

The gem store is supposed to be about convenience. How is this concept so difficult to understand? Look at the other gem store items, all quality of life items, items of convenience. This is how non-p2w games runs a cash shop.

You’re missing the point. We already had convenience, they removed it and are now charging us to get it back.

You’re missing the point. It’s one single waypoint hahahahahahaha!!!!!!!

That they added in order to sell us a replacement for what they took.

No, the replacement(s) have already been there since launch….omg lol

Faowri.4159:

Ayrilana.1396:

mrstealth.6701:

For those that have thrown in the idea of the “slippery slope”, mind the fact that this is actually the 2nd step, so we’re already on the “slope”. The Royal Terrace was the test to see if this type of pass would sell.

Now we’re at the next step down the line, of actually removing something and replacing it with a pay service.

Exactly what did they remove that couldn’t already be gotten with the royal terrace pass? I see the captains airship has additional services which was vehemently requested by players. All of these additional services are present in Gendarran.

Poor choice of question. They didn’t remove anything in order to provide the royal terrace pass. It was a bonus convenience item. You could achieve the same thing for free in-game by visiting Lion’s Arch.

It should be a pretty basic mtx tenet that you don’t create inconvenience in your game in order to sell convenience in your mtx store – at least, if you want to adhere to decent business ethics. Selling convenience items is fine, but not if you’re taking stuff out of the game in order to make it a more attractive purchase.

Actually no, it’s not a poor choice of question. Everything that is not in Gendarran could be gotten from the Royal Terrace. You also completely missed that I was specifically addressing the player’s quote so you can easily take what I said out of context.

Ayrilana.1396:

Faowri.4159:

Ayrilana.1396:

mrstealth.6701:

For those that have thrown in the idea of the “slippery slope”, mind the fact that this is actually the 2nd step, so we’re already on the “slope”. The Royal Terrace was the test to see if this type of pass would sell.

Now we’re at the next step down the line, of actually removing something and replacing it with a pay service.

Exactly what did they remove that couldn’t already be gotten with the royal terrace pass? I see the captains airship has additional services which was vehemently requested by players. All of these additional services are present in Gendarran.

Poor choice of question. They didn’t remove anything in order to provide the royal terrace pass. It was a bonus convenience item. You could achieve the same thing for free in-game by visiting Lion’s Arch.

It should be a pretty basic mtx tenet that you don’t create inconvenience in your game in order to sell convenience in your mtx store – at least, if you want to adhere to decent business ethics. Selling convenience items is fine, but not if you’re taking stuff out of the game in order to make it a more attractive purchase.

Actually no, it’s not a poor choice of question. Everything that is not in Gendarran could be gotten from the Royal Terrace. You also completely missed that I was specifically addressing the player’s quote so you can easily take what I said out of context.

The royal terrace is another mtx service. I’m not sure what your point is or why you think my reply was out of context.

Faowri.4159:

Ayrilana.1396:

Faowri.4159:

Ayrilana.1396:

mrstealth.6701:

For those that have thrown in the idea of the “slippery slope”, mind the fact that this is actually the 2nd step, so we’re already on the “slope”. The Royal Terrace was the test to see if this type of pass would sell.

Now we’re at the next step down the line, of actually removing something and replacing it with a pay service.

Exactly what did they remove that couldn’t already be gotten with the royal terrace pass? I see the captains airship has additional services which was vehemently requested by players. All of these additional services are present in Gendarran.

Poor choice of question. They didn’t remove anything in order to provide the royal terrace pass. It was a bonus convenience item. You could achieve the same thing for free in-game by visiting Lion’s Arch.

It should be a pretty basic mtx tenet that you don’t create inconvenience in your game in order to sell convenience in your mtx store – at least, if you want to adhere to decent business ethics. Selling convenience items is fine, but not if you’re taking stuff out of the game in order to make it a more attractive purchase.

Actually no, it’s not a poor choice of question. Everything that is not in Gendarran could be gotten from the Royal Terrace. You also completely missed that I was specifically addressing the player’s quote so you can easily take what I said out of context.

The royal terrace is another mtx service. I’m not sure what your point is or why you think my reply was out of context.

I was addressing them specifically and the post was tailored to respond to their post only. You then misinterpreted my post and the made up an argument against it. Think of along the lines of strawman but not quite.

Ayrilana.1396:

Faowri.4159:

Ayrilana.1396:

Faowri.4159:

Ayrilana.1396:

mrstealth.6701:

For those that have thrown in the idea of the “slippery slope”, mind the fact that this is actually the 2nd step, so we’re already on the “slope”. The Royal Terrace was the test to see if this type of pass would sell.

Now we’re at the next step down the line, of actually removing something and replacing it with a pay service.

Exactly what did they remove that couldn’t already be gotten with the royal terrace pass? I see the captains airship has additional services which was vehemently requested by players. All of these additional services are present in Gendarran.

Poor choice of question. They didn’t remove anything in order to provide the royal terrace pass. It was a bonus convenience item. You could achieve the same thing for free in-game by visiting Lion’s Arch.

It should be a pretty basic mtx tenet that you don’t create inconvenience in your game in order to sell convenience in your mtx store – at least, if you want to adhere to decent business ethics. Selling convenience items is fine, but not if you’re taking stuff out of the game in order to make it a more attractive purchase.

Actually no, it’s not a poor choice of question. Everything that is not in Gendarran could be gotten from the Royal Terrace. You also completely missed that I was specifically addressing the player’s quote so you can easily take what I said out of context.

The royal terrace is another mtx service. I’m not sure what your point is or why you think my reply was out of context.

I was addressing them specifically and the post was tailored to respond to their post only. You then misinterpreted my post and the made up an argument against it. Think of along the lines of strawman but not quite.

Responding to people is pretty much how the discussion works, so I’m sorry you feel that way. As far as I’m concerned, I addressed something you said and expanded on it. We can agree to disagree in that respect.

As a complete OT aside…

The idea of a singular central town that everyone gathers in is, IMHO, weak tea. If LA never comes back, and Vigil Keep is nothing more than a gate hub, I’d love this. Capital cities should feel full and vibrant, not abandoned wastelands.

Ayrilana.1396:

mrstealth.6701:

For those that have thrown in the idea of the “slippery slope”, mind the fact that this is actually the 2nd step, so we’re already on the “slope”. The Royal Terrace was the test to see if this type of pass would sell.

Now we’re at the next step down the line, of actually removing something and replacing it with a pay service.

Exactly what did they remove that couldn’t already be gotten with the royal terrace pass? I see the captains airship has additional services which was vehemently requested by players. All of these additional services are present in Gendarran.

I was referring to the services (crafting, trait reset, laurels) that were removed from the central hub (now Vigil Keep), compared to the Royal Terrace simply being added to DR without any changes to existing services.

digitalruse.9085:

As a complete OT aside…

The idea of a singular central town that everyone gathers in is, IMHO, weak tea. If LA never comes back, and Vigil Keep is nothing more than a gate hub, I’d love this. Capital cities should feel full and vibrant, not abandoned wastelands.

I fully agree with that and I support the destruction of Lion’s Arch.

I do not support paywalled convenience areas like the airship, however. That to me seems counterintuitive to the goal of bringing cities alive again. Given the choice most players would undoubtedly conduct all of their affairs on that puny ship.

Faowri.4159:

Ayrilana.1396:

Faowri.4159:

Ayrilana.1396:

Faowri.4159:

Ayrilana.1396:

mrstealth.6701:

For those that have thrown in the idea of the “slippery slope”, mind the fact that this is actually the 2nd step, so we’re already on the “slope”. The Royal Terrace was the test to see if this type of pass would sell.

Now we’re at the next step down the line, of actually removing something and replacing it with a pay service.

Exactly what did they remove that couldn’t already be gotten with the royal terrace pass? I see the captains airship has additional services which was vehemently requested by players. All of these additional services are present in Gendarran.

Poor choice of question. They didn’t remove anything in order to provide the royal terrace pass. It was a bonus convenience item. You could achieve the same thing for free in-game by visiting Lion’s Arch.

It should be a pretty basic mtx tenet that you don’t create inconvenience in your game in order to sell convenience in your mtx store – at least, if you want to adhere to decent business ethics. Selling convenience items is fine, but not if you’re taking stuff out of the game in order to make it a more attractive purchase.

Actually no, it’s not a poor choice of question. Everything that is not in Gendarran could be gotten from the Royal Terrace. You also completely missed that I was specifically addressing the player’s quote so you can easily take what I said out of context.

The royal terrace is another mtx service. I’m not sure what your point is or why you think my reply was out of context.

I was addressing them specifically and the post was tailored to respond to their post only. You then misinterpreted my post and the made up an argument against it. Think of along the lines of strawman but not quite.

Responding to people is pretty much how the discussion works, so I’m sorry you feel that way. As far as I’m concerned, I addressed something you said and expanded on it. We can agree to disagree in that respect.

I’ll explain exactly what I was arguing since it was missed above.

The user I was addressing stated there was a slippery slope and the airship pass was the second step while the royal terrace pass was the first. I then countered by asking exactly what was not present in Gendarran that was not already present in the Royal Terrace.

I asked this because if the missing services from Genderran were already present in the Royal Terrace, which was available before the update, then it was not a slippery slope. Nothing would have been gained as the airship contained the same functions as the royal terrace.

I was arguing about his slippery slope argument. You took it as me arguing about the overall discussion of this thread which I wasn’t. That’s why I stated you were taking my post out of context. We were arguing on two entirely different, but related subjects.

mrstealth.6701:

Ayrilana.1396:

mrstealth.6701:

For those that have thrown in the idea of the “slippery slope”, mind the fact that this is actually the 2nd step, so we’re already on the “slope”. The Royal Terrace was the test to see if this type of pass would sell.

Now we’re at the next step down the line, of actually removing something and replacing it with a pay service.

Exactly what did they remove that couldn’t already be gotten with the royal terrace pass? I see the captains airship has additional services which was vehemently requested by players. All of these additional services are present in Gendarran.

I was referring to the services (crafting, trait reset, laurels) that were removed from the central hub (now Vigil Keep), compared to the Royal Terrace simply being added to DR without any changes to existing services.

See my post above. The only thing I see that the airship pass added, that’s not present in Gendarran, would be the retrait npc. I would see that as a valid reason to be upset but that relies entirely on how much of an impact that having to go out of your way to retrait would be.

EDIT:

If you retrait consistently every day, then I would agree that you’re being inconvenienced and the airship pass is being made out to appear to resolve that issue. However, this is not the case for the majority of players as they do not retrait nearly as often.

There’s also the probability that this is likely just a temporary inconvenience and something along the lines of what we once had in LA will be back later this year. Perhaps the first living story of season 2 will be the rebuilding of LA or its equivalent.

Ayrilana.1396:

Faowri.4159:

Ayrilana.1396:

Faowri.4159:

Ayrilana.1396:

Faowri.4159:

Ayrilana.1396:

mrstealth.6701:

For those that have thrown in the idea of the “slippery slope”, mind the fact that this is actually the 2nd step, so we’re already on the “slope”. The Royal Terrace was the test to see if this type of pass would sell.

Now we’re at the next step down the line, of actually removing something and replacing it with a pay service.

Exactly what did they remove that couldn’t already be gotten with the royal terrace pass? I see the captains airship has additional services which was vehemently requested by players. All of these additional services are present in Gendarran.

Poor choice of question. They didn’t remove anything in order to provide the royal terrace pass. It was a bonus convenience item. You could achieve the same thing for free in-game by visiting Lion’s Arch.

It should be a pretty basic mtx tenet that you don’t create inconvenience in your game in order to sell convenience in your mtx store – at least, if you want to adhere to decent business ethics. Selling convenience items is fine, but not if you’re taking stuff out of the game in order to make it a more attractive purchase.

Actually no, it’s not a poor choice of question. Everything that is not in Gendarran could be gotten from the Royal Terrace. You also completely missed that I was specifically addressing the player’s quote so you can easily take what I said out of context.

The royal terrace is another mtx service. I’m not sure what your point is or why you think my reply was out of context.

I was addressing them specifically and the post was tailored to respond to their post only. You then misinterpreted my post and the made up an argument against it. Think of along the lines of strawman but not quite.

Responding to people is pretty much how the discussion works, so I’m sorry you feel that way. As far as I’m concerned, I addressed something you said and expanded on it. We can agree to disagree in that respect.

I’ll explain exactly what I was arguing since it was missed above.

The user I was addressing stated there was a slippery slope and the airship pass was the second step while the royal terrace pass was the first. I then countered by asking exactly what was not present in Gendarran that was not already present in the Royal Terrace.

I asked this because if the missing services from Genderran were already present in the Royal Terrace, which was available before the update, then it was not a slippery slope. Nothing would have been gained as the airship contained the same functions as the royal terrace.

I was arguing about his slippery slope argument. You took it as me arguing about the overall discussion of this thread which I wasn’t. That’s why I stated you were taking my post out of context. We were arguing on two entirely different, but related subjects.

But that’s exactly why I said your question was poorly chosen, as it doesn’t really touch the issue. It’s not a slippery slope because the contents of the airship pass are different to the terrace pass. It’s a slippery slope because the circumstances under which the pass is being sold are different, and have been manufactured as such because something has been removed from the game in order to make the airship pass more useful to buy (assuming it’s not just a mistake, which seems unlikely).

Anyways, I’m not gonna harp on about this specific reply as it’s not really productive, but I appreciate you attempting to clarify.

Ayrilana.1396:

mrstealth.6701

I was referring to the services (crafting, trait reset, laurels) that were removed from the central hub (now Vigil Keep), compared to the Royal Terrace simply being added to DR without any changes to existing services.

See my post above. The only thing I see that the airship pass added, that’s not present in Gendarran, would be the retrait npc. I would see that as a valid reason to be upset but that relies entirely on how much of an impact that having to go out of your way to retrait would be.

I’m not quite certain of the point you’re trying to make, and you seem to have misunderstood the point I was making. It has nothing to do with the airship having more/less services than the Royal Terrace. It’s the fact that services were excluded from Vigil Keep, and put into the airship instead.

When the Royal Terrace was added to DR, it was simply an addition. None of DR’s existing services were effected at all.

The airship has central hub services that were removed from the publicly available area of the central hub.

The ‘slippery slope’ is that DR’s Royal Terrace was simply an added convenience, where as the airship adds convenience to one location while taking it away from another.

laharl.8435:

Aidenwolf.5964:

laharl.8435:

morrolan.9608:

laharl.8435:

Lord Kuru.3685:

You can remove QoL features from the game. You can add QoL features to the game behind a paywall.

But when you take what’s currently a free QoL feature and put it behind a paywall, that’s really bad. And judging from Anet’s response (i.e., none) this is a sign of things to come.

And looking at how Anet creeps these out slowly, here’s likely what’s next:

• Any new map will have a paywall on its WPs. (White knights: “hey, you can just walk so it’s ok, right? Plus, I walk everywhere anyway, who needs WPs?”) Then:
• All WPs will be paywalled. (White knights: “hey, you can just walk so it’s ok, right? Plus, I walk everywhere anyway, who needs WPs?”)

What did they take that was free and put behind a pay wall? Oh, nothing… lol

You’re not actually addressing the argument. As was said earlier in the thread almost every single poster criticising it is putting forth reasoned arguments as to why whereas those who don’t object to it offer nothing.

PookieDaWombat.6209:

NOTHING IS BEHIND A PAYWALL. Was that clear enough for you now? Nothing.

Sure something has been, and its been stated multiple times, convenience.

It’s a single loading screen, are you kidding…

The gem store is supposed to be about convenience. How is this concept so difficult to understand? Look at the other gem store items, all quality of life items, items of convenience. This is how non-p2w games runs a cash shop.

You’re missing the point. We already had convenience, they removed it and are now charging us to get it back.

You’re missing the point. It’s one single waypoint hahahahahahaha!!!!!!!

A single way point can take up minutes of loading screen time, double that if you have to waypoint back. There can be no argument that convenience has been removed.

Fungalfoot.7213:

digitalruse.9085:

As a complete OT aside…

The idea of a singular central town that everyone gathers in is, IMHO, weak tea. If LA never comes back, and Vigil Keep is nothing more than a gate hub, I’d love this. Capital cities should feel full and vibrant, not abandoned wastelands.

I fully agree with that and I support the destruction of Lion’s Arch.

I do not support paywalled convenience areas like the airship, however. That to me seems counterintuitive to the goal of bringing cities alive again. Given the choice most players would undoubtedly conduct all of their affairs on that puny ship.

Using the term “paywalled” is disingenuous and I assume people continue to use it for the purposes of rhetoric. It is not like there is a service that only exists in the terrace or on the airship. Yes, you have to hop around a bit while the continent is at war. One could make the case, from a lore/story standpoint, war is and should be inconvenient. People can’t ask for engaging and world altering content and then be mad when the world is altered.

As far as lots of people in these convenience areas are concerned, as a long time user of the Royal Terrace on a very high pop server, I can tell you that is not the case once the event is over and consumable tickets are used up. At most, I see 12 or so people in there at a time. Even guesting on Blackgate there have been very few people on there.

I am still willing to believe and give ANet the benefit of that doubt that worst case this was a simple oversight. I think they will ultimately have to put a MF in every capital city to spread people out. That just seems to be a magnet for the population for whatever reason. The lore behind it was weak and a little cludgy as it was, so I don’t think there will be any love lost if they do that. Heck, Zorromos might insist on it give LA’s track record.

morrolan.9608:

laharl.8435:

Aidenwolf.5964:

laharl.8435:

morrolan.9608:

laharl.8435:

Lord Kuru.3685:

You can remove QoL features from the game. You can add QoL features to the game behind a paywall.

But when you take what’s currently a free QoL feature and put it behind a paywall, that’s really bad. And judging from Anet’s response (i.e., none) this is a sign of things to come.

And looking at how Anet creeps these out slowly, here’s likely what’s next:

• Any new map will have a paywall on its WPs. (White knights: “hey, you can just walk so it’s ok, right? Plus, I walk everywhere anyway, who needs WPs?”) Then:
• All WPs will be paywalled. (White knights: “hey, you can just walk so it’s ok, right? Plus, I walk everywhere anyway, who needs WPs?”)

What did they take that was free and put behind a pay wall? Oh, nothing… lol

You’re not actually addressing the argument. As was said earlier in the thread almost every single poster criticising it is putting forth reasoned arguments as to why whereas those who don’t object to it offer nothing.

PookieDaWombat.6209:

NOTHING IS BEHIND A PAYWALL. Was that clear enough for you now? Nothing.

Sure something has been, and its been stated multiple times, convenience.

It’s a single loading screen, are you kidding…

The gem store is supposed to be about convenience. How is this concept so difficult to understand? Look at the other gem store items, all quality of life items, items of convenience. This is how non-p2w games runs a cash shop.

You’re missing the point. We already had convenience, they removed it and are now charging us to get it back.

You’re missing the point. It’s one single waypoint hahahahahahaha!!!!!!!

A single way point can take up minutes of loading screen time, double that if you have to waypoint back. There can be no argument that convenience has been removed.

Oh, you mean waypoints loading into the old LA? Yeah, those were terrible, another reason I don’t miss that place.

Sure there is a defense force for anything here. Quite astounding.

The issue is not that there is crafting available somewhere in the world.

The issue is that they removed a QoL feature (central hub) that was already in the game, are making us pay to have it back.

I haven’t seen anyone mention Guild commendations. I guess now you will have to pay the gems in order to get to the airship to cash in your guild commendations. Or did I miss that it was also a convenience in other cities also?

Quite a brazen move by Arena Net to destroy the central player hub move most NPC’s to a new location but reserve several for a service you must pay for. To be honest I see it is an incredibly cheeky move though it could be a massive oversight.

Though considering we just got a patch and Arena Net have not added them to the player hub, one can assume their opinion is a big fat F you. A handful of people may be okay with this, but their selfish desires does not fix this issue for many others.

Destroy Lions Arch, destroy Rata Sum for all I care, but do not remove convenience from me and put it behind a greedy gemstore transaction.

Let me get this logic straight. All of the conveniences that LA had have been moved to the keep except for the crafting stations, which are found in every home city and even in WvW.

A new pass has come out, which is exactly like the old one, and it costs 1,000 gems for permanent access and 150 for two week access.

Bearing in mind that gems can be bought with gold, the conclusion we have come to is that Anet has created somewhat of a pay to win model?

Yeah, this wouldn’t pass logic class. Why do I get on these forums?

digitalruse.9085:

Using the term “paywalled” is disingenuous and I assume people continue to use it for the purposes of rhetoric. It is not like there is a service that only exists in the terrace or on the airship. Yes, you have to hop around a bit while the continent is at war. One could make the case, from a lore/story standpoint, war is and should be inconvenient. People can’t ask for engaging and world altering content and then be mad when the world is altered.

As far as lots of people in these convenience areas are concerned, as a long time user of the Royal Terrace on a very high pop server, I can tell you that is not the case once the event is over and consumable tickets are used up. At most, I see 12 or so people in there at a time. Even guesting on Blackgate there have been very few people on there.

I am still willing to believe and give ANet the benefit of that doubt that worst case this was a simple oversight. I think they will ultimately have to put a MF in every capital city to spread people out. That just seems to be a magnet for the population for whatever reason. The lore behind it was weak and a little cludgy as it was, so I don’t think there will be any love lost if they do that. Heck, Zorromos might insist on it give LA’s track record.

The area in question, as I clearly noted in my post, is without a doubt paywalled so I’m going to have to throw that accusation right back at you. I made no mention of the services themselves which can certainly be found in other areas. This is by design in order to encourage people to open their wallets and pay for the convience of getting it all in one place. Nobody wants to sit through more loading screens than necessary.

The reason why the royal terrace never took off was because Lion’s Arch remained the premier option. Why spend precious gems when you’ve already got a perfectly fine hub at your disposal? With Lion’s Arch gone I’m not sure things will be that simple. I reckon that permanent pass has been a real big seller for them. Time will tell but I can’t help but view the move as exceedingly tasteless.

MightyMicah.7451:

Let me get this logic straight. All of the conveniences that LA had have been moved to the keep except for the crafting stations, which are found in every home city and even in WvW.

A new pass has come out, which is exactly like the old one, and it costs 1,000 gems for permanent access and 150 for two week access.

Bearing in mind that gems can be bought with gold, the conclusion we have come to is that Anet has created somewhat of a pay to win model?

Yeah, this wouldn’t pass logic class. Why do I get on these forums?

Don’t forget that most of these people are also talking about losing convenience and LA in the same breath. Other cities have always had better loading times and better grouping of the crafting stations, bank and TP. They’re just complaining in order to complain.

Fungalfoot.7213:

The area in question, as I clearly noted in my post, is without a doubt paywalled so I’m going to have to throw that accusation right back at you. I made no mention of the services themselves which can certainly be found in other areas.

Throw it back all you’d like, it won’t stick. All the services that were in LA are available by using the keep or the other cities. You pay $0 to get to all that. You might have to alt-tab for an additional 20 seconds. Tragic.

My points were (and no one wants to talk about):

• People wanted the LS to actually change the landscape of the game physically and culturally. This update did that, and now people are crying that it did that. Be careful what you wish for I guess.

• War sucks and often makes things inconvenient. I know from the safety and comfort our first world homes that may be lost on some people, but that is how it is. So, I appreciate the genuineness of people having to “feel a little pain” now that a capital city is under attack.

This is by design in order to encourage people to open their wallets and pay for the convience of getting it all in one place. Nobody wants to sit through more loading screens than necessary.

Man, I wish I had your omniscience. You know they designed it that way for a fact? That’s incredible. We can just call this thread closed then.

The reason why the royal terrace never took off was because Lion’s Arch remained the premier option. Why spend precious gems when you’ve already got a perfectly fine hub at your disposal?

The same reason I used Rata Sum until the one day sale of a permanent ticket; quiet map chat and no spazzy people blasting AoEs and dropping fun boxes in front of NPCs. The Terrace still gets DR chat, but since no one was there and in LA all the time, it was quiet as well. Also, aside from there being no MF, Rata and the Grove are superior for travel between the bank, TP, and crafting.

With Lion’s Arch gone I’m not sure things will be that simple. I reckon that permanent pass has been a real big seller for them. Time will tell but I can’t help but view the move as exceedingly tasteless.

Considering I am sitting on about 32 one use passes, it will be hard to tell how long it will be popular. Even now, on a very high pop server, the airship sits pretty vacant. It will probably be more so after the consumables run out.

All that said, here is the one thing ANet has absolutely failed at with regard to this topic: they are not communicating with their players. A simple response that clarifies their intent would go a long way to easing the vitriol.

One word: Nexon. This was all done for money. If you don’t believe it look into nexon and their latest investment….I would say more but I don’t want to be forum banned/ censored.

Why else would vigil keep conveniently leave out the crafting stations that everyone needs because of the new ascended back pieces that came with this update? Also, to my knowledge there is no where to spend guild commendations without air ship pass

A lot of this will be duplications of points that I have already made but here goes…

Faowri.4159:

But that’s exactly why I said your question was poorly chosen, as it doesn’t really touch the issue. It’s not a slippery slope because the contents of the airship pass are different to the terrace pass. It’s a slippery slope because the circumstances under which the pass is being sold are different, and have been manufactured as such because something has been removed from the game in order to make the airship pass more useful to buy (assuming it’s not just a mistake, which seems unlikely).

Anyways, I’m not gonna harp on about this specific reply as it’s not really productive, but I appreciate you attempting to clarify.

I think you need to taken a second look at the post that I was responding to as that may resolve some of the confusion. I’ll quote it below for you.

“For those that have thrown in the idea of the “slippery slope”, mind the fact that this is actually the 2nd step, so we’re already on the “slope”. The Royal Terrace was the test to see if this type of pass would sell.

Now we’re at the next step down the line, of actually removing something and replacing it with a pay service."

I responded by asking, of the services not available in Gendarran, which are not present in the Royal Terrace. The reasoning for this was to demonstrate there was no slippery slope as the services “lost” when LA was destroyed were already present in Royal Terrace. The additional services with the airship pass do not matter as they are already present in Gendarran.

The conditions behind the introduction of the airship pass doesn’t matter because LA was going to fall whether or not the airship pass was released. Thinking that they engineered the fall of LA specifically to sell those passes is pure speculation without any factual weight behind it.

I can entertain your eblief that they created the fall of LA to “remove” services in order to sell airship passes. What exactly do players gain from an airship pass that they couldn’t already gain from the Royal Terrace pass? Bear in mind that this is from services not present in Gendarran.

There are only two services that I am aware of: retrait npc and laurel merchant. Those are the only two services that are not present in Gendarran and the Royal Terrace but present in the airship pass. I had mentioned this already in a previous post. I also went on to say that these two services would not matter unless you used them all the time. I don’t see anyone using the laurel merchant on a daily basis and may likely go out of their way anyway if they had a need for it. The retrait npc will likely only be an issue if you retrait all of the time. What percentage of the player base retraits all of the time? I’m pretty sure it’s a very small percentage.

TL;DR ~

You’re stating it’s a slippery slope because they removed something from the game in order to make the airship pass more useful.

I’m disagreeing because your making an assumption based on know facts regarding their reasons for the pass and that technically nothing was lost except for the retrait npc and laurel merchant.

mrstealth.6701:

I’m not quite certain of the point you’re trying to make, and you seem to have misunderstood the point I was making. It has nothing to do with the airship having more/less services than the Royal Terrace. It’s the fact that services were excluded from Vigil Keep, and put into the airship instead.

When the Royal Terrace was added to DR, it was simply an addition. None of DR’s existing services were effected at all.

The airship has central hub services that were removed from the publicly available area of the central hub.

The ‘slippery slope’ is that DR’s Royal Terrace was simply an added convenience, where as the airship adds convenience to one location while taking it away from another.

Rather than repeat what I just said, and save time from summarizing, please see my response above this post. Instead, I’ll specifically address points in your quoted post.

The differences in services between the Royal Terrace and airship pass were not part of your point like you stated. I know that they weren’t as they were part of my counter-argument against yours. See above for the reasoning behind it. The only two services excluded from the Vigil keep were the retrait npc and the laurel merchant. As I stated above, I could agree with you on this on the assumption that these services actually mattered. I only saw the retrait npc mattering IF the player uses that service often.

If the airship pass was not introduced, but the Royal Terrace pass was made available (I can’t remember if it was ever removed but I don’t see it listed now), would your argument still stand that they engineered the destruction of LA for the sole purpose to sell more passes?

I disagree with with your argument that it was a slippery slope because they took services away and made it only available if you purchased the airship pass. My entire argument in this thread has been against your argument that it was a slippery slope. Only two services were “lost” and are no longer conveniently located in Gendarran amongst the other services.

The usage of these services is what matters as to whether it would be a slippery slope and I stated that the impact was very minimal do it would be a no. The loss of those two services are too minor to justify among the majority of the population to warrant the transition of the airship pass from the royal terrace as being a slippery slope. If they took away something like the bank or TP, then I would be more inclined to agree.

TL;DR ~ The introduction of the airship pass did not present any major (yes, I know that word is subjective) loss in services to the majority of the population that was any different than what a user could already get from a Royal Terrace pass. As a result, there was no slippery slope present. This Gendarran thing is likely only temporary and a central hub may be built in future living stories.

piffdaddy.8014:

One word: Nexon. This was all done for money. If you don’t believe it look into nexon and their latest investment….I would say more but I don’t want to be forum banned/ censored.

The secret password is “punch and pie”. We’ll meet at the Lion statue and we’ll reveal this nefarious conspiracy for what it is!

Why else would vigil keep conveniently leave out the crafting stations that everyone needs because of the new ascended back pieces that came with this update? Also, to my knowledge there is no where to spend guild commendations without air ship pass

1.) Go to another capital city.
2.) Go to another capital city.
3.) Go to another capital city.

The is a brave new world outside of Lion’s Arch. I know people are scared. It will be okay.

piffdaddy.8014:

One word: Nexon. This was all done for money. If you don’t believe it look into nexon and their latest investment….I would say more but I don’t want to be forum banned/ censored.

Why else would vigil keep conveniently leave out the crafting stations that everyone needs because of the new ascended back pieces that came with this update? Also, to my knowledge there is no where to spend guild commendations without air ship pass

There is, if you keep your eyes opened you can see them.

Rangersix.1754:

Don’t forget that most of these people are also talking about losing convenience and LA in the same breath. Other cities have always had better loading times and better grouping of the crafting stations, bank and TP. They’re just complaining in order to complain.

But no mystic toilet, so no it isn’t just complaining for the sake of it.

Ayrilana.1396:

The only two services excluded from the Vigil keep were the retrait npc and the laurel merchant. As I stated above, I could agree with you on this on the assumption that these services actually mattered. I only saw the retrait npc mattering IF the player uses that service often.

If the airship pass was not introduced, but the Royal Terrace pass was made available (I can’t remember if it was ever removed but I don’t see it listed now), would your argument still stand that they engineered the destruction of LA for the sole purpose to sell more passes?

I disagree with with your argument that it was a slippery slope because they took services away and made it only available if you purchased the airship pass. My entire argument in this thread has been against your argument that it was a slippery slope. Only two services were “lost” and are no longer conveniently located in Gendarran amongst the other services.

Actually, the ‘lost’ service that is causing the biggest issue are the crafting stations.

And your argument still has nothing to do with my statement about it being a ‘slippery slope’. The entire “slippery slope” is the removal of services from public access, and into pass-only areas. It has nothing to do with the services available in the Terrace compared to the ones available in the airship.

Royal Terrace – A convenience area was added to DR with some extra services that were not previously there.

Airship – Services that have existed in the central hub (LA) since release or their addition to the game were removed from public access in the new central hub (Vigil Keep), and placed into a pass-only area.

The ‘slippery slope’ is that removal of services, for the purpose of making the passes more tempting to buy. Adding the Royal Terrace did not do this, but the changes to Vigil Keep and addition of the airship did do it. Hence it being one step down onto the ‘slippery slope’ in relation to the impact of the Terrrace.

piffdaddy.8014:

One word: Nexon. This was all done for money. If you don’t believe it look into nexon and their latest investment….I would say more but I don’t want to be forum banned/ censored.

Why else would vigil keep conveniently leave out the crafting stations that everyone needs because of the new ascended back pieces that came with this update? Also, to my knowledge there is no where to spend guild commendations without air ship pass

Why are you complaining for the sake of complaining? Anyone that opens the map while in Gendarran Fields for 2 second can see the huge icon of the guild commendations vendor.

On a somewhat related note, what are the thoughts of players who bought the Royal Terrace pass now that the Captain’s Airship is introduced? From what I hear, the Airship has two additional NPCs (Black Lion Weapon merchant and the Daily Activity, although it apparently lacks a trait resetter), but the biggest benefit is probably how it can be accessed from any PvE map.

Their recent cash shop items are terribly designed, from flamekissed to watchwork pick to airship pass.

I love how all the Anet Fan boys try to defend this move. I have a couple of points to show you the foolishness of your defense.

1) The Royal Pass vs Airship Pass debate. The Royal pass was a true convenience item. It took every item/service that was available in Divinity’s Reach, put them in a central location and allowed you to purchase it if you desired the convenience. Nothing that was available in Divinity’s Reach before the pass was introduced was removed so if you didn’t mind the run between crafting stations or to the bank/tp you didn’t need the pass. The new Airship pass changes that. Now before the fan boys start with “but there were no crafting stations in Vigil Keep” nonsense, I’m talking about vigil keep as the current central hub. The old central hub (LA) had crafting stations and the new central hub only has them behind a pay wall. This is the major complaint here. Not that we can’t go elsewhere and craft etc. You CANNOT do the same things in the new central hub as you could before unless you pay money for the privilege. Before you start with the “it’s only in-game gold” line of thought, remember generating in-game gold takes time and time is money to quote a phrase.

2) The argument that the gem store is only or has only convenience or QoL items in it. I’m sorry but you’re wrong. Unlimited gathering tools, bank expansions are convenience and QoL items. Ugly armor skins, Quaggan hats and other cosmetic items are not a convenience, they are not QoL they are optional items that can/should be in a gem store. You want them, fine, pay for them and that’s what a gem store is supposed to carry true convenience items such as unlimited tools and optional items such as cosmetic gear.

3) For the “maybe it’s just an oversight/mistake crowd” on the absence of the crafting stations. I’m sorry but when the “oversight” happens on the same day as the pass is introduced and not a single dev has said it’s an oversight well…… if it looks like a money grab, quacks like a money grab, it’s a money grab pure and simple.

For all those posting in this thread and saying “it’s just an extra way point”, “you can craft elsewhere”. Why are you posting? You say we’re complaining just to complain but you fail to realize at least we have a concern, we are posting in a thread to express this concern to Anet. All you’re doing is making the thread longer and antagonizing the people who feel they have a concern and a need to post about it. Talk about a toxic community. I would understand it if the posts in this thread we’re saying we couldn’t craft anywhere else in the world now and you were pointing out the various other locations we can craft. That would be a true answer to our posts but the posts in this thread are not about that. They are about how a convenience/QoL aspect of the game (the ability to craft and mystic forge in the same location) has been removed from the game and put behind a pay wall. That is our concern, That is our problem with this update.

Anything can be bargained and rationalized away, no matter how outrageous.

They took crafting stations out of the transportation hub so they could sell access to them in an airship overhead? So what?

At least the champ trains run on time.

mrstealth.6701:

Actually, the ‘lost’ service that is causing the biggest issue are the crafting stations.

Which I mentioned before that the Royal Terrace had as well. Your argument against it being a slippery slope is invalid if this is what you’re referring to. You made a comparison between the Royal Terrace and airship pass. Both have the crafting stations. Since both have them, there’s no change and thus no slippery slope.

mrstealth.6701:

And your argument still has nothing to do with my statement about it being a ‘slippery slope’. The entire “slippery slope” is the removal of services from public access, and into pass-only areas. It has nothing to do with the services available in the Terrace compared to the ones available in the airship.

They weren’t removed from public access. You can still get them in any of the major cities. The only thing is that they’re not all centrally located like LA pre-update. Please re-read my arguments as the services available between each of the special areas compared to Gendarran is relevant. You made a comparison between the Royal Terrace and airship pass and stated there was a slippery slope.

mrstealth.6701:

Royal Terrace – A convenience area was added to DR with some extra services that were not previously there.

Airship – Services that have existed in the central hub (LA) since release or their addition to the game were removed from public access in the new central hub (Vigil Keep), and placed into a pass-only area.

Only two services, as I had previously mentioned, are not accessible. You’re making the assumption that Anet deliberately did not include some services just to promote their airship pass. This is pure speculation based on no factual evidence. If I’m wrong then by all means provide the evidence.

mrstealth.6701:

The ‘slippery slope’ is that removal of services, for the purpose of making the passes more tempting to buy. Adding the Royal Terrace did not do this, but the changes to Vigil Keep and addition of the airship did do it. Hence it being one step down onto the ‘slippery slope’ in relation to the impact of the Terrrace.

Again, this is speculation based on zero factual evidence. Provide the evidence and then that argument will hold weight.

I wish I would’ve bought the Royal Terrace (Permanent) when it was on sale, but my credit card was blocked for some reason on that day.

I bought the Airship pass, and it’s so UGLY compared to the Royal Terrace + I love Divinity’s Reach.

/small rant over lol

Bunter.3795:

I love how all the Anet Fan boys try to defend this move. I have a couple of points to show you the foolishness of your defense.

Starting your post off with calling someone an “Anet fan boy” which that type of phrase usuage used to insult people just shows immaturity and weakens in argument you may potentially have. Please refrain from doing this in the future.

Bunter.3795:

1) The Royal Pass vs Airship Pass debate. The Royal pass was a true convenience item. It took every item/service that was available in Divinity’s Reach, put them in a central location and allowed you to purchase it if you desired the convenience. Nothing that was available in Divinity’s Reach before the pass was introduced was removed so if you didn’t mind the run between crafting stations or to the bank/tp you didn’t need the pass. The new Airship pass changes that. Now before the fan boys start with “but there were no crafting stations in Vigil Keep” nonsense, I’m talking about vigil keep as the current central hub. The old central hub (LA) had crafting stations and the new central hub only has them behind a pay wall. This is the major complaint here. Not that we can’t go elsewhere and craft etc. You CANNOT do the same things in the new central hub as you could before unless you pay money for the privilege. Before you start with the “it’s only in-game gold” line of thought, remember generating in-game gold takes time and time is money to quote a phrase.

You missed the whole point of the royal terrace pass and airship pass debate. That argument was not being used to debate the validity of the airship pass like the rest of this thread. Please read the rest of the posts on that and then come back.

I don’t like the direction this game is going to be honest and i don’t know about you guys but no one should support or be happy about it. All new armor and weapon skins are obtainable trough gem store ( i can understand some of that) and now they are taking features and making them only obtainable to those that pay, now that is really bad.

What is next? you will only travel to certain places via airship (with thicket) or make full areas/wvw only able to enter via a pass bought with gems? This is bad, love the game and all but i think the devs are killing it

this game instead of progressing is going backwards, now we lost features. Well we get them only if we pay. Very sad, i am a free to play model believer but sometimes i wonder if is really viable? I prefer to pay monthly and everyone be equal than just some rich ones that pay get goodies, services and such. With so many MMOs coming anet better step there game up

i was hoping LA stayed destroy forever or at least some times but now with all this pass things. I hope is ready back up at least for the patch after march 4

Ayrilana.1396:

Starting your post off with calling someone an “Anet fan boy” which that type of phrase usuage used to insult people just shows immaturity and weakens in argument you may potentially have. Please refrain from doing this in the future.

They removed the game’s central player hub, replaced it with a lesser version with missing features and added a gemstore permanent mini-hub with all the features ABOVE THE REMOVED ONE.

Defenders of that move should be happy with fanbois, the alternatives would be a lot more insulting… not that they’d get it though.