Guild Wars 2

An important point was raised here and I felt it deserved its own thread.

What will happen to NPC dialogue and heart mail throughout the other zones that reference Lion’s Arch as a fully functioning (and intact) city?

Quoting the original post:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

There is so much chat and flavor text alluding to LA and trade throughout the game. The entire premise of the Havens and LionGuard out in the world zones is entirely connected to LA and trade route protection.

Hearts, Flavor text, dialog.. just a ton of in game information and lore connected to LA as it is now. If they leave all of that unchanged.. and given their track record they will, then we will have, again, NPCs and institutions blissfully unaware of LA destruction, living in the past, and what should be a world shaking event becomes simply a disconnected zone makeover like Kessex.

If they are going to present this as half-done, it shouldn’t have been done at all… I pity the future new players who listen to NPCs, read flavor text, read the hearts, and wonder why so much effort is being made to move trade to a City that no longer exists, and why NPCs keep acting as if nothing happened.

This user also posted an image as an example (attached).

So I guess my question is, will the devs actually take a scalpel and modify all references to Lion’s Arch throughout the game world and change them? Or are new players just going to be disappointed when they travel to the great city of Lion’s Arch only to find it’s in ruins (thereby contradicting what NPC’s in the game world have told them).

For that matter, what will happen to all the Lionguard havens? Will they all shut down, seeing as how trade routes will no longer be possible? What about all the dynamic events connected to Lion’s Arch? There are quite a few events involving defending caravans heading to Lion’s Arch, etc. Will they be removed, or will the NPC’s involved act oblivious to the fact that they’re heading toward a monster-infested ruin?

I’m a bit concerned. The integration of the Living Story into the base game hasn’t been great so far, and if the same attention to detail is exercised here there will be contradictions popping up all over the game world.

If Anet had intended this change from start they would have thought about this.

And really how many are there to change. Call it a dozen?They can just change those hearts to reflect the changes in LA. So the previous heart mission goal is complete and a new heart is placed for a new mission.

Anet did say the end of the current LS will change Tyria forever.

Hmmmm.
It’s an interesting issue.

Technically all heart quests in game occur before Zhaitan’s death while the living story occurs the year after (going on the official timeline).

So they could leave all heart dialogue since it is essentially not rendered incorrect by the living story – it’s just happening at a different time.

Darkoray.4570:

… really how many are there to change. Call it a dozen?They can just change those hearts to reflect the changes in LA. So the previous heart mission goal is complete and a new heart is placed for a new mission.

I have a feeling it’s more than a dozen. It’s not just the text they need to change, either. The tasks you perform to complete those hearts involve keeping the roads clear so that trade can continue to flow to Lion’s Arch. Will they change how those hearts work entirely? It seems like a lot of precision work for a four-month development cycle…

If they actually go all the way and make new events and hearts to accomodate Lion’s Arch’s destruction, I guess I can’t complain, I just have a feeling that’s not what we’re going to get.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Technically all heart quests in game occur before Zhaitan’s death while the living story occurs the year after (going on the official timeline)… So they could leave all heart dialogue since it is essentially not rendered incorrect by the living story – it’s just happening at a different time.

Right, but new players won’t know that. And established players who haven’t gotten around to map completion will find a lot of contradictions in what they’re reading/experiencing when they do decide to get it done.

Yeah I agree. I imagine they will change it all, so we shouldnt worry. They have a whole team of people whose job it is to pre-empt issues like this.

Is it worth changing if Lion’s Arch is only temporarily occupied and two months from now the players are once again perched on the AFK ledge or next to the bank NPC?

Maybe news travels slow in Tyria, there is no internet after all haha.

There was this tweet from a GW2 writer a bit back: https://twitter.com/John_J_Ryan/status/417058515035779072

“Writing for February content. Feels like choreographing the invasion of another country, down to the foot soldier.”

Maybe that’s what the writer meant – maybe fixing all of the dialog around the world for this event? Though I’m probably wrong. lol

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Yeah I agree. I imagine they will change it all, so we shouldnt worry. They have a whole team of people whose job it is to pre-empt issues like this.

I worry because the Tower of Nightmares – which changed Kessex Hills forever – had some problems with integration.

A few examples: Remember how the Battle of Fort Salma raged on despite the fact that both sides were breathing toxic fumes, which both sides seemed not to notice? Yeah, that. Also, how the centaurs wouldn’t fight the Toxic Alliance or even notice they were there? That too.

The inconsistencies that popped up around that chapter could be contained because they were localized to one area in one zone. This time, Lion’s Arch’s absence will affect many zones in many places for many reasons.

And that’s why I suspect LA will not be destroyed completely. It will be under attack, partially burned, but it will be repaired and re-inhabited fairly quickly once the Living Story is concluded.

If they can prove that the loss of LA changes other conversations, mail, etc. then it can truly be a living world and show the possibility to finally cure Orr as well. It’s kind of sad that a poorly executed personal story could keep the world from progressing and having a better story in the future.

Darkoray.4570:

And really how many are there to change. Call it a dozen?They can just change those hearts to reflect the changes in LA. So the previous heart mission goal is complete and a new heart is placed for a new mission.

Some hearts are completely based around it – they cannot be changed, because no Lion’s Arch means no lionguard, and that means all those guard outposts should just end up abandoned. And there’s a lot of those.
Think for example of Wayfarer’s foothills. There are two lionguard keeps there, at least 4 hearts, and a whole event chain (assault on Svanir dome) there. Without LA support all those keeps would not be able to withstand constant svanir assaults anymore and should just fall. Or be evacuated.
And that’s only one map.

Step 1: “ctrl-f”
Step 2: “Lion’s Arch”

Astralporing.1957:

Darkoray.4570:

And really how many are there to change. Call it a dozen?They can just change those hearts to reflect the changes in LA. So the previous heart mission goal is complete and a new heart is placed for a new mission.

Some hearts are completely based around it – they cannot be changed, because no Lion’s Arch means no lionguard, and that means all those guard outposts should just end up abandoned. And there’s a lot of those.
Think for example of Wayfarer’s foothills. There are two lionguard keeps there, at least 4 hearts, and a whole event chain (assault on Svanir dome) there. Without LA support all those keeps would not be able to withstand constant svanir assaults anymore and should just fall. Or be evacuated.
And that’s only one map.

I don’t see why no LA means no Lionguard or that the outposts would be abandoned.
Personally I would think it would be a good reason to keep the outposts open.

Miners near Ebonhawke still talk about the giant sinkhole in Divinity Reach where the Collapse used to be. That might have been an oversight though.

Kessex changed considerably on the second patch of that LS chapter. The first was an implementation disaster with bugged hearts and non-sensical Dynamic events ignoring everything going around in the LS.

I hope Anet gets it right the first time around now, and the Attack on and the possible destruction of Lions Arch is trully reflected on the entire world (that is supposed to be rocked to its core in the next few patches) to the smallest details.

lakdav.3694:

Miners near Ebonhawke still talk about the giant sinkhole in Divinity Reach where the Collapse used to be. That might have been an oversight though.

That’s fine, there’s an NPC in Hoelbrak that’s still raving about ‘creatures of steam and fire’ from back in the molten alliance days…

Atrophied.8725:

That’s fine, there’s an NPC in Hoelbrak that’s still raving about ‘creatures of steam and fire’ from back in the molten alliance days…

I’ll point it out politely, before one of the forum cowboys jumps in…

She is not referring to the Molten Alliance, she means the Steam creatures out in Lornar’s Pass. She was there well before the living story began.

It’ll never feel like a real world, if they don’t intend to use the stuff the npcs already created. The pact has a whole bunch of war equipment. Airships, helicopters, tanks, megalasers and what not. And no one really intend to use or modify those to fight Scarlet/ her ufo thing?
The npcs don’t even seem to notice or care about whats happening. Even if they stand next to those new enemys and dangers. Expect Ellen Kiel and Evon Gnashblade. But even those don’t try to get help from all the other cities, orders or the pact in general.
Personal storyline told us, that the npcs just learned how to work together to kill an elder dragon, but all of the npcs just forget about that, when it comes to Scarlet.
It’s like “Hey, we didn’t even notice that she build an Energy Probe right in Lions Arch.” Quaggan that live there and swim in those waters all day long wouldn’t have noticed or talked about it, so someone else could’ve noticed it. Really?
Same thing with the Tower of Nightmares. Mesmer magic can really affect the world, so that no one that went swimming in that lake, would bump against an invisible wall? Or did they hire a bunch of mesmers to create portals whenever someone wanted to swim through and shouldn’t notice that there was a very big tower in their way?

Yeah, it’s nice to have a living story and some action, but if this affects the whole world of Tyria, it should be more well-conceived than it is now.

Ctrl + F, “Lion’s Arch”, type Insert New Hub Here, click Replace, there I fixed it.

Ken DeBoer.9268:

Ctrl + F, “Lion’s Arch”, type Insert New Hub Here, click Replace, there I fixed it.

Please dont. If Anet does that and doesnt even bother reading the actual context the Lions Arch name is in, it will be a mess of gigantic proportions. Not every sentence with the city name is replaceable like this in a way that makes sense. I dread to think about the kittenstorm in the lore forums if such a lazy implementation would take place.

OP I am not sure when last you were in Kessex- I suggest you stop at Overlake Haven and listen to the NPC dialog.
(It is not just there but I was just there 5 minutes ago)
It reflects recent events- hearts around the Lake has also been changed to reflect the events of the last months.
Kessex has gone trough about 4 different incarnations recently.

The zone is returning to it’s former beauty as we speak- albeit gradually with clean up crews etc

I think that with LA we will see the same thing, with regards to the surrounding zones – I don’t think we will actually return to LA

I’m still not convinced LA is going to be gone forever, or even very long.

Even if the city is almost completely destroyed I can’t see the surviving residents just accepting that and moving somewhere else. I think with or without us they’d fight to keep their city and rebuild it once it’s safe.

That’s what happens with a lot of real life cities. Take London, England for example (just because I happen to be looking at it now). This place has been invaded, conquered, abandoned, knocked down, burned down, blown up etc. etc. repeatedly. But when it’s over people come back and rebuild.

Same with LA in the past, even before GW1 it had been through some pretty rough times, but as long as it’s a relatively central location with a good harbour and building land people are going to want to live there.

lakdav.3694:

Ken DeBoer.9268:

Ctrl + F, “Lion’s Arch”, type Insert New Hub Here, click Replace, there I fixed it.

Please dont. If Anet does that and doesnt even bother reading the actual context the Lions Arch name is in, it will be a mess of gigantic proportions. Not every sentence with the city name is replaceable like this in a way that makes sense. I dread to think about the kittenstorm in the lore forums if such a lazy implementation would take place.

Whoa. Ken was just explaining that the issue is not a big deal and having a bit of fun. Anet is not going to do a replace all on the word Lion’s Arch. It’s srs bsns.

Plus all the personal stories involving / happening in/about LA. Just to mention 1: the Claw Island series would be obsolete. What happens to those that are in between the lost and retaking of Claw Island? Nah! LA has been rebuilt before, I’m sure it will be again. Not that I good redesigned wouldn’t be welcomed.

I think everyone’s assuming LA will be a rubble pile permanently, which is probably not going to be the case. I don’t think any dev anywhere mentioned it being “gone” for good. If I’m right, then those hearts and dialogue would be generally fine.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Astralporing.1957:

Darkoray.4570:

And really how many are there to change. Call it a dozen?They can just change those hearts to reflect the changes in LA. So the previous heart mission goal is complete and a new heart is placed for a new mission.

Some hearts are completely based around it – they cannot be changed, because no Lion’s Arch means no lionguard, and that means all those guard outposts should just end up abandoned. And there’s a lot of those.
Think for example of Wayfarer’s foothills. There are two lionguard keeps there, at least 4 hearts, and a whole event chain (assault on Svanir dome) there. Without LA support all those keeps would not be able to withstand constant svanir assaults anymore and should just fall. Or be evacuated.
And that’s only one map.

I don’t see why no LA means no Lionguard or that the outposts would be abandoned.
Personally I would think it would be a good reason to keep the outposts open.

Lionguard is the organization that is funded by the LA captain council (which is funded by LA being the trade hub of the region – and possibly by taxes). If the city end up a pile of ruins, all that money (and other resources) will disappear. Additionally, trade routes that those keeps protect lead to LA – no LA, no reason to protect them.
Remember, that those outposts are not self-sufficient. Besides soldiers getting paid, they need food, supplies, reinforcements and some central source of command. And the income in the whole region is gonna go down hard. And that’s without even mentioning stability – all those farms and settlements in gendarran fields? Likely burned to the ground within days.

Not that i exect anything like that to happen. Most likely the destruction of LA will get completely unnoticed by the world at large, because it will be just too big a change for Anet to implement.

I think people are unfortunately ignorant of just how well crafted the whole “LA as trade Center” idea was done. It is big, well thought out, makes sense, and shows the Lionguard and havens as a totally apolitical entity only concerned with that trade. It really is one of the stars of the game as launched. “Commerce beats Combat”

Oh well, click through dialog, don’t read letters, don’t pay attention to flavor chat. I understand that. Players do that in every game.

What I won’t be able to forgive is if Anet throws this all out.. because they DO know it is there. I cannot fathom them stomping all over their own creation as they did on a much smaller scale in Kessex. Kessex was just more visible.. they have done it in every update but it was always temporary.

Nothing about LS is worth this kind of lore and continuity loss.

I keep wondering why people think that LA is going away on account of this update, or is being changed in such a drastic manner. I know that we are going to get invaded, but people are just automatically assuming that what is happening is going to alter in such a way as that it will affect everything.

Never once has it been confirmed that LA will be destroyed, or even altered at all as a result of Scarlett’s attack…. It could be, but we just don’t know.

TLDR; Hold your horses before you make an kitten out of you and me.

eleshazar.6902:

I keep wondering why people think that LA is going away on account of this update, or is being changed in such a drastic manner. I know that we are going to get invaded, but people are just automatically assuming that what is happening is going to alter in such a way as that it will affect everything.

Never once has it been confirmed that LA will be destroyed, or even altered at all as a result of Scarlett’s attack…. It could be, but we just don’t know.

TLDR; Hold your horses before you make an kitten out of you and me.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/02/11/prepare-to-escape-from-lions-arch-in-guild-wars-2s-next-conten/

This is why people think that.

eleshazar.6902:

I keep wondering why people think that LA is going away on account of this update, or is being changed in such a drastic manner. I know that we are going to get invaded, but people are just automatically assuming that what is happening is going to alter in such a way as that it will affect everything.

Never once has it been confirmed that LA will be destroyed, or even altered at all as a result of Scarlett’s attack…. It could be, but we just don’t know.

TLDR; Hold your horses before you make an kitten out of you and me.

I understand. But it’s also understandable that people are thinking of the possibility of something actually happening in a living story that affects the game.

People are just dreaming. Let them sleep.

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Nothing about LS is worth this kind of lore and continuity loss.

I couldn’t disagree more.

They’re mail.

Mail, not exactly real-time NPC dialogue.

I’m quite curious how “Living” will this World turn out to be by the end of Season 1.
If even half of the stuff you expect from this update gets implemented, i’ll be impressed.

Avascar.9237:

They’re mail.

Mail, not exactly real-time NPC dialogue.

There is more real time npc dialog than mail actually. I get that people don’t care, why not just state that? Furthermore, how does it being Mail invalidate it?

I’m betting that Anet knows that people don’t care as well. Too bad.

All of the hype about the “new” things they have done which were not new at all, but this depth of NPC trade infrastructure is something I’ve never seen done in any MMO, much less so integrated and so well done. It explained and supported the very premise of LA very well and did so much more than plunking an NPC city down and declaring “here be trade, yaar”

But ok, scrap it all. No one cares. Most are positive they “might” get a new back item which ofc far outweighs any loss of continuity or disconnected lore in game. Jeez, there might even be a Mini!!!! With particle effects!!!

We shall see. I hope they get it right and get every miniscule detail in place from the actual siege/battle/take-over to the most remote Lionguard Haven. In the first patch. The second, at latest.

If they dont, trully the only reason for Living Story will be the archivement point farm and the rewards that get outdated a month after, when the new LS update comes with a new reward of the same type. That would be a shame.

Indeed, the amount of dialogue isn’t too huge, and ctrl + F should help finding all the relevant dialogues quick.

It would be more interesting to see what all the lionguards around the world are going to do. Are they all being recalled?? with only essential personal in the forts?? or are they going to keep protecting traderoutes to something else then Lion’s Arch. The main task of the lionguard is to defend the city and the people in it.

Don’t worry. Lion’s Arch has survived the Charr, the White Mantle, the Mursaat, the Undead, the Karka and the Elder Dragons. All of those were more of a threat than Scarlet ever was (even written as poorly as Angel McCoy did, Scarlet’s still a minor villan).

Why wouldn’t they survive a poorly written pot plant? It would be an insult to all guild wars lore.

There are really only two options.

1. The living story is in fact living and makes permanent changes to the world. LA is blown up and reduced to a pile of rubble and becomes a very different zone forever.

2. The living story is not actually living, and just a few buildings are burned down and the city is repaired in a few months. LS is a failure and the game is screwed.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

There are really only two options.

1. The living story is in fact living and makes permanent changes to the world. LA is blown up and reduced to a pile of rubble and becomes a very different zone forever.

Not zone. Zones. Major changes would be necessary for at least 3 more zones, with tweak to few more (and i don’t count here mere text changes).

Dialogue had a low priority throughout Living Story, it seems. I expect that stuff to still be around even if LA is permanently changed, though it’s also quite likely LA will end up still being a functional city just with some different geography (needing no real change to that kind of NPC fluff).

I reported various text and dialog tree errors in the personal story early on, including some rather exceptionally bad punctuation and grammar in some cases, and they were mostly, if not entirely, still there months later, so I don’t think they care that much about NPC dialog to be quite honest.

It wouldn’t necessarily be a contradiction if the NPC text is not all resolved in the first patch. For remote Lionguard installations (e.g. Caledon), it could take some time for reputable info to be delivered. This buys time until the second patch at least.

Even then, you could explain away some of the inconsistencies by saying that the Lionguard are keeping trade routes clear in an effort to provide supplies to the resistance against Scarlet’s invasion (assuming there is a sufficient resistance). This could buy another patch, up to the end of LS season 1.

After that though, things will start to fall apart without the sweeping changes mentioned in this thread. Unless, of course, our plucky heroes manage to save a part of LA and a rebuilding effort is underway….

One or more of the hearts in Kessex Hills have been changed to be based around the fallen Nightmare Tower instead of what they previously were, and the events in the area have been changed / added across the board. Most players may not have noticed the changes to the hearts yet because of already having completed them long ago. Just illustrates that Anet is perfectly capable and willing to change old content around new changes to the world.

The destruction of Lion’s Arch wouldn’t impact the presence of Lion Guards; their work would only become more important, with forays into the ruined city becoming their daily reality. Some universal changes to Lion Guard outposts are entirely possible — look at how ANet changed the landscape with the Nightmare blossom (or whatever they’re called) events.

Many of the events involving Lion’s Arch (ie, caravans etc) could so easily be modified to military caravans instead of generic goods / merchants. Others could simply be removed; it’s not like they’d be missed, with all the new events taking place in the region anyway.

It doesn’t seem like it would be unrealistic to expect these changes. They’re not really as monumental as it seems.

Fire and brimstone coming down from the sky! Rivers and seas boiling!
Forty years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes!
The dead rising from the grave!
Human sacrifice! Dogs and cats living together…
Mass hysteria!

Elricht Kaltwind.8796:

The destruction of Lion’s Arch wouldn’t impact the presence of Lion Guards;

It’s like saying the destruction of USA would not impact their oversea bases.

Lionguards are funded and supported by LA. The money and resources for that come from the trade and likely surrounding areas under LA protection (which not only would disappear – the whole area would turn into a danger zone overnight). Once the city is gone, not only the supply routes will get cut, but the money and supply itself will disappear. Yeah, some of the keeps may manage to hold on for a while, but longterm that will not last. Even if some of the keeps would remain staffed, they could only do so by finding a different patron (…Scarlet? She doesn’t seem to have any resource problems) or by going completely rogue (thus creating another pirate haven).

Astralporing.1957:

Elricht Kaltwind.8796:

The destruction of Lion’s Arch wouldn’t impact the presence of Lion Guards;

It’s like saying the destruction of USA would not impact their oversea bases.

Lionguards are funded and supported by LA. The money and resources for that come from the trade and likely surrounding areas under LA protection (which not only would disappear – the whole area would turn into a danger zone overnight). Once the city is gone, not only the supply routes will get cut, but the money and supply itself will disappear. Yeah, some of the keeps may manage to hold on for a while, but longterm that will not last. Even if some of the keeps would remain staffed, they could only do so by finding a different patron (…Scarlet? She doesn’t seem to have any resource problems) or by going completely rogue (thus creating another pirate haven).

But the majority of people in Tyria also seem to have a sense of duty, honour and loyalty, so the assertion that they couldn’t continue to exist without a paycheque is not really a strong position.

Long-term, fine, it would definitely impact things. But we’re talking about very short-term, like as in, the next two weeks. We have no idea what changes will come beyond that, the next chapter of the living story could deal with that very matter, so we can only speculate what would happen to the Lion Guard long-term once we know what’s going to happen next.

Just confirmed this. The Lionguard Havens’ NPC’s are acting like everything is hunky dory in Lion’s Arch. Apparently nobody got around to telling them.

I attached a screen.

I was standing around Rata Sum the other day when a couple NPCs started talking, with one saying she was off to the market in Lion’s Arch for the day… boy I bet she was surprised when she arrived.

The other thing that bugs me is the talk of “trade routes”, and having to escort merchants on routes between cities… are they unable to use the waypoints like everyone else for some reason?

This is probably a nonissue not worth worrying about. Lion’s Arch may be rebuilt into the once grand city it was.

all of you know that cities in generall can still act like before despite beeing turned into rubble right? because if the lionguard refers to lions arch then its mroe to its goverment rather then the actual city. because a city in itself does not trade, the goverment does. the goverment of LA is the captains council. they do the trading, they handle the legel things.
also it´s even more important now that the lionguard and the gioverment of LA get the supplies from the hearts quests all over the world. they need to strike back. thats why evon ended up a supply deputiy.