Guild Wars 2

The library I liked best. First, the beautifully designed room, then the many books that were reminiscent of stories and characters from GW1, and the many small things that make the scene alive (the little Asura, who can not reach the book of Asura Krus, the reaction of NPCs “ssh” if you talk to other NPCs, etc.). In addition, I noticed that the name of my character is even mentioned in one of the books. Wow.

Very good, I like the interaction of the NPCs at Camp Resolve. This seems vivid and sometimes really funny.

Finally, I hope that Canach will stay with us for a long time. I really like him and do not believe that he is the bad boy, as he is always shown.

These are just some of the things that I find positive and I am looking forward to the continuation of the story.

(I hope I’ve made myself clear, but my native language is not English.)

Hidden Arcana was amazing. To begin with, the map was beautiful and really felt alive. That poor sylvari that had to get the item manifests ran around the corner and cried! The library was full of GW1 lore, which is great, and Glint’s Lair really captured the spirit of the GW1 mission while still changing it up in an enjoyable way. Overall, this one step is the highlight of the story so far.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Another example, would be Nick’s book about the Bloodstone – how could Nick know this stuff? I mean, the Priory had to learn it from somewhere, sure, and it’s plausible Nicholas Sandford could know the Seer’s ties to the Bloodstone and the truth of Abaddon’s gift of magic, but the chances of that are so unlikely even given his travels and ties to Durmand.

The description says “Notes taken by a young Nicholas in discussion with his friend Durmond”.

At last! (yeah – I know post is over month old – it slipped me before)
I can’t say I know lot about Leah Hoyer work, because I don’t know a skritt, but that’s much desired change. Story departament in Anet was really lacking on… well, let me say – profesionalism, from a lack o better word.
If this new Narrative Design Director was involved in improving LS season 2 storytelling, I need to say – good work. Hire more people like her (fire LS season 1 staff if needed, or at least consider it if not needed), and hire people like this to other departaments..

Wizzlock.3492:

If this new Narrative Design Director was involved in improving LS season 2 storytelling, I need to say – good work. Hire more people like her (fire LS season 1 staff if needed, or at least consider it if not needed), and hire people like this to other departaments..

No, no no. Don’t fire them, put them to work learning why she works this way and trying to do better.

Still playing through the episode (up to Caithe’s Recon now), but I like very much what I’m seeing so far. Going around and talking to all the NPCs at the Pact camp was great atmosphere building, as well as giving us a chance to catch up again with Destiny’s Edge and Trahearne. I also loved the little bits of personalisation in the dialogue (being able to put that “Soldier” in his place as a Charr was SO satisfying).

I do think the Fort Salma instance seemed a bit out of place though. I mean, how come Marjory and Kasmeer just show up out of nowhere just when you need them? Didn’t you already send them to the Priory to research? I did like the story told purely through Marjory’s animations and expressions though; that was very well done.

Underdark.3726:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Another example, would be Nick’s book about the Bloodstone – how could Nick know this stuff? I mean, the Priory had to learn it from somewhere, sure, and it’s plausible Nicholas Sandford could know the Seer’s ties to the Bloodstone and the truth of Abaddon’s gift of magic, but the chances of that are so unlikely even given his travels and ties to Durmand.

The description says “Notes taken by a young Nicholas in discussion with his friend Durmond”.

I’m aware of this. But that doesn’t answer my question of how Nicholas – especially a young Nicholas – could learn things long hidden from human history for centuries/millenniums.

Also: I don’t think Nicholas knew Durmand until after the Searing – he was no longer “young” then.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Underdark.3726:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Another example, would be Nick’s book about the Bloodstone – how could Nick know this stuff? I mean, the Priory had to learn it from somewhere, sure, and it’s plausible Nicholas Sandford could know the Seer’s ties to the Bloodstone and the truth of Abaddon’s gift of magic, but the chances of that are so unlikely even given his travels and ties to Durmand.

The description says “Notes taken by a young Nicholas in discussion with his friend Durmond”.

I’m aware of this. But that doesn’t answer my question of how Nicholas – especially a young Nicholas – could learn things long hidden from human history for centuries/millenniums.

Also: I don’t think Nicholas knew Durmand until after the Searing – he was no longer “young” then.

Depends on your definition of young

anyhow, it’s not completely out of the range of possibilites that his connection with Durmand led him to learn more about this. He was quite the traveler afterall, maybe his travels have led to him picking up some stories here or there are things that not many know off. (God i hope i’m talking about the right nicholas ^^ the one with the dolyak right? )

Yes i know this could be a bit of a stretch, but it’s not impossible.

Well he learned it from the conversation with Durmond. And those are just notes, it’s not a book. Wiki says he was an aspiring writer, so he thought what Durmand said to him was interesting and write it down so he could use it for a book he wanted to write. He probably had lots of notes about lots of stuff.

I have been really pleased with Season 2 of the living story. I love seeing the references back to Guild Wars 1 and I really like the introduction of new rewards. I have really enjoyed earning my luminescent shoulders. I am only one light armor skin away from getting them. I feel like making Caithe’s blossom available through bandit seal vendors made the luminescent shoulders really accessible to the entire player base. Some people might have gotten too frustrated with the story achievements, I have definitely been there before, and would just rather purchase the blossom. The only suggestion that I have is that I would either increase the drop rate of the episode specific currency (in this case, bandit seals), or drop the price of the shoulder skins. It has been rather dull grinding for the seals to purchase my last skin. I feel like players should earn 1000 seals no problem, but the second thousand gets kind of monotonous.

I largely missed out on Living Story season 1 for various reasons and while I have gotten myself caught up on the story through the internet, I would be willing to pay for those past episodes to actually play through them and bring my character up to speed instead of dropping my main character (and others I’m just getting to lvl. 80) right in the middle of season 2 with characters he knows and cares for very little.

One other suggestion I have is to bring back the voice actors for the player characters. I would like to see my character have some spoken dialogue and conversational cut scenes similar to those in my personal story.

All in all I have been extremely impressed with the quality of the content in the living world season 2. This last episode completely blew me away and left me wanting more. Every day I rush home from school to see if the next episode has been announced. You and the team are doing a fantastic job Leah! Keep it up!

Welcome, Leah, hope you enjoy your work at Arena.net. And am really glad that you actually read what playerbase has to say. Not that devs should always listen to us, but still.

I couldn’t read through all the thread, but suggestion and thoughts I have read, I mostly find agreable or understandable, unless it’s a Trahearne hate-train. The direction of the story is more than acceptable, it’s enjoyable most times, but the writing and the means of expression could be improved here and there. Little annoyances like “unified” dialogue for whatever race you are playing, completely disregarded personality choise during the character creation (charm, dignity and ferocity) result in a bad experience, I’d make an assumption, for players like me, who actually pay attention to the dialogues, be they written or voiceover. And, as said, any character you play as and experience living world chapters with sounds like a girly human, be it arrogant asura or brutal charr. I am sure there is no tech difficulty in creating some unique lines and reactions for each race and/or personality, taken in account there are not so many.

Also, I am tired of repeating this whenever I discuss GW2’s writing, it’s kinda wierd feel that random NPCs added with each living world chapter have more depth than biconics, with their broken leg dramas, out of place flirting and et cetera. I believe, subtle is a friend of good, but what we experienced in season 1 and the beginning of season 2 is downright terrible, in my humble opinion, and far from subtle. The only character among biconics I never had problems with and never wondered “what the heck is (s)he talking about, who wrote this line?!” is Tiami.

As someone said before me, GW2 still needs more cowbell.

My only criticism is that I never feel like the episodes are connected. Not one episode started where the first one ended. For example: last episode ended with the Pale Tree badly injured and in this episode there is barely any info on that. We don’t know if she is doing better, or is she still in the state we left her. When Rytlock jumped in the hole, the next episode started with some treachery in DR with no mention about Rytlock. Tho hole episode nobody said anything about him. A member of Destiny’s edge, a tribune of the Blood legion goes missing and nobody talks about it?
Connect more the episodes, don’t just throw new questions and mysteries with no further hints, speculations, even gossip (what’s happening to Minister Estelle?).

Underdark.3726:

My only criticism is that I never feel like the episodes are connected. Not one episode started where the first one ended. For example: last episode ended with the Pale Tree badly injured and in this episode there is barely any info on that. We don’t know if she is doing better, or is she still in the state we left her. When Rytlock jumped in the hole, the next episode started with some treachery in DR with no mention about Rytlock. Tho hole episode nobody said anything about him. A member of Destiny’s edge, a tribune of the Blood legion goes missing and nobody talks about it?
Connect more the episodes, don’t just throw new questions and mysteries with no further hints, speculations, even gossip (what’s happening to Minister Estelle?).

How comes that an issue? Even with Rytlock missing, you think any characters outside of Black Citadel would be interested in his whereabouts? Hardly. That’s how most series of that kind work to keep the interest: raise more and more questions, slowly solving the puzzle. To hear or read these things you want, you need a reason to hear them or stubled upon them – to be in particular place and particular time that is relevant to the storytelling. Story must progress, it shouldn’t start the same place it ended, taken in account that supposedly there is some time between those episodes, both real-time and game-time, technically speaking. If story takes place in, say, Black Citadel, there is a reason to talk about Rytlocks disappearance, as a, say, random conversation between blood legion soldiers. Otherwise, there is no reason to mention it, untill the right time comes.

Rox doesn’t have any interest to talk about Rytlock? Oh, my (supposed) brother fell in a hole. Hope he sends a postcard.
the PC (especially if is charr blood legion) have no interest in speaking of him?
As far as i see we tend to “forget” part of stories “until the right time comes”.

Leah Hoyer.9382:

Hi folks! Now that I’ve settled in a bit at ANet, I wanted to check in again on this thread. The first Living World episode that I was involved in, “Echoes of the Past,” has now been live for a few days. We’ve all been really pleased that people seem to be enjoying the story and content a lot. But I’d love to ask you all for more specifics. What were your favorite narrative moments? What did you like about the content? About the way it was told? And of course, I want to hear what you think we can still do better on.

Thanks in advance to everyone for their comments. I’m very excited to be part of such a great game, and to work with such an excellent team of creative people.

Thank you for bringing some of Guild Wars back to the Guild Wars universe. Thank you for not focusing the story on Kasmeer Marjory & Taimi. Thank you for not shoehorning in scenes trying to convince us Scarlet is cool. Please feel free to leave behind DE2.0 & make characters that actually feel like they belong in the Guild Wars universe & not in a teen squad justice cartoon.

Underdark.3726:

Rox doesn’t have any interest to talk about Rytlock? Oh, my (supposed) brother fell in a hole. Hope he sends a postcard.
the PC (especially if is charr blood legion) have no interest in speaking of him?
As far as i see we tend to “forget” part of stories “until the right time comes”.

Two major points, I noticed a few posts ago.
There is no real reason to mention it. Also, Charr prefer acting to speaking, and they can’t do anything about Rytlock’s disappearance. It seems you don’t realize that their psychology and behaviour patterns are very different from humans’. That may be a poor excuse, yet there is no real opportunity to talk about Rytlock, for kitten sake. There was no situation as of now, where this discussion (between whom, actually?) would fit anywhere. Braham and Rox could discuss it, during some mission that doesn’t invole fighting, say, like the one we had in the beginning of the season, in Scarlet’s lockout in Dry Top. They could mention it, for example, in background, while player character is reading something, for example, or when everything is done and they are left to themselves. But there, as far as I remember, was no such opportunity.

Second point, whish was mentioned, is unified dialogue, and this is an issue, indeed. That would make sense if you are Blood Legion and Rox may mention it during dialogue, totally agree, but so far we only had unique lines while interacting with something for engineer profession. Sigh.

We could get an mail from someone on how the search is going on, if there is actually a search. We have a bond with Rytlock, he thinks of us highly so someone could have send us a note on that. There are blood legions charr in camp Resolve who could have some ambient conversation in the instance.
“Did you heard anything new about our tribune?”
“The last thing I heard was that they were doing some research in the old Ascalon catacombs about the foefire, but they didn’t find anything useful.”
That for me would have been enough.
But, my initial post was not only about Rytlock, he was only an example.
How many time has passed since the attack on the grove? Do we have any information on the health of the Pale Tree? Was the dream damaged? Are the new born sylvari “damaged good”?
They can always find and/or create an opportunity for giving us hints. Just one line of conversation for me should be enough (if done properly )

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Wizzlock.3492:

If this new Narrative Design Director was involved in improving LS season 2 storytelling, I need to say – good work. Hire more people like her (fire LS season 1 staff if needed, or at least consider it if not needed), and hire people like this to other departaments..

No, no no. Don’t fire them, put them to work learning why she works this way and trying to do better.

I don’t know – I know so many talented writers who struggle and can’t get the job, and I see Anet writers, who can spill one good story in almost 2 years. Taking language barrier aside, I am confident enough in my own skills to do better. I’ve seen many people hereon forums with lot better stories than Anet team did. So I thnk it would be better and cheaper for Anet to hire people with imagination, than to teach their own writers to do the job. Alas! Imagination is so hard to learn…

“Okay. I won’t pry. Changing the subject. You had any word about Rytlock?”

Rox: “No. I plan to head out to the Black Citadel to see if they’ve had anything yet, or if they’re planning on doing anything.”

“That seems like a good idea. Let me know what you find out, okay?”

Rox: “I definitely will.”

“Okay. I’d better go.”

Logan: “You had any word from Rytlock? You were with him when he went into that portal, right?”

“I was there. There was no stopping him.”

Logan: “From what I hear, he went in after Sohotlin. Is that right? Was he really trying to perform a ritual to break the Foefire curse?”

“Crazy as it sounds, yes, he was. He had King Adelbern’s crown.”

Logan: “What? He found it? Where?”

“Actually, I found it for him. It was scattered, in pieces.”

Logan: “So he had Sohotlin and the crown of the Ascalonian king who set the curse in the first place. I see why he thought it might actually work. But he’s not human. The legend says only an heir…”

(the dialogue branches out that this point)

Seraph: “Looks like we’re being joined by squads from other home cities, too.”
Seraph: “Yeah, you heard about the Grove Summit, right? That’s going in the history books.”

Wild Hunt Valiant: “If Mordremoth could attack Mother Tree in the Grove, it could attack anywhere”

Trahearne: “Have you heard anything from our mother? Is she recovering? I’ve been so worried.”

“I believe she’s still in danger. Her mind…was damaged.”

Trahearne: “Mordremoth. The Elder Dragon that spreads mental corruption. Our poor mother. This feeds my desire to stop this Elder Dragon in it’s tracks. It will know the burn of my wrath.”

“Do not leave caution behind in your hurry to take revenge.”

Trahearne: “No. No, of course, you’re right. I have too many lives in my hands. Thank you for being the voice of reason. I occasionally fall victim to my rage.”

“I understand. I’m angry too and just as determined to destroy Mordremoth.”

Trahearne: “I’ll confess. This particular dragon inspires a dread in my heart that none other has. I’ve never felt so personally attacked. That it would go after her… It’s unforgivable.”

“That’s what fuels my strength. Let it also fuel yours. We’ll be victorious.”

Trahearne: “Yes, thank you. We’ve perhaps not seen worse than this, but we have come through much together. I beg you to be careful out there. Our Mother Tree needs you. We all need you.”

“I’ll be careful. You’ll have my report soon. Good-bye, Marshal.”

All from Reunion of the Pact instance, and that’s not even all of it. Would say that’s more than a single line of conversation, wouldn’t you?

I’ve missed that part of the conversation with Rox i guess, thanks for it.
As for the Pale Tree and Trahearne it was odd that a firstborn ask me how is the Mother doing.
And yes I would say it’s more than a single line Hope they will continue this way.

Aethelbert.1497:

Second point, whish was mentioned, is unified dialogue, and this is an issue, indeed. That would make sense if you are Blood Legion and Rox may mention it during dialogue, totally agree, but so far we only had unique lines while interacting with something for engineer profession. Sigh.

Mesmers get a unique line with Braham about the Mesmer Collective that Kasmeer’s a member of, but the PC isn’t.

I think my sylvari got a few unique lines.

I’d be shocked if Doern didn’t give Whisper members unique lines.

The wiki is missing a lot of dialogue – about all that isn’t tied to progressing the story. Which is rather usual when it comes to story steps.

He does, albeit just a different greeting (slightly friendlier – not to say he’s unfriendly to non-Whispers PCs, but he’s more familiar with Whispers PCs).

Wizzlock.3492:

I don’t know – I know so many talented writers who struggle and can’t get the job, and I see Anet writers, who can spill one good story in almost 2 years. Taking language barrier aside, I am confident enough in my own skills to do better. I’ve seen many people hereon forums with lot better stories than Anet team did. So I thnk it would be better and cheaper for Anet to hire people with imagination, than to teach their own writers to do the job. Alas! Imagination is so hard to learn…

It’s very easy to say that, when you have a very limited concept of how difficult it is to write a story for a video game. If your idea of story writing is simply “just write a good story”, then your forgetting all the other elements that factor into creating a living story episode. It’s very much a marriage between game play ideas, level design, technical limitations, time constraints and budget limitations. Plus everything also has to be fact checked with the lore, and localized, and then voiced by actors.

Writing for a living story episode is not just you the writer, working on an island. You have to work with a team, and incorporate game play ideas into your narrative. If you want an army of Mursaat to suddenly pop up, then all of those Mursaat will need to be modeled, textured, animated (with new rigs), provided with new skills (which require additional coding), and provided with sound. The game designers might request that these new assets are used more often throughout the story, and so you’ll have to make changes to accommodate for this game play decision. It might not even be feasible to create all these assets at all before the dead line, and so maybe you’ll have to make changes, and the idea might have to be dropped entirely. Is it that easy to change your story drastically as the team demands, and within the tight time constraints? Is it that easy to work in game play ideas, and to write your story around them? I can tell you, it is bloody hard.

Because it isn’t just your story, it’s the story that a whole team is working on together.

In short, a little more respect for the writers please.

Underdark.3726:

We could get an mail from someone on how the search is going on, if there is actually a search. We have a bond with Rytlock, he thinks of us highly so someone could have send us a note on that. There are blood legions charr in camp Resolve who could have some ambient conversation in the instance.
“Did you heard anything new about our tribune?”
“The last thing I heard was that they were doing some research in the old Ascalon catacombs about the foefire, but they didn’t find anything useful.”
That for me would have been enough.
But, my initial post was not only about Rytlock, he was only an example.
How many time has passed since the attack on the grove? Do we have any information on the health of the Pale Tree? Was the dream damaged? Are the new born sylvari “damaged good”?
They can always find and/or create an opportunity for giving us hints. Just one line of conversation for me should be enough (if done properly )

What kind of search, if nobody has a single clue about where he might be?
“Oh, hello there, writing you just to inform you, we are looking for a single needle in an endless number of haystacks. Not much progress, but we are working on it”. Is THAT what you want? On a side note, it was mentioned already by Rox.

Regarding Pale Tree, we had enough of it in chapter 4, and we are no longer in the Grove. It’s steampunky fantasy world, not high-tech cyberpunk, information spreads on a less lower rate even than in our real life. And Trahearne actually touches on that topic specifically.

So far, everything comes back into picture when it’s actually relevant, if we talk about season 2. If it wasn’t mentioned, it’s most likely because it will be mentioned when the time comes.

“That’s what fuels my strength. Let it also fuel yours. We’ll be victorious.”

Oh boy, how did I miss the cheesiest line of the season 2? That’s an award winner.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Mesmers get a unique line with Braham about the Mesmer Collective that Kasmeer’s a member of, but the PC isn’t.

I think my sylvari got a few unique lines.

I’d be shocked if Doern didn’t give Whisper members unique lines.

The wiki is missing a lot of dialogue – about all that isn’t tied to progressing the story. Which is rather usual when it comes to story steps.

I have a single character I play with, atm, and it’s an engineer, so I mostly have the info I gathered myself or on the internet, and you’re first to mention that mesmers have some unique lines. That’s a good sign, I guess.

Aethelbert.1497:

Is THAT what you want?

If you have read my posts then you know the answer.

Underdark.3726:

Aethelbert.1497:

Is THAT what you want?

If you have read my posts then you know the answer.

Well, I can’t judge people for their taste, nor for inability to understand irony.

you practically copied my dialogue so or: a) you didn’t read what I wrote or b) you irony is flawed.
peace.

Underdark.3726:

you practically copied my dialogue so or: a) you didn’t read what I wrote or b) you irony is flawed.
peace.

If your sense of irony is flawless, then it must be your taste, for which I can not judge you. But it makes me wonder what makes you think that this kind of pointless dialogue bit is essential and, most importantly, a good thing to do.

Templar.3418:

Need a strong male character. All the ones we currently have seem to be wusses….

He should be a tragic hero that is kittened off and full of conviction! Complex!

Sounds somewhat generic but I’m sure he could be molded into something great.

Anyway…Welcome and good luck. :P

God, so true. Tired of the politically correct excess with every hero NPC a woman. The lesbian thing just makes it nauseating.

Leah Hoyer.9382:

Hi all. Thanks for the welcome notes. I’m excited to be here.

To respond to a couple of your questions/comments:
• The old writers are still here and we’re all a team. This is a new position that ArenaNet created as part of their commitment to tell the best stories possible.
• Yes, I spent a lot of my career at Disney, but my passion is building great characters and telling great stories, regardless of genre. So, don’t expect the Elder Dragons to break into song anytime soon.
• Now that you mention it, I would probably buy a Charr backpack. But that isn’t my department or my focus. I’m here to make sure we have a strong overall story, that we find the best ways to tell it, and that Narrative works with Design, Art, Audio and the other disciplines here to create the best experience possible.

I’m eager to hear what you think is working and what you think needs improvement, so let me know. I look forward to more chats.

Thank you that is very reassuring. XD

Wizzlock.3492:

I don’t know – I know so many talented writers who struggle and can’t get the job, and I see Anet writers, who can spill one good story in almost 2 years. Taking language barrier aside, I am confident enough in my own skills to do better. I’ve seen many people hereon forums with lot better stories than Anet team did. So I thnk it would be better and cheaper for Anet to hire people with imagination, than to teach their own writers to do the job. Alas! Imagination is so hard to learn…

Sigh.

Imagination is not enough to provide a good story. It is useful in starting a good story, or continuing off a place to jump off. (For the record, I’ve seen fanfiction which is simply awesome which jumped from something another person wrote into new territories. The Mad Queen’s little story is one example, even though . . . no offense meant, madam, centered around her friends and character.)

Imagination is a good beginning but it takes more than that to keep working through a story. It takes planning, an understanding of structure and the known storytelling mechanics (“tropes”), and being willing to cut your own material apart if it needs it.

Writing is never easy when it’s for a person beyond yourself.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

It’s very much a marriage between game play ideas, level design, technical limitations, time constraints and budget limitations. Plus everything also has to be fact checked with the lore, and localized, and then voiced by actors.

It’s similar to running a good tabletop RPG – you can’t just translate a good written story to it since if you approach it that way there’s a higher chance of it not sparking on the players.

It’s also similar to a tabletop RPG in that the “writer” (or in the RPG, GM) can pretty much decide how to treat the lore. Including disregarding or changing something which they need changed in order to make their story/plot work.

Writing for a living story episode is not just you the writer, working on an island.
…
In short, a little more respect for the writers please.

Writing is, actually, really easy.

Writing something which both makes sense and isn’t completely an excuse to show off art assets or game mechanics? That’s harder.

Lol I just find it hilarious that there are people complaining that we need more strong male characters because there are apparently too many strong females.

Sorry guys, but strong men are represented as the vast majority in video games and I think it’s fantastic to finally see some strong women being represented instead of making every female character scantily clad, weak, and helpless. AND it’s awesome to see lesbians (Kas and Jory) and disabilities (Taimi) being represented too. I give GW2 props for actually going outside the box of every other generic game ever. Keep up the diversity!

Two wrongs don’t make a right, and it’s not a zero-sum game – the ideal would be to have strong characters of BOTH genders.

Indeed. The issue as I see others’ complaints isn’t that “there are too many strong females” but rather “there are too many strong females compared to the number of strong males”.

Increase the number of strong males while keeping the number of strong females, and the argument falls flat on its face.

I think the issue is linked to two different aspects: the number of male characters in the story, and the relations between the two genders.

For a very long time, Braham has basically been the only dude. But Braham himself isn’t in an awkward place because of lack of males, but because the story is constantly making him subservient to superior females. He’s gone from following Rox around like a puppy, protecting Taimi like a guard dog, and running back to his mother with his tail wagging when he discovered she’s actually good at her heroism job. Similarly….isn’t it interesting that when Canach was reintroduced, the very first thing the authors did was leash him to Countess Anise, and later transfer that control over his metaphorical collar to Caithe?

Now, that being said, this isn’t the case 100% of the time. There are a few good male characters who get screentime and development, many of whom are done quite well. Rytlock Brimstone is probably the Supreme Dude in the male roster, and he completely breaks the mold described above. Coincidentally…people really seem to like him.

So I agree with Konig and Draxynnic. The ideal is numerous strong characters of both genders, and it’s important to make those characters stand on their own and provide compelling characterization of their own merits.

Shriketalon.1937:

For a very long time, Braham has basically been the only dude. But Braham himself isn’t in an awkward place because of lack of males, but because the story is constantly making him subservient to superior females. He’s gone from following Rox around like a puppy, protecting Taimi like a guard dog, and running back to his mother with his tail wagging when he discovered she’s actually good at her heroism job.

Really? That’s how you see it . . . huh. That’s not how it scanned at all to me.

See, he didn’t follow Rox around until after the Jubilee when it became apparent they could make a decent team. (I wasn’t present so I don’t know if he was with her for “Tequatl Rising” . . . if so it still makes sense since he could make a legend there.)

After having someone who he could value as a friend, and didn’t care about his mother at all, well . . . of course he hung around and cared about her. And Taimi was sort of pawned off on him by Logan first, something he basically said “WTF?!” to at first . . . and then took it seriously as befits a norn who thinks of Wolf and Bear – you protect your family, and you don’t get to choose your family. Taimi was “family” by virtue of being placed under his care and that made it his responsibility to do whatever he can to protect her.

Eir is a thornier issue with him, and it has to do with having a mental image of what she was like growing up which he didn’t get to properly challenge until he spent time around her. Realizing the pedestal and preconception he had already drawn up didn’t fit the person forced him to think about actually getting to know his mother beyond the legend and his dislike.

That’s how I see Braham, and why I think he is better for what is not stated explicitly and is more evident in his actions and reading around how he talks about things. I think the potential would be ruined if he started explaining all this stuff rather than letting you have to see it like a Magic Eye. (That is, relaxing your eyesight so your mind can make better sense of what looks like garbage.)

Similarly….isn’t it interesting that when Canach was reintroduced, the very first thing the authors did was leash him to Countess Anise, and later transfer that control over his metaphorical collar to Caithe?

Not really, when you consider there probably wasn’t any other people who had expressed an interest in springing him from jail. I know we kicked it around, but no NPCs were discussing him at all, so . . .

As for why Caithe, well, if Anise has suspicions about Caithe . . . Canach is sharp enough to pick up on things and ruthless enough to act before asking permission.

Now, that being said, this isn’t the case 100% of the time. There are a few good male characters who get screentime and development, many of whom are done quite well. Rytlock Brimstone is probably the Supreme Dude in the male roster, and he completely breaks the mold described above. Coincidentally…people really seem to like him.

I like his voice actor and the method he uses to voice him. It’s because I can almost imagine it being Pyre reincarnated as a warrior. The character of Rytlock Brimstone I have some issues with . . . primarily with how he is a jerk to Rox and never really apologizes for it.

For me, the premier male characters are Forgal, the main character as a charr male, and Caudecus. Forgal is less a cliche than the other two mentors and easier to swallow as a sacrifice due to what we know about his culture. The charr male (warrior) I have is incredibly sharp and fearsome through the first three chapters, basically going “either follow me or don’t be in my way” while giving those who follow him a reason to have loyalty. And Caudecus is an amazing schemer who takes pains to remove himself from plots with enough layers it won’t splash back on him if things go wrong – everyone sort of knows he’s behind things but there’s never any proof concrete enough to work with. (AND he’s good enough to not rub people’s noses in it like Lucius Malfoy, which was just asking to get nabbed.)

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

That’s how I see Braham, and why I think he is better for what is not stated explicitly and is more evident in his actions and reading around how he talks about things. I think the potential would be ruined if he started explaining all this stuff rather than letting you have to see it like a Magic Eye. (That is, relaxing your eyesight so your mind can make better sense of what looks like garbage.)

That doesn’t address the core problem. Braham has absolutely no agency.

Ever since the end of Flame and Frost, Braham has had no individual motivations beyond the vague concept of “forging a legend”. Every single time we see him, he is playing the supporting role to someone else’s more interesting goal. We’ve seen the various members of the Biconics striving for personal respect, for a better life, for the discovery of forbidden knowledge, for military promotion, for a redemption for their family name, for vengeance over a lost loved one, for romance, and for the Greater Good. But Braham hasn’t had a single moment where he is being proactive and actually striving for anything beyond the support of another character’s motivation.

You know that cliche where a female character exists solely to support the efforts of the more interesting and more proactive males? It’s terrible characterization that crops up in a lot of media…and Braham is just the reversal. His entire role is that of a support character, existing solely to make other people’s lives easier, without any individual purpose of his own. He basically doesn’t exist outside of his capacity to help other people complete their own agency, for he brings absolutely none to the table on his own.

This also plays out on the micro scale. When was the last time Braham actually brought anything to the table beyond a meatshield? We’ve seen Kasmeer undo enormous glamours, do plenty of Thinking With Portals, and solve problems with her completely-out-of-thin-air magical Liar Detector super powers (whatever that skritt was all about). Jory has used her necromantic powers to solve several conundrums, done a bit of detective work, and used contacts and affiliations to get things done. Rox has done some fantastic demolition work, and Taimi has played the walking exposition and plot device role for half her screentime. When was the last time Braham did anything? How many problems has he solved, what dilemmas has he unraveled or demons slain?

Considering he’s one of the five main characters for the last two years as well as the only male in the Biconic cast, it seems utterly ridiculous for him to have absolutely no agency to drive the plot or provide a unique storyline. He’s got some funny interactions with Taimi and has a decently sympathetic point of view, but from a plot perspective he hasn’t brought anything to the table for over a year.

I have to admit, as much as I like Braham (You had me from “Oh, we’re so dead.”) the last point rings true. Even in the Labyrinth, each of the rescued NPCs gives you a special boon:

1. Marjory pings the locations of the other NPCs on the map through her Necromancer “life sensing” powers.

2. Kasmeer uses Mesmer magic to help illuminate your surroundings.

3. Rox uses her demolition skills to tear shortcuts through the vines.

4. Braham is… Braham.

But despite all that, I still like the big lug. And I always appreciate having him fight beside me for his regen boon. Even if he does like to knock back enemies occasionally.

Shriketalon.1937:

stuff about Braham

So what if he doesn’t have his own motives? So what if he’s just there to support?
Why do people always need to have their own agency to be a part of the story?
He had his story, back in flame & frost, and he’s now made some friends. Friends help each other right? Does he need a reason to help his friends beyond the fact that they are his friends?

Shriketalon.1937:

…snip…

You make some valid points about Braham, but not everyone needs to be a complex hero with broad resources and abilities. Sometimes it’s ok for a hero to be a bit more simplified.

Braham is effectively a teenager/young man that’s been a country bumpkin with mommy issues. He doesn’t have Taimi’s racial intelligence, Kasmeers’ magic, or Marjorys’ experience; if he started pulling out resource like Marjory and Kasmeer do I’d be looking at him strangely wondering what the writers were smoking. He’s the friendly bear of the group; big, huggable and kind of stupid. But it works.

Shriketalon.1937:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

That’s how I see Braham, and why I think he is better for what is not stated explicitly and is more evident in his actions and reading around how he talks about things. I think the potential would be ruined if he started explaining all this stuff rather than letting you have to see it like a Magic Eye. (That is, relaxing your eyesight so your mind can make better sense of what looks like garbage.)

That doesn’t address the core problem. Braham has absolutely no agency.

And neither does the player, really. Most of what they do isn’t their own choice after a point, but one necessary step after another . . . reaction rather than choice.

But Braham hasn’t had a single moment where he is being proactive and actually striving for anything beyond the support of another character’s motivation.

Again, for most of the personal story, the player has the same thing going on – they’re under instruction for the middle part of it until they reach Zhaitan. And even then . . . well, it’s not their call what happens.

You know that cliche where a female character exists solely to support the efforts of the more interesting and more proactive males? It’s terrible characterization that crops up in a lot of media…and Braham is just the reversal.

You know, it’s cliche and people don’t like it, but it’s something which is actually . . . realistic. Some people have no other place in life than to lend a hand to those around them. To be part of a team and give the team a boost with their presence or abilities.

There’s absolutely no shame in being such a person. None. Humility is a virtue often underrated, or just scoffed at.

Again, you and I are seeing him differently. You’re seeing him as someone being wasted. I see him as someone trying to figure out what his place really is. In a sense, he is a deconstruction and examination of the norn ideal – a strong warrior who makes a legend for themselves under their own power.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

You know that cliche where a female character exists solely to support the efforts of the more interesting and more proactive males? It’s terrible characterization that crops up in a lot of media…and Braham is just the reversal.

You know, it’s cliche and people don’t like it, but it’s something which is actually . . . realistic. Some people have no other place in life than to lend a hand to those around them.

….Tobias, my friend, I disagree with your statement with every fiber of my being.

No one ever has no other place in life than simply existing for a brief moment in another’s story. Trite and cliche writing will make a character who is entirely defined by one single thing, especially when it’s to fulfill a gap in the narrative. The old sage shows up, delivers a moral lesson, and disappears. The helpful soldier will arrive to aid the hero, then die a moment later and be completely forgotten. The damsel in distress will swoon and wail until the savior arrives, then promptly lavish affection as a reward for the rescue without any other wants or needs in life. In each situation, these characters exist solely for what they can do for another, more interesting individual. They have no depth of personality, no wants and needs of their own, no purpose beyond their role as a puppet in the stage play.

And the simple reason that it’s bad writing is that living beings don’t act like that. All things strive. Everyone wants something. The sage had decades of life before his pivotal scene. The soldier had hopes and dreams, family and friends. The damsel has a personality and plans, likes and dislikes, quirks and mannerisms. Even the most humble advocate for the welfare of others has entire worlds floating around in their head, their own personal narrative. There isn’t a single being in existence with no other place in life than a cameo in someone else’s tale. Everyone is the hero of their own story.

Now, in regards to Braham himself (sorry, I got off on a tangent, but characters who aren’t written as if they had their own motivations and desires really, really bug me)…camaraderie and compassion for one’s fellow beings is a very nice motivation. When it actually leads to them doing something. Which leads us to the crux of the problem…

Mada.5319:

Shriketalon.1937:

stuff about Braham

So what if he doesn’t have his own motives? So what if he’s just there to support?
Why do people always need to have their own agency to be a part of the story?
He had his story, back in flame & frost, and he’s now made some friends. Friends help each other right? Does he need a reason to help his friends beyond the fact that they are his friends?

Because a character who brings nothing to the table has no reason to be invited to dinner.

If you cut Braham out of the story, absolutely nothing changes. He has been a central figure for the entire Living Story, constantly showing up throughout episode after episode as part of the main cast, but for the past year there isn’t a single moment where he contributes anything to the plot. And the simple reason for this is that the writers haven’t bothered to give him any agency.

If the story is a moving vehicle, agency is the force that pushes it along. Characters act upon the plot, nudging it or shoving it this way and that, and the various vectors of all the different characters exerting themselves moves the narrative along. But a character without agency is just along for the ride. They aren’t moving things along, and in some cases, their deadweight is actually making things harder to move.

In other words, why is there a member of the main cast who doesn’t do anything to drive the plot forward? Why is one of the main crew reappearing in every single episode never pushing the plot along or providing a unique contribution? Why is a protagonist without any agency worthy of screentime? Every single member of an ensemble cast needs to bring their own dish to the potluck dinner that is their story, because that’s how you get a balanced and varied meal with enough food for everyone. A character without any meaningful contribution is just eating up screentime without providing anything in return. And that’s bad manners.

If the writers cannot be bothered to give Braham the agency required to actually do something meaningful for the story, then they cannot justify Braham’s role as a main character. They need to prove that he isn’t just deadweight along for the ride, that there is more to him than just lending a hand to a more interesting character’s tale. And the way to give him that agency is to stop writing him he has no other place in life than to lend a hand to a more interesting character’s story, and to start thinking from Braham’s perspective about what he is striving for, and what he can do to make a difference.

Shriketalon.1937:

….Tobias, my friend, I disagree with your statement with every fiber of my being.

No one ever has no other place in life than simply existing for a brief moment in another’s story.

Funny, that expresses my life quite thoroughly. A fact I have come to accept after countless years of feeling worthless, just because it means I have a purpose.

And the simple reason that it’s bad writing is that living beings don’t act like that. All things strive. Everyone wants something. The sage had decades of life before his pivotal scene. The soldier had hopes and dreams, family and friends. The damsel has a personality and plans, likes and dislikes, quirks and mannerisms. Even the most humble advocate for the welfare of others has entire worlds floating around in their head, their own personal narrative. There isn’t a single being in existence with no other place in life than a cameo in someone else’s tale. Everyone is the hero of their own story.

If you’re writing fiction, then that’s quite interesting a case to look at, because these things exist in reality and are readily available to be seen. There are characters/people who exist who impact the narrative of one person’s existence . . . not at all, except for one moment where they do something either helpful or harmful.

It’s real. And you know they exist, because they’re the people who ensure things happen and don’t go around demanding recognition. If you want living examples, pay attention to bureaucracies such as school districts sometimes. There are actually people paid and making good careers out of being nothing more than facilitators who keep the systems running.

You can disagree with me in regards to whether or not it should be written but . . . please don’t tell me there are no people who exist in that manner. They do. And I’ll repeat it – there’s no shame in not being the center stage attraction.

Because a character who brings nothing to the table has no reason to be invited to dinner.

Nope. Sorry, you’re losing me here. I’m not going to agree with this on a fundamental level. You could have said they have no right to exist and I’d still debate you over it.

I’ll say why in a simple phrase which should make more sense when you step back. Just because he’s not doing anything of consequence now doesn’t mean he never will. No hero starts off that way, and those who do aren’t real people, they’re walking plot devices.

My problem with this whole Braham issue is that I can spot tracks being laid down for him, and nobody seems to want to have the patience for them to let the character be immature in other meanings of the word. He is young, brash, and he has not made himself awesome yet.

So. Freaking. What.

If your peeve is characters who don’t have their own goals or desires, mine is how characters are just dashed out to be awesome from minute the first in an attempt to make us sit up and like them. A character who earns that awesome is worth more in my eyes than someone who starts out awesome because the writers demand it.

Why do I say that?

My three all-time favorite heroic characters in fiction which have endured are Simon Snowlock, Miles Vorkosigan, and Taran of Pyrdain. I highly recommend all three series of books, especially those first two series.

I think what Shriketalon ment to say is that there are no people that solely exist in this manner, correct me if I am wrong.

Looking at them only like that is reductive and unrealistic ultimately.
Yes of course some people play more the “assistant” type but that’s not all they are.
They seem to be like that only when one looks at them from the angle of 1 individual and if you have no interest about knowing more about them.

Some people also remain more secret about their desires, dreams and hopes.

There’s also cycles. The heros of today might not be the hero’s of tomorrow anymore.
The dynamics in groups can change depending on the situation, time and space.

Ultimately everyone strives for something and depending from which angle you look at it the importance of the people in the story varies greatly.
It remains highly subjective in the end.

Deim Hunir.8503:

I think what Shriketalon ment to say is that there are no people that solely exist in this manner, correct me if I am wrong.

And again, that is exactly what my life has been – existing for the sole purpose of making sure other people have an easier time of things.

Looking at them only like that is reductive and unrealistic ultimately.

Except, again, we’re talking about a real person. It can be proven with enough evidence if I had to sit in a court of law, honestly.

Ultimately everyone strives for something and depending from which angle you look at it the importance of the people in the story varies greatly.
It remains highly subjective in the end.

I’m sure it does, but my point remains – there do exist people for whom there is only the function of making sure other people have things go smoothly as part of their lives/careers.

All this aside, it’s still not how I see Braham’s existence. As I said, he’s young and went from being all too eager to throw himself into things to become a legend to someone taking the harder path of self-discovery which is . . . mythologically speaking . . . the path of becoming a legend through knowing oneself.

Mada.5319:

So what if he doesn’t have his own motives? So what if he’s just there to support?
Why do people always need to have their own agency to be a part of the story?
He had his story, back in flame & frost, and he’s now made some friends. Friends help each other right? Does he need a reason to help his friends beyond the fact that they are his friends?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

You know, it’s cliche and people don’t like it, but it’s something which is actually . . . realistic. Some people have no other place in life than to lend a hand to those around them. To be part of a team and give the team a boost with their presence or abilities.

I think the core of the problem isn’t “Braham has no agency.” Or however you’d like to phrase that.

The issue is: “Important male characters in the Living World story have no agency." Braham is just prime victim #1.

It is 110% a-o-kay to have a character without agency or special abilities or story importance. In fact, having all characters with such is rather bad, because then everyone’s a special snowflake (while such stories can be good, it usually requires the level of grandmaster storytelling, which Anet lacks – no offense Anet writers, but atm you’re stuck at adept in your writing craftsman level).

But where you have all characters of a specific gender having that, but no character of the other gender having that. That is where the issue is.

Currently, Braham lacks a personal story – he has ever since he left Cragstead. Maybe if Olivia was brought back and that relationship developed (the irony that she left him for a traveling merchant), or Eir was killed and we see how Braham copes with that (seeing him rise into his own place rather than his current state of just drifting aside heroes looking for his big chance for his legend), this would change.

Thing is, unlike Braham, the other biconics have their own story that’s seen continuous progression. Rox had her relations with Rytlock and her coping of her old warband continuously popping up. Taimi has the stunt with Phlunt and the problems of being a child who wants to help adults in a time of war (in S1, she was just an exposition and cuteness device). Kasmeer has the plot of her nobility and ties to Anise. Marjory has Belinda’s death and the mystery of E.

Braham does have his ties with Eir, but that was mostly solved OFF SCREEN (and reduced greatly) by a single act – his story was intentionally NOT told; he had Olivia and Cragstead, but he’s left it without turning back, a story gone/completed; he has his big bro role with Taimi and his friendship with Rox but this has no development – he instantly fell into that place, and hasn’t moved an inch.

Of all the biconics, Braham’s story has either been cut short or lacked all kinds of progress. He literally has no reason to be staying with the group other than being Taimi’s big bro. Taimi wants to learn more about Scarlet. Rox had been trying to impress Rytlock in S1 and now she’s just staying away from charr society while being useful. Marjory has had her ties with Belinda and E, and Kasmeer has her ties with Marjory as well as having nowhere else to go. Braham has no reason to stay. He can leave and all the plots remain the same, just some development on the other biconics.

Canach has more of a personal story told than Braham, and he isn’t a main character.

Shriketalon.1937:

….Tobias, my friend, I disagree with your statement with every fiber of my being.

No one ever has no other place in life than simply existing for a brief moment in another’s story.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

And again, that is exactly what my life has been – existing for the sole purpose of making sure other people have an easier time of things.

Only thing I’ll say on this tricky philosophical subject is that you two are saying two different things. Unless I’m misunderstanding what you’re saying, you’re saying that you view your life to be that of helping others. This is different from what Shriketalon is saying, which is that a person exists for more than being a support in a story (which itself is false in the case of fictional characters).

One (Tobias) is helping others, the other (Shriketalon) is being irrelevant to any story that could be told. They’re not the same.

Basically, Shriketalon is saying but yet not saying is that even supporting characters have a story to tell their own – even if it’s nothing but assisting others all their life, that itself is a story for themselves. This does happen – such characters exist only to balance out the roles of the more fleshed out characters (such as comedic relief).

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Shriketalon.1937:

….Tobias, my friend, I disagree with your statement with every fiber of my being.

No one ever has no other place in life than simply existing for a brief moment in another’s story.

Funny, that expresses my life quite thoroughly. A fact I have come to accept after countless years of feeling worthless, just because it means I have a purpose.

And yet here you are, with your own thoughts and opinions, your own insights and ideas, enjoying a hobby completely separate from your main vocation. You have depth, just like every other human being, nuances and history that make you a unique individual.

You are special, Tobias! I believe in you!

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Nope. Sorry, you’re losing me here. I’m not going to agree with this on a fundamental level. You could have said they have no right to exist and I’d still debate you over it.

I’ll say why in a simple phrase which should make more sense when you step back. Just because he’s not doing anything of consequence now doesn’t mean he never will. No hero starts off that way, and those who do aren’t real people, they’re walking plot devices.

My problem with this whole Braham issue is that I can spot tracks being laid down for him, and nobody seems to want to have the patience for them to let the character be immature in other meanings of the word. He is young, brash, and he has not made himself awesome yet.

So. Freaking. What.

The What is simple. A good story needs a proper cast to move smoothly, and a good character needs a relevant tale to grow and change.

Season 2 has incredibly awkward moments as a direct result of relying on irrelevant characters. When Aerin went ballistic, the entirely meat based Biconics were left looking at each other asking “Does anyone know anything about Sylvari? ….No?…Well, okay then.” When we investigated the Zephyrite crash, no one had any connection to their people or history with their expedition, so the writers had to make Kasmeer spontaneously grow a third eye and develop mystical lie detector super powers just to point out that the Zephyrites were up to something. And the entire arc up to the conference was horribly cast because the Biconics weren’t supposed to be A-list heroes who have the ear of the world leaders. If they had actually cast characters relevant to the plot as their main crew, the story would have flowed smoothly and expediently as it relies on their expertise and character arcs that coincide with the plot.

Similarly, a character needs to be relevant to the plot to have a tangible arc where they grow and improve. You say that Braham has plenty of potential, and that you see the trails of his future heroism? Why doesn’t it bother you that he hasn’t had a character arc in an entire year’s time?

It’s not like it’s that hard to give him something to do. All it would take is a scene where the Biconics are trekking through the Maguuma wastes, they get into a tight spot with the sandstorms and supplies, and Braham turns and says “Okay, we can use the east faces of the canyon walls for cover when the sandstorm builds, those cacti can provide us with enough water for nourishment, and we need to use light cover against the sun in the daylight and warm garb in the evening when the temperature drops.” And as the city detective, former socialite, university student, and miner-turned soldier stare at him a moment, he can quip “What? Didn’t anyone else learn anything about desert survival before coming out here?” Ta-da! Braham is suddenly relevant, and in a way that highlights his concern for others as well as the Norn race’s specialty as the supreme survivalists of the world.

And if they don’t want to make a specific scene for Braham, they could have easily allocated the screentime evenly across the board. Marjory, for example, has so far lead the group into the wastes to talk to her sister, investigated the crash site, worked on her relationship with Kasmeer, spearheaded the battle against Aerin, dealt with her sister’s death, journeyed to the Priory to delve into the history of Glint, and gained an artifact blade drawing strength from the Power of Heart. And that’s from three months worth of updates (intermission aside). I’m pretty certain they could spare just a little bit of time for Braham to have a scene or two where he had the answer to a given conundrum, and his direct involvement moved the plot forward and allowed him to grow. Instead they had him reunite with his mom and have an adventure offscreen, and later informed us that he was impressed with her. “Show, don’t tell” is a basic rule of storytelling, but they aren’t bothering to show Braham develop at all.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Deim Hunir.8503:

I think what Shriketalon ment to say is that there are no people that solely exist in this manner, correct me if I am wrong.

And again, that is exactly what my life has been – existing for the sole purpose of making sure other people have an easier time of things.

Looking at them only like that is reductive and unrealistic ultimately.

Except, again, we’re talking about a real person. It can be proven with enough evidence if I had to sit in a court of law, honestly.

Ultimately everyone strives for something and depending from which angle you look at it the importance of the people in the story varies greatly.
It remains highly subjective in the end.

I’m sure it does, but my point remains – there do exist people for whom there is only the function of making sure other people have things go smoothly as part of their lives/careers.

All this aside, it’s still not how I see Braham’s existence. As I said, he’s young and went from being all too eager to throw himself into things to become a legend to someone taking the harder path of self-discovery which is . . . mythologically speaking . . . the path of becoming a legend through knowing oneself.

Well you could be the exception to the rule really so my argument still isn’t refuted :P …

Or you’re just being a master pupetteer and wording it nicely, but really there’s a hidden agenda behind your actions that goes beyond other’s having a better life OR it’s temporary and you won’t be able to keep up with just doing that eternally, eventually you’ll feel empty.

Don’t take this overly seriously I’m just having fun wildy speculating ;-)

Also let’s assume you’re 100 % truthful. That’s 1 person. Most people around you surely don’t live their lives like that so having an entire cast just being support to 1 person seems unlikely.
Employess working for their bosses doesn’t count !

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I think the core of the problem isn’t “Braham has no agency.” Or however you’d like to phrase that.

Possibly he’s not supposed to have it, he is a very young person whose first attempt to pursue something ended pretty badly for him. And the second time he was hoping to get a good tall tale out of it ended with a shattered leg.

What you have is, really, a teen male getting to have to deal with the real world and how legends are born . . . really . . . rather than “my will makes it happen because I am the hero”. It’s valuable and should be an anvil dropped on him (and us) repeatedly.

The issue is: “Important male characters in the Living World story have no agency." Braham is just prime victim #1.

. . . I had a recent conversation with someone about gender in regards to characters and how it’s unfair to use it as a handle with which to start drama/controversies. The whole of this gender thing in the Living World? Yeah, it has begun to feel a lot like people need to prop something together on gender inequalities. At best, they’re overanalyzing, at worst they’re seeing agendas which aren’t subtle by their claim and yet lack overt signs.

But where you have all characters of a specific gender having that, but no character of the other gender having that. That is where the issue is.

There’s so many wrong turns this usually takes – replace “specific gender” with “specific race” and you get a treasure trove of other obligatory problems which “need to be examined”. Some of them have some value (why is it almost always asuran tech which people fall back on to provide the deus ex machina?) and some others are expected from the theme of the current climate (humans don’t have much in the world beyond their little corner of Queensdale).

I’m sorry, but there are more problems going on than whether or not male characters have agency or presence. (Frankly, the ones they could give it to currently would burn up the forums all over again since we’re talking of one potential being Trahearne who seems universally despised.) More to the point is needing to refine this hyper-focus of the LW seasons and allow for things to be included which aren’t connected to the main plotline and can develop the world outside of the nugget of story.

Currently, Braham lacks a personal story – he has ever since he left Cragstead. Maybe if Olivia was brought back and that relationship developed (the irony that she left him for a traveling merchant), or Eir was killed and we see how Braham copes with that (seeing him rise into his own place rather than his current state of just drifting aside heroes looking for his big chance for his legend), this would change.

I’m bolding this not because it’s yelling but it’s an important thing.

We don’t need more deaths of developed characters, or secondary characters, in order to drop pathos on underdeveloped characters to force them into a role.

We do need to perhaps see some closure, even if it’s just Braham running into her and giving her the cold shoulder to show he moved on. “Oh, hi Olivia . . . pining for you? Not anymore. Good to see you’re well but I’ve got to run.” Realizing his first crush was a poor place to push his affections, realizing he has to not look back and instead focus ahead, and he has to keep focused or something else can go wrong . . . and maybe this time it won’t be him being hurt, or his friends won’t be as lucky as he was to survive it

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Of all the biconics, Braham’s story has either been cut short or lacked all kinds of progress.

As I keep saying, it seems to me that’s designed to be part of the character – he’s not the awesome hero he thought he would be just by virtue of choosing to act. Along the way he’s going to learn you don’t need to try to be a hero. You just are one.

Canach has more of a personal story told than Braham, and he isn’t a main character.

Canach had more time than Braham devoted to his story, so yeah, that’s a given.

Basically, Shriketalon is saying but yet not saying is that even supporting characters have a story to tell their own – even if it’s nothing but assisting others all their life, that itself is a story for themselves. This does happen – such characters exist only to balance out the roles of the more fleshed out characters (such as comedic relief).

But not every story has to be told, because most just aren’t that interesting. I expect the life and times of Tybalt Leftpaw were really dull before we ran into him, and after he got injured so severely. I expect the stories Zojja could tell us about her time in laboratories before she and Snaff set out into the world are likewise pretty dull . . . well, if you’re not an asura egghead.

And some stories can’t be made interesting being told – they need to be watched and seen to become something great. I seriously recommend you check out the trio I mentioned before, but if you need someone more mainstream? Neville Longbottom. Total comic relief in the early books, and somewhere around book five he finds out he’s not useless (and we do too).

Deim Hunir.8503:

Or you’re just being a master pupetteer and wording it nicely, but really there’s a hidden agenda behind your actions that goes beyond other’s having a better life OR it’s temporary and you won’t be able to keep up with just doing that eternally, eventually you’ll feel empty.

Sort of. It’s called “enlightened self-interest”. By improving other peoples’ lot in life, you make it more likely they will care about yours. Even if it fails to achieve that, you’ve still made a positive mark on something. It’s more complicated than that, naturally, and it could go on for a long time trying to get to the heart of it and filling up pages but let’s sum it up this way:

“Do unto others as you would have done unto you” meets “the greatest thing you can give someone is not a thing, it is a sincere effort to improve their lot”.

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