Guild Wars 2

This is in part because she is the very last boss of the Gauntlet so reaching her means you have defeated all previous challengers.

It’s easiest to show this by breaking down Liadra’s fight mechanics:

Invulnerable Until Condition Satisfied – Encountered in Suriel fight, to a lesser extent Masticus.

Kite mob to pool on floor – Encountered in Suriel fight.

Be aware of 4+ mobs – Encountered in Windcaller, Pirate Crew and Subject 7 fights.

Dodge roaming bombs/mobs – Encountered in Windcaller (tornados) and Subject 7 fights.

Avoid cripple/knockdown in mobility fight – Windercaller, Tyre and Strugar+Chomper fights.

Dodge slow moving aimed projectiles – Salazan fight

Getting 1-shot for standing in the wrong place – Halmi, Suriel, Salazan, Deadeye fights

Reach melee range of an object quickly – Suriel, Masticus, Deadeye and Strugar+Chomper

Liadra is probably intentionally designed as a culmination of all the things the Gauntlet has taught you so far. It’s meant to be hard. She is actually a good representation of a lot of interesting boss designs for the Gauntlet.

I suppose Anet is also trying to get us used to bad camera positioning for the duration of the game?

I suppose that they’re also trying to teach people with color blindness how to play as well?

I’m not even going to talk about the debate as to whether or not this game focuses too much on dodge rolls and DPS to solve all boss problems since the Gauntlet has too much design issues and bugs to be called a “good design”.

Bad camera angles. Especially with big characters.
Red circles hard to see.
Lag due to zerg below.
Orbs can’t be destroyed by some weapons.

Yeah, what great design.

Bad camera angles are nothing to do with the design of the boss itself. It’s a flaw in the design of the arena. The red circles aren’t that hard to see in my opinion. Maybe it could be a bit easier, that’s up to ANet to decide. Again, the zerg below is irrelevant to the design of the boss and to the intent of my post.

And the orb thing is most likely a bug seeing as ANet have addressed it and some ranged weapons can now hit it. Even if it weren’t a bug, I mentioned ‘Getting to melee range’ in my original post for a reason.

I’ve yet to see any real valid criticism for Liadra that isn’t to do with the camera, the zergs below or the cripple (which you should be avoiding/cleansing anyway).

the arena, however, is poorly designed.

camera pushed in by ceiling

floor holy and similar color to aoe rings

forced choice between maintaining a queue or waypointing after death or rather being dead dead when you fail (maybe the queue can be helpful or interesting to watch others… but seriously unhelpful nps)

an enemy zerg has jumped into your section!

post processing

an enemy player has glitched his way into your fight! now youre fighting 2 bosses! etc etc glitches

hmmm did i miss any? well that last one is more of a testing oversight than a design flaw….

ohhh i took too long typing this

Again, all valid criticisms but nothing to do with the boss fights themselves.

I am complimenting the mechanics of many of the boss fights, despite persisting issues with camera, frame rate and bugs.

Null.9743:

Bad camera angles are nothing to do with the design of the boss itself. It’s a flaw in the design of the arena. The red circles aren’t that hard to see in my opinion.

But these are. The fact some domes in the gauntlet have the white pools from Liadri spawn in the corner of the domes is already a bad design on the boss’ part. The red circles have been complained about the by the player base since the fractals (Bloomhunger). Some people are still having trouble seeing the circles even after they added a squiggly motion to them,

If you can’t see the red circles on Bloomhunger, maybe you should stop standing in the water. From what I remember it’s intentional that the circles only appear briefly so there’s some short term memory required to dodge. I guess if you’re hard of sight it can be a bit difficult but I’m not sure what can be done about that.

I’ll agree that it’s not good Liadra is easier to beat in the northern arenas than in others but this is again a criticism about the arena design and not about the mechanics of the fight itself.

Null.9743:

If you can’t see the red circles on Bloomhunger, maybe you should stop standing in the water. From what I remember it’s intentional that the circles only appear briefly so there’s some short term memory required to dodge. I guess if you’re hard of sight it can be a bit difficult but I’m not sure what can be done about that.

I’ll agree that it’s not good Liadra is easier to beat in the northern arenas than in others but this is again a criticism about the arena design and not about the mechanics of the fight itself.

No, circles didn’t appear at all before the patch. It’s by chance if they’re completely invisible or they appear. Now it’s just difficult to see since you have to zoom in.

OK. Let’s say I agree to your argument that issues in the arena design have no bearing in the Liadri fight whatsoever and are therefore invalid.

The fact that a Zerker warrior can cheese her after her invulnerability is down while other non-dps classes have a harder time is a poor design. Why? because almost everything 1-shots you anyway. The fight really does not change the forumula of what we’ve been seeing the focus of builds in this game already.

well after the first couple days, now that people have found most of the patterns to the fight, i see posts explaining there are patterns whenever i see posts qq’ing about chaos and 1 shots. so besides the cosmic orbs pulling you randomly, liadri doesnt have all that much bad design. but the fight as a whole definitely does, mostly because of things that arent liadri herself.

So what you’re saying Yujin is you want ANet to somehow design a boss that punishes bezerker classes like Warrior so it’s artificially harder for them, just because not every class has a burst DPS option?

Yeah maybe some classes can do it a bit faster. The classes are fairly unique. It’s very difficult to make 12 bosses which all 8 classes can defeat but I think they did a good job.

More lies. 1 hit kills, gimmicky invulnerability, time limits, not good design.

Null.9743:

So what you’re saying is you want ANet to somehow design a boss that punishes bezerker classes like Warrior so it’s artificially harder for them, just because not every class has a burst DPS option?

Yeah maybe some classes can do it a bit faster. It’s very difficult to make 12 bosses which all 8 classes can defeat but I think they did a kitten good job.

No, I’m saying to make a boss battle that rewards build diversity and multiple ways to actually beat a boss. The removal of the one-shots may help with this.

Nilkemia.8507:

More lies. 1 hit kills, gimmicky invulnerability, time limits, not good design.

It’s disrespectful to dismiss somebody’s referenced opinion as lies with no explanation as to why.

1 hit kills if you get hit by a predictable AoE or slow moving bombs, both relatively easy to dodge. If you’re getting 1 hit it’s because YOU, the player, made a mistake.

Invulnerability until you hit her three times with an item that fits neatly in to the fight mechanics.

Time limit could maybe be extended a little, fair point.

Also Yujin, if they make a boss that you can kill with multiple different builds and ways, it’s going to be incredibly easy to beat that boss. Their intent was to make a challenge. Liadra required you to balance DPS with survival and mobility like no other fight before it had.

@null

I realize that but take the Light up the Darkness achievement as an example. If had thrown 8 of those orbs, it shouldn’t just give her vulnerability but it should kill her if I threw 8 of them at her. There are many way in designing a difficult but fair boss but Liadri focuses way too much on that dodge dps aspect of the game.

Light up the Darkness is a bonus achievement designed specifically so that only the very best of the players., those who truly understand the Liadra fight, can beat it. If you’re running a high survival/mobility build rather than DPS then you should have little trouble getting all 8 orbs early in the fight leaving plenty of time to kill her through the vulnerability.

It doesn’t need a nerf. It needs coordination, practise and skill and if you have those things you’ll probably be able to do it.

That’s just an example on how there can be multiple ways of beating a boss since you asked.

I know, I was just showing how in that particular example any nerf so significant would be discouraging the skill challenge, instead making it very easy compared to what the devs intended.

The very criticisms you made towards Zerk Warriors could then be given to classes with very high mobility like thief if they could 8 Orb her very fast. Things aren’t so simple to fix.

Null.9743:

Nilkemia.8507:

More lies. 1 hit kills, gimmicky invulnerability, time limits, not good design.

It’s disrespectful to dismiss somebody’s referenced opinion as lies with no explanation as to why.

1 hit kills if you get hit by a predictable AoE or slow moving bombs, both relatively easy to dodge. If you’re getting 1 hit it’s because YOU, the player, made a mistake.

Invulnerability until you hit her three times with an item that fits neatly in to the fight mechanics.

Time limit could maybe be extended a little, fair point.

Also Yujin, if they make a boss that you can kill with multiple different builds and ways, it’s going to be incredibly easy to beat that boss. Their intent was to make a challenge. Liadra required you to balance DPS with survival and mobility like no other fight before it had.

Except for when you use the orb on her and it doesn’t actually work.

Coupled with the extremely likely scenario that when anet tested the fight they didn’t do it with a zerg of 100+ people just below it which drastically kills fps and adds the wonderful culling feature to some of the bombs. Also giving you some fantastic input lag.

Yeah, extremely well designed. QA doing a bang up job. “Well designed” are the last words a person should use to describe the Liadri fight, or rather, the entire Queens Gauntlet.

fellyn.5083:

Except for when you use the orb on her and it doesn’t actually work.

Coupled with the extremely likely scenario that when anet tested the fight they didn’t do it with a zerg of 100+ people just below it which drastically kills fps and adds the wonderful culling feature to some of the bombs. Also giving you some fantastic input lag.

Yeah, extremely well designed. QA doing a bang up job.

If the orb isn’t working on her, it’s probably because it expired because you took too long. If you’re taking that long to throw an orb at her, you likely won’t beat the time limit anyway. I believe they can also despawn if a mob walks over another pool of light spawning a new crystal.

And the FPS/zerg thing is again just due to poor arena placement which is little to do with the fight itself.

Null.9743:

fellyn.5083:

Except for when you use the orb on her and it doesn’t actually work.

Coupled with the extremely likely scenario that when anet tested the fight they didn’t do it with a zerg of 100+ people just below it which drastically kills fps and adds the wonderful culling feature to some of the bombs. Also giving you some fantastic input lag.

Yeah, extremely well designed. QA doing a bang up job.

If the orb isn’t working on her, it’s probably because it expired because you took too long. If you’re taking that long to throw an orb at her, you likely won’t beat the time limit anyway. I believe they can also despawn if a mob walks over another pool of light spawning a new crystal.

And the FPS/zerg thing is again just due to poor arena placement which is little to do with the fight itself.

No, I’m talking about when I put the green circle over her, push the 1 button, and nothing happens. Probably due to all the reasons I talked about above.

Do you continue holding the orb after you attempt to throw it? The orbs despawn very commonly if you leave it to long so it’s very possible it’s despawning in the moment you try to throw it.

Otherwise it might just be a lag issue. I’ve not seen any other complaints about this though that weren’t to do with the intended despawning.

Null.9743:

Do you continue holding the orb after you attempt to throw it? The orbs despawn very commonly if you leave it to long so it’s very possible it’s despawning in the moment you try to throw it.

Otherwise it might just be a lag issue. I’ve not seen any other complaints about this though that weren’t to do with the intended despawning.

So it despawns after like 3 or 4 seconds is what you’re saying? I’ve never held onto one longer than that.

IMO she is mostly well designed. There are three things to consider.

1) Poor AoE circles visibility. The grate texture makes it hard sometimes and I believe this to be an oversight on devs part.

2) Camera issues becouse of the dome structure. Another oversight I believe.

3) Random nature of Cosmic orbs (other mechanics are not random and OK IMO). Perhaps that is intentional but I would not call a random factor like this a good design.

Awe.1096:

IMO she is mostly well designed. There are three things to consider.

1) Poor AoE circles visibility. The grate texture makes it hard sometimes and I believe this to be an oversight on devs part.

2) Camera issues becouse of the dome structure. Another oversight I believe.

3) Random nature of Cosmic orbs (other mechanics are not random and OK IMO). Perhaps that is intentional but I would not call a random factor like this a good design.

I agree with 1 and 2, but the orbs aren’t really random. They go off a few seconds after spawning, granted I never let them stick around long enough to go off anyways.

Celestina.2894:

I agree with 1 and 2, but the orbs aren’t really random. They go off a few seconds after spawning, granted I never let them stick around long enough to go off anyways.

There are times when they spawn in a place that simply wont allow you to rach them in time before they pull you. This is what I call random. Sometimes they spawn in places which will actually save your kitten by pulling you there. Sometimes they spawn in a manner which guarantees a KO (they love to pull you straight into Shadowfall and post-pull knockback means you cant even dodge that AoE). That is what I call random. IMO they should be somehow synced with the Shadowfall attack or be ranged attackable (would still require awereness to spot them on time, target and kill).

Awe.1096:

Celestina.2894:

I agree with 1 and 2, but the orbs aren’t really random. They go off a few seconds after spawning, granted I never let them stick around long enough to go off anyways.

There are times when they spawn in a place that simply wont allow you to rach them in time before they pull you. This is what I call random. Sometimes they spawn in places which will actually save your kitten by pulling you there. Sometimes they spawn in a manner which guarantees a KO (they love to pull you straight into Shadowfall and post-pull knockback means you cant even dodge that AoE). That is what I call random. IMO they should be somehow synced with the Shadowfall attack or be ranged attackable (would still require awereness to spot them on time, target and kill).

I recall them all spawning in the same spots for me (assuming I used the same arena)

Celestina.2894:

Awe.1096:

Celestina.2894:

I agree with 1 and 2, but the orbs aren’t really random. They go off a few seconds after spawning, granted I never let them stick around long enough to go off anyways.

There are times when they spawn in a place that simply wont allow you to rach them in time before they pull you. This is what I call random. Sometimes they spawn in places which will actually save your kitten by pulling you there. Sometimes they spawn in a manner which guarantees a KO (they love to pull you straight into Shadowfall and post-pull knockback means you cant even dodge that AoE). That is what I call random. IMO they should be somehow synced with the Shadowfall attack or be ranged attackable (would still require awereness to spot them on time, target and kill).

I recall them all spawning in the same spots for me (assuming I used the same arena)

AFAIK they have set of positions they can spawn at and where they actually will is random. Unless someone can deny that with confidence. If so please do it. Orbs are mostly problem in case of Light up the Darkness achievement. In this case Phase 2 cant be really predicted very well as you must focus on getting crystals ASAP. Normal kill is much easier, I just took zerker thief and ran circles around the dome while spamming Unload at her. Its a matter of time before you get lucky enough to not get the “I kill you!” cosmic orb and win.

For people who say arena is not part of the fight.

Games are centred around encounters, encounters are defined as a challenge the user/player needs to overcome. The area in which the challenge takes place is part of the encounter a fight with an ogre in an open field is not the same as a fight with an ogre in a closet.

In this case a really really buggy closet.

Funny, Liadri is not well designed. They designed liadri with only 2 skills (+ the environment is designed so player can hardly see the red circle). The other skills is environment. Put liadri in CoF. Lol she only has leap and whirl. Or if she retains all environment skill, change the ground to uniformly brown color. You will see: the successful encounter increase 50%.

If you want see mob which well designed: champ karka: have spit (immobilize), spawn hatchling, can immobilize you while damaging you, + deadly jumping skill, don’t forget their stability and retaliation.

The idea is a decent design, but it wasn’t executed properly and is horribly flawed. ;/

deviller.9135:

Funny, Liadri is not well designed. They designed liadri with only 2 skills (+ the environment is designed so player can hardly see the red circle). The other skills is environment. Put liadri in CoF. Lol she only has leap and whirl. Or if she retains all environment skill, change the ground to uniformly brown color. You will see: the successful encounter increase 50%.

If you want see mob which well designed: champ karka: have spit (immobilize), spawn hatchling, can immobilize you while damaging you, + deadly jumping skill, don’t forget their stability and retaliation.

People keep posting this and I don’t want to cause offence but it’s really dumb.

Liadra has a lot of skills and some of those skills directly relate to the environment. The environment is literally part of the boss fight, it’s not something you can split up and say “Well Liadra would be easy without the environment” because, well duh. That’s like saying “Mesmers would be easy to kill if they didn’t have any illusions”.

Of course they would, but that’s an irrelevant point because Mesmers were designed to have illusions. Liadra was designed to cast a lot of spells which create a very hostile environment on top of her auto-attack and crippling leap. The fact ANet aren’t overly reliant on “Giant boss with massive auto attack + an immobilise skill” is a good thing. We have far too many of those in MMOs already. I mean really, read back what you said.

“Ranged attack, spawns adds, immobolises, leaps” oh that just sounds like every Risen Veteran I’ve ever encountered. Very simple boss mechanics which are not hard to learn, are not hard to beat. So many Vets and Champs use this very standard and boring tactic.

What we need is more unique and challenging fights like Liadra.