Guild Wars 2

Mirta.5029:

Flytrap.8075:

…how is Guild Wars not an MMO?

Even by Anet’s description it was a CORPG. MMO would imply massively multiplayer and everything besides the cities being instanced that you can take at most 16 people (I think?) in makes it not so massive.

Actually, considering that GW1’s design demands you re-create a map hundreds of times, if not thousands, every time a 4 to 24 player group was in it, i’d say its far more resource demanding than a permanent map holding a hundred players.

Instead of one 100 player map, you’d need 8-10 maps with 8 players.. which automatically spawn and despawn on command, each of which have the full group of mobs/bosses/npcs even if they’re dead in another map.

That’s harder, not easier, and tougher on resources.

Enokitake.1742:

2) Anet has 300 roughly employees. If they focused more attention on campaigns and less on LS, we’d easily have an expansion already, much like we had 2 after only 1.5 years after initial release.

And where do you know from where they’re allocated and what projects are they doing?

Enokitake.1742:

3) GW2 took 5 years for a very simple reason: GW2 was originally another campaign. It was canceled mid-development, and they decided to beat the rush to the “new-wave” of MMOs. The ACTUAL gw1 list looks like this:

Campaigns
Guild Wars Prophecies (April 2005)
Guild Wars Factions (April 2006)
Guild Wars Nightfall (October 2006)
Guild Wars Utopia (cancelled) — added note: and rescheduled/redeveloped as GW2.

Expansions
Guild Wars Eye of the North (August 2007)

Other
Bonus Mission Pack (November 2007)

Content updates
Sorrow’s Furnace (September 2005)

And how do you know whether GW2 ends up with canceled side projects or not? There were mentions in topics about how much content that was written and voice-acted gets cut out of the living story.

Mirta.5029:

Enokitake.1742:

2) Anet has 300 roughly employees. If they focused more attention on campaigns and less on LS, we’d easily have an expansion already, much like we had 2 after only 1.5 years after initial release.

And where do you know from where they’re allocated and what projects are they doing?

The answer is it doesn’t matter: If you’re directing manpower away from one project (expansion) for another (LS) you’re going to finish the first project slower simply because less people are on it. You have to carefully choose in advance.

Mirta.5029:

And how do you know whether GW2 ends up with canceled side projects or not? There were mentions in topics about how much content that was written and voice-acted gets cut out of the living story.

Things always get cut out of any game, usually pre-development or very early into it. That doesn’t really mean anything.

Mirta.5029:

Enokitake.1742:

2) Anet has 300 roughly employees. If they focused more attention on campaigns and less on LS, we’d easily have an expansion already, much like we had 2 after only 1.5 years after initial release.

And where do you know from where they’re allocated and what projects are they doing?

Isn’t it obvious?

People are unhappy because they don’t get an extension, just as they are unhappy with everything that departs from their little habbits.
Yet I am very happy that ANet is willing to experiment with a lot of new things with GW2. That is how we will have fresh air and hopefully an end to an endless stream of empty WoW clones.
Had not nature experimented for 3.5B years, there would not be anything more than bacteria around.

I have yet to see a game which expansion keeps me really busy more than one month, while LS kept me busy for one year.

And as someone mentioned elsewhere, keeping on adding new content just dilutes the playerbase overtime. What they are doing here is smart in that they keep the playerbase focused on ever changing content, hence reinforcing the feeling of taking part to a MASSIVELYmorpg.

Just show me another MMORPG where you can consistantly find hundreds of players playing the same content at once for one year.

To me it is quite obvious that ANet has chosen the path of emphasizing player cooperation through massive events, be it PvE or WvW. I won’t say it is a good nor bad choice, it is a matter of personal taste. But for the moment they don’t show sign of departure from that line since the release and you should better spend your energy adapting to it than crying on the forum. You will start enjoying it after a while, when you finally accept that a game can be enjoyable despite not following the “classical” model.

Gilgalas.7860:

People are unhappy because they don’t get an extension, just as they are unhappy with everything that departs from their little habbits.
Yet I am very happy that ANet is willing to experiment with a lot of new things with GW2. That is how we will have fresh air and hopefully an end to an endless stream of empty WoW clones.

Had not nature experimented for 3.5B years, there would not be anything more than bacteria around.

The problem with your statement is GW2 moved far closer towards being a World of Warcraft clone than GW1 was. Several formulas changed: Ascended Armor/Weapons/Gear (more vertical progression despite being fairly optional), open world zerg versus zerg PVP for objectives, and open world zerg based PVE. (world versus world/open world bosses/meta-events).

Whereas GW1 had a maximum of 8 players in most common PVE maps, and 12 in elite PVE, and 24 in highest population PvE modes. But yes, GW2 aimed to be more of an MMO style than GW1… but that also means its more of a WoW clone.

Gilgalas.7860:

I have yet to see a game which expansion keeps me really busy more than one month, while LS kept me busy for one year.

And as someone mentioned elsewhere, keeping on adding new content just dilutes the playerbase overtime. What they are doing here is smart in that they keep the playerbase focused on ever changing content, hence reinforcing the feeling of taking part to a MASSIVELYmorpg.

Just show me another MMORPG where you can consistantly find hundreds of players playing the same content at once for one year.

To me it is quite obvious that ANet has chosen the path of emphasizing player cooperation through massive events, be it PvE or WvW. I won’t say it is a good nor bad choice, it is a matter of personal taste. But for the moment they don’t show sign of departure from that line since the release and you should better spend your energy adapting to it than crying on the forum. You will start enjoying it after a while, when you finally accept that a game can be enjoyable despite not following the “classical” model.

People aren’t crying simply because it doesn’t follow a classical model, they’re complaining because they did a very poor job with their non-classical model.

People are complaining about the storyline, because it was poorly written. People are complaining about the characters, because many (not all) were underdeveloped, bland, Mary-sue types, or trite. People are complaining about LS being zerg after zerg, because almost every patch was based on large groups of people spamming skills indiscriminately and occasionally dodging, with a few exceptions based on instances and a couple of bosses (teq upgrade, marionette).

Its not a “you shouldn’t have done this at all” its a “you did so bad with it you should’ve just done it the old way, and if you’re going to continue doing it this badly you should just go back to the old way”.

If they had done it well the complaints would either not exist or not with the vitriol that they do. Just because its an experiment, doesn’t mean you won’t get bad feedback for not doing it well.

Enokitake.1742:

Whereas GW1 had a maximum of 8 players in most common PVE maps, and 12 in elite PVE, and 24 in highest population PvE modes. But yes, GW2 aimed to be more of an MMO style than GW1… but that also means its more of a WoW clone.

So you’re unhappy about everything including the genre choice? In that case why not to play some other CORPG’s like Monster Hunter?

Mirta.5029:

Enokitake.1742:

Whereas GW1 had a maximum of 8 players in most common PVE maps, and 12 in elite PVE, and 24 in highest population PvE modes. But yes, GW2 aimed to be more of an MMO style than GW1… but that also means its more of a WoW clone.

So you’re unhappy about everything including the genre choice? In that case why not to play some other CORPG’s like Monster Hunter?

No, I’m simply pointing out the truth: GW2 is far more like WoW than GW1 was, so its somewhat contradictory to say ANet was moving away from a WoW style game in GW2. That… doesn’t make sense. They are doing some things differently, but it’s still closer.

Enokitake.1742:

Gilgalas.7860:

People are unhappy because they don’t get an extension, just as they are unhappy with everything that departs from their little habbits.
Yet I am very happy that ANet is willing to experiment with a lot of new things with GW2. That is how we will have fresh air and hopefully an end to an endless stream of empty WoW clones.

Had not nature experimented for 3.5B years, there would not be anything more than bacteria around.

The problem with your statement is GW2 moved far closer towards being a World of Warcraft clone than GW1 was. Several formulas changed: Ascended Armor/Weapons/Gear (more vertical progression despite being fairly optional), open world zerg versus zerg PVP for objectives, and open world zerg based PVE. (world versus world/open world bosses/meta-events).

Whereas GW1 had a maximum of 8 players in most common PVE maps, and 12 in elite PVE, and 24 in highest population PvE modes. But yes, GW2 aimed to be more of an MMO style than GW1… but that also means its more of a WoW clone.

Gilgalas.7860:

I have yet to see a game which expansion keeps me really busy more than one month, while LS kept me busy for one year.

And as someone mentioned elsewhere, keeping on adding new content just dilutes the playerbase overtime. What they are doing here is smart in that they keep the playerbase focused on ever changing content, hence reinforcing the feeling of taking part to a MASSIVELYmorpg.

Just show me another MMORPG where you can consistantly find hundreds of players playing the same content at once for one year.

To me it is quite obvious that ANet has chosen the path of emphasizing player cooperation through massive events, be it PvE or WvW. I won’t say it is a good nor bad choice, it is a matter of personal taste. But for the moment they don’t show sign of departure from that line since the release and you should better spend your energy adapting to it than crying on the forum. You will start enjoying it after a while, when you finally accept that a game can be enjoyable despite not following the “classical” model.

People aren’t crying simply because it doesn’t follow a classical model, they’re complaining because they did a very poor job with their non-classical model.

People are complaining about the storyline, because it was poorly written. People are complaining about the characters, because many (not all) were underdeveloped, bland, Mary-sue types, or trite. People are complaining about LS being zerg after zerg, because almost every patch was based on large groups of people spamming skills indiscriminately and occasionally dodging, with a few exceptions based on instances and a couple of bosses (teq upgrade, marionette).

Its not a “you shouldn’t have done this at all” its a “you did so bad with it you should’ve just done it the old way, and if you’re going to continue doing it this badly you should just go back to the old way”.

If they had done it well the complaints would either not exist or not with the vitriol that they do. Just because its an experiment, doesn’t mean you won’t get bad feedback for not doing it well.

This game tries far to hard to be different.

An old saying comes to mind, “If it ain’t broke don’t fix it”.

There is a reason why more traditional style mmorpgs have 10x’s(generalization) the population of gw2. Looking back – they seemingly have focused on their efforts on being different instead of perhaps focusing them on being fun and rewarding.

Enokitake.1742:

No, I’m simply pointing out the truth: GW2 is far more like WoW than GW1 was, so its somewhat contradictory to say ANet was moving away from a WoW style game in GW2. That… doesn’t make sense. They are doing some things differently, but it’s still closer.

but what you named is “closer to WoW” is the games genre.
Other than that how about let’s look at GW1 – WoW comparison? Old school combat style for example, check. Healers, tanks, damagers? Check. 10 man instances? Check.

I seem to notice a few patterns of people who are against the LS and gem store and te way the game is going. I’ve been playing since GW1 and honestly, out of all the MMO’s out there i don’t see a difference in our LS and any other game with the patched added content, plenty of games add content every so often like that, be it temporary or not, big or small. This is something that keeps the game form going completely stale. Also people might be saying that the LS is just a way to push gem store items and pushing the micro-transactional sales and looking to make money. First of all, almost every game out there anymore has a micro-transaction economy, and even more so when it’s a no subscription game, and it’s even worse when a game does have a Premium membership program. Difference in our cash shop i will call it. Is that first of all, there is no requirement at all to do anything with it to play the game, it’s mostly cosmetics and boosters, also if they were pushing so hard to make the sale on gem shops, why would they make it so you can trade your in game currency for it? especially after they released the very farm heavy champ chests. That’s something else people have a problem with, The heavy zerg farming and zerg rushing events, stop blaming developers for that and blame ourselves for that kind of thing, because you don’t need to zerg rush anything in this game accept to face off against another zerg. every event That I have seen 50 people mash up on i have done tactfully with 10 or fewer, including taking on scarlets knights. I have slapped my banners on SM with as few as three people, mind you it takes quite a bit more effort, but it’s entirely do able and honestly, more fun anyway. I understand the frustrations that come with bugs, new patches, and failing events. But there is no solid evidence that this is a bad game, just a lot of bad mouths. and when it comes to the player organization, especially in chains of commanders and zergs and such, to many chiefs, not enough indians. the only validity in trying to down this game is that I too, hope for an actual true expansion at some point, be it new class, new race, or new continent, it would definitely be a good hook to bring people back to the game. Now, that seems to me that the anticipation in waiting for that, is a real cash push, not the gem store.

Mirta.5029:

but what you named is “closer to WoW” is the games genre.
Other than that how about let’s look at GW1 – WoW comparison? Old school combat style for example, check. Healers, tanks, damagers? Check. 10 man instances? Check.

No. They purposefully moved GW2 closer to WoW:
1) More vertical progression and grinding for gear, see ascended,
2) More open world zerg PVP combat (world versus world)
3) More open world zerg non-instanced PVE content
4) More cartoonish game art style
5) More cartoonish racial selections (granted they wisely don’t lock you into a faction)

WoW came out 6 months before GW1. Neither intentionally attempted to clone the other. When GW2 was in development, WoW had already set the standard in profits and MMO design. GW2 moved closer to WoW style for obvious reasons: $ and player base.

I do HM clears with a full party of light armor classes, literally no tanks. Holy trinity is not essential in GW1 unless you want it.

Lastly, all of GW1 had 8 man instances. Literally every PVE map outside of starter zones was almost a 10 man instance… so that’s completely irreverent.

Enokitake.1742:

1) More vertical progression and grinding for gear, see ascended,

Was present in GW1
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Prestige_armor

Enokitake.1742:

2) More open world zerg PVP combat (world versus world)
3) More open world zerg non-instanced PVE content

Present in all MMOs and goes with massively multiplayer.

Enokitake.1742:

4) More cartoonish game art style

http://wiki.guildwars.com/images/thumb/f/fe/Asura.jpg/175px-Asura.jpg
I can see how this wasn’t cartoonish.

Enokitake.1742:

5) More cartoonish racial selections (granted they wisely don’t lock you into a faction)

So the fact that we can be other races that were present in Guild Wars 1 and not just humans, makes it WoW?

You’re seeing WoW where you want to see WoW and completely ignoring how Guild Wars 1 can be just as ridiculously compared to it. I’m saying ridiculously, because most of your complaints of how the game is WoW are coming from the game being an MMO. With that way of thinking every MMO is WoW, every FPS is Call of Duty, every RPG is Mass Effect and so on.

Any gw1 player knows Prestige armor, AKA 15k/obsidian/vabbian armor, had no performance difference over regular armor. The only difference was their skin, the base defensive stats were the same. Therefore there was no vertical difference. Copied directly from your link:

Prestige armor is no different from any other max armor apart from its appearance and cost.

Ascended gear was added, alongside a long grind time, over a year after GW2’s release to keep/attract/placate vertical grinders from other games who are used to constantly grinding for the next tier of gear. It has a big enough difference to be attractive to min/maxers, but not so huge you automatically lose if you don’t have it.

Asura were added in EOTN, alongside Norn, and the plotline which became the Slyvari, as a business decision that would be used in GW2 as playable races. EOTN was the expansion that set the ground for GW2, in august 2007 release. Those 3 things did not exist until ANet wanted to “get competive” with other MMOs, and especially blizzard, by adding playable races… Their addition was a business decision in order to attract more players from other MMOs to the franchise especially WoW. Only the Charr existed before, so they were a natural addition to the selection… they only needed a storyline that set them at peace with the humans to connect those dots.

So the fact that we can be other races that were present in Guild Wars 1 and not just humans, makes it WoW?

No, but in combination with the other things, it makes it closer, which was the point. Notice they didn’t exist until 2.5 years+ into GW1 and weren’t playable until GW2? It became more like WoW to capture money and playerbase as a business decision, which was probably hammered in by NCsoft, which owns Anet… and to some degree Nexon which is affiliated.

Enokitake.1742:

No, but in combination with the other things, it makes it closer, which was the point. It became more like WoW to capture money and playerbase as a business decision, which was probably hammered in by NCsoft, which owns Anet… and to some degree Nexon which is affiliated.

In my opinion you have no point, because you’re talking about:
1. Normal MMO mechanics that are in all MMOs and WoW wasn’t the first one to do them.
2. Things that WoW isn’t heavy on (see open world PVE. It has world bosses sure, but nowhere near as much as Everquest. WoW is very instanced in its end game (just like GW1 was! See I can make ridiculous claims as well!))
3. Updated Art style that is actually realistic rather than cartoonish. (look at the human proportions, compare them to real life humans and then compare them to WoW humans)
Combination with other things makes it an MMO. So like I said your point is that it’s an MMO. If you don’t like MMOs CORPG market has expanded greatly since the times of GW1.
4. Multiple playable races that every single fantasy RPG and MMO in existence were heavy on, because to simply put humans are boring. (See Dragon Age, Elder Scrolls series, pretty much all fantasy MMOs for reference)

Vol.7601:

Your first sentence ruined your credibility for this post.

Won’t lie, I stopped reading when I saw that.

Mirta.5029:

In my opinion you have no point, because you’re talking about:
1. Normal MMO mechanics that are in all MMOs and WoW wasn’t the first one to do them.
2. Things that WoW isn’t heavy on (see open world PVE. It has world bosses sure, but nowhere near as much as Everquest. WoW is very instanced in its end game (just like GW1 was! See I can make ridiculous claims as well!))
3. Updated Art style that is actually realistic rather than cartoonish. (look at the human proportions, compare them to real life humans and then compare them to WoW humans)
Combination with other things makes it an MMO. So like I said your point is that it’s an MMO. If you don’t like MMOs CORPG market has expanded greatly since the times of GW1.
4. Multiple playable races that every single fantasy RPG and MMO in existence were heavy on, because to simply put humans are boring. (See Dragon Age, Elder Scrolls series, pretty much all fantasy MMOs for reference)

Note that I’ve never said GW2 was a perfect WoW clone. Merely far closer to being one than GW1 was, both due to genre and design.

1) Yes, they may exist in all MMOs, but WoW set the profit/performance standard for all MMO’s in the last decade, so its natural to take after said MMO in design queues if you want to boost profit. Guild wars 1 had roughly 4-6 million players at peak. WoW topped out at what? 8 million? 9 million? The most I’ve ever heard was 12 million. Everquest never even got slightly close to either of those numbers. Few hundred thousand at best.

2) WoW took certain queues from Everquest, which was a whole 5 years before WoW. But, WoW has no were near as many instances as GW1 did… the entire game was instanced. There was NO open world at all. So your assertion falls flat, and is somewhat ridiculous. GW1 and Wow released only 6 months apart, so its highly unlikely they changed the game substantially in development to beat WoW

3) The proportions on Humans are fairly realistic… but the other races are entirely cartoonish, and they did not exist at the start of gw1, besides charr. They were added because another game with multiple playable races did far better than GW1 2 years after release… and is the game it was most compared to for years… and they wanted to catch up.

4) See 3.

Enokitake.1742:

1) Yes, they may exist in all MMOs, but WoW set the profit/performance standard for all MMO’s in the last decade, so its natural to take after said MMO in design queues if you want to boost profit. Guild wars 1 had roughly 4-6 million players at peak. WoW topped out at what? 8 million? 9 million? The most I’ve ever heard was 12 million. Everquest never even got slightly close to either of those numbers. Few hundred thousand at best.

IF you know that this existed in all MMOs and continues to exist in all MMOs, then attaching it directly to WoW is simply foolish.

Enokitake.1742:

2) WoW took certain queues from Everquest, which was a whole 5 years before WoW. But, WoW has no were near as many instances as GW1 did… the entire game was instanced. There was NO open world at all. So your assertion falls flat, and is somewhat ridiculous. GW1 and Wow released only 6 months apart, so its highly unlikely they changed the game substantially in development to beat WoW

And like I said, you’re talking about world’s first CORPG there that is not the same as an MMO. However if you take the amount of world bosses GW2 has, the amount of instances GW2 has, the amount of world bosses Everquest had, the amount of instances Everquest had and the amount of instanced GW1 had, GW2 would be closer to Everquest than to WoW and WoW would be closer to Guild Wars 1. So why use an MMO that does not fit your argument?

Enokitake.1742:

3) The proportions on Humans are fairly realistic… but the other races are entirely cartoonish, and they did not exist at the start of gw1, besides charr. They were added because another game with multiple playable races did far better than GW1… and is the game it was most compared to for years.

If the proportions are realistic then you’re talking about a completely different art style all together, no matter the amount of races. And like I already said, it’s hard to find a single RPG or an MMO that would be mono race, because to simply put mono raced games are boring. They have no variety and people tend to like variety. Once again it has nothing to do with WoW.

Mirta.5029:

IF you know that this existed in all MMOs and continues to exist in all MMOs, then attaching it directly to WoW is simply foolish.

Actually, for a simple reason it is not: Profit.

GW1 did not move towards MMO style because EQ or most MMOs outsold it. GW1 had 4-6 million players. WoW had between 8 and 12. Thats around 2x times the number over its life. WoW was essentially the only store-box MMO that outsold GW1 and proceeded to make a killing on subscriptions.

You’re looking at their decision as an art form. It was a business decision. They abandoned the CORPG platform because they thought they could make WoW style profit if they were just a little more similar to WoW.

Mirta.5029:

And like I said, you’re talking about world’s first CORPG there that is not the same as an MMO. However if you take the amount of world bosses GW2 has, the amount of instances GW2 has, the amount of world bosses Everquest had, the amount of instances Everquest had and the amount of instanced GW1 had, GW2 would be closer to Everquest than to WoW and WoW would be closer to Guild Wars 1. So why use an MMO that does not fit your argument?

Because GW1 and WoW are far less similiar than WoW and GW2, or WoW and Everquest in system/world/concept design… which is where your argument falls apart.
That’s obvious to anyone who played GW1’s systems for years.

GW1 had literally no open world. Not just a little, none. Entirely instanced. Entirely just your party of 4-12 players on the map, always. You never see someone outside your party except in PVP arenas, which cap out at 24 for alliance battles, and are usually 4v4 or 8v8.

WoW even having an open world makes it closer to GW2 than GW1, because what you’re talking about doesn’t even exist in GW1.

If the proportions are realistic then you’re talking about a completely different art style all together, no matter the amount of races. And like I already said, it’s hard to find a single RPG or an MMO that would be mono race, because to simply put mono raced games are boring. They have no variety and people tend to like variety. Once again it has nothing to do with WoW.

The art style in GW2 is far different than the art style at the beginning of GW1: More cartoonish. If it were a linear progression, the line of gw1 to gw2 art style is becoming more cartoonish over time, most noticeably in eye of the north, when asura and norn were added. The fact that one race was done semi-realistically does not eliminate the rest of the game increasing cartoon art style.

Especially when you consider it was only done after it was obvious WoW was winning the player-base and profit number race.

Enokitake.1742:

You’re looking at their decision as an art form. It was a business decision. They abandoned the CORPG platform because they thought they could make WoW style profit if they were just a little more similar to WoW.

Or, you know, they had enough money to expand and wanted to make a proper MMO. Why does everything have to be a conspiracy theory?

Enokitake.1742:

GW1 had literally no open world.

There’s no MMO without open world. Hence GW1 not being an MMO. It’s the same as saying Battlefield is like COD because it has guns.

The art style in GW2 is far different than the art style at the beginning of GW1: More cartoonish. If it were a linear progression, the line of gw1 to gw2 art style is becoming more cartoonish over time, most noticeably in eye of the north, when asura and norn were added. The fact that one race was done semi-realistically does not eliminate the rest of the game increasing cartoon art style for the rest of the game.

Actually it’s just GW1 graphics updated and made brighter. And once again you need your eyes checked if you think that that’s how WoW looks.

Mirta.5029:

Or, you know, they had enough money to expand and wanted to make a proper MMO. Why does everything have to be a conspiracy theory?

Proper business isn’t a conspiracy theory. Its business. You adapt to your market’s preference to hope you do better financial. GW1’s transition to GW2 is what that adaptation looks like.

There’s no MMO without open world. Hence GW1 not being an MMO.

Which is why…

Mirta.5029:

GW2 would be closer to Everquest than to WoW and WoW would be closer to Guild Wars 1.

…you saying WoW is closer to GW1 than it is to GW2 made no sense just now. WoW can’t be more like GW1 than GW2 if it lacks an open world.

Actually it’s just GW1 graphics updated and made brighter. And once again you need your eyes checked if you think that that’s how WoW looks.

Not even slightly. Again, the cartoonish elements (norn, asura) didn’t even exist until they began transitioning GW1 into GW2 with EOTN in 2007, to prepare players for GW2. Sylvari came in GW2.

The “painted” art style of the world, cut scenes, cinematics, and graphics UI did not exist in GW1, and were introduced in GW2. They clearly moved towards animated styles… and as a result, more cartoonish. WoW is and has been cartoonish from launch.

And as someone who played GW1 for 7 years, the art style is not simply gw1 updated. The Tengu and Dredge for a quick example, look substantially different than they did in GW1, in addition to everything else I said.

Enokitake.1742:

…you saying WoW is closer to GW1 than it is to GW2 made no sense just now. WoW can’t be more like GW1 than GW2 if it lacks an open world.

What I said was that any other MMO would be closer to GW2, than WoW. WoW is a really bad comparison, because just as many points can be drawn between WoW and GW1.
- combat
- trinity
- 10 player dungeons
- release date
- the existence of expansions

I could draw points day and night. The same way that you can draw points between RPGs and MMOs even though they’re not of the same genre.

Mirta.5029:

What I said was that any other MMO would be closer to GW2, than WoW. WoW is a really bad comparison, because just as many points can be drawn between WoW and GW1. except they can’t:
- combat – 8 Skill selection, duo-class system, doesn’t apply.
- trinity – classes aren’t even slightly type locked in gw1, you could easily clear with only light armor classes thanks to secondary class system
- 10 player dungeons – gw1 was 8 players for almost all content no open world. its not just dungeons. Wow had open world… so nope here too.
- release date – you can’t copy a game thats released only 6 months before yours, not enough development time.
- the existence of expansions – WoW released its first expansion 2-3 years after release. GW1 released its expansion 1 year later, then another 1.5 years later, then another 1 year after that… almost all of it was released before wow’s first expansion.

I could draw points day and night. The same way that you can draw points between RPGs and MMOs even though they’re not of the same genre.

And you’d still be wrong. GW1 did not copy WoW. Its not even close.

Enokitake.1742:

And you’d still be wrong. GW1 did not copy WoW. Its not even close.

In the same light GW2 did not copy WoW. If you were into the MMO genre you would notice how far apart they are from each other. Blame GW2 for anything you want, but one thing that it managed is not to be a WoW clone.

Previously to it the most un-like WoW game probably was Tera with its emphasis on world bosses and a unique combat system. And yet the nodes were shared, loot from enemies was not shared (so is the loot in Guild Wars 1! Only one member from your party will get loot from one mob. Just like in WoW), quests were the classic type (so are the quests of Guild Wars 1 by the way. You know, the ones that have a very clear exclamation mark and are also present in WoW and pretty much all of the classic MMOs), mounts existed, etc.

What a depressing view of game the OP has. The LS is great, new content every 2 weeks and recently its been some of the best stuff yet. Sure the writing has been poor but I’m sure that will improve. The Gemstore is there to support the game and I have no issues with the way they are trying to keep this game going.

Not only that you can still exchange gold for gems. So even if you are broke you can still get whatever you want IF you put the time and effort into the game.

Mirta.5029:

Enokitake.1742:

And you’d still be wrong. GW1 did not copy WoW. Its not even close.

In the same light GW2 did not copy WoW. If you were into the MMO genre you would notice how far apart they are from each other. Blame GW2 for anything you want, but one thing that it managed is not to be a WoW clone.

GW2 doesn’t have to be a perfect WoW Clone: It only has to have moved substantially closer to WoW than GW1 was (which it did) and to take easily identifiable design queues from the game (which it also did) after guild wars 1 was outsold by WoW by a ratio of 2 to 1, which gives them motivation to do so. Your list of easily refuted points only go to prove GW1 is further away from WoW than GW2 is, which backs up my point.

It’s literally that simple.

Enokitake.1742:

GW2 doesn’t have to be a perfect WoW Clone: It only has to have moved substantially closer to WoW than GW1 was (which it did) and to take easily identifiable design queues from the game (which it also did) after guild wars 1 was outsold by WoW by a ratio of 2 to 1, which gives them motivation to do so. Your list of easily refuted points only go to prove GW1 is further away from WoW than GW2 is, which backs up my point.

It’s literally that simple.

Your point essentially boils down to “it’s an MMO therefore closer” though. If it was a strategy would you claim that it’s trying to compete and outsell Starcraft? If it was a shooter would it suddenly be a Battlefield clone?
Yes it moved closer by becoming an MMO. It also moved closer to Runescape. And Tera. And Perfect World. And Everquest. And Ragnarok Online. And millions of other games, simply because now it’s classed as the same genre as them.

And my initial point still stands. If you don’t like MMO as a genre, why don’t you play a CORPG instead of sitting in the forums?

Mirta.5029:

Your point essentially boils down to “it’s an MMO therefore closer” though. If it was a strategy would you claim that it’s trying to compete and outsell Starcraft? If it was a shooter would it suddenly be a Battlefield clone?
Yes it moved closer by becoming an MMO. It also moved closer to Runescape. And Tera. And Perfect World. And Everquest. And Ragnarok Online. And millions of other games, simply because now it’s classed as the same genre as them.

And my initial point still stands. If you don’t like MMO as a genre, why don’t you play a CORPG instead of sitting in the forums?

Wait, Who said I don’t like MMO’s as a genre?

I played RO for 3 years as a SinX/Lord Knight/Stalker, I played TERA in korean and NA on valley titans (pre-merge) as a warrior/slayer, I played Aion since launch as an assassin (then gunslinger) on Old Vaizel, new Vaizel, and Tiamat, I beta’d ESO as a nightblade, I played rift for a month before i stopped caring… Edit: and obviously i’ve played GW1 since factions (7 year birthday highest) and GW2 since launch.

You’re operating on a false premise you have absolutely no idea about.

I’m not saying its more like WoW because “I hate mmos”, i’m saying it because it’s blatently more like WoW, than gw1 was for a very obvious reasons.

Notice I’m not saying its like all the other game’s I’ve played?

There’s a reason for that.

Living Story might’ve shot GW2 in the foot at many times, but the past few updates have certainly done it justice.

Treahearne couldn’t even save this thread.

Mirta.5029:

Enokitake.1742:

Whereas GW1 had a maximum of 8 players in most common PVE maps, and 12 in elite PVE, and 24 in highest population PvE modes. But yes, GW2 aimed to be more of an MMO style than GW1… but that also means its more of a WoW clone.

So you’re unhappy about everything including the genre choice? In that case why not to play some other CORPG’s like Monster Hunter?

Not available to me. Or I’d be all over that like skritt on shinies.

No it’s not worth it.

The living story is an interesting concept, but I don’t see it as the main driving force in this game. It’s an ok side story, though. Personally, I think ArenaNet is better off adding & improving to the dynamic event system, personal story & dungeons.

Zylonite.5913:

Vol.7601:

Your first sentence ruined your credibility for this post.

So have you seen the patch notes today? Half of it is on new gem store items….BTW it it makes you feel any better being the judge of my credibility then be it….

I think he was talking about you using we instead of I. an individual can only speak about their opinions in arguments and imposing there opinion on others weakens there arguments. The saying that all assumptions are incorrect including this one is prity accurate. Also if you want to strengthen your argument about this poll the community and try to kill LS if you want. U got no statistics backing you.

But Anet are using the game statistics to determine what players want and give it to them.

This was a critique on how you argue not what you argue

I think Anet put the Climax in the wrong spot. But i think people are grouping the living story events wrong, That scarlets should be put in one set and others like Teq and four winds should be placed in a separate living story grouping occuring simultaneously.

For people who don’t know everything in LS comes back as fractals so it is all permanent content we will eventually get. So idea that all LS content is temp simply isn’t true. Anyway you cant diss something coming when you don’t know what is coming and I think there is a positive trend in LS quality and if it persists it should be pretty interesting.

I like living world. Imo without it, the game would be dead already. People get bored without new content and they get bored with any new content even faster. Living world gives the game a constant flow of things to do, a new carrot to chase every 2 weeks just in case you get bored with one carrot, it is replaced with another.

The best MMORPG game is the one you can play forever until the end of your life. Most of the games acheve this with vertical progression, giving players a new goals every some period of time and when players get it, they add new stuff to go for. I can’t say it’s a bad design, I played many games like this, having fun with friends on TS while doing the same dungeon 1000th time. You can say that I could do this dungeon 1000th time even without progression – it’s true, I could, but I wouldn’t because there would be no reason to do it. This is how GW2 made me bored shortly after release. After playing for a month, finishing all dungeons once, I didn’t feel like repeating them. Doing these dungeons couldn’t give me anything, that I didn’t already have. I have left GW2 and returned to my previous heavy-vertical-progression game.

I gave another chance to GW2 when they introduced ascended weapons. I was like: “yea, they are adding progression to the game, I might give it a try”. As you can see, I’m playing now longer than a month. I met some friends, we are playing together and having fun on TS, just like in progression games. I think that living world added progression-like feel to the game without constant vertical progression (because ascended is one-time only, and when we all get it, there won’t be vertical progression anymore). We are making parties for LW, fighting the bosses together wih guildies and trying to get as much unique stuff as possible.

One more thing, do you remember LW update with scarlet’s invasions? When it was added to the game, we got an overflowfest. A lot of players were doing them. ArenaNet left these invasions in game even after LW, and just look how many players are doing them now. I don’t think that leaving all this stuff in game would make LW more interesting than it is now.

About the gem store: Imo they can add every new skin into the gem store. As long as they don’t give us potions to deal more damage or permanent power-ups, then they can go this way. The only pay-to-win thing in GW2 is that you can buy gems for real money, sell them for gold and insta-buy legendary weapon. Imo it should be accound bound, the same way as the ascended is, but as long as they will not add more top-tier-not-account-bound-stuff, I can deal with it.

Reasumming, LW is a really well designed. Maybe you could play the game without it, yet you can still play it even with it. On the other hand I wouldn’t play the game that offers me nothing to play for and LW gives me a feel of progression in the game without progression, so instead of 1 happy customer, AN got 1 unhappy but still playing and 1 happy.

Enokitake.1742:

Mirta.5029:

siralius.9517:

The last time Anet did an improvement to GW2 that wasn’t blatantly geared to you using the gemstore was when they put the game on store shelves. Everything since then has been nothing more than half hearted attempts at getting ppl to use real life money. These LS’s are sorry excuses for content.

really?
So new PvP maps
new WvW map
a new zone
achievement rewards
daily rewards
LFG
new fractals
fractals
new bosses
old bosses redone
boss rewards
champion rewards
etc
do not count? There were like a million quality of life updates and you did not see a single one?

People won’t care about this for a very simple reason: Its not enough quality of life. They want an expansion.

No, the current game crowd is spoiled to hell and back.
F2P game, bi-weekly updates, new stuff on a regular basis.

Unbelievable. And it’s not just here, 90% of the games currently in existance have poisoned forums, filled to the brim with nothing but whines and complaints of the entitled, disgruntled and bandwagoneers – a few exceptions here and there.
Decent posts make up maybe 20% of the forums as a whole.

Disturbing really, this want-have-must-get mentality.

Enokitake.1742:

Wait, Who said I don’t like MMO’s as a genre?

I played RO for 3 years as a SinX/Lord Knight/Stalker, I played TERA in korean and NA on valley titans (pre-merge) as a warrior/slayer, I played Aion since launch as an assassin (then gunslinger) on Old Vaizel, new Vaizel, and Tiamat, I beta’d ESO as a nightblade, I played rift for a month before i stopped caring… Edit: and obviously i’ve played GW1 since factions (7 year birthday highest) and GW2 since launch.

You’re operating on a false premise you have absolutely no idea about.

I’m not saying its more like WoW because “I hate mmos”, i’m saying it because it’s blatently more like WoW, than gw1 was for a very obvious reasons.

Notice I’m not saying its like all the other game’s I’ve played?

There’s a reason for that.

Did you actually play WoW? As a long time MMO player that also played WoW I simply can’t connect GW2 with WoW. They’re as different as night and day.

There is a group of players who really hate the idea of the gem store. I feel like you all are thinking about it wrong. It’s not about greed, or else these wouldn’t just be cosmetic and convenience items. It’s more like they are holding a bake sale so they can keep developing their game.

Zylonite.5913:

We are starting to see that the living story (illusion of content) is nothing more than an advertisement for the gem store and it is slowly killing the game.

An exaggeration at best. Sure you might be burning out but come an expansion for Elona, Cantha, or what have you – what’s to say people aren’t going to come back in droves? The cool thing the Living Story does that people often take for granted is it shows there’s a development team creating these scenarios where often times you hear the argument that only P2Ps can get content updates.

Stone.6751:

There is a group of players who really hate the idea of the gem store. I feel like you all are thinking about it wrong. It’s not about greed, or else these wouldn’t just be cosmetic and convenience items. It’s more like they are holding a bake sale so they can keep developing their game.

Too bad they don’t have cheesecake bites, and their mystery cookie bags aren’t all that much fun. Too many coconut cookies in them, not enough macaroons.

I don’t hate the idea of the gem store for this reason. I just wish they’d get a better distribution of skin releases between the gem store and “you can earn this”.

His first sentence Isn’t exactly false every new living story is taken as an opportunity to roll out more gem store items while offering usually fewer new items to be obtained outside of buying gems whether you buy them with gold/cash. Also it usually does seem like the new gem items get more love than the new non-gem items