Guild Wars 2

Fun fact: i did all of the ls 2 achievements naked without trinkets; weapons only.
Didn’t feel rewarding. I also did liadri and got a mini; felt very rewarding.
I do like a challenge and yes, i do like if the game acknowledges what i did.
I am what you would call a completionist: i like to complete challenges the game offers me natively. I’m also not into min-maxing stats or have much time to play the game. Sorry if that doesn’t fit into your neat little black and white view of casuals and elitists.

Sunshine.4680:

Want a challenge? Stop rolling easy classes with zerk builds and run with no traits, no gaming mice and lag yourself. Now you have a challenge, why is it the people who always complain about things being to easy are the ones playing face roll dps classes?

I can tell you from experience that even with a more tanky build the achievements are too easy, they only take more time.

Crovax.7854:

Fun fact: i did all of the ls 2 achievements naked without trinkets; weapons only.
Didn’t feel rewarding. I also did liadri and got a mini; felt very rewarding.
I do like a challenge and yes, i do like if the game acknowledges what i did.
I am what you would call a completionist: i like to complete challenges the game offers me natively. I’m also not into min-maxing stats or have much time to play the game. Sorry if that doesn’t fit into your neat little black and white view of casuals and elitists.

So what you want isn’t a challenge, it’s a reward that you can hold over other people.

Gotcha.

Also, I didn’t use the word casuals, and elitism quite definitely does have a very factual definition, so not sure what that last sentence was supposed to mean.

Filaha.1678:

Crovax.7854:

Fun fact: i did all of the ls 2 achievements naked without trinkets; weapons only.
Didn’t feel rewarding. I also did liadri and got a mini; felt very rewarding.
I do like a challenge and yes, i do like if the game acknowledges what i did.
I am what you would call a completionist: i like to complete challenges the game offers me natively. I’m also not into min-maxing stats or have much time to play the game. Sorry if that doesn’t fit into your neat little black and white view of casuals and elitists.

So what you want isn’t a challenge, it’s a reward that you can hold over other people.

Gotcha.

Also, I didn’t use the word casuals, and elitism quite definitely does have a very factual definition, so not sure what that last sentence was supposed to mean.

What you don’t seem understand the notion of getting a reward and just being proud of it because for some reason you think people want to feel superior.
I can’t understand your inability to comprehend that putting effort into something and getting something in return doesn’t mean a person wants the feeling of superiority over others.
When I did my naked LS runs or a DSII SL1 run, i did it because I wanted a challenge, not to show others how much better I am. Killing Liadri felt rewarding because i did it and getting out that mini feels good because I know that I did something hard to get it.
Also an MMO has many different of players that all have a different playstyle. It’s a good thing to provide content that suits all needs. Maybe try to understand the thought process of people who are not necessarily of your opinion.

Overcoming a challenge should feel rewarding and doing the achievements doesn’t.
Beating super meat boy or binding of isaac felt rewarding because it was natively hard.
Doing tedious achievements where i even have to take off all my armor to make them even remotely difficult doesn’t.
This has nothing to do with impressing or superiority over others

Crovax.7854:

(…)

Overcoming a challenge should feels rewarding and doing the achievements doesn’t.
Beating super meat boy or binding of isaac felt rewarding because it was natively hard.
Doing tedious achievements where i even have to take off all my armor to make them even remotely hard doesn’t.
This has nothing to do with impressing others

That is correct. Unfortunately you can’t use one brush for the wide variety of players in a MMO. Single Player games you have the option of changing the skill level for yourself. Change the native hardness if you so will. You can adapt the game to your skill level. With MMOs you cannot – you can only take off your armour if you feel like it.

Crovax.7854:

Filaha.1678:

Crovax.7854:

Fun fact: i did all of the ls 2 achievements naked without trinkets; weapons only.
Didn’t feel rewarding. I also did liadri and got a mini; felt very rewarding.
I do like a challenge and yes, i do like if the game acknowledges what i did.
I am what you would call a completionist: i like to complete challenges the game offers me natively. I’m also not into min-maxing stats or have much time to play the game. Sorry if that doesn’t fit into your neat little black and white view of casuals and elitists.

So what you want isn’t a challenge, it’s a reward that you can hold over other people.

Gotcha.

Also, I didn’t use the word casuals, and elitism quite definitely does have a very factual definition, so not sure what that last sentence was supposed to mean.

What you don’t seem understand the notion of getting a reward and just being proud of it because for some reason you think people want to feel superior.
I can’t understand your inability to comprehend that putting effort into something and getting something in return doesn’t mean a person wants the feeling of superiority over others.
When I did my naked LS runs or a DSII SL1 run, i did it because I wanted a challenge, not to show others how much better I am. Killing Liadri felt rewarding because i did it and getting out that mini feels good because I know that I did something hard to get it.
Also an MMO has many different of players that all have a different playstyle. It’s a good thing to provide content that suits all needs. Maybe try to understand the thought process of people who are not necessarily of your opinion.

Overcoming a challenge should feels rewarding and doing the achievements doesn’t.
Beating super meat boy or binding of isaac felt rewarding because it was natively hard.
Doing tedious achievements where i even have to take off all my armor to make them even remotely difficult doesn’t.
This has nothing to do with impressing or superiority over others

It’s rewarding to do something if it’s natively hard, but not rewarding to do something that’s not natively hard, even if you were to get the same rewards either way?

So if they were to put in an achievement that’s actually hard, except you still get the same Geode cache, you’d be fine with that as long as it’s kitten its own?

Or would you still complain because you want something special for it?

Rouven.7409:

Crovax.7854:

(…)

Overcoming a challenge should feels rewarding and doing the achievements doesn’t.
Beating super meat boy or binding of isaac felt rewarding because it was natively hard.
Doing tedious achievements where i even have to take off all my armor to make them even remotely hard doesn’t.
This has nothing to do with impressing others

That is correct. Unfortunately you can’t use one brush for the wide variety of players in a MMO. Single Player games you have the option of changing the skill level for yourself. Change the native hardness if you so will. You can adapt the game to your skill level. With MMOs you cannot – you can only take off your armour if you feel like it.

That’s right but MMOs are also substantially bigger with much more content than your average single player game. Having a big variety of content that suits the majority of the playerbase is (i.e. story instances and associated achievements, new zones with zerging and farming content) is perfectly fine but i feel as if player who want a bit more are completely left out.
I could totally understand that if GW2 was marketed as casual friendly without any challenge from the start but the active combat with timed dodges, big hits that are clearly telegraphed which gives a general DS ‘light’ vibe, distinct aoe markers with boss mechanics that require a team to work together and the fact that explorable dungeons were advertised as rock hard to appeal to a more ‘hardcore’ crowd before the game came out are in contrast to what the game actually is.

Filaha.1678:

Crovax.7854:

Filaha.1678:

Crovax.7854:

Fun fact: i did all of the ls 2 achievements naked without trinkets; weapons only.
Didn’t feel rewarding. I also did liadri and got a mini; felt very rewarding.
I do like a challenge and yes, i do like if the game acknowledges what i did.
I am what you would call a completionist: i like to complete challenges the game offers me natively. I’m also not into min-maxing stats or have much time to play the game. Sorry if that doesn’t fit into your neat little black and white view of casuals and elitists.

So what you want isn’t a challenge, it’s a reward that you can hold over other people.

Gotcha.

Also, I didn’t use the word casuals, and elitism quite definitely does have a very factual definition, so not sure what that last sentence was supposed to mean.

What you don’t seem understand the notion of getting a reward and just being proud of it because for some reason you think people want to feel superior.
I can’t understand your inability to comprehend that putting effort into something and getting something in return doesn’t mean a person wants the feeling of superiority over others.
When I did my naked LS runs or a DSII SL1 run, i did it because I wanted a challenge, not to show others how much better I am. Killing Liadri felt rewarding because i did it and getting out that mini feels good because I know that I did something hard to get it.
Also an MMO has many different of players that all have a different playstyle. It’s a good thing to provide content that suits all needs. Maybe try to understand the thought process of people who are not necessarily of your opinion.

Overcoming a challenge should feels rewarding and doing the achievements doesn’t.
Beating super meat boy or binding of isaac felt rewarding because it was natively hard.
Doing tedious achievements where i even have to take off all my armor to make them even remotely difficult doesn’t.
This has nothing to do with impressing or superiority over others

It’s rewarding to do something if it’s natively hard, but not rewarding to do something that’s not natively hard, even if you were to get the same rewards either way?

So if they were to put in an achievement that’s actually hard, except you still get the same Geode cache, you’d be fine with that as long as it’s kitten its own?

Or would you still complain because you want something special for it?

Nope, that’e exactly what i personally want. Of course it’s nice to get something special but what you said is perfectly fine.

Crovax.7854:

That’s right but MMOs are also substantially bigger with much more content than your average single player game. Having a big variety of content that suits the majority of the playerbase is (i.e. story instances and associated achievements, new zones with zerging and farming content) is perfectly fine but i feel as if player who want a bit more are completely left out.

From a business perspective, if you would “maybe” lose 1% of the players, but on the other hand have 80% happily doing the content you created, another 19% maybe not caring much – to me that would make more sense than binding production resources into whatever 1% might really love, but will be done with in 2 hours, and another 80% will moan about it and be unhappy with.

Fractals I think are a good compromise of being easy to get into and then getting “harder” – although I do understand that this seems not to be too true, as again people complain they are boring and not hard at all.

Maybe it would be best if they put more resources into making fractals “better”.

I could totally understand that if GW2 was marketed as casual friendly without any challenge from the start but the active combat with timed dodges, big hits that are clearly telegraphed which gives a general DS ‘light’ vibe, distinct aoe markers with boss mechanics that require a team to work together and the fact that explorable dungeons were advertised as rock hard to appeal to a more ‘hardcore’ crowd before the game came out are in contrast to what the game actually is.

I always had the feeling that this game was marketed as a “very casual” friendly game. No grind etc.

You might be oblivious to how hard certain content is for a large portion of the player base, but you should not be oblivious to the fact that this is how MMOs became so big in the first place.

The mighty big number one might have come out with a “raid” all the time and the hardcore crowd was bored with it after a week or two months having it on “farm” status, but they changed much over time as well – ask yourself why.

I would love for MMOs to be so much more as well! But some things are best left to other genres, be it solo RPG’s a la Skyrim, or platformers (?) a la Super Meat Boy.

Edit: Regardless, I am not trying to discourage anyone for asking what they think is reasonable, this is just what I feel to be reasonable when it comes to difficulty in MMOs.

Crovax.7854:

Nope, that’e exactly what i personally want. Of course it’s nice to get something special but what you said is perfectly fine.

See, that’s where I’m stuck.

Why is it rewarding to do something that’s natively hard but not something that you make hard if you’re getting the same objective rewards?

Maybe it’s because I used to do the whole “Making things harder for yourself” in single-player games which didn’t give any special rewards either, be they RPGs or action games. I quite definitely felt better about my accomplishments in games while nerfing myself.

Filaha.1678:

Why is it rewarding to do something that’s natively hard but not something that you make hard if you’re getting the same objective rewards?

I don’t want to make it hard by myself, whats the point in an MMO to play for good gear / traits / skins… and then have to not use it in order to make the game challenging?

Filaha.1678:

Crovax.7854:

Nope, that’e exactly what i personally want. Of course it’s nice to get something special but what you said is perfectly fine.

See, that’s where I’m stuck.

Why is it rewarding to do something that’s natively hard but not something that you make hard if you’re getting the same objective rewards?

Maybe it’s because I used to do the whole “Making things harder for yourself” in single-player games which didn’t give any special rewards either, be they RPGs or action games. I quite definitely felt better about my accomplishments in games while nerfing myself.

Let me put it this way: Overcoming a game that was designed to be difficult from the start feels rewardig because you get the felling that you actually beat the game itself.
It throws everything it’s got at you but you still come out on top while playing it as it was originally intended.
Having to kitten yourself to get some sort of challenge doesn’t give that same feeling of accomplishment because you have to tinker with how the game works/you interact with the game and tweak difficulty through ways that were not intended.

I’d rather meet a challenge that was there from the start instead of having to make my own because that would only make me feel like the designers are insulting my intelligence and ability to understand the most basic principles and game mechanics.

Dwaynas Avatar.1562:

Filaha.1678:

Why is it rewarding to do something that’s natively hard but not something that you make hard if you’re getting the same objective rewards?

I don’t want to make it hard by myself, whats the point in an MMO to play for good gear / traits / skins… and then have to not use it in order to make the game challenging?

Why should they make challenges based around requiring top gear instead of spending their time on making their game good for the greater number of people?

Hell, even the achievements now are challenging for some people. Just because you can do them easily doesn’t mean they’re not challenging.

Crovax.7854:

Let me put it this way: Overcoming a game that was designed to be difficult from the start feels rewardig because you get the felling that you actually beat the game itself.
It throws everything it’s got at you but you still come out on top while playing it as it was originally intended.
Having to kitten yourself to get some sort of challenge doesn’t give that same feeling of accomplishment because you have to tinker with how the game works/you interact with the game and tweak difficulty through ways that were not intended.

I’d rather meet a challenge that was there from the start instead of having to make my own because that would only make me feel like the designers are insulting my intelligence and ability to understand the most basic principles and game mechanics.

Okay, so let’s say they put in an achievement that’s actually challenging for you, and you manage to beat it with all your gear. Would you then feel no greater sense of accomplishment if you were to try it again with no gear on and succeed, knowing that they threw their best at you and you still could do it while naked?

Out of curiosity, did you beat Liadri with all gambits on?

i have a different question, why do you see achievements as a way to get a challenge?
i rather have a dungeon mode specifically for the hardcore players, it will at least leave the achievements alone so the non-hardcore players have a chance of maxing an achievement….

Filaha.1678:

Why should they make challenges based around requiring top gear instead of spending their time on making their game good for the greater number of people?

Hell, even the achievements now are challenging for some people. Just because you can do them easily doesn’t mean they’re not challenging.

They should because it’s a mmo, people like me want such things, I don’t demand all their resources, just a tiny bit like I said.
Achievements should be challenging and there should be for everyone something, thats all I’m saying (I would take more if I would get it).
There is a reason that single player games have different difficulty options, in
guild wars 2 there is no such thing (in gw1 there was at leas “Hard Mode”), so they could give the players that are more good at the game something to do.
Noone in GW1 argued about Hard Mode (before entering a map you could choose this and then everything got harder), you needed top gear for it. Everyone liked it, I don’t say they should do something like this again (would cost too many resources) but there should be something really challenging for everyone.

Strawpoll results until now:

Votes: 100 Achievements are ….
hard: ~15% || easy: ~15% || good: ~50% || not worth doing: ~20%
Surprised: not for 1%, but ~15% of the players the achievements are too easy

To all who suggest “taking off armor”. Doing that only reduces your stats.

It doesn’t fix mechanics or make encounters more fun.

Dwaynas Avatar.1562:

Filaha.1678:

Why should they make challenges based around requiring top gear instead of spending their time on making their game good for the greater number of people?

Hell, even the achievements now are challenging for some people. Just because you can do them easily doesn’t mean they’re not challenging.

They should because it’s a mmo, people like me want such things, I don’t demand all their resources, just a tiny bit like I said.
Achievements should be challenging and there should be for everyone something, thats all I’m saying (I would take more if I would get it).
There is a reason that single player games have different difficulty options, in
guild wars 2 there is no such thing (in gw1 there was at leas “Hard Mode”), so they could give the players that are more good at the game something to do.
Noone in GW1 argued about Hard Mode (before entering a map you could choose this and then everything got harder), you needed top gear for it. Everyone liked it, I don’t say they should do something like this again (would cost too many resources) but there should be something really challenging for everyone.

Again, “challenging” is subjective. What you think is challenging may be impossible for other people.

They already have “challenging” achievements in the game. What they don’t have are achievements you want.

Are they supposed to just keep turning up the difficulty a bit until they hit what you want? Seems like a waste of time to me. Time better spent making sure the content in general is good for the clear majority of players.

Dwaynas Avatar.1562:

Strawpoll results until now:

Votes: 100 Achievements are ….
hard: ~15% || easy: ~15% || good: ~50% || not worth doing: ~20%
Surprised: not for 1%, but ~15% of the players the achievements are too easy

Are you implying that 100 votes is indicative of the entire playerbase?

Rym.1469:

To all who suggest “taking off armor”. Doing that only reduces your stats.

It doesn’t fix mechanics or make encounters more fun.

Right. Lower stats = harder fights. The longer it takes to kill something, the more you have to be able to avoid their attacks.

Dwaynas Avatar.1562:

Strawpoll results until now:

Votes: 100 Achievements are ….
hard: ~15% || easy: ~15% || good: ~50% || not worth doing: ~20%
Surprised: not for 1%, but ~15% of the players the achievements are too easy

and the same % shows it’s to hard, better yet 50% tells that it’s good the way it is.
conclusion, why change when it works….

sorudo.9054:

Dwaynas Avatar.1562:

Strawpoll results until now:

Votes: 100 Achievements are ….
hard: ~15% || easy: ~15% || good: ~50% || not worth doing: ~20%
Surprised: not for 1%, but ~15% of the players the achievements are too easy

and the same % shows it’s to hard, better yet 50% tells that it’s good the way it is.
conclusion, why change when it works….

I think too many people don’t understand my goal:
I DONT want them to change ALL achievements, I just want 1 (or more if they want to) achievement that is really difficult even for the hardcore players.
Everyone else just gets everything how it is.
TY

Edit: and around 15% of the players are with me

Dwaynas Avatar.1562:

sorudo.9054:

Dwaynas Avatar.1562:

Strawpoll results until now:

Votes: 100 Achievements are ….
hard: ~15% || easy: ~15% || good: ~50% || not worth doing: ~20%
Surprised: not for 1%, but ~15% of the players the achievements are too easy

and the same % shows it’s to hard, better yet 50% tells that it’s good the way it is.
conclusion, why change when it works….

I think too many people don’t understand my goal:
I DONT want them to change ALL achievements, I just want 1 (or more if they want to) achievement that is really difficult even for the hardcore players.
Everyone else just gets everything how it is.
TY

Edit: and around 15% of the players are with me

Votes: 100

14 people are with you.

Filaha.1678:

Votes: 100

14 people are with you.

16 and I said: ~15%,
but this is not the point, the point is: it’s more than expected and enough for Anet to
cover.
(100 votes is not too much, I know, but I can’t do a gamewide poll as you may know)

Your poll nicely shows that Anet is doing it right, with the majority of players liking it the way it is.

Using your logic you could also argue on the flipside they would “have” to make it easier.

Rouven.7409:

Your poll nicely shows that Anet is doing it right, with the majority of players liking it the way it is.

Using your logic you could also argue on the flipside they would “have” to make it easier.

I think you don’t get it either.
A game shouldn’t only serve 1 type of players, especially if it’s a mmo.
I don’t want their whole resources, only a little bit.

Filaha.1678:

Rym.1469:

To all who suggest “taking off armor”. Doing that only reduces your stats.

It doesn’t fix mechanics or make encounters more fun.

Right. Lower stats = harder fights. The longer it takes to kill something, the more you have to be able to avoid their attacks.

Okay, look.

If the entire boss mechanic is mostly sidestepping AoE pools, taking off your gear will just make the fight longer. You still sidestep.

If the boss mechanic is big one-shot from time to time, taking off your gear will just make the fight longer. You still dodge same one-shot.

You can argue that, yeah, more dodges makes more room for that one failure. But again, is it fun? Besides, once you catch what to dodge doing it won’t be considered as “challange”.

Excuse my words, maybe I’m wrong, but you seem like a kind of person who plays the game not to have fun in combat and trying different approaches, but getting the stuff done and getting your reward.

For me, interesting, demanding and fun (!) mechanics are what make encounters and content good.

P.S. Instead of taking gear off, I reccomend you to click below on my signature. You’ll find plenty of ideas satisfying everybody.

Rym.1469:

Filaha.1678:

Rym.1469:

To all who suggest “taking off armor”. Doing that only reduces your stats.

It doesn’t fix mechanics or make encounters more fun.

Right. Lower stats = harder fights. The longer it takes to kill something, the more you have to be able to avoid their attacks.

Okay, look.

If the entire boss mechanic is mostly sidestepping AoE pools, taking off your gear will just make the fight longer. You still sidestep.

If the boss mechanic is big one-shot from time to time, taking off your gear will just make the fight longer. You still dodge same one-shot.

You can argue that, yeah, more dodges makes more room for that one failure. But again, is it fun? Besides, once you catch what to dodge doing it won’t be considered as “challange”.

Excuse my words, maybe I’m wrong, but you seem like a kind of person who plays the game not to have fun in combat and trying different approaches, but getting the stuff done and getting your reward.

For me, interesting, demanding and fun (!) mechanics are what make encounters and content good.

P.S. Instead of taking gear off, I reccomend you to click below on my signature. You’ll find plenty of ideas satisfying everybody.

And how about the achievement to not let any of the minions die? Slower kills = needing more to keep them off. Slower kill on boss = more things you have to protect. More challenging right there!

Also, I’d like to know how you come to that conclusion of how I play the game. If I find the game fun as it is, then what makes you think that I don’t want it to be fun by not thinking they should waste time ramping up challenges for a minority of players that may STILL complain about it not being hard enough, so that the majority of players can then complain that it’s too hard?

From a business standpoint, potentially satisfying a handful while risking annoying a majority is, frankly, stupid.

Dwaynas Avatar.1562:

Filaha.1678:

Votes: 100

14 people are with you.

16 and I said: ~15%,
but this is not the point, the point is: it’s more than expected and enough for Anet to
cover.
(100 votes is not too much, I know, but I can’t do a gamewide poll as you may know)

Except for the fact that it’s immediately counter-balanced by people who think it’s already too hard. If 15% of 100 people is enough to make them want to think of how to make it harder, why isn’t 15% of 100 people enough to make them want to think of how to make it easier?

Filaha.1678:

Except for the fact that it’s immediately counter-balanced by people who think it’s already too hard. If 15% of 100 people is enough to make them want to think of how to make it harder, why isn’t 15% of 100 people enough to make them want to think of how to make it easier?

Ok, listen:
There is no such thing as counterbalance in this case. Why?
Because there are different kinds of players, and a mmo is there to give them all something to do, because it’s focused on a large number of players.
I DONT say they shall only make difficult achievements, the 50/15/15/20 means following: they should do manly achievements like the ones right now, but also some easier ones and some more difficult ones, and for the 20% that don’t bother either higher the rewards or make it in some other way enoyable.
Understand it now?

Dwaynas Avatar.1562:

Filaha.1678:

Except for the fact that it’s immediately counter-balanced by people who think it’s already too hard. If 15% of 100 people is enough to make them want to think of how to make it harder, why isn’t 15% of 100 people enough to make them want to think of how to make it easier?

Ok, listen:
There is no such thing as counterbalance in this case. Why?
Because there are different kinds of players, and a mmo is there to give them all something to do, because it’s focused on a large number of players.
I DONT say they shall only make difficult achievements, the 50/15/15/20 means following: they should do manly achievements like the ones right now, but also some easier ones and some more difficult ones, and for the 20% that don’t bother either higher the rewards or make it in some other way enoyable.
Understand it now?

Or they can stay doing what they’re doing and satisfy the greatest number of people without having to come up with things while thinking “Is this going to be hard enough?”

Again, what’s challenging to you might be easy for someone else. What happens if they cater to you and make you happy but there’s still half the “too easy” people who think it’s STILL too easy? Then once they’ve hit the point where it’s challenging enough for everybody, everyone who thought it was just fine now or too hard now will be dissatisfied that they’re now entirely locked out from getting all the achievements because what was too hard before is now easy comparatively.

For every person they try to please by putting in something harder, they’re potentially displeasing 3 to 4 times as many (and this is by your entirely untrustworthy poll) by saying “Nope, sorry, these achievements aren’t for you.”

Understand now?

Why should they risk displeasing 85% of the game in order to satisfy 15%?

Dwaynas Avatar.1562:

Rouven.7409:

Your poll nicely shows that Anet is doing it right, with the majority of players liking it the way it is.

Using your logic you could also argue on the flipside they would “have” to make it easier.

I think you don’t get it either.
A game shouldn’t only serve 1 type of players, especially if it’s a mmo.
I don’t want their whole resources, only a little bit.

Oh no, I’m getting it, you just don’t get that it’s only feasible to a degree. Most often than not, from the comments over the years, I would believe that they thought “it” was really hard – and then 5 minutes later someone already did “it”.

You can only offer a certain range realistically.

Anyways, I’d be more concerned about 20% not being interested in them at all.

Filaha.1678:

Why should they risk displeasing 85% of the game in order to satisfy 15%?

Ok, this is like talking against a wall.
Maybe the anet devs understand it, if they read this thread.

Dwaynas Avatar.1562:

Filaha.1678:

Why should they risk displeasing 85% of the game in order to satisfy 15%?

Ok, this is like talking against a wall.
Maybe the anet devs understand it, if they read this thread.

Funny, I was thinking the same thing, except I’m sure that Arenanet won’t see it your way.

Despite what you seem to want to think, I’m quite well aware that you’re not saying they should make EVERYTHING hard.

However, you’re not getting what I’m saying. If most people want to do the achievements and get the rewards, making it so that most people can’t do the achievements and get the rewards is displeasing.

Again, why should they attempt to please a significant minority which may or may not be pleased with their attempts anyways, just to risk displeasing a majority who may or may not be able to do the achievements but want them?

That’s just illogical and bad business.

MMOs aren’t designed to please everybody. MMOs are designed to please the majority.

Filaha.1678:

GOOD MMOs are designed to please everybody (as much as they can). BAD MMOs are designed to please the majority.

Fixed this for you

GW1 was a good one.

Dwaynas Avatar.1562:

Rouven.7409:

Your poll nicely shows that Anet is doing it right, with the majority of players liking it the way it is.

Using your logic you could also argue on the flipside they would “have” to make it easier.

I think you don’t get it either.
A game shouldn’t only serve 1 type of players, especially if it’s a mmo.
I don’t want their whole resources, only a little bit.

you don’t get it, there is no need to change something that already works, what is needed is both harder and easier content to have achievements in.
don’t change what we have, only add what is needed.

Dwaynas Avatar.1562:

Filaha.1678:

GOOD MMOs are designed to please everybody (as much as they can). BAD MMOs are designed to please the majority.

Fixed this for you

GW1 was a good one.

Guild Wars 1 didn’t please everybody though. Hell, my entire guild quit well before the first expansion came out simply because we ran out of things to do.

Crovax.7854:

melodyca.8921:

Dwaynas Avatar.1562:

Shinzan.2908:

Content should be designed with the majority of players in mind, achievements only 1% of people can get would be dumb and a waste of design time in my opinion.

I think the ones we are getting are fine.

This 1% we are talking about is most likely playing the game more than the other 99%.
If anet isn’t allowed to make content for this 1%, then there shouldn’t be legendarys in the game and no 50 fractals…
Everyone should have a little bit love, even if it’s only this 1%…

Your basically saying that Anet should cater to the Elitists and screw everyone else over.

And when that happens…you will start to see people leave in droves.

No, he’s saying they should create a rewarding experience with challenges inspire people to improve. I realise the target audiance for this game is mainly entitled people who think buying the game should give the everything by default but there has to be content for everyone.
People want a challenge. That’s why spelunky was critically acclaimed. That’s why dark souls 1 and 2 were such big hits.

I’ll never have a legendary. I don’t have the time and even if i did, i couldn’t endure such a long grind. I simply do not have enough determination; i lack the required skills.
But does that mean i think i should have one? NO!
It’s okay to not have all the things.

You think everyone should get everything. I think everyone should get the same chance of getting everything.

Um…Never said I wanted everything handed to me. Also…the Dark Souls series is not a MMO.

Not everyone plays the same way you do and the majority of the people who play here are casual players.

OP, try a different class other than the highest dmg class currently, say a thief, engi or ranger and then say cheeves are too easy. Maybe they will be too easy for you still, to that I say go play another game with raids like Wildstar.
For some of us the new LS2 ach’s are much harder than others have been in the past.

Okay, let’s say your poll shows that the Devs should add some new/different Achievements. Let’s also say they have so much time and so many resources to add said Achievements. Let’s say enough for one more Achievement, as they are mostly working on getting the Episodes out.

Now, your poll says 15% want a more difficult Achievement. But, it also says 15% want an easier Achievement. Which should they choose? Or, alternatively, should they use their resources to create an Achievement, neither more difficult or easier as 50% of the poll would find pleasing?

Poor Devs!

Filaha.1678:

Okay, so let’s say they put in an achievement that’s actually challenging for you, and you manage to beat it with all your gear. Would you then feel no greater sense of accomplishment if you were to try it again with no gear on and succeed, knowing that they threw their best at you and you still could do it while naked?

Out of curiosity, did you beat Liadri with all gambits on?

In a perfect world that’s exactly how it works but most fights in gw2 don’t become easier just through experience alone. But yes, if what i did was originally hard and i beat it making it even harder, that feels good. The problem here is imho that fights are originally easy and i have to play outside the rules to make them hard to begin with.

For the record: I didn’t try liadri with all gambits. I was considering it after 8orbs but realised that it would require a lot of preparation and trail and error which doesn’t work with my schedule. I leave that to people who are much better than me at the game.

melodyca.8921:

Um…Never said I wanted everything handed to me. Also…the Dark Souls series is not a MMO.

Not everyone plays the same way you do and the majority of the people who play here are casual players.

I never attempted to point out similarities between DS and gw2. What I was trying to do was showing that hard games can be successful too. Besides, you make the common mistake of thinking casual means ‘bad’ or ‘not competent’.
I’m a casual player too but I still would like some content that requires advanced knowledge of my class and a good understanding of game mechanics.

I do realise that there are players who might not be able to get everything but at the same time I wonder: What is worse? Asking for something to do for everyone or denying other people the chance to get what they want because I personally can’t have it? The problem lies in the entitled attitude of people who think they should get everything for just trying and can’t bear the thought of something being out of their reach.
As i said before; there are many things i will never have in this game but that’s fine.
Not everyone should have everything. It’s like that in real life so i wonder what kind of people can’t cope with the possibilty of it being like that ingame too.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Okay, let’s say your poll shows that the Devs should add some new/different Achievements. Let’s also say they have so much time and so many resources to add said Achievements. Let’s say enough for one more Achievement, as they are mostly working on getting the Episodes out.

Now, your poll says 15% want a more difficult Achievement. But, it also says 15% want an easier Achievement. Which should they choose? Or, alternatively, should they use their resources to create an Achievement, neither more difficult or easier as 50% of the poll would find pleasing?

Poor Devs!

You are leaving out the most logical step:
Make 3 easy/medium achievements with the difficulty that we have now plus a challenging one per level. Doesn’t have to be super hard but maybe just a bit over the others so most people won’t get it on their first try but can easily achive it through
proper usage of skills and knowledge of their surroundings and the enemies they encounter.

Well, that’s assuming they have the resources to add more Achievements.

My point is: If there is a limited amount of resources, then it is likely those resources would be used to satisfy the greatest number of players.

Still, who knows? Maybe they will add some ‘more difficult’ Achievements to satisfy the 15%, or maybe they will add some ‘easier’ Achievements to satisfy the 15%.

My bet is on neither.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Well, that’s assuming they have the resources to add more Achievements.

My point is: If there is a limited amount of resources, then it is likely those resources would be used to satisfy the greatest number of players.

Still, who knows? Maybe they will add some ‘more difficult’ Achievements to satisfy the 15%, or maybe they will add some ‘easier’ Achievements to satisfy the 15%.

My bet is on neither.

The funny thing is, that the devs even told us they would make difficult achievements, so they obviously have some resources for achievements.
This thread is purly there for the reason that they didn’t achieve their goal with difficult achievements in my opinion and to show this them (and give opportunity for other people to discuss about it, too).

There are each time I think around 8 achievements or so in this story, so they could do 4 like the ones you get right now, 2 easier ones and 2 more difficult ones. This would give everyone something to do.
They mentioned a couple times, that achievements now are not for everybody like it was in Season 1, they obviously want a challenge for their players.

And as a side note: they should do something about the 20% that is not interested in doing them at all.

Filaha.1678:

Dwaynas Avatar.1562:

Filaha.1678:

Why should they risk displeasing 85% of the game in order to satisfy 15%?

Ok, this is like talking against a wall.
Maybe the anet devs understand it, if they read this thread.

Funny, I was thinking the same thing, except I’m sure that Arenanet won’t see it your way.

Despite what you seem to want to think, I’m quite well aware that you’re not saying they should make EVERYTHING hard.

However, you’re not getting what I’m saying. If most people want to do the achievements and get the rewards, making it so that most people can’t do the achievements and get the rewards is displeasing.

Again, why should they attempt to please a significant minority which may or may not be pleased with their attempts anyways, just to risk displeasing a majority who may or may not be able to do the achievements but want them?

That’s just illogical and bad business.

MMOs aren’t designed to please everybody. MMOs are designed to please the majority.

Let me put it this way:

Filaha.1678:

How does not having a specific skin prevent someone from enjoying the content?

Also, it’s nobody’s fault but one’s own if one did not level one’s crafting while on one’s way to 80.

Now, take the word “skin” or “title” and say that’s a reward for a completely optional achievement that, like our current LS achievements, only requires doing something extraordinary in existing content.

It’s not an instance of Arenanet actively hurting the populace, it’s an instance of creating a tough challenge with a unique reward. Similarly, very few people got access to a lite of things in past releases, like the monocle, holo wings, jetpack, etc. etc.

The difference is that those who got those rewards quite literally lucked in to it. My thinking is that a “very rare” reward should be a lot more about the play that went in to it than whether or not someone got lucky.

Yes, it’s a badge for people, but it’s not so they can “lord it over” others. It’s giving them a trophy for what was a difficult undertaking. The implementation of the liadri mini and title are great examples of this. It didn’t lock players out of content, and it was very, very light on development time, but it gave the players a unique reward befitting a unique and difficult task.

And that’s all people really want. I’m sure every single person that’s ever solo’d lupi would love to have a title or mini or skin rather than nothing. It’s not about creating a walled garden of content like some irritating raid progression that only a small portion of the player base will ever experience. It’s about rewarding players for their play.

The current achievement setup is a big step in that direction, and it does reward well, but what it doesn’t do is create that “I walked naked in to the monster’s lair, destroyed him with my bare hands, and here’s the scar to prove it” feeling.

We play story content to experience the story, we play zones for bulk acquisition and occasionally getting lucky, but we have precious few things in the game that carry the expectation and corresponding reward for doing something truly above and beyond.

Couch it however you want, the reward system in this game is by and large completely cosmetic, however the vast majority of cosmetic rewards are handed out wither for repeating a relatively simple task a large number of times, or for just stumbling in to a run of good luck. Why shouldn’t those who want to take on tough challenges rather than farm or RNG rewards have a spot at that table as well? It’s a small spot, for a small amount of effort, for a small amount of players.

We’d really need to know what are the completion %‘s of the current achievements before we could make a decision. I have a feeling that the casual playerbase (i.e. the ones who don’t really bother with achievements and just take whatever pops up normally when they do stuff) has largely ignored the LS2 ones. (Didn’t ANet’s own stats say once that 80%+ of the player base has less than 3k AP? That’s very telling.)

Speaking for myself, the Chapter 1 achievements were pretty easy to get. The Chapter 2 ones are tougher. I might actually need to team up with others to get a couple of them.

I found the achievements easy as well, I had even done some of them already — in a sense — before they were unlocked. A few off the top of my head: I had 0 clue what was going on in the first LS instance of ch. 1, my workers lived even without me going to help the north pass, I saw the lightning aspect and hit Aerin (catching him by surprise), I shot down numerous packs of Inquest in Ch. 2 that could’ve counted.

I will say though, Ch. 2 has been a bit better though considering having a group to defend at Concordia seemed to work out best.
Do I think the easy achievements need to go away though? No. I just would like to see some more of them and more variety because a lot of it is a no-brainer. Maybe there’s a speed achievement that needs you to be in a group to do it fast enough, maybe one of them requires scouting the instance area to find — and its off the beaten path, etc. Maybe some of them will be too hard, but I’d really love to see some varying difficulty.
And again, Ch. 2 seems to be a bit more interesting in terms of its chieves, but I’d love more.

i was really happy when they announced difficult achievements that not everyone will get

does everyone need to get every achievement?

you still get to see the story
you still can go on and dont miss on anything but a few achievement points and a geode coffer…

since you can do the living story anytime you want
find a way to deal with it at some point in the future

it is completely okay to make achievements that only 1% of the players get within the first two weeks
if its that hard to get then players feel they really have ACHIEVED something when they finally managed to get that thing

what anet did was
adding achievements u cant do together

like use consoles..no problem..
now for your thrid achievement restart since we dont want you to usea console at all…

they are rewrding basically just for time spent

kitten they dont even allow us to do the achievements when we do it first time with that chra..

i did like the first episode
that jumping section did take a few mins
in the same mission searching inquest stuff was something i had fun with as well

so after oneepisode i liked in terms of difficulty (sure could be harder)
and one that was clearly too easy..

i think its still too easy to say stuff like achievements for ls are too easy in general
id love to see harder actualin combat things however that may be not the best idea since that would result in the majority of the players who cant even complete the episode

well.. they could add something like charge the golems so they explode on death and deal much less dmg to do the mission the usual way like 8 lightning fields all over the place

and achievement would be like beat it without charging golems (ie without letting them run through such a field)

Uh… I just hope that the devs doesn’t add things like Liadri.

Everytime I remember her I just go and cry in a corner. So many time wasted, wasn’t even fun, just despair and suffering… and for what? For nothing. Never again. I learned my lesson, when anet says that someting is “challenging” and when the forums says that is “too easy” I need to run and hide asap.

The funny in a weird and sad way is that the rest of the gauntlet was fun… sure, I died a few… ok, a lot of times until I managed to find the correct combination of weapon and skills, or some good soul gave me a awesome advice or sometimes was just blind luck.
But Liadri… shivers

Now, excuse me, but I need to go and cry in that corner.

What would you consider to be a hard achievement anyway? All players are limited to the same engine and gear, and since guides exist it stands to reason that no matter how difficult, once someone figures out how to beat a challenge anyone else will be able to do it given enough practice.

I imagine that an achievement only 1% of players could get would by necessity require a ton of grind (so people are unwilling to do it), a cookie cutter build (so most characters and classes can’t do it or can only do it with very specific gear), or luck (making it random). None of those options sound fun so what do you suggest?

sorudo.9054:

try to survive long enough to get the survivor achievement with anything but a guardian, make something out of it instead of using an already OP profession and complain that “it’s to easy”.

Do you mean the achievement for quicksand? Because its hilariously easy with a necro. Death Shroud anyone? I tried on my guardian 10x and failed, swap to my barely geared necro? Did it first try.

There are videos of every class doing every achievement. Some are easier to play than others, but by no means is any profession difficult compared to another. You have two categories: easy and easier.

Dwaynas Avatar.1562:

I think too many people don’t understand my goal:
I DONT want them to change ALL achievements, I just want 1 (or more if they want to) achievement that is really difficult even for the hardcore players.
Everyone else just gets everything how it is.
TY

Edit: and around 15% of the players are with me

Ah, there we go. I wasn’t sure what to think of this thread until that was clarified for me. Now that it is…basically, I’m with you.

I’m a terrible player. Not very skilled at all. Probably couldn’t do many of the achievements even as they are now, to be honest (but I haven’t really tried, either; just not my thing). If you were saying that all achievements should be cranked up to a level that you would find challenging, I’d give that a big “NO” vote.

But yes, I agree that there should be time and resources enough to throw the occasional uber-challenge out there for the people who like that sort of thing. Like, all three of you (I kid, I kid!).

I do think that ANet has to be mindful of the kind of rewards they give out for really difficult achievements, though. It should be something nice that players can display to show that they’ve done it, but not something " argh, so freaking cool!!!" that the majority of players who can’t perform at that level are destined never to have. That only creates resentment and more resistance to the idea of elite and challenging content. For example, I thought the Liadri mini was fine. When I see it, I know someone beat her, but I’m not sitting there seething that resources were used to create something so desirable that I’ll never have.

OP, maybe you can start a new thread somewhere with suggestions about what kinds of things make content difficult for you. Someone mentioned that it isn’t just a question of bosses with more DPS and a bigger health pool, but rather a question of interesting and different mechanics that challenge the player. Give ANet some ideas of the kinds of mechanics you would find both challenging and fun.

Good luck!

If they make the achievements harder, they should improve the rewards. The ones we got now are, imho, very meh.

minbariguy.7504:

Dwaynas Avatar.1562:

I think too many people don’t understand my goal:
I DONT want them to change ALL achievements, I just want 1 (or more if they want to) achievement that is really difficult even for the hardcore players.
Everyone else just gets everything how it is.
TY

Edit: and around 15% of the players are with me

Ah, there we go. I wasn’t sure what to think of this thread until that was clarified for me. Now that it is…basically, I’m with you.

I’m a terrible player. Not very skilled at all. Probably couldn’t do many of the achievements even as they are now, to be honest (but I haven’t really tried, either; just not my thing). If you were saying that all achievements should be cranked up to a level that you would find challenging, I’d give that a big “NO” vote.

But yes, I agree that there should be time and resources enough to throw the occasional uber-challenge out there for the people who like that sort of thing. Like, all three of you (I kid, I kid!).

I do think that ANet has to be mindful of the kind of rewards they give out for really difficult achievements, though. It should be something nice that players can display to show that they’ve done it, but not something " argh, so freaking cool!!!" that the majority of players who can’t perform at that level are destined never to have. That only creates resentment and more resistance to the idea of elite and challenging content. For example, I thought the Liadri mini was fine. When I see it, I know someone beat her, but I’m not sitting there seething that resources were used to create something so desirable that I’ll never have.

OP, maybe you can start a new thread somewhere with suggestions about what kinds of things make content difficult for you. Someone mentioned that it isn’t just a question of bosses with more DPS and a bigger health pool, but rather a question of interesting and different mechanics that challenge the player. Give ANet some ideas of the kinds of mechanics you would find both challenging and fun.

Good luck!

Honestly, I’d be happy with titles for achievements like this, and a hefty chunk of AP. Titles are quick and easy to implement (It’s another string entry in a database) and AP rewards are things all players will eventually have access to on a long enough timeline anyway.

Though, a shinier version of a story related skin might be a nice nod as well. Like, say for this one it could have been your choice of a shiny polished version of the new weapon skins or something.

Please, don’t give me this “1%” argument. I’m pretty sure we can make harder content which is OPTIONNAL whitout being accessible to only the top tier extra skilled player. If I remember correctly, GW1 had pretty difficult content that demanded for coordination, knowing what is going on and preparation. Aka Hard Mode. There was achievements for doing so. No, not everybody was able to do it, but most succeeded and loved it, even if it was a pain in the kitten sometimes.