Guild Wars 2

Why am I dealing with a charr, in a charr city, to work on a Norn Problem?

Why is the Norn leadership and Capitol constantly ignored save a few references to Destiny’s Failures. What is Knut Whitebear doing? collecting worms?

I get it, this is now “one big happy family tyria” but Norn should remain Norn, and deal with Norn problems as Norn.

Because Braham is one bear paw short of a full totem, that’s why.

He was running around trying to find help. The Norn wouldn’t help him either.

Just be glad you are not a Charr! We are not only have to speak to your Norn but our representative was pulled out of the generic anime hat.

Yeah… dealing with “Norn problems as Norn” worked so well against Jormag didnt it?

EverythingXen.1835:

Yeah… dealing with “Norn problems as Norn” worked so well against Jormag didnt it?

Excuse me, what part of the “personal” storyline involves dealing with Jormag, which is exactly what Norn characters should have been doing.

More canned content. As done with flame and frost as I am with the Legend of Trahearne.

If you’d all just gone to the Pale Tree for help, this’d all be solved by now. Silly meat people.

It… tells you why in the dialogue. It’s pretty much the first thing Braham explains to you when you talk to him. Do you people just skip all the text to get back to bashing skulls or something?

ikittenuma.7021:

If you’d all just gone to the Pale Tree for help, this’d all be solved by now. Silly meat people.

I respect Sylvari, but I think Trahearne has done enough for us already. Lets just keep him where he is for now, please. I beg of you.

Geez, people will complain about anything.

Do you read books and watch movies the same way? What is it that destroys people’s ability to simply enjoy a story without the constant critiquing and back-seat editing?

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Why am I dealing with a charr, in a charr city, to work on a Norn Problem?

Why is the Norn leadership and Capitol constantly ignored save a few references to Destiny’s Failures. What is Knut Whitebear doing? collecting worms?

I get it, this is now “one big happy family tyria” but Norn should remain Norn, and deal with Norn problems as Norn.

Well… see Knut Whitebear is not the leader of the Norn because Norn’s have no leaders. He and his Wolfborn technically do not have authority beyond Hoelbrek. Norn are independent individuals. If you are able to build and protect a homestead, you have authority over the homestead. Knut Whitebear’s “homestead” is now a major city and thus he would be largely regarded at the most influential of the homestead owners but he doesn’t have the authority or the responsibility of, for example, Queen Jenna. Knut Whitebear is the Master of the Lodge of the Hoelbrek, he is under no obligations to help anyone outside of Hoelbrek. He is under every obligation to fight to the death to protect Hoelbrek and all who seek his shelter within Hoelbrek but outside of it… nope!

So yeah, it wouldn’t make sense for Humans, Asura, Charr or Sylvari to seek help with other races before trying their own government but that’s because Humans, Asura, Charr and Sylvari HAVE governments. Even the Soundless Sylvari would look to the Grove first before trying someone else. But Norn, they have to hierarchy to look towards and no homestead is under obligations to help another homestead. It’s just a very, very differently set-up culture.

Braham explained this in the quests. He asked the charr first because he had personal issues with some of the norn and wanted to avoid dealing with them if possible. The anchor for this part of the story is Braham and his story led him to the charr before the norn.

It’s one of the things which increases the importance of the player in the story. We choose to ally with him regardless of what the norn or charr are doing. We are heroes, not one in an army of many.

Braham tells you the whole story. Go back to the Black Citadel and click on the “instant recap” NPC and he will answer all your questions.

If you actually did the living story, you go visit knut whitebear…. idk what you are ranting about.

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

EverythingXen.1835:

Yeah… dealing with “Norn problems as Norn” worked so well against Jormag didnt it?

Excuse me, what part of the “personal” storyline involves dealing with Jormag, which is exactly what Norn characters should have been doing.

More canned content. As done with flame and frost as I am with the Legend of Trahearne.

You complained why the Norn arent dealing with the Molten Alliance themselves. It’s not my fault your chosen race has a history of failure and hubris. At least one of them is smart enough to know they need help, even if your Norn isnt.

Take your dead horse complaints about personal story to the right forum.

EverythingXen.1835:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

EverythingXen.1835:

Yeah… dealing with “Norn problems as Norn” worked so well against Jormag didnt it?

Excuse me, what part of the “personal” storyline involves dealing with Jormag, which is exactly what Norn characters should have been doing.

More canned content. As done with flame and frost as I am with the Legend of Trahearne.

You complained why the Norn arent dealing with the Molten Alliance themselves. It’s not my fault your chosen race has a history of failure and hubris. At least one of them is smart enough to know they need help, even if your Norn isnt.

Take your dead horse complaints about personal story to the right forum.

Failure and Hubris. Ok. The only race that the Charr respected enough not to overrun. The race that didn’t destroy its own capitol in a fit of rage. The race that was not driven out of its home by destroyers long before the dragons. Oh, Ok.

Fact remains that this whining little boy lacked the courage and respect to rally Norn to him, for the hunt if nothing else. He is a weak, pitiful character. Making him Eir’s long lost really didn’t help. Using that as an excuse not to turn to his own people was lame.

And the Svanir? They have no aspirations for the lands the Alliance are trying to take? They just going to sit around? They are a nonfactor?

Not up to GW1 storytelling, not by a mile.

Braham did nothing re the animal spirits, no asking for guidance, no shaman, nothing. We helped Jora .. because Bear told her to ask us.

Knut’s excuse. My wolfguard is spread too thin. That is a Krytan excuse, not Norn. When did the Norn become a nation of cowering krytan peasants? When did they become simple hunters, farmers, peasants unable to protect themselves? “Norn do not need Armies” as Jora said. So why did little Braham run off to the nearest Military command?

Eir’s reaction? No outrage, no sympathy, no offer to help..you need to stay here in Hoelbrak as her only response? What? Really?

From the “Movement of the World”
“Many expected the initial Charr expansion through northern Tyria to become a tide of blood that would crash upon the Shiverpeaks, drowning Charr and Norn alike. The reality proved different. When the Charr reached the foothills, the Norn drove them back with a single crushing blow, completely decimating every warband sent against them. "

And now, the race that did this, does nothing about this invasion but run.

I did the story. I know what was said. Knowing it doesn’t make it palatable.

It also makes a lot more sense that our characters are involved in both stories this way. It would be a bit too much of a coincidence if we went to see Rytlock right at the time he was giving Rox her orders AND walked into Hoelbrak just as Braham was asking Knut for help.

But like Tinni said the norn don’t have a government, each homestead is self-governed and independant. They get to make up their own rules, and it’s pretty unlikely those rules would include helpling other homesteads whose leaders have had a massive falling out with respected members of their community.

So Braham looked at his situation – he’s got a bunch of small homesteads who, if they aren’t already, will soon be as badly off as his and can’t afford to leave their own homes undefended to help; he’s got a big settlement (Hoelbrak) who have the ability to help him but no desire to do so, and also more than enough of their own problems with the influx of refugees on top of the usual issues. Or he’s got another big “homestead” full of trained warriors who are also facing this threat and who don’t have any reason to hate him.

Which of those looks like the best choice to you?

Danikat.8537:

It also makes a lot more sense that our characters are involved in both stories this way. It would be a bit too much of a coincidence if we went to see Rytlock right at the time he was giving Rox her orders AND walked into Hoelbrak just as Braham was asking Knut for help.

But like Tinni said the norn don’t have a government, each homestead is self-governed and independant. They get to make up their own rules, and it’s pretty unlikely those rules would include helpling other homesteads whose leaders have had a massive falling out with respected members of their community.

So Braham looked at his situation – he’s got a bunch of small homesteads who, if they aren’t already, will soon be as badly off as his and can’t afford to leave their own homes undefended to help; he’s got a big settlement (Hoelbrak) who have the ability to help him but no desire to do so, and also more than enough of their own problems with the influx of refugees on top of the usual issues. Or he’s got another big “homestead” full of trained warriors who are also facing this threat and who don’t have any reason to hate him.

Which of those looks like the best choice to you?

I don’t know. I had never set foot in the Black Citadel, in spite of having 4 level 80 Characters, and not much reason to ever do so. Made no sense, to me, to be conveniently lounging in Rytlocks office, and a lot of sense for me to be in Hoelbrak.

Braham going to Rytlock first was unnecessary in my opinion, and added nothing.

The start of both quests did not have to be conjoined in the same location, and to be picky, happened in separate locations implying I had nothing to do but follow Rytlock around and eavesdrop on him, and he was fine with it.

Using the same logic, players playing asura, sylvari and human characters should just skip the whole Flame and Frost content because is none of their business?

He is Eir’s son and he was told that Rytlock could help since he was part of Destiny’s Edge. He is then told that Rytlock will not help him and then he checks in with the norn. The norn won’t help him and Eir tells him to stay there. He takes it upon himself to save his people.

the bad guys are flame legion (charr) so obviously you go to the good charr first to sort out their mess, before you call in the big boys to lay the smack down!!!!!

Sharkinu.8096:

Using the same logic, players playing asura, sylvari and human characters should just skip the whole Flame and Frost content because is none of their business?

I don’t know about the other orders, but the Vigil PCs at least has a reason to be involved. XD Though, I don’t know how much of it is General Almora being, “THESE ARE MY PEOPLE. I MUST HELP THEM.” But I don’t know about the others, yet.

“Hello Player.. you have been invited to hang around in Rytlocks offices to observe a chance meeting you have no foreknowledge of. Act Surprised.”

This is good storytelling? Who, of any race, had a logical reason to even BE in that location save being told to observe a “random” encounter.

There could have been many ways to get players there. Logical, well written ways.

Even personalized a bit. Rytlock to Charr.. I need your assistance in a small manner, be at my Office bla bla bla. Rytlock to Player…. Tag along with this Cub, let me know how she handles herself. etc etc.

Eir sends Norn a message. Meet me at Knut’s Loft, we need to discuss Refugee issues. Bam, Son barges in. After all, Eir is our pal right?? Yet she doesn’t even know us.
Eir to Player.. Please, talk to him, help him… he won’t accept it from me.. nor would it end well.. ect ect.

Starters could have been generic for the other races. Meet x at x to discuss Refugee matters.. a reason to be there.. and observe the meetings. Perhaps a message from your first Mentor, requesting you to talk to Rytlock, Knut, re the refugee and invasion issues, and boom, you happen to be in the right place to catch the dialogs.

Sorry, FanClub, this is poor writing, poor storytelling, and far below GW1 storytelling.

He said it himself: Norn have no armies.
If an army comes at your house, you call for an army to fight it.

And the citadel is actually closer than Hoealbrak, and easier to access.

MithranArkanere.8957:

He said it himself: Norn have no armies.
If an army comes at your house, you call for an army to fight it.

And the citadel is actually closer than Hoealbrak, and easier to access.

Norn do not NEED armies. Or.. didn’t. What army did they call to do the following?

From the “Movement of the World”
“Many expected the initial Charr expansion through northern Tyria to become a tide of blood that would crash upon the Shiverpeaks, drowning Charr and Norn alike. The reality proved different. When the Charr reached the foothills, the Norn drove them back with a single crushing blow, completely decimating every warband sent against them. "

Yeah, that whole no army thing went really well when Jormag rose. I am sure all the Norn that survived that would agree with you, the Norn don’t need help from anyone and can do everything.

Might I suggest you read up a bit on Norn history? Specifically the parts about them being totally owned by Jormag and his minions. ( both before GW2 and during GW1 or Primordus minions for that matter.)

Is it really that hard to read the non spoken dialog. Most of your questions would be answered if you did.

Firstly, Braham approaches Rytlock first because he doesnt want to go to Hoelbrak cause he wants to avoid meeting Eir. He and her dont get on well.

Secondly, the Norn are struggling for the same reason the Charr are. The Molten Alliance is fighting them with hit and run tactics and have been only attacking vunerable targets and in force. Norn are strong but not invincable. They lack a target to strike back against. At this point they can only fight back after taking a hit.

Thirdly, Knut, like Smolder, is expecting the Molten Alliance to be biulding up to an attack on Hoelbrak. He wants to be sure he has enough forces there to fight them off.

Fourth, the people at Cragstead are sticking their heads out. If you listened to what Knut said, he said they should come to where they could be defended. They ignore the threat and so it bits them on the kitten Knut has his own issues to deal with. The steaders being stubborn and foolish.

Fifth, Braham is like 17. The guy is technically still a kid. Hes a very young man trying to protect his people from themselves.

Seriously, its amazing how much people have missed. Do people need everything spoonfed to them these days? Is it really that hard to be a little proactive to find out information?

Also, as for observing that chance meeting:
The whole Flame and Frost storyline was set up, storytelling-wise, by your race’s Destiny’s Edge member (who has, if you remember, served as some sort of a mentor to your character through your personal story) sending you a notice about the Bad Stuff happening in the north, urging you to go help out.
Now, being familiar with the members of Destiny’s Edge, it does actually make sense for you to check in with the command center in the area once in a while (instead of just running around the map looking for heads to bash in). And seeing as the Norn, as a whole, are much less organized than the charr, plus half of the threat stemming from Flamelegion Charr…well, logically speaking, you would be skulking around Rytlock’s offices from time to time.

While random encounters are not necesarrily a good way to tell a story, they are used often enough, so don’t act as if this was totally outrageous. I’m pretty sure we had some chance encounters over the course of GW1…

Frotee.2634:

Also, as for observing that chance meeting:
The whole Flame and Frost storyline was set up, storytelling-wise, by your race’s Destiny’s Edge member (who has, if you remember, served as some sort of a mentor to your character through your personal story) sending you a notice about the Bad Stuff happening in the north, urging you to go help out.
Now, being familiar with the members of Destiny’s Edge, it does actually make sense for you to check in with the command center in the area once in a while (instead of just running around the map looking for heads to bash in). And seeing as the Norn, as a whole, are much less organized than the charr, plus half of the threat stemming from Flamelegion Charr…well, logically speaking, you would be skulking around Rytlock’s offices from time to time.

While random encounters are not necesarrily a good way to tell a story, they are used often enough, so don’t act as if this was totally outrageous. I’m pretty sure we had some chance encounters over the course of GW1…

My Mentor is Eir.. you know, the one that was oblivious to my presence at the meeting, and I wasn’t allowed to talk to.

I’m Vigil. I have nothing to do with the remnants of Destiny’s Edge, beyond Eir. I have absolutly no reason or inclination to lounge around in Rytlocks office or have anything to do with him, and so far in game, have not. My character is not familiar with Destiny’s Edge beyond some overblown reputation. I did not wander about trying to put them back together, there were other, more pressing matters.

But I’m done. I’m sure the fanclub has 50 plus reasons why Eir ignores all of her Norn students, She’s Blind, and hiding it. Seeing her son brought on Temporary Amnesia. She never really liked us, it was just a job. Garn was Yakking on the carpet and distracted her. We forgot our nametag. etc etc.

If Scotty had beamed Braham in you all would have 50 reasons to rationalize that too.

lordkrall.7241:

Yeah, that whole no army thing went really well when Jormag rose. I am sure all the Norn that survived that would agree with you, the Norn don’t need help from anyone and can do everything.

Might I suggest you read up a bit on Norn history? Specifically the parts about them being totally owned by Jormag and his minions. ( both before GW2 and during GW1 or Primordus minions for that matter.)

I would suggest the same. In GW1 Jora, Norn, and a Player killed the sole minion of Jormag, if you want to call Svanir that. What part of GW1 shows Norn doing anything but helping kill Destroyers? What part of GW1 shows Norn even having trouble with them prior to being conned into helping fight them?

Who successfully resisted the Dragons? The Charr Armies? The Corsairs? Anyone, when they Rose? This story isn’t about dragons BTW. Just pointing that out.

whatever. Bye, Fan Club.

Danikat.8537:

It also makes a lot more sense that our characters are involved in both stories this way. It would be a bit too much of a coincidence if we went to see Rytlock right at the time he was giving Rox her orders AND walked into Hoelbrak just as Braham was asking Knut for help.

But like Tinni said the norn don’t have a government, each homestead is self-governed and independant. They get to make up their own rules, and it’s pretty unlikely those rules would include helpling other homesteads whose leaders have had a massive falling out with respected members of their community.

So Braham looked at his situation – he’s got a bunch of small homesteads who, if they aren’t already, will soon be as badly off as his and can’t afford to leave their own homes undefended to help; he’s got a big settlement (Hoelbrak) who have the ability to help him but no desire to do so, and also more than enough of their own problems with the influx of refugees on top of the usual issues. Or he’s got another big “homestead” full of trained warriors who are also facing this threat and who don’t have any reason to hate him.

Which of those looks like the best choice to you?

To get the little Asuran thief that’s been evesdropping on this whole thing to go with him and the two of you clear the place of problems all by yourselves, of course!
Silly bookahs… ;-)

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Frotee.2634:

Also, as for observing that chance meeting:
The whole Flame and Frost storyline was set up, storytelling-wise, by your race’s Destiny’s Edge member (who has, if you remember, served as some sort of a mentor to your character through your personal story) sending you a notice about the Bad Stuff happening in the north, urging you to go help out.
Now, being familiar with the members of Destiny’s Edge, it does actually make sense for you to check in with the command center in the area once in a while (instead of just running around the map looking for heads to bash in). And seeing as the Norn, as a whole, are much less organized than the charr, plus half of the threat stemming from Flamelegion Charr…well, logically speaking, you would be skulking around Rytlock’s offices from time to time.

While random encounters are not necesarrily a good way to tell a story, they are used often enough, so don’t act as if this was totally outrageous. I’m pretty sure we had some chance encounters over the course of GW1…

My Mentor is Eir.. you know, the one that was oblivious to my presence at the meeting, and I wasn’t allowed to talk to.

I’m Vigil. I have nothing to do with the remnants of Destiny’s Edge, beyond Eir. I have absolutly no reason or inclination to lounge around in Rytlocks office or have anything to do with him, and so far in game, have not. My character is not familiar with Destiny’s Edge beyond some overblown reputation. I did not wander about trying to put them back together, there were other, more pressing matters.

But I’m done. I’m sure the fanclub has 50 plus reasons why Eir ignores all of her Norn students, She’s Blind, and hiding it. Seeing her son brought on Temporary Amnesia. She never really liked us, it was just a job. Garn was Yakking on the carpet and distracted her. We forgot our nametag. etc etc.

If Scotty had beamed Braham in you all would have 50 reasons to rationalize that too.

Wow, so you’re just a-okay disregarding the Tribute of an entire legion just because he’s not your race? I mean, yeah, you don’t have to care about the prime minister or president of a country across the ocean that doesn’t concern you…but that doesn’t make them any less important to the world.

Whatever others are doing to rationalize the story for you, you’re going the opposite direction and trying to rationalize your flawed perspective. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

PS: And people cry about how the Asura were usually the main focus behind holiday events and not other races….probably because those so gung-ho about their chosen race do this kind of thing. Howling about the lore or the appearance not lining up with their perspective or whatever.

Starting to thing the whole frost and flame thing would have been better with Inquest+Dredge and the main 2 characters Asura. Then no one would complain!

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Frotee.2634:

Also, as for observing that chance meeting:
The whole Flame and Frost storyline was set up, storytelling-wise, by your race’s Destiny’s Edge member (who has, if you remember, served as some sort of a mentor to your character through your personal story) sending you a notice about the Bad Stuff happening in the north, urging you to go help out.
Now, being familiar with the members of Destiny’s Edge, it does actually make sense for you to check in with the command center in the area once in a while (instead of just running around the map looking for heads to bash in). And seeing as the Norn, as a whole, are much less organized than the charr, plus half of the threat stemming from Flamelegion Charr…well, logically speaking, you would be skulking around Rytlock’s offices from time to time.

While random encounters are not necesarrily a good way to tell a story, they are used often enough, so don’t act as if this was totally outrageous. I’m pretty sure we had some chance encounters over the course of GW1…

My Mentor is Eir.. you know, the one that was oblivious to my presence at the meeting, and I wasn’t allowed to talk to.

I’m Vigil. I have nothing to do with the remnants of Destiny’s Edge, beyond Eir. I have absolutly no reason or inclination to lounge around in Rytlocks office or have anything to do with him, and so far in game, have not. My character is not familiar with Destiny’s Edge beyond some overblown reputation. I did not wander about trying to put them back together, there were other, more pressing matters.

But I’m done. I’m sure the fanclub has 50 plus reasons why Eir ignores all of her Norn students, She’s Blind, and hiding it. Seeing her son brought on Temporary Amnesia. She never really liked us, it was just a job. Garn was Yakking on the carpet and distracted her. We forgot our nametag. etc etc.

If Scotty had beamed Braham in you all would have 50 reasons to rationalize that too.

Ah…so you didn’t complete your personal story or do the story-mode dungeons? Sorry, I kinda would have expected that, seeing as you’re so adamant about lore and story.
Also, did you miss that I talked about ‘lougning around Rytlocks office’ in terms of participating the Flame and Frost after receiving notice of the Bad Stuff happening in Norn & Charr territory? Whatever, you’re obviosly set on disliking how this living story installment played out. Go be dissappointed then.
I’d rather concentrate on the positive aspects of, well, pretty much anything instead of letting negligible negatives get me down, but we can’t all be like that