Guild Wars 2

I remember this post from 9 months ago about Liadri:

Zaeon.3846:

I think this content have alienated those who aren’t lucky/aren’t rich/don’t have as much free time.

The reason it stood out for me is that he hadn’t beaten Liadri at that time and was complaining about the inclusion of the Gauntlet.

Later he updated his post:

Zaeon.3846:

I finally got it! All the stars alligned in the right moments. All my phantasmal warden casted at the right moment both took away 80% of Liadri’s hp. And an orb spawned in the right time to rally me up!

He then heavily edited his post so that it talked about the issues of camera angles etc. But one thing was clear…..

…..he was happy or perhaps more specifically, satisfied with himself.

What he didn’t understand and what some people this time around still don’t understand is that it’s a learn to play issue. That means understanding your profession and using it as efficiently as possible.

People can take a hard look at themselves and L2P or walk away and enjoy some of the other content that has been made. However some stand by the mantra ‘I play how I want to play’ and cling to it because it’s their lifeline when people point out their builds are not very good and it’s in their interests to learn to play better.

9 months ago I L2P my professions better fighting in the Gauntlet. It was frustrating but ultimately the SINGLE MOST satisfying piece of content I’ve experienced by ANet.

If your unhappy with it and can’t let yourself learn from it, don’t play it. But don’t QQ about your inability because there are those of us that would like to see more of this content.

We don’t want more boring zerg fights against bosses that are sponges for damage, because there’s nothing skillful about that……

…but for some there’s no L2P either.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/jubilee/Liadri-alienates-a-lot-of-gw2-players/first

FearedbytheGods.8617:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/jubilee/Liadri-alienates-a-lot-of-gw2-players/first

nice qqing thread. In this year we have another one: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/livingworld/fotfw/Liadri-and-RAGE/
)

I killed Liadri after 18 tries, of 19. But for Liadri you cannot make a mistake, it has to be perfect and that is the issue. You can make mistakes. There are some white portals at a very bad spot too. Just on the edge and sometimes the illusion would kill you so it was a bit harder to lead it in. Sometimes the camera angle sucks, but then again if everything goes perfect it’s a cat in the bag.

Meemai.7523:

I killed Liadri after 18 tries, of 19. But for Liadri you cannot make a mistake, it has to be perfect and that is the issue. You can make mistakes. There are some white portals at a very bad spot too. Just on the edge and sometimes the illusion would kill you so it was a bit harder to lead it in. Sometimes the camera angle sucks, but then again if everything goes perfect it’s a cat in the bag.

Liadri allows you to make loads of mistakes, it’s nowhere near for you to make it a perfect fight.

Everything spawns exactly the same way, the same pattern, all the time. you just have to remember where the kitten is placed, really.

I was convinced that beating her is L2P last year when Wethospu posted his zerker video in which he made killing her look like swatting a fly.

While the essence of your elaborations is true, that is that the gauntlet is a good idea to introduce some exciting L2P to the game, you are painting some details far too positively.

First of all, the whole game is L2P and that is what makes it a lot better than all the other lame-kitten gear-grind-dps-check MMOs out there. Especially because it has a so very well made learning curve, so that it is exciting to learn for players of very distinct level of learning capability. And the Gauntlet is the high end up the learning curve of the game.

On the other hand the gauntlet has some major issues, making it in many aspects not L2P but something else.

First of all there is a major technical issue with this. Last year we all kinds of problems with player hardware/ISP-quality checking by super-mega-zergs trampling down your FPS/lagging you out by just passing below your arena cage. While the FPS issue does not seem to be around this time, really bad lag spikes eventually occur for unknown reason.
Another really unfortunate technical detail is the blinding overbright effect. While I personally believe this one of Liadri’s move is pretty cheap artificial difficulty and totally uneeded to start with, there is this silly issue that it will really kill people already struggling with hardware limitations. On the other hand every player can just opt to simply switch this effect off by going to the graphics options and turn off “post-processing” effects. Messing with the game client config MUST never change game difficulty whatsoever !! Either take it out or make it work on minimal hardware similarly.
Also not all the arenas are created equally, especially the white whirls make it obvious, while in some arenas you can easily stand between the whirls close to the edge of the arena and the actual arena wall and have ample space to maneuver, in other arenas these whirls do clip with the arena boundary, so can’t stand behind when luring shades to it.
Finally the camera. While definitely it was a good choice to take out the visible dome ceiling, this does not fix the camera while inside the arena. The camera will still collide with the plethora of invisible walls encompassing the arena to keep outsiders from interacting. Though that would have been some kind of fun, if the crowd could help, yet I know this would defeat the idea of the 1 vs Boss arena.

Some things also are not actually L2P, but simple memorization.
For example in Liadri fight the pattern for Shadowfall and the bright twirls seems to be a totally static arrangement. Which I consider somewhat unfortunate from a challenge point of view. Phase 1 thus goes into learning one stupid pattern, instead of learning the machanic of a boss move and work out a plan to work with it dynamically. Therefore we now see almost any class with almost any strategy doing Phase 1 almost the same way, if they know what they are doing, because there simply is one fastest route to get 3 lights on her to advance to P2.

Also the fights are not a realiably identical as some here stated.
For example in the Liadri fight, the Cosmic orbs do not follow a realiable pattern. They may spawn very favorable for you or simply void your chance.
So while the other part of the fight seems to be made as a game of memory, this part can hit you like a lottery. Orbs may save you after doing something bad and orbs may also void all you successful and skillful play, if they spawn in an unfortunate moment at an unfortunate location, you won’t know. Keep fingers crossed, you won’t get caught in a situation where the orb spawn leaves you with no option.
There are situations where an orb can leave you with this:
1) Cannot kill orb becaus it is out of reach.
2) Pulled by orb will down you, but you won’t get a chance to rally because a shade is already nearby.
That would be RNG, not L2P.

tbc.. nect post, because of post length limit

…continued from previous post

Finally the gauntlet also has some kind of unneccessary Gear-check. This is mostly because of the very limited arena time. Depending on opponent your class strategy and so on, your actual gear will make significant difference.
While I think making people reconsider their class builds and strategies is a good L2P challenge feature, it is NOT any fun introducing gear checks. While making it possible to factor in gear into your strategy is fun, it is NOT fun to simply make certain gear almost not viable. This is especially true for DPS-checking with time limits !
Designers should consider when making encounters with timers, that mechanics and/or timer length will somewhat make sure the time limit does not make it a DPS/gear-check.
Although we have unfortunatly seen these timer/DPS/gear-check introduced once and again in GW2.
A good sample for an encounter with a timed phase check that does NOT check gear/DPS would be the frozen phase in the Blob-Fight of the Ahn’Qiraj-Raid.
This phase does not check gear or DPS, instead it checks whether everyone in the Raid has learned to play and can actually whip out a basic melee damage weapon an auto-attack the thing often enough within the time limit. While that sounds just too silly for a mechanic, it actually has made a surprisingly large amount of raid groups fail, illustrating how deceiving beating other gear-check encounters can be concerning determining your personal state in the actual L2P game.

I don’t think it’s a gear check. I think the Gauntlet as a whole makes you really evaluate play-styles and builds on a case by case basis. You should be swapping utilities and weapons pretty often during regular play. You should also be aware of your Traits and how they work with your group. Most players probably don’t do this and say it’s ‘elitist’ or for ‘optimized runs’.

The Gauntlet takes it a step further and makes you check your traits as a solo player. I think it’s great content. And no, it isn’t a gear check. I did Liadri with half green gear/half gold gear so I could equip the runes I wanted for that particular fight.

I agree that it’s a L2P issue. If you’re not level 80 and don’t have exotics at least you will be at a disadvantage, but it’s small compared to your ability to play the game and your class.

That’s why I posted this last year:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/jubilee/Couldn-t-beat-Liadri-No-regrets/first#post2759587

I haven’t yet had time for more than a couple of attempts, which I used to remember the mechanics but I’ve got 156 tickets saved up and I’m really looking forward to seeing how I do against her this time around. I’m determined I will do it.

Danikat.8537:

I’m determined I will do it.

Nice Danikat and make sure the world knows!

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/livingworld/fotfw/The-Blazing-Light-Thread/first#post4050300

You post starts off as talking about what can only really be described as the philosophy of GW2. That is combat is dynamic, especially compared to other MMO’s, which I don’t disagreeing with. What you seem to be arguing is the ‘degree’ of skill learnt.

So in that sense its worth mentioning that Liadri’s degree of skill is much more than say killing the average centaur. Both of which can kill you, if you don’t show a degree of skill. One just more than other.

Inverse.2967:

Some things also are not actually L2P, but simple memorization.
For example in Liadri fight the pattern for Shadowfall and the bright twirls seems to be a totally static arrangement.

Elements like that are still in the vein of a learn to play issue. You have to be aware of it and therefore it places PRESSURE on your ability to use your profession. If your not aware of it, don’t memorise it, it affects your ability to perform. So knowing how to counter or work around memorised content is still L2P and once you HAVE memorised it, it’s still a dangerous obstacle.

Inverse.2967:

Also the fights are not a realiably identical as some here stated.
For example in the Liadri fight, the Cosmic orbs do not follow a realiable pattern. They may spawn very favorable for you or simply void your chance.
So while the other part of the fight seems to be made as a game of memory, this part can hit you like a lottery.

From about this point your posts start to look like its just being argumentative. You complain about memorised elements and in the next paragraph complain of random ones.

While you define it as ‘lottery’ which is REALLY feeding into the mindset of someone that’s not prepared to try it’s not considering what you DO KNOW. That is that they appear at a set time after one is eliminated. Therefore it plays back into the point about memorised events.

The fact that you KNOW that at a certain time the orb will reappear and MUST counter it makes it a L2P issue as far as the mechanics of the fight are concerned. The fact that WHERE it appears is testing your ability to see it quickly and respond. While its location and your situation that that time may help or hinder you is simply part of the mechanics that may or may not be over come depending on your ability, L2P. In any event it’s not some arbitrary event that you had no idea was coming.

KNOWING the best way to counter these mechanics is a L2P issue. The better and more optimised your profession is and in particular HOW YOU USE IT will see you victorious.

Saint has rebutted other pints in your post.

I’d just want to finish with the fact that you gave us a wall of text trying to state that its not L2P.

What kind of fighting mechanic would be L2P for you?

It’s definitely a L2P issue, anyone who realistically appraised the situation would know the same.

Meemai.7523:

But for Liadri you cannot make a mistake, it has to be perfect and that is the issue.

More or less, though sometimes it’s not down to you. My only problem with the Liadri fight are the orbs. 70% of my fails tend to be due to an orb spawning and pulling me just as her one-shot blackness descends. (the remaining 30% tend to be lack of dodges after she starts spamming her cripple!) So you do need to be perfect, but there’s still some luck involved when it comes to Orb spawn.

Sarie.1630:

Meemai.7523:

But for Liadri you cannot make a mistake, it has to be perfect and that is the issue.

More or less, though sometimes it’s not down to you. My only problem with the Liadri fight are the orbs. 70% of my fails tend to be due to an orb spawning and pulling me just as her one-shot blackness descends. (the remaining 30% tend to be lack of dodges after she starts spamming her cripple!) So you do need to be perfect, but there’s still some luck involved when it comes to Orb spawn.

Orbs spawn each 20 seconds, they take 2-3 seconds to drag you. Just carefully stop animations at second 18 and have a fast ranged skill ready by the time orb spawn to nuke it.

If luck is involved is only in the positioning of the orbs, but that wouldn’t be an issue as long as you are ready for it.

People whining about how other players need to stop whining are significantly worse than ones where people are just whining about their own issues.

Farzo.8410:

Liadri allows you to make loads of mistakes, it’s nowhere near for you to make it a perfect fight.

Everything spawns exactly the same way, the same pattern, all the time. you just have to remember where the kitten is placed, really.

Making loads of mistakes on Liadri will result in a painfull death. I agree with the OP, Liadri is hard, and u’ll learn ure class even better then before. I had to try her 20+ times, and i thought it was impossible to kill. But the moment u kill her, u feel so good about yourself.
The gauntlet has been 1 of the most fun event “parts” i’ve seen so far in gw2.

I died to her like 20 times then I finally just googled some one elses mesmer build and killed her on my next try. Still wasnt a walk in the park but it was very rewarding and thats the way the game should be. Challenge is good.

Liadri is as scripted as they come, its a fun and challenging fight because of its mulititude of mechanics woven into each other, but the orange circles that drop the dark kitten….the spawn areas of the visions and the rifts are all 99% the exact same….learn the patterns.

If people are still struggling perhaps this video might help out a little bit shameless but feel free not to look at it at all its that simple. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zj6q479uoew

There is not pattern for the orbs, though.