(edited by Eluveitie.1290)
A not so living world
Living story?
Too busy playing SNES and running on the gear treadmill.
Can’t wait for treadmill armor next. :\
This game is finished for everyone with a brain. See you all in the next mmorpg.
I take back on Queen Jennah’s speech part due to this: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/a-message-from-queen-jennah/
(Though it breaks inmerssion it isn’t in-game and still we were fooled with the “she’s gonna make a huge announcement” part)
(edited by Eluveitie.1290)
The “Living Story” is neither “Living” — look at the zero effect the invasions had upon the world, for example, nor has there been much of a “Story” — “Hi, I’m Scarlet Briar and I’m insane and evil. That’s why I do the things I do.”
I take back on Queen Jennah’s speech part due to this: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/a-message-from-queen-jennah/
(Though it breaks inmerssion it isn’t in-game and still we were fooled with the “she’s gonna make a huge announcement” part)
The Queen’s Speech was just an excuse to give Scarlet a festival to crash. That’s the kind of plot we are dealing with here, the heroes throw a party simply because the writers want the villains to crakitten.
Seems so. That was a dissapointment. I hope we stop getting festivals from now on, but oh wait… october is almost here and then wintersday. At least I hope they’re as great as they were the first time.
Have to agree wholeheartedly. There’s so much available depth of content in the world already… why is it all fallen by the wayside? Stop trying to hard to think of new unrelated stories, and actually flesh out the stories that are already being told. I dunno what Living World is, but it doesn’t feel like Tyria.
I mean… how many more times are bandits going to attack the water pipes in Queensdale? How long does it take the Seraph to get a handle on that? Seriously.
I agree. These living stories just affect only a small part for a little while, and then leave maybe one or two things around when they’re gone.
It would be nice to see them leverage this development cycle for both purposes. 2 updates of small-time DE chain development in zones across the world, and the third update is a major event similar to what we see now, but preferably with a more permanent (& evolving) consequence left behind.
Have to say I agree with all that’s been said here.
I must have had way too high of expectations for this game. I was hoping that DEs would actually change the lands around it for a significant amount of time. I was hoping for something more dynamic, world changing, permanent…centaurs rallying troops to take over an entire zone, pirates marauding and pillaging everywhere if left unchecked. But we’re not there yet. Is that technology, funding, staff, management? I realize it’s hard, and extremely difficult, but I still have hope that some gaming company will get there…
Side note: Eluveitie, love that band.
(edited by Zhavari.7190)
sad fact is i could put a better story together with a class of preschoolers. this story has no flow. it jerks you around this way then that way and sometimes doesnt connect at all. please explain to me how sab connects to the living story because the last one didnt feel like an end to me and if i believe ya ill take this all back. im convinced anet had no idea where they were going and still dont. so maybe its time to end this living story garbage. they might as well quit and start making an exspansion cause with this garbage i dont see how they can do add ons that would seem to flow to be like an exspansion. i dont think its possible the way they are doing it. maybe if they had a flow i could see it
Ricky, the idea of having a LS in GW2 is awesome. Its just that, right now, the story and execution is done pretty poorly. Issues include too much grinding and not enough time to finish them, story not polished, characters not polished, Scarlet is a Villain Sue that have nothing to do with the GW2 universe, etc.
And seriously way too much land battles against the sky pirates. When will we get to fight them in the sky?
Chipsy Chips(Necromancer) & Char Ashnoble(Thief)
The Order of Dii[Dii]-SBI→Kaineng→TC→JQ
Necro Encyclopedia-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrAjJ1N6hxs
The Order of Dii[Dii]-SBI→Kaineng→TC→JQ
Necro Encyclopedia-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrAjJ1N6hxs
(edited by CHIPS.6018)
The main problem, for me, is that the “Living World” is not a living world. It’s a step-by-step linear story focused around Scarlet and Kiel and those they interact with (Rox, Braham, Marjory, Kasmeer, and Faren mainly it seems). And with each step, the previous step is removed.
It’s like building a staircase, but to create the next stair up, ArenaNet’s removing the bottom stair.
The saddest part, is that they claim they wanted a living world from day one. Which means right off the bat they failed. Why? Release content is static, and permanent. “Living World” content is not. It comes, and it goes. It alters what it affects, and leaves everything else in place.
If they really wanted a living world, they should have begun with releasing the initial content in steps – keeping it all permanent of course. For example, just off the top of my head, releasing each chapter of the personal story every week or two, having zones that are lvl 30+ sans Gandarren (Harathi Hinterlands, Bloodtide Coast, Fields of Ruin, etc.) cut off at release, slowly accessible as more of the personal story is released.
This would not only make the content of Orr’s invasion feel like it takes more than a few hours/days (in-game it’s supposed to be “several weeks” between Forging the Pact and The Source of Orr’s completion), but it would have given ArenaNet time to improve the fight with Zhaitan and later PS which were very buggy, as well as create a sense of true preparation with the attack and retaking of Claw Island (and of course Orr), and giving us a pacing for completing the main game’s storyline.
And on top of this, only have a select portion of the full amount of available events/event chains available and slowly add the rest that were tested to work together in.
By the time we are given everything we had prior to Halloween content, it’d have been the new year. They could have put more time into The Lost Shores, into Flame and Frost, and so forth as they would have had 2-3 more months to work on them.
But that’s in the past. Nonetheless, they really messed up with their “Living World” in my opinion. (I say the same for how they treated Guild Wars 1 after announcing GW2 – should have kept working and expanding GW1 with expansions or even just BMP-sized DLCs while slowly working on GW2, again IMO).
Main point: No, this isn’t a living story or a living world. It’s just a linear story told in steps, and not giving even a wide enough change to things that are indirectly affected by the changes.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Ricky, the idea of having a LS in GW2 is awesome. Its just that, right now, the story and execution is done pretty poorly. Issues include too much grinding and not enough time to finish them, story not polished, characters not polished, Scarlet is a Villain Sue that have nothing to do with the GW2 universe, etc.
And seriously way too much land battles against the sky pirates. When will we get to fight them in the sky?
ill agree with the idea of having it was a great idea if they would have had better flow. i felt from the start i’ve been jerked around. i’m sorry but they should have done 3 or 4 living stories about the molten alliance itself with each one giving us more stuff about them. and now i’ve been jerked around so much i see no connection between many of the story lines especially sab how does it relate to the story or was it put there to show us that an ending happened and we are going to the next living story. if the last chapter was an ending how is that an ending. every chapter i questioned how these all relate and everyone says we’ll get the explanation in the next chapter or down the road you’ll see the connection. i don’t understand the connection i don’t see endings. i thought our personal nemises we were supposed to know all along and would recognize. i didn’t know scarlet til she appeared and still don’t have a clue why she did what she did. i work for a living i cant 5 million places to figure this stuff out. anet either needs how to relate this info better or give up. i love this game but they are making it more frustrating each 2 weeks they do this garbage.
now i’ve been jerked around so much i see no connection between many of the story lines especially sab how does it relate to the story or was it put there to show us that an ending happened and we are going to the next living story.
Yes, that is the line they are feeding us, that this was like a chapter ending. What I heard was, “We really didn’t plan this out well. Two weeks is putting a lot of internal pressure on us to release content and to do so we need easily expanded content in the game like SAB to give us more time to work on more impressive Living Story arcs. We really shouldn’t have started out on the Living Story until we had enough of this filler content in place to give us the time we need to tell quality stories with fun content that changes the world, but we’ll press on anyway telling these disjoint tales that have little lead up, exposition, and don’t meet the standard of quality we promised in the manifesto.”
I don’t know if it’s pride, poor management, or just lack of care; but they need to re-evaluate the two week release schedule for something that produces better quality and permanent content.
funny thing i said along that the two week pace was too fast and even before that i called for less content updates and to get the game in a better state. i will admit anet is always been over ambitious when trying to add new content. i remember in gw1 they stated they wanted to do a chapter each 6 months and then two chapters later they scraped that. anet has always tried too hard and too fast. they need to learn patience. i think the two week thingy is going to burn both us and them out so going back to the monthly thing and getting the pace right might be a great idea. i still think the living story could have so much potential is done a bit differently and slower but what they have now is a disaster waiting to happen
I wanted to chime in here as I feel the OP has addressed several issues that I agree with. For all the claims of “innovation” that guild wars 2 promised, it actually seems to be going backwards. The world is stagnant, and these new patches are not different than any other MMO piling on content while failing to update what exists.
The main problem, for me, is that the “Living World” is not a living world. It’s a step-by-step linear story focused around Scarlet and Kiel and those they interact with (Rox, Braham, Marjory, Kasmeer, and Faren mainly it seems). And with each step, the previous step is removed.
It’s like building a staircase, but to create the next stair up, ArenaNet’s removing the bottom stair.
The saddest part, is that they claim they wanted a living world from day one. Which means right off the bat they failed. Why? Release content is static, and permanent. “Living World” content is not. It comes, and it goes. It alters what it affects, and leaves everything else in place.
If they really wanted a living world, they should have begun with releasing the initial content in steps – keeping it all permanent of course. For example, just off the top of my head, releasing each chapter of the personal story every week or two, having zones that are lvl 30+ sans Gandarren (Harathi Hinterlands, Bloodtide Coast, Fields of Ruin, etc.) cut off at release, slowly accessible as more of the personal story is released.
This would not only make the content of Orr’s invasion feel like it takes more than a few hours/days (in-game it’s supposed to be “several weeks” between Forging the Pact and The Source of Orr’s completion), but it would have given ArenaNet time to improve the fight with Zhaitan and later PS which were very buggy, as well as create a sense of true preparation with the attack and retaking of Claw Island (and of course Orr), and giving us a pacing for completing the main game’s storyline.
And on top of this, only have a select portion of the full amount of available events/event chains available and slowly add the rest that were tested to work together in.
By the time we are given everything we had prior to Halloween content, it’d have been the new year. They could have put more time into The Lost Shores, into Flame and Frost, and so forth as they would have had 2-3 more months to work on them.
But that’s in the past. Nonetheless, they really messed up with their “Living World” in my opinion. (I say the same for how they treated Guild Wars 1 after announcing GW2 – should have kept working and expanding GW1 with expansions or even just BMP-sized DLCs while slowly working on GW2, again IMO).
Main point: No, this isn’t a living story or a living world. It’s just a linear story told in steps, and not giving even a wide enough change to things that are indirectly affected by the changes.
The way I see it, they’re trying too hard to be different and innovative in the MMO’s genre. That is, of course, not bad at all. But the quality of that innovation sometimes pales in comparison to the traditional way. Your last paragraph would have been, in my opinion, a much better approach than having four teams pressuring themeselves to realease and realease and release.
A living world would, well, actually have a constant evolving world. Like you say, we have a linear story told by steps. Nothing else changes or evolves. There’s so MANY lore opportunities, so many stories, mysteries, adventures and what not already, in some way or form, in the game which could be expanded on and developed. But we only get this nin-month long single story that is not really going anywhere, and seems more like a bullet ball in a closed room.
It’s really too late to think about what could have been better, but not too late to improve things. The personal story is there, nothing is going to change it. It was a big mess-up they didn’t think good enough about on how it was going to evolve after a year. I just hope they take into account the points of view from people in this forum & lore to improve the way they’re delivering their game (specially lore/story wise), which lately is sloppy. The first season of their game is over, let’s hope the second is better.
(edited by Eluveitie.1290)
After playing this game for over a year I would like to give an example of what I believe a true living world should be.
First and foremost it NEEDS REAL consequences for failure. If you have centaurs taking over a town when you fail, why must they end there? If given long enough the centaurs can and should take the whole kitten map, enslaving and forcing the npc’s within the areas to be hostile to the PC’s (similar to a flipped keep in WvW). Waypoints, once the map is taken, should all be contested, making the trip to that map impossible save for entering through a nearby map. And why stop there, if the centaurs form an alliance with the dredge they could start controlling even more of the maps. If however they are at odds with the dredge we could form a temporary alliance with one side to defeat the other or at very least see then openly at war with one another.
Large scale invasions like scarlet should be epic in scope (destroying maps/npcs) until rebuilt/defended by the PCs for an extended length of time. Supply runs similar to what we see in Cursed Shore would be a good start, but much more widespread. IF these rebuild actions are not taken by the PCs then they should just lay there rotting (needing more supply runs in the process to repair) until they are done!
I guess my whole point to this post is that without real meaningful consequences we may as well be furniture. Devs please take a page from the way some things in WvW are handled; leaving WvW to the enemies will leave you having to ACTUALLY WORK to regain your ground, and IMO it should be the same in the PvE world. Until it is done in a way that we can and do get hooped for letting things fail, we are no better than bystanders in your game.
I guess my whole point to this post is that without real meaningful consequences we may as well be furniture. Devs please take a page from the way some things in WvW are handled; leaving WvW to the enemies will leave you having to ACTUALLY WORK to regain your ground, and IMO it should be the same in the PvE world. Until it is done in a way that we can and do get hooped for letting things fail, we are no better than bystanders in your game.
In many points I agree with your post BUT what about the timers for the events? What will happen to, say, Harathi Hinterlands at night when no one is on the map and centaurs are taking the entire place over for several hours each night? Will we have to constantly work at clearing the map every day? (Not such a bad thing imo as it would encourage the people in LA to spread out and help defend the map but still). Plenty of people in WvW matchup threads QQ about “nightcapping” and want Anet to stop it. If I’m wandering Tyria I don’t want my access to a SP or POI blocked because a waypoint is contested and there’s a septillion mobs waiting nearby to nom my face off until the others on the server can be bothered enough to go recap the village. Would create even higher demand for certain classes and even lower demand for others, leading to more imbalance and more QQ and on and on.
Elsewhere up thread someone else said that all wps should be contested on a map, which would make it difficult to get around lest you die-unless you’re somehow revived by, I dunno, a wandering band of Priests of Dwayna or medic golems or St. Bernard type Sylvan hounds or members of an Order or Pact who are stationed in an area nearby or so on who patrol loops around certain areas. (Actually the St. Bernard Sylvan Hounds would be quite funny, with casks of omnomberry juice around their necks). I have mixed feelings about all wps contested unless they implement some sort of ressing idea.
Lareswen-Human Warrior/Zinnia Epsilon-Asura Mesmer
The Tyrian Institute (TI)
One of the few Americans on Gunnar’s Hold (EU)
The Tyrian Institute (TI)
One of the few Americans on Gunnar’s Hold (EU)
The day/night cycle would indeed be a pest, however with the extent of data anet gathers it could be handled IMO. For instance they could adjust the events to “fire” only when the server in question has the population to handle the events. The logic behind this could be the enemies have to sleep sometime too. Unlike in WvW where we the players run the show, in PvE it could be made to more suit the population that is in the current area/world.
Also as to the ressing npcs, it could be implemented as you progress into the map. As you free villages/npc’s their militia (a few npc fighters) would come with you to capture the next town and so forth. These npcs should rez the fallen similar to the veterans around the keeps in WvW. As waypoints are uncovered they should become uncontested etc etc.
I’m not saying that there are not many many things to consider with making a living world that would feel alive, but it would be nice if it were to feel less like trying to breath life into a corpse.
I don’t want my access to a SP or POI blocked because a waypoint is contested and there’s a septillion mobs waiting nearby to nom my face off until the others on the server can be bothered enough to go recap the village. Would create even higher demand for certain classes and even lower demand for others, leading to more imbalance and more QQ and on and on..
I see this as more of a problem with map completion (a reward/carrot) than with the interesting mechanic that is being proposed. I’d rather it not be the case that interesting mechanics have to be put aside because they’ll interfere with reward access. I think the game should be primarily about fun with rewards put into supplement the already fun activity. If rewards are getting in the way of introducing fun and interesting mechanics, then something is wrong with the reward system. That said, there is no reason the invasion objectives can’t scale based on player population in the current map.
For me personally, I find the game more fun when I’m not paying attention to the carrots and just exploring the world and encountering events as they unfold on my journey.
I don’t want my access to a SP or POI blocked because a waypoint is contested and there’s a septillion mobs waiting nearby to nom my face off until the others on the server can be bothered enough to go recap the village. Would create even higher demand for certain classes and even lower demand for others, leading to more imbalance and more QQ and on and on..
I see this as more of a problem with map completion (a reward/carrot) than with the interesting mechanic that is being proposed. I’d rather it not be the case that interesting mechanics have to be put aside because they’ll interfere with reward access. I think the game should be primarily about fun with rewards put into supplement the already fun activity. If rewards are getting in the way of introducing fun and interesting mechanics, then something is wrong with the reward system. That said, there is no reason the invasion objectives can’t scale based on player population in the current map.
For me personally, I find the game more fun when I’m not paying attention to the carrots and just exploring the world and encountering events as they unfold on my journey.
I’m working on map completion on 2 chars at once (one for her Bifrost, the other just because map completion is an awesome way to level). So in a sense I -am- paying attention to the carrots and letting the map unfold for me at the same time as I hate speedclearing anything (except for Orr but that is a different story). That said, I have no problems with the interesting mechanics people are proposing…so long as they are not overdone. Unfortunately ANet tends to overdo things.
Lareswen-Human Warrior/Zinnia Epsilon-Asura Mesmer
The Tyrian Institute (TI)
One of the few Americans on Gunnar’s Hold (EU)
The Tyrian Institute (TI)
One of the few Americans on Gunnar’s Hold (EU)
(edited by Kyven.7514)
The problem with “LS” and content updates in general is the quality of the content which is released. For the most part the content has been in my opinion has been horrible, even with the content updates their seems to be zero incentive to actually get involved in the product being released. A question I think the community needs to ask itself is: What content has Arenanet produced with these “LS” updates which would set Guildwars 2 apart from others Mmo’s?
The LS has a number of problems that go right down to the conceptual level, frankly, and has done little but worked tirelessly to sabotage this game’s success from day one:
1. It is inconsistent with release content and creates cognitive dissonance with the PS and launch dungeons. Why would all of that be ‘static’ but character-driven when everything since is ‘living’ and development-driven?
2. The fast release cycle without even so much as a test realm means rushed, buggy content, which is just bad for the game’s image/reputation.
3. The constant release-pull-release-pull is a massive development vacuum that perpetually diverts resources away from the significant growth of the game, the story, and world that any MMO needs. Over a long period of time, the game suffers immensely and has little to show for it compared to traditional content updates, which causes a major loss of interest to both veteran and lapsed players.
4. The content so far at least has had a very ‘flavor of the month’ vibe which results in the LS feeling fragmented and incohesive and therefore lacking much depth. This is very much a shame because the world of Tyria is very interesting and has the potential to feel very deep and immersive.
5. Rushed, time-gated content release after release is just incredibly annoying. Completionists get frustrated and abandon the game, casuals don’t really get to experience it, and hardcore players don’t find it interesting enough to bother with. In short, it’s an epic fail for everyone that isn’t just in love with it for some arbitrary reason.
6. The business model encourages recurrent play rather than persistent play. When a player who has lapsed logs in to check the game out from time to time, they don’t see that much has changed so therefore their interest isn’t rekindled and they immediately stop again. The hemorrhaging of players is a self-perpetuating snowball.
I care about this game immensely but they have been on the wrong track since launch. I sure hope it can be shaped up and am cautiously optimistic year two will be better.
<SNIP> The LS has a number of problems that go right down to the conceptual level, frankly, and has done little but worked tirelessly to sabotage this game’s success from day one:
I didn’t want to quote your whole post, but wow, you nailed it. Completely. I hope ANet is listening.
Gotta agree with Einlanzer here.
To me, the LS feels like its just tacked on. It doesnt feel like part of the main game. Every update seems like a holiday event, even when it has nothing to do with a holiday. I wanted the living story to feel like an add-on to the personal story, but it doesnt. It feels like tacky Checklists.
Thats not to say I dont like the concepts and story. The delivery and implementation just irks me the wrong way. I feel like they are digging themselves into a hole that they will never get out of with the LS. I hope it gets better. I hope it starts to feel like a core part of the game and not a random assortment of events.
(edited by Hellafelon.5376)
The world isn’t living at all. It changes for a week or so and then we go back into a time machine to the original world.
Then more “living story” content comes…we play it for a week or so and then the world goes back to what it was.
i7-3770K (Delidded) @ 4.6GHz | nVidia GTX TITAN X@ 1468/7800
ASUS Sabertooth Z77 | 16GB Corsair Dominator Platinum 1866MHz @ 2400MHz
Samsung 840 PRO 512GB SSD | Windows 10 x64
ASUS Sabertooth Z77 | 16GB Corsair Dominator Platinum 1866MHz @ 2400MHz
Samsung 840 PRO 512GB SSD | Windows 10 x64
This is my problem with the “living story”…it is not alive. Nothing changes. EVERY AREA that an event hits should be changed, PERMINANTLY.
Sky pirates gets hot down in the middle of the sylvari forest? Show the wreckage and the forest fire that was caused. Over the next few months the forest slowly reclaims what was burned off.
Centaur build up an army and start reclaiming land in other maps, forcing the npc camps to move and hearts to change based on the new event. Over the next few months as players complate the new hearts the centaur very slowly get pushed back and it culminates in a one day event where you run a story that has you kill the leader. Don’t log in that day you don’t get to kill the leader. He’s gone, perminantly.
Maybe the humans push back the centaur farther than before and some of the outposts become small towns? The players decide they like one of those towns and hang out there…amenities such as class trainers, BLT, bank, guild vendors…all start showing up there and the town grows a bit. Now an event gets launched against it…the players defend their town for a week of solid attacks by cantaur…players fail enough of the events and the town starts shrinking again…they win enough events the town has proven stable and defended and now the centaur have to reclaim a DIFFERENT area..
THAT is a living world…perminant changes. You leave for a month and come back to changes to the world somewhere.
Living story?
Too busy playing SNES and running on the gear treadmill.
Can’t wait for treadmill armor next. :\
It’s close. :/