(edited by bhagwad.4281)
Sad About Liadri
Always thought that hard work and perseverance will pay off. But not now…
Not to be a jerk, but the idea that “Time Spent” somehow equals – or should be a substitute for – aptitude is an annoyingly common thought process both in gaming and in real life.
Any sufficiently advanced skill is indistinguishable from luck.
So you miss out on a minipet, it’s no big deal. It’s supposed to be a rare item, not something everyone can obtain after a few goes.
That being said, it sucks if you can’t complete it because of PC performance issues, I feel sorry for people that are struggling to beat her because ArenaNet decided not to make it an instanced fight.
Always thought that hard work and perseverance will pay off. But not now…
Not to be a jerk, but the idea that “Time Spent” somehow equals – or should be a substitute for – aptitude is an annoyingly common thought process both in gaming and in real life.
It’s a question of whose aptitude? Do you design content so that the majority of players find it really hard or so that only a few can complete it? Who are you designing for? Not passing judgement. Just want to know.
And like I said, this challenge is limited not just by aptitude but by how much gold you can pay out.
So you miss out on a minipet, it’s no big deal. It’s supposed to be a rare item, not something everyone can obtain after a few goes.
That being said, it sucks if you can’t complete it because of PC performance issues, I feel sorry for people that are struggling to beat her because ArenaNet decided not to make it an instanced fight.
A legendary is also supposed to be a rare item. But I can get it if I put in insane amounts of hard work.
It’s a question of whose aptitude? Do you design content so that the majority of players find it really hard or so that only a few can complete it? Who are you designing for? Not passing judgement. Just want to know.
99.99% of GW2 is designed such that you can literally just turn on auto attack, get up, go make a sandwich, check your e-mail, feed the cat, come back, and collect a gold medal and treasure chest. There is absolutely no doubt that the game is designed almost entirely with absolutely no significant level of aptitude required whatsoever.
So to point at this one boss and claim that it’s somehow indicative of an unfair or exclusionary attitude in the game as a whole is clearly folly.
A legendary is also supposed to be a rare item. But I can get it if I put in insane amounts of hard work.
You mean insane amounts of farming. Not “hard work”. Again, we’re back to this idea that “time spent” is somehow analogous to something other than simply time spent.
Any sufficiently advanced skill is indistinguishable from luck.
I completely agree with you man. I have bad OCD. I literally have serious OCD, and my life revolves around this game. I’ve had that exact same thought cross my mind that this is made for someone better than me that I physically cannot get which is such a wonderful thing to think about it, or not. I never finished the Mad Kings Clock Tower in time, and it was a horrid pill to swallow. Sure it’s coming again, but my mind goes to “yea, but that achievement bar probably won’t count for this year.”
I also didn’t do enough snowball fights in Winters Day so I got an unfilled blemish in my achievement tab. A lot of that was in part, because I was bummed about Winter Wonder Land which I didn’t even bother with ‘cause Mad Kings Clock Tower was still bothering me. I gave Winter Wonder Land one shot, and turned away. A lot of times I feel why even bother playing if I can’t get everything? Looking at an account that has everything is very satisfying, and it in no way means most players will leave especially if there’s content always being added.
I actually get anxiety when a lot of these new events pop up ‘cause of a mini I’ll never have, or a title that came and went. Especially with things like Sanctum Sprint where you’ve got to beat so many other players who don’t have a programed difficulty. After I get the achievement, and go back I do great. I own it like a checkmate against a lone king, but the stress beforehand really impairs my playing ability.
It’s a question of whose aptitude? Do you design content so that the majority of players find it really hard or so that only a few can complete it? Who are you designing for? Not passing judgement. Just want to know.
99.99% of GW2 is designed such that you can literally just turn on auto attack, get up, go make a sandwich, check your e-mail, feed the cat, come back, and collect a gold medal and treasure chest. There is absolutely no doubt that the game is designed almost entirely with absolutely no significant level of aptitude required whatsoever.
So to point at this one boss and claim that it’s somehow indicative of an unfair or exclusionary attitude in the game as a whole is clearly folly.
A legendary is also supposed to be a rare item. But I can get it if I put in insane amounts of hard work.
You mean insane amounts of farming. Not “hard work”. Again, we’re back to this idea that “time spent” is somehow analogous to something other than simply time spent.
I’ve spent my time learning exactly how to get liadri down to phase 2. I can dodge to the second. What is beyond me is killing her after that with her conditions, and the orbs.
So I have no hesitation in admitting that there are those who are gifted. My question again – who do you design your content for?
No one is saying the boss should not be challenging. Did I say that? Cause I don’t remember saying that. I’m saying it should be very hard for most people. Not impossible for most and very hard for just a few.
I completely agree with you man. I have bad OCD. I literally have serious OCD, and my life revolves around this game. I’ve had that exact same thought cross my mind that this is made for someone better than me that I physically cannot get which is such a wonderful thing to think about it, or not. I never finished the Mad Kings Clock Tower in time, and it was a horrid pill to swallow. Sure it’s coming again, but my mind goes to “yea, but that achievement bar probably won’t count for this year.”
I also didn’t do enough snowball fights in Winters Day so I got an unfilled blemish in my achievement tab. A lot of that was in part, because I was bummed about Winter Wonder Land which I didn’t even bother with ‘cause Mad Kings Clock Tower was still bothering me. I gave Winter Wonder Land one shot, and turned away. A lot of times I feel why even bother playing if I can’t get everything? Looking at an account that has everything is very satisfying, and it in no way means most players will leave especially if there’s content always being added.
I actually get anxiety when a lot of these new events pop up ‘cause of a mini I’ll never have, or a title that came and went. Especially with things like Sanctum Sprint where you’ve got to beat so many other players who don’t have a programed difficulty. After I get the achievement, and go back I do great. I own it like a checkmate against a lone king, but the stress beforehand really impairs my playing ability.
Agreed. I too often dread new content because there may be something that is beyond me and that I’ll waste my time getting. But you just gotta have.
I don’t mind putting in the work and even honing my skills. Just that there are some things…beyond me.
My question again – who do you design your content for?
I answered that already. Is 99.99% of the content not enough for you, you have to try to paint the entire game design in a negative light simply because there’s one thing you can’t do?
Any sufficiently advanced skill is indistinguishable from luck.
My question again – who do you design your content for?
I answered that already. Is 99.99% of the content not enough for you, you have to try to paint the entire game design in a negative light simply because there’s one thing you can’t do?
Then let Anet openly come out and say it. Say “This reward is only for an elite few. It doesn’t matter how patient you are or how hard you work”. At least then I’ll know where I stand.
Then let Anet openly come out and say it. Say “This reward is only for an elite few. It doesn’t matter how patient you are or how hard you work”. At least then I’ll know where I stand.
Really? Do they really need to come out and personally put a label on every single thing that gets produced? You’re a human being, you don’t need to be told things that are self-evident, like a boss being difficult.
“WARNING: Fire may be hot”
Any sufficiently advanced skill is indistinguishable from luck.
Then let Anet openly come out and say it. Say “This reward is only for an elite few. It doesn’t matter how patient you are or how hard you work”. At least then I’ll know where I stand.
Really? Do they really need to come out and personally put a label on every single thing that gets produced? You’re a human being, you don’t need to be told things that are self-evident, like a boss being difficult.
“WARNING: Fire may be hot”
It’s also possible that they made a philosophical mistake with this design. By drawing their attention to it, I’m giving them the chance to correct it.
They’re free to ignore it if they want. So are you. What are you getting so worked up about?
My question again – who do you design your content for?
I answered that already. Is 99.99% of the content not enough for you, you have to try to paint the entire game design in a negative light simply because there’s one thing you can’t do?
I’d rather look at it like can’t do, but given enough time I still have hope to do. Like just recently a relatively new guild I’m with really got together just because of something I really wanted and didn’t make any fuss over, and only mentioned once and about a dozen of us went, and did the hydra queen. A lot of us got an achievement that day. I’ve played this game since 3 days before day one because I per-ordered, and just got that achievement.
This is a different kind of work to earn this one. Rather directly making progress at the task itself, you have to make progress towards making yourself better. It’s a learning experience.
It’s also possible that they made a philosophical mistake with this design. By drawing their attention to it, I’m giving them the chance to correct it.
The mistake they made was letting the same technical issues that have lingered since beta to creep into this content. (As it has with almost every bit of content since beta.) Someone needs to look at their QA/Testing team and really start asking what they’re doing.
Aside from that, it’s a challenging boss. That was the point of it.
They’re free to ignore it if they want. So are you. What are you getting so worked up about?
Is that an alternate version of, “u mad bro”? =D
Any sufficiently advanced skill is indistinguishable from luck.
I like it that there’s finally content that can’t be won by grinding mindlessly or facerolling stuff. I’m not saying that the Liadra fight is perfect (it could do with some changes/fixes), but it’s at least something that required some skill to achieve victory at.
Just who the hell do you think I am!?
This is a different kind of work to earn this one. Rather directly making progress at the task itself, you have to make progress towards making yourself better. It’s a learning experience.
1. If they really wanted it to be only about skill and improving yourself, they would have put it in the heart of the mists. No armor repair, no tokens costing money.
2. Suppose they designed content so that exactly one person in the entire GW2 playerbase was good enough to do it after a lot of effort. It that reasonable? Probably not. So once we’ve established a limit, the philosophical question comes into play again.
Strangely everyone here seems to think that there are only two options – insanely difficult and impossible to beat for most people….or faceroll. Why have so many completely ignored the middle ground? Requires skilled play…but no such skilled play that most people simply can’t do it regardless of how hard they try to improve?
When I watched the livestream for the Queen’s Jubilee, the Gauntlet was made with an increasing difficulty spike in mind. The devs spoke at length about how they want to introduce content that is supposed to represent prestige to the playerbase. They knew not everyone would beat it, and personally, I’m fine with that. Despite it’s “everyone wins” mentality, a sliver of competitiveness is necessary to make an MMO like GW2 successful.
I’m not saying that the fight couldn’t use some more visible AOE circles, but it’s definitely not impossible. Consider it the extremely difficult final boss of an old NES game. Realize that some will win, and some will lose, regardless of time spent.
Strangely everyone here seems to think that there are only two options – insanely difficult and impossible to beat for most people….or faceroll. Why have so many completely ignored the middle ground? Requires skilled play…but no such skilled play that most people simply can’t do it regardless of how hard they try to improve?
There are 11 other bosses in the gauntlet that fill those criteria. They’re all fairly forgiving if you pay attention to the mechanics, but still a challenge for many people.
Any sufficiently advanced skill is indistinguishable from luck.
Then let Anet openly come out and say it. Say “This reward is only for an elite few. It doesn’t matter how patient you are or how hard you work”. At least then I’ll know where I stand.
But… they did? During the live stream, the dev said something about there being no way to show off that you’re a pro player in-game. Then he showed the mini pet.
Strangely everyone here seems to think that there are only two options – insanely difficult and impossible to beat for most people….or faceroll. Why have so many completely ignored the middle ground? Requires skilled play…but no such skilled play that most people simply can’t do it regardless of how hard they try to improve?
The problem with middle ground content is that it’s generally only -somewhat- challenging the first few times, but after that it’s easy (due to the challenge always being the same). For me some of the other Gauntlet fights would classify as middle ground, that owned me the first few times, but once I knew what/how to do them, they’re all pretty easy. Middle ground difficulty is still guaranteed to be beaten by every one who doesn’t give up after a single failed attempt.
Even a tough challenge like Liadri becomes significantly easier once you know what to do.
Just who the hell do you think I am!?
This is a different kind of work to earn this one. Rather directly making progress at the task itself, you have to make progress towards making yourself better. It’s a learning experience.
1. If they really wanted it to be only about skill and improving yourself, they would have put it in the heart of the mists. No armor repair, no tokens costing money.
2. Suppose they designed content so that exactly one person in the entire GW2 playerbase was good enough to do it after a lot of effort. It that reasonable? Probably not. So once we’ve established a limit, the philosophical question comes into play again.
Strangely everyone here seems to think that there are only two options – insanely difficult and impossible to beat for most people….or faceroll. Why have so many completely ignored the middle ground? Requires skilled play…but no such skilled play that most people simply can’t do it regardless of how hard they try to improve?
1. Having to pay to try doesn’t imply it’s a place where time spent = reward. I do agree that paying to do it is pretty annoying for difficult content though (excluding the armor repair, I find that reasonable since it’s just like dying in any other portion of the non pvp game). I also think it’s meant to discourage people from repeatedly trying unless they have a chance, as well as being a gold sink for those who don’t want to earn tickets through events.
2. Far more people than that have beaten her.
For moderate difficulty type things, there’s (some) dungeons and fractals, but I agree we could use some more. We actually don’t have much content that would be considered very difficult.
This is a different kind of work to earn this one. Rather directly making progress at the task itself, you have to make progress towards making yourself better. It’s a learning experience.
1. If they really wanted it to be only about skill and improving yourself, they would have put it in the heart of the mists. No armor repair, no tokens costing money.
2. Suppose they designed content so that exactly one person in the entire GW2 playerbase was good enough to do it after a lot of effort. It that reasonable? Probably not. So once we’ve established a limit, the philosophical question comes into play again.
Strangely everyone here seems to think that there are only two options – insanely difficult and impossible to beat for most people….or faceroll. Why have so many completely ignored the middle ground? Requires skilled play…but no such skilled play that most people simply can’t do it regardless of how hard they try to improve?
The thing is, there is only 2 options for most people. Something they’re good enough to beat already (ie easy). Or stuff they can’t beat easily (hard/impossible depending on their patience). Degrees within that aren’t really important to most people.
Personally I want content that I find challenging. Most of the PvE content so far has been extremely easy (excepting high level fractals) unless I’m playing with a group that is a lot less skilled than me at the game, at which point it just becomes frustrating. Liadri is perfect for this, I find it challenging + I don’t have to rely on other people to be of comparable skill to beat it.
Another part of wanting challenging content is the knowledge that some other people can’t complete it. That’s what makes it an achievement to actually do it. If everyone can do something doing it is no longer special and the reward loses its significance.
The Unnamed[ThUn] – Desolation
Vayra – Elementalist
Forkrul Assail – Mesmer
Vayra – Elementalist
Forkrul Assail – Mesmer
An example of how to make Liadri challenging instead of impossible for most is to remove the orbs in phase 2. They introduce an element of luck that’s out of place with “it’s just skill” since a random spawn can down you instantly.
There’s plenty that the imagination can come up with. It’s not a false dichotomy between impossible and lol faceroll!
An example of how to make Liadri challenging instead of impossible for most is to remove the orbs in phase 2. They introduce an element of luck that’s out of place with “it’s just skill” since a random spawn can down you instantly.
There’s plenty that the imagination can come up with. It’s not a false dichotomy between impossible and lol faceroll!
They only spawn on the sides of the arena if you’re talking about the clones. If you’re talking about pull orbs, those aren’t a problem since they’re killed so easily.
It’s not a false dichotomy between impossible and lol faceroll!
And again you repeat something that’s already been addressed as if it’s an amazing revelation that no one could come up with an answer to.
Any sufficiently advanced skill is indistinguishable from luck.
PvP for example is content that is by definition competitive. And I love playing that. It’s a fair match up…my only regret is that there’s no dueling. But there are no repair costs, no “tokens”…nothing but your skill.
It’s not as if GW2 doesn’t have truly difficult content. PvP is the real combat endgame. But PvE should be a matter of hard work, skill, and patience. Yes…skill. Like I said above, it’s not a choice between no poss and childishly easy.
Like I said above, it’s not a choice between no poss and childishly easy.
Just gonna keep repeating that and pretending the other 11 bosses and the gambits don’t exist at all, aren’t you?
Any sufficiently advanced skill is indistinguishable from luck.
Like I said above, it’s not a choice between no poss and childishly easy.
Just gonna keep repeating that and pretending the other 11 bosses and the gambits don’t exist at all, aren’t you?
There’s a clear order of magnitude of difference between Liadri and the others with gambits. And btw, gambits only speed the process up. They don’t reward you with anything other than time.
Are you seriously saying that the imagination of the developers is so poor that they were unable to come up with anything harder than the other bosses with gambits and less difficult than Liadri?
So you’re saying you consider the other bosses to be childishly easy, yet Liadri to be impossibly difficult?
There’s a clear order of magnitude of difference between Liadri and the others with gambits.
That was kinda the point. There’s 11 bosses that get a little harder and harder and then one that’s really hard at the end. That’s the design. Not really sure what about this is posing such a challenge of comprehension.
Are you seriously saying that the imagination of the developers is so poor that they were unable to come up with anything harder than the other bosses with gambits and Liadri?
That’s a pile of words that barely makes sense in the context. The gauntlet scaling difficulty is exactly as the developers intended.
Any sufficiently advanced skill is indistinguishable from luck.
If it was some cool weapon skin I’d understand, but it’s just some useless minipet that you can’t even sell…
? <(^-^><)>^-^)> <(^-^)> ?
So you’re saying you consider the other bosses to be childishly easy, yet Liadri to be impossibly difficult?
I did?
There’s a clear order of magnitude of difference between Liadri and the others with gambits.
That was kinda the point. There’s 11 bosses that get a little harder and harder and then one that’s really hard at the end. That’s the design. Not really sure what about this is posing such a challenge of comprehension.
Are you seriously saying that the imagination of the developers is so poor that they were unable to come up with anything harder than the other bosses with gambits and Liadri?
That’s a pile of words that barely makes sense in the context. The gauntlet scaling difficulty is exactly as the developers intended.
Of course that’s what the developers intended. My point is to try and convince them to change their philosophy for next time.
Like I said, I wouldn’t have a problem if this challenge was in the mists.
So you’re saying you consider the other bosses to be childishly easy, yet Liadri to be impossibly difficult?
I did?
Like I said above, it’s not a choice between no poss and childishly easy.
So you’re saying you consider the other bosses to be childishly easy, yet Liadri to be impossibly difficult?
I did?
Like I said above, it’s not a choice between no poss and childishly easy.
I’m missing the part where I said the bosses were childishly easy. Could you please point that out?
You’re complaining about there being no middle ground. What are the other bosses then?
I’ve hardly slept, risked the wrath of my uncomprehending wife and am pretty stressed out.
Read this line again to yourself. Seriously stop playing. Go outside and do something else. Relieving the stress, taking the pressure off, and getting some sleep will probably help you beat her more than anything.
You’re complaining about there being no middle ground. What are the other bosses then?
The bosses are challenging, but there could certainly be something after that. Not a sudden exponential leap that puts it out of the reach of just about everyone.
So then they’re the middle ground between childishly easy and not possible that you were saying doesn’t exist?
I’ve hardly slept, risked the wrath of my uncomprehending wife and am pretty stressed out.
Read this line again to yourself. Seriously stop playing. Go outside and do something else. Relieving the stress, taking the pressure off, and getting some sleep will probably help you beat her more than anything.
Some of us have an in game routine. The sooner we get through the event the sooner we can go back to our own little corner of the game, and play. Not all of us get fed up with what’s already been established. Some people play a whole bunch of games, some people pick one game they like get really good at it and do everything in it.
So then they’re the middle ground between childishly easy and not possible that you were saying doesn’t exist?
“Middle ground” isn’t one monolithic level of difficulty. What you want to aim for is content that most people can do if they work really hard at it.
So then they’re the middle ground between childishly easy and not possible that you were saying doesn’t exist?
“Middle ground” isn’t one monolithic level of difficulty. What you want to aim for is content that most people can do if they work really hard at it.
Precisely. It’s somewhere between people who have the attention span of a rodent who aren’t willing to give it a few try’s, and people who want it to an unhealthy extreme.
So then they’re the middle ground between childishly easy and not possible that you were saying doesn’t exist?
“Middle ground” isn’t one monolithic level of difficulty. What you want to aim for is content that most people can do if they work really hard at it.
Precisely. It’s somewhere between people who have the attention span of a rodent who aren’t willing to give it a few try’s, and people who want it to an unhealthy extreme.
So….I shouldn’t want the rewards? Why play then?
So then they’re the middle ground between childishly easy and not possible that you were saying doesn’t exist?
“Middle ground” isn’t one monolithic level of difficulty. What you want to aim for is content that most people can do if they work really hard at it.
Precisely. It’s somewhere between people who have the attention span of a rodent who aren’t willing to give it a few try’s, and people who want it to an unhealthy extreme.
So….I shouldn’t want the rewards? Why play then?
I was hoping that quoting you would also entail your quote. I was expanding upon middle ground.
I also got ahead of myself, and added a word that shouldn’t have been there. I edited the post, but this thread is progressing quickly.
So then they’re the middle ground between childishly easy and not possible that you were saying doesn’t exist?
“Middle ground” isn’t one monolithic level of difficulty. What you want to aim for is content that most people can do if they work really hard at it.
Yes, but you were complaining nothing existed between Liadri level difficulty and extremely easy, so I was pointing them out.
Is the second sentence meant to be about middle ground, or in general? Because if it’s the, that would defeat the purpose of hard content. Also when you say work hard at it, do you mean something like a progression where you slowly build up the title, or just work to get better to beat it?
I totally agree with this sentiment.
I consider myself to be a pretty good player. I was able to beat every other gauntlet boss on the first attempt without looking up their attacks. However, when I got to Liadri, it took me roughly 35 attempts to actually beat her.
While although difficulty is welcomed, this sort of ‘difficulty’ is much more frustrating and aggravating than it is fun. It is not fun to spend hours doing the same exact content repeatedly only to fail and fail again. I can only imagine how it is for players that have spent over 100+ attempts on this.
To add to this, they added an exclusive reward to it which you cannot get unless you beat it, made the content temporary so you are time constrained, and also require a cost of entry to even attempt it.
To make something so frustrating and alienating to such a large number of players is a terrible design decision. Even though I have beaten it, I wholeheartedly support a total nerf of this boss.
I totally agree with this sentiment.
I consider myself to be a pretty good player. I was able to beat every other gauntlet boss on the first attempt without looking up their attacks. However, when I got to Liadri, it took me roughly 35 attempts to actually beat her.
While although difficulty is welcomed, this sort of ‘difficulty’ is much more frustrating and aggravating than it is fun. It is not fun to spend hours doing the same exact content repeatedly only to fail and fail again. I can only imagine how it is for players that have spent over 100+ attempts on this.
To add to this, they added an exclusive reward to it which you cannot get unless you beat it, made the content temporary so you are time constrained, and also require a cost of entry to even attempt it.
To make something so frustrating and alienating to such a large number of players is a terrible design decision. Even though I have beaten it, I wholeheartedly support a total nerf of this boss.
Well the whole point of the mini is so that it would be exclusive. Nerfing liadri would just be ANET caving into the majority and making all content accessible to everyone again.
All is vain.