Guild Wars 2

Thobek.1730:

That’s not what the thread is about! Its the lack of Male characters. People are not asking to remove this female character or that one because there are too many.

We are saying for balance and equality ADD in some male characters that some people enjoy identifying with. Why would this be a problem? You have quite a few female characters taking up key roles, how about some for the guys…

Personally I don’t identify with Braham, he’s a dimwitted oaf that hits first and thinks later. Faren and his fancy panties is a joke, Canach is a villian that has perhaps seen the error of his ways and currently rots in a cell, and Evon is a opportunist with questionable ethics (tbh I like Evon the most out of this sad ragtag bunch). The other two are Logan the love sick puppy who I would expect to see carrying around Jennah’s purse while she goes shopping and Rytlock who is so caught up in administration duties you barely see him anymore.

The best two real male heroes of this game were Forgal and Tybalt and they were unfortunately killed off. They had substance of character.

So ultimately I agree with the OP, there is a lack of male major characters, or should I say GOOD ones.

I know I didn’t suggest the thread was about removing female characters. I’m just making the point that normally the female characters are the ‘dumb oafs’ and ‘fancy panties’ weird stuff in other games so it’s nice to see these stereotypes reversed for a change.

That perhaps this can serve as an example to the people who have a go at woman (Or some men) who complain about the female characters in the video game industry as to why it can become tiring to always be represented in a bad way in a lot of games. Luckily this is improving all the time now. It’s just really nice to see. (Also not saying anyone in specific is saying this. Just making a general observation that the complaint is ironic in that sense).

Like I said I would like to see more male characters as well That’s not what my point was about.

All the men that are in this thread, calling for “more representation” need to realize that they’re arguing from a position of privilege. For the most part, our (Western) culture largely caters to men- from sports and video games, to all forms of media. Under representation, in the bigger picture of things, is not an issue at all. If you can’t get past the fact that a character is a female, then I would argue that there’s a larger problem than the fact that there were half as many men in the story- you’ve been conditioned to believe that your privilege is normal, and even earned. THAT should say something about our society.

soaringleaper.7905:

All the men that are in this thread, calling for “more representation” need to realize that they’re arguing from a position of privilege. For the most part, our (Western) culture largely caters to men- from sports and video games, to all forms of media. Under representation, in the bigger picture of things, is not an issue at all. If you can’t get past the fact that a character is a female, then I would argue that there’s a larger problem than the fact that there were half as many men in the story- you’ve been conditioned to believe that your privilege is normal, and even earned. THAT should say something about our society.

Very few people have problems with the fact that we have female characters, that argument simply has little to no weight. The real issue is that the men in the Living Story are unlikable or utterly pathetic.

It is not a crime to ask for a new more likable and competent male lead, nor is that a misguided sense of privilege. It is simple preference and what most of you are trying to do is oppress a demographic to exert your own sociological opinions. Which is tolerable to a degree, but no one is trying to repress women here, just get a better male character into the Living Story.

Aedelric.1287:

It is not a crime to ask for a new more likable and competent male lead, nor is that a misguided sense of privilege.

It’s not a crime, no, but it is a sign of privilege to ask for a male lead instead of just a more likable male character. A sincere question. Would you be content if — everything else remaining the same — either Rox or Taimi had been male, bringing the gender ratio as close to equilibrium as possible for the main five characters? Based on the “fair and balanced” argument you should be. A negative answer, on the other hand, would reveal a completely different motive behind the request.

If we analyse DE Mk II in terms of Five-Man Band, then it’s clear that Braham is the Strong Guy and Taimi is the Smart Guy. The rest are not quite as clear. The roles of The Chick and The Lancer have been mixed a bit between Rox and Kasmeer. Kasmeer is too competent and active to be a pure Chick, and Rox provides insufficient foil for Marjory to be a pure Lancer. In a way, Rox is Braham’s Lancer. Marjory is arguably The Leader, but she is a Guile Hero at most.

There is an entirely valid reason for this lack of a distinct Hero — because that’s where the player character comes in. The leading character roles of the team have been subdued to provide enough room for the player to take the role of The Hero, if they feel like doing that.

The request to have a competent male lead as a NPC suggests that the player is not capable of playing that role himself, but still feels that a male must be in charge for the world to be in the right shape. And that’s the essence of privilege.

tmakinen.1048:

Aedelric.1287:

It is not a crime to ask for a new more likable and competent male lead, nor is that a misguided sense of privilege.

It’s not a crime, no, but it is a sign of privilege to ask for a male lead instead of just a more likable male character.

Nonsense. Sorry I’m not buying that, its not a privilege to ask for this at all. When you go the the Dead End Bar I see all those characters as lead characters. 4 females discussing the latest event and one dimwitted male grunting in the corner who they laugh at.

Why can’t they just add in another Male character to the group who actually has some insight to contribute and isn’t just a grunting fool that needs everything explained to him. Keep all the other females, just add one more guy… too much to ask? a privilege? pft.

I like the females-heavy cast so far. Especially since it’s very rare in RPGs and fantasy in general. I’d also disagree on Braham being pathetic. He’s young, not super-bright, but his heart is in the right place. And the interactions with Taimi are difficult not to love. I also never feel that they’re “laughing at him” like the previous poster said, rather than laughing “with” him.
I’m actually regularly pleasantly surprised by the “narrative” bits and criticism about the gameplay content of the LS aside (I’d agree on the too much stuff encouraging zerg behavior), I’d say it has more substance than the average MMORPG narratives. The characters are nicely fleshed out and relatable. Not because of their fancy heroics or awesome looks so much than because they feel human.

So no, I don’t share the sentiment that there’s too little male presence in the LS cast (let’s not forget Evon Gnashblade, who’s awesome.)

Thobek.1730:

Why can’t they just add in another Male character to the group

Because all the necessary roles are already accounted for. Also, you didn’t answer the question. Would you be content if Rox or Taimi were male?

Dbenji.9230:

Also notice the amount of lesbian couples compared to male gay couples. I can mention none of the later, cause probably there are none in the main story too. However, everyone knows Kas-Jory and Caithe-Faolain. I can also recall two sylvari girls from the ‘green knight’ personal story.

The couple in the green knight personal story were male.
Caithe and Faolain are no longer a couple and don’t have what I’d consider a healthy relationship anyway.

Aedelric.1287:

Insufficient evidence of bias? Sure their is, the heroes of Tyria are almost all female, Rox, Kasmeer, Marjory, Taimi and only Braham is male. The main antagonist is a female Sylvari and most of the rest are just background characters with the exception of Ellen Kiel who has been an important character in numerous updates.

If you are going to include Ellen Kiel and Scarlet then you should probably include the following (listing other characters who have speaking parts and featured in multiple living story patches so aren’t background characters or one-off characters),

Canach (The Lost Shores, The Secret of Southsun, Escape from Lion’s Arch)

Magnus the Bloody Handed (The Lost Shores, The Secret of Southsun, Dragon Bash, Sky Pirates of Tyria, Bazaar of the Four Winds, Escape from Lion’s Arch, Battle for Lion’s Arch and the current Aftermath patch).

Lord Faren (The Secret of Southsun, Queen’s Jubilee, Clockwork Chaos, and The Nightmare Within, plus of course the personal story involvement).

Mai Trin (Dragon Bash, Sky Pirates and Edge of the Mists)

Even Gnashblade (Bazaar of the Four Winds, Cutthroat Politics, Escape from Lion’s Arch)

Emissary Vorpp (Queen’s Jubilee, Clockwork Chaos, Edge of the Mists)

Which makes it 7 female and 6 male.

Yes the core group from the living story is 4 female and 1 male (+ 1 male pet in Frostbite), but the expanded group of characters from the living story is closer to a more even distribution of genders.

tmakinen.1048:

Thobek.1730:

Why can’t they just add in another Male character to the group

Because all the necessary roles are already accounted for. Also, you didn’t answer the question. Would you be content if Rox or Taimi were male?

We can have as many roles as Arena Net deem fit, they can create roles upon demand, like they did with Taimi.

To answer your question no, I would not (And likely most men here) be content if Rox or Taimi were male, you are essentially asking for female characters to be removed in favor of male and the majority of people in this topic do not want that.

I have not read a single solid and logical reason as to why a new male lead can not be introduced.

Lasica.5068:

Aedelric.1287:

Insufficient evidence of bias? Sure their is, the heroes of Tyria are almost all female, Rox, Kasmeer, Marjory, Taimi and only Braham is male. The main antagonist is a female Sylvari and most of the rest are just background characters with the exception of Ellen Kiel who has been an important character in numerous updates.

If you are going to include Ellen Kiel and Scarlet then you should probably include the following (listing other characters who have speaking parts and featured in multiple living story patches so aren’t background characters or one-off characters),

Canach (The Lost Shores, The Secret of Southsun, Escape from Lion’s Arch)

Magnus the Bloody Handed (The Lost Shores, The Secret of Southsun, Dragon Bash, Sky Pirates of Tyria, Bazaar of the Four Winds, Escape from Lion’s Arch, Battle for Lion’s Arch and the current Aftermath patch).

Lord Faren (The Secret of Southsun, Queen’s Jubilee, Clockwork Chaos, and The Nightmare Within, plus of course the personal story involvement).

Mai Trin (Dragon Bash, Sky Pirates and Edge of the Mists)

Even Gnashblade (Bazaar of the Four Winds, Cutthroat Politics, Escape from Lion’s Arch)

Emissary Vorpp (Queen’s Jubilee, Clockwork Chaos, Edge of the Mists)

Which makes it 7 female and 6 male.

Yes the core group from the living story is 4 female and 1 male (+ 1 male pet in Frostbite), but the expanded group of characters from the living story is closer to a more even distribution of genders.

Canach – Temporary villain.

Magnus – Background character.

Lord Faren – Background comedy relief.

Mai Trin – Temporary villain.

Evon Gnashblade – Background character, though I really wish his role was expanded.

Emissary Vorpp – Very much a background character, his role has been so minor.

Seriously, this topic has gotten so bad that we are now having to count the sex of a pet to up the number of men in the Living Story? That is amusing.

Aedelric.1287:

To answer your question no, I would not (And likely most men here) be content if Rox or Taimi were male, you are essentially asking for female characters to be removed in favor of male and the majority of people in this topic do not want that.

No, my question didn’t have anything to do with removing a female character. Please imagine a hypothetical scenario where instead of Taimi, ANet would have introduced the (male) asuran progeny Taikk as the fifth member of DE Mk II. In that hypothetical scenario, with two males and three females, would you have been content with the gender distribution of the party?

I must pre-emptively point out that if you choose to repeat a negative answer, I will find it quite interesting and revealing, since Taimi is both competent and ridiculously likable — just the qualities that were allegedly sought for.

tmakinen.1048:

Thobek.1730:

Why can’t they just add in another Male character to the group

Because all the necessary roles are already accounted for. Also, you didn’t answer the question. Would you be content if Rox or Taimi were male?

Of course not. Rox and Taimi are fine as is. And please define “necessary”.

bullyrook.2165:

Rox and Taimi are fine as is.

This is peculiar. I specifically didn’t ask the question “Should ANet turn Rox or Taimi into a male?” but you still answer to that one, and not the question that I asked. Did I not express myself properly, was the question I did ask too difficult to conceptualize, or is there a reason to avoid answering it?

tmakinen.1048:

Aedelric.1287:

Good content makes an MMO stand out from the crowd, not gender bias. If you imply that it was Arena Net’s intention to have a female heavy cast only to make itself different from the rest, then that was quite a failure. Neither does the story to the LS stand out from any other MMO as exceptional, the quality of the content itself has been fairly mediocre.

Many in this topic have said gender bias is fine if the story calls for it, but if they are not using story reasons for their decisions then that speaks volumes about the lack of quality to the writing.

You keep insisting that there is a “gender bias” as if that were a given fact.

Too bad that this claim is not supported by statistics.

In order to establish the presence of a bias, the measurement must be outside the confidence interval of the null hypothesis that there is no bias and the outcome is random. In the case of a binomial distribution, the null hypothesis confidence interval is

0.5 ± 0.5 z / sqrt( n )

where z is a percentile value corresponding to confidence percentage, and n is the sample size. For a statistically significant result, z = 3. Thus, for any n we can calculate where the null hypothesis fails, i.e., what kind of result supports the existence of a bias. For your convenience:

For groups of up to 8 characters, null hypothesis always holds. The sample size is too small to say anything about a bias.

For groups between 9 and 12 characters, there is a bias if all characters are of the same gender.

For groups between 13 and 15 characters, there is a bias if there is at most one character of one gender.

For groups between 16 and 19 characters, there is a bias if there are at most two characters of one gender.

And so on.

In light of these numbers, there is insufficient evidence of a gender bias in GW2.

4 to 1. Basic math proves ya wrong lad.

I’d also remind posters drafting and redrafting lists of Living Story Characters that men make up the primary cast of the yearly holiday updates. We have 2 male main characters in the Halloween plots (Mad King Thorn, Prince Edrick Thorn) and the main character of the Wintersday update is Toymaker Tixx. You could also count Moto for his Super Adventure Box.

Expand the campaign for gender equality in DE 2.0 to the other LS elements like the Holidays

Aedelric.1287:

Because all the necessary roles are already accounted for. Also, you didn’t answer the question. Would you be content if Rox or Taimi were male?

We can have as many roles as Arena Net deem fit, they can create roles upon demand, like they did with Taimi.

To answer your question no, I would not (And likely most men here) be content if Rox or Taimi were male, you are essentially asking for female characters to be removed in favor of male and the majority of people in this topic do not want that.

I have not read a single solid and logical reason as to why a new male lead can not be introduced.

I still haven’t seen a solid and logical reason as to why we need a new male lead. Someone else pointed out that the role of “Hero” is the player, so if you need a new male lead, why can’t it be your character?

Leshain.6720:

4 to 1. Basic math proves ya wrong lad.

I would like to politely point out the very basic mathematical fact that for the distribution B(5, 0.5) the value P(|X – EX(X)| > 1) = 3 / 8. Therefore, the null hypothesis holds and there isn’t any statistical evidence of bias. I have proven my case.

tmakinen.1048:

Leshain.6720:

4 to 1. Basic math proves ya wrong lad.

I would like to politely point out the very basic mathematical fact that for the distribution B(5, 0.5) the value P(|X – EX(X)| > 1) = 3 / 8. Therefore, the null hypothesis holds and there isn’t any statistical evidence of bias. I have proven my case.

4 is a higher number than 1 lad.

They should give you a new male lead. A bisexual male thief who dresses in a thong and leather straps for “mobility”, speaks in sexual innuendos and gets things done by cunning. Cunning in this case meaning he offers to screw the more competent women if they will do things for him and stabs people in the back.

Leshain.6720:

tmakinen.1048:

Leshain.6720:

4 to 1. Basic math proves ya wrong lad.

I would like to politely point out the very basic mathematical fact that for the distribution B(5, 0.5) the value P(|X – EX(X)| > 1) = 3 / 8. Therefore, the null hypothesis holds and there isn’t any statistical evidence of bias. I have proven my case.

4 is a higher number than 1 lad.

True. Fermat’s Last Theorem is also true. Neither of these true statements has anything to do with the topic in question. I wouldn’t want to be impolite, but quite frankly, you are not qualified to have this conversation, and therefore it is a waste of time and effort.

tmakinen.1048:

Leshain.6720:

tmakinen.1048:

Leshain.6720:

4 to 1. Basic math proves ya wrong lad.

I would like to politely point out the very basic mathematical fact that for the distribution B(5, 0.5) the value P(|X – EX(X)| > 1) = 3 / 8. Therefore, the null hypothesis holds and there isn’t any statistical evidence of bias. I have proven my case.

4 is a higher number than 1 lad.

True. Fermat’s Last Theorem is also true. Neither of these true statements has anything to do with the topic in question. I wouldn’t want to be impolite, but quite frankly, you are not qualified to have this conversation, and therefore it is a waste of time and effort.

I’m qualified to my opinion lad.

tmakinen.1048:

Thobek.1730:

Why can’t they just add in another Male character to the group

Because all the necessary roles are already accounted for. Also, you didn’t answer the question. Would you be content if Rox or Taimi were male?

All the necessary roles? What a terribly boring and stale way to think about it. Its like the comic book stereotypes. “We can’t have another strong yet unintelligent person – that role is taken.” How about the dynamic of having two thinkers in the group that actually argue with each other… nah can’t have that, you only need one.

If they truly think like that then these writers are worse than I thought. But I doubt that is their line of thinking because we’ve already had two lesbian relationships and a party of lead characters predominately made up of females. You can tell they are trying to change the typical make up of a team of characters in a computer game.

Its hard to say whether I would be content if Rox or Taimi were male since I quite like those two characters, and have gotten used to them. But if I had to choose one it would be Rox. I could see Rox and Braham questing together like brothers, they argue now and again but ultimately as they develop together so builds the strength of their relationship. They could even both vie for the attention of the same female which could be a vehicle for some humor – probably not if the new version of Rox was a Char

Leshain.6720:

I’m qualified to my opinion lad.

True, again. However, you aren’t qualified to your own facts. As I have mentioned earlier, statistical determination of bias is not a matter of opinion.

I have laid out the facts. Those aren’t open for discussion. Trying to do the contrary will increase the probability of administrative intervention.

tmakinen.1048:

Leshain.6720:

I’m qualified to my opinion lad.

True, again. However, you aren’t qualified to your own facts. As I have mentioned earlier, statistical determination of bias is not a matter of opinion.

I have laid out the facts. Those aren’t open for discussion. Trying to do the contrary will increase the probability of administrative intervention.

4 is more than 1 lad, that is a fact. Lad.

Thobek.1730:

What a terribly boring and stale way to think about it. Its like the comic book stereotypes. “We can’t have another strong yet unintelligent person – that role is taken.” How about the dynamic of having two thinkers in the group that actually argue with each other… nah can’t have that, you only need one.

Please remember that every new major character requires a significant investment to develop, with diminishing returns. Hence, instead of adding new characters for the heck of it, the developers must identify a specific need that isn’t being met by the existing cast. This, essentially, is how we got Taimi. Her being the Brain doesn’t exclude the existence of other intellectual characters — before her introduction Marjory was essentially the acting Brain.

As pointed out, any compelling reason for adding yet another character to DE Mk II hasn’t been provided. If you believe otherwise, please state an unmet need.

Thobek.1730:

Its hard to say whether I would be content if Rox or Taimi were male since I quite like those two characters, and have gotten used to them. But if I had to choose one it would be Rox. I could see Rox and Braham questing together like brothers, they argue now and again but ultimately as they develop together so builds the strength of their relationship. They could even both vie for the attention of the same female which could be a vehicle for some humor – probably not if the new version of Rox was a Char

Interesting. Considering that we are talking about a member of a race that uses unisex armor and where gender is for all practical purposes irrelevant — even for the members of the race themselves — how does it affect your preferred vision whether Rox is male or female? Quite honestly, when it comes to charr I have a hard time telling the two apart, and even less interest in doing so. Do you perhaps believe in some abstract quality of ‘maleness’ and ‘femaleness’ that sets a male and a female charr further apart from each other than a male charr is from a male norn?

Thobek.1730:

If they truly think like that then these writers are worse than I thought. But I doubt that is their line of thinking because we’ve already had two lesbian relationships and a party of lead characters predominately made up of females. You can tell they are trying to change the typical make up of a team of characters in a computer game.

One Lesbian relationship in the living story.

If you are going to include elements from the personal story then you have to bring in all the characters from that as well which include a lot of male characters and invalidate the point you are trying to make.

tmakinen.1048:

Quite honestly, when it comes to charr I have a hard time telling the two apart, and even less interest in doing so.

The difference is quite apparent, unless you are trying to say that Rox is man enough so we do not need more?

Leshain.6720:

tmakinen.1048:

Leshain.6720:

I’m qualified to my opinion lad.

True, again. However, you aren’t qualified to your own facts. As I have mentioned earlier, statistical determination of bias is not a matter of opinion.

I have laid out the facts. Those aren’t open for discussion. Trying to do the contrary will increase the probability of administrative intervention.

4 is more than 1 lad, that is a fact. Lad.

That’s not evidence of bias lad.
That’s a fact.
(before you ask why, read tmakinen’s explanation)

tmakinen.1048:

bullyrook.2165:

Rox and Taimi are fine as is.

This is peculiar. I specifically didn’t ask the question “Should ANet turn Rox or Taimi into a male?” but you still answer to that one, and not the question that I asked. Did I not express myself properly, was the question I did ask too difficult to conceptualize, or is there a reason to avoid answering it?

My goodness. What a horribly rude person you are. I take it to mean that what you meant to ask is “would we even be talking about this if Rox and Taimi were originally cast as males”. The answer: they wouldn’t be the same people if they were male, so they would likely lack heart because their persona’s would change somewhat. You keep acting as if changing gender is the same thing as changing clothes. I assure you, it is not the same. Aside from that, if Rox and Taimi were males then that would make the gender ratio 3 to 2 and we would still be a female short.

I personally don’t care about ratios. I want just one strong male lead. Intelligent, cynical, physically strong, composed, occasionally drunk and NOT flirting with anyone. One who takes victory with a shrug and defeat with laughter. I want a hero that doesn’t wait for a villain to make their dramatic speech, but shoots the kitten mid sentence. His dialogs shouldn’t be about his mommy issues, but rather about telling people to shut the hell up and pass the ammunition.
I guess I just want something between a Krogan and Bruce Willis.

Raziel.4216:

Leshain.6720:

tmakinen.1048:

Leshain.6720:

I’m qualified to my opinion lad.

True, again. However, you aren’t qualified to your own facts. As I have mentioned earlier, statistical determination of bias is not a matter of opinion.

I have laid out the facts. Those aren’t open for discussion. Trying to do the contrary will increase the probability of administrative intervention.

4 is more than 1, that is a fact.

That’s not evidence of bias.
That’s a fact.

So all those many, many games that have a handful of male leads and only one female are fine now? What about the games with just one lead who happens to be male? Surely the numbers are not great enough to indicate bias? At least according so some people here.

Regardless Braham is not a good male lead, hence the reason so many want a new one. A handful may like him, but that alone is not reason enough to stop others getting a male lead they can more easily identify with.

Trollhammer.7439:

I personally don’t care about ratios. I want just one strong male lead. Intelligent, cynical, physically strong, composed, occasionally drunk and NOT flirting with anyone. One who takes victory with a shrug and defeat with laughter. I want a hero that doesn’t wait for a villain to make their dramatic speech, but shoots the kitten mid sentence. His dialogs shouldn’t be about his mommy issues, but rather about telling people to shut the hell up and pass the ammunition.
I guess I just want something between a Krogan and Bruce Willis.

Sounds good to me.

Thobek.1730:

When you go the the Dead End Bar I see all those characters as lead characters. 4 females discussing the latest event and one dimwitted male grunting in the corner who they laugh at.

Why can’t they just add in another Male character to the group who actually has some insight to contribute and isn’t just a grunting fool that needs everything explained to him. Keep all the other females, just add one more guy… too much to ask? a privilege? pft.

This is exactly what I saw on the Dead End, after it me and my wallet feel both offended.

Trollhammer.7439:

I personally don’t care about ratios. I want just one strong male lead. Intelligent, cynical, physically strong, composed, occasionally drunk and NOT flirting with anyone. One who takes victory with a shrug and defeat with laughter. I want a hero that doesn’t wait for a villain to make their dramatic speech, but shoots the kitten mid sentence. His dialogs shouldn’t be about his mommy issues, but rather about telling people to shut the hell up and pass the ammunition.
I guess I just want something between a Krogan and Bruce Willis.

This hero would make me and my wallet feel less offended.

Aedelric.1287:

Trollhammer.7439:

I personally don’t care about ratios. I want just one strong male lead. Intelligent, cynical, physically strong, composed, occasionally drunk and NOT flirting with anyone. One who takes victory with a shrug and defeat with laughter. I want a hero that doesn’t wait for a villain to make their dramatic speech, but shoots the kitten mid sentence. His dialogs shouldn’t be about his mommy issues, but rather about telling people to shut the hell up and pass the ammunition.
I guess I just want something between a Krogan and Bruce Willis.

Sounds good to me.

This would seem to be the crux of the issue. All this talk about gender bias and the like is just a diversion. It isn’t a new male character that is being requested. Some players just want to see The Male.

Well, this explains everything.

bullyrook.2165:

I take it to mean that what you meant to ask is “would we even be talking about this if Rox and Taimi were originally cast as males”. The answer: they wouldn’t be the same people

You have identified the correct question. You are still failing to answer it. In that hypothetical scenario the current Rox and Taimi wouldn’t exist. Hence, any answer that compares these two scenarios the way you do above is nonsensical.

tmakinen.1048:

bullyrook.2165:

I take it to mean that what you meant to ask is “would we even be talking about this if Rox and Taimi were originally cast as males”. The answer: they wouldn’t be the same people

You have identified the correct question. You are still failing to answer it. In that hypothetical scenario the current Rox and Taimi wouldn’t exist. Hence, any answer that compares these two scenarios the way you do above is nonsensical.

They you phrased your original question incorrectly.

Rox and Taimi are female, this type of hypothetical discussion is not productive and is no way addresses the lack of major male leads as the topic is supposedly about.

Aedelric.1287:

Rox and Taimi are female, this type of hypothetical discussion is not productive and is no way addresses the lack of major male leads as the topic is supposedly about.

Quite the contrary, the question was instrumental in detecting the true motive behind the request (and that, in turn, was necessary because the given rationale was non sequitur). However, I do agree that the question is irrelevant now since you have already owned up the actual motive.

Unfortunately, the joke’s on you. Do I have to explain?

Aedelric.1287:

Raziel.4216:

Leshain.6720:

tmakinen.1048:

Leshain.6720:

I’m qualified to my opinion lad.

True, again. However, you aren’t qualified to your own facts. As I have mentioned earlier, statistical determination of bias is not a matter of opinion.

I have laid out the facts. Those aren’t open for discussion. Trying to do the contrary will increase the probability of administrative intervention.

4 is more than 1, that is a fact.

That’s not evidence of bias.
That’s a fact.

So all those many, many games that have a handful of male leads and only one female are fine now? What about the games with just one lead who happens to be male? Surely the numbers are not great enough to indicate bias? At least according so some people here.

I have explained this already, in detail. For your benefit, I will explain it one more time.

When examined on a case-by-case basis, the numbers are indeed too small to indicate any bias. You got this one right.

However, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence — or in other words, that it is not possible to talk about bias on a case-by-case basis does not mean that there isn’t a bias. Instead, it just points out that you can’t examine bias on a case-by-case basis, as has been explained repeatedly in this very thread.

On the other hand, when aggregating the numbers over an entire genre the sample size becomes large enough for the establishment of a bias — and there is indeed one.

This is why it is politely pointed out in this thread that those who complain about gender bias in GW2 Living Story are both misguided and talking from a position of privilege.

Aedelric.1287:

So all those many, many games that have a handful of male leads and only one female are fine now? What about the games with just one lead who happens to be male? Surely the numbers are not great enough to indicate bias? At least according so some people here.

Raziel.4216:

You can establish gender bias in studies like this http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11199-009-9637-1 with a sample size of 489, out of which 86% is male.

Aedelric.1287:

Regardless Braham is not a good male lead, hence the reason so many want a new one. A handful may like him, but that alone is not reason enough to stop others getting a male lead they can more easily identify with.

That’s your opinion, I (male) like him.

tmakinen.1048:

I have explained this already, in detail.

Yes you did attempt to, but your logic is flawed.

I would advise dropping the condescending attitude, it will get your posts deleted as happened before in this topic.

tmakinen.1048:

Aedelric.1287:

Rox and Taimi are female, this type of hypothetical discussion is not productive and is no way addresses the lack of major male leads as the topic is supposedly about.

Quite the contrary, the question was instrumental in detecting the true motive behind the request (and that, in turn, was necessary because the given rationale was non sequitur). However, I do agree that the question is irrelevant now since you have already owned up the actual motive.

Unfortunately, the joke’s on you. Do I have to explain?

I am sorry but what joke? To say that I owned up some kind of motive is quite ridiculous as I never stated in that sentence my own belief, just that the topic is;

“Season 1 | Lack of Major Male Characters!”

And that you kindly keep on track rather than making hypothetical propositions that you insist on being answered in only the way you find acceptable.

Aedelric.1287:

tmakinen.1048:

I have explained this already, in detail.

Yes you did attempt to, but your logic is flawed.

See, that’s the issue. I have a Ph.D. in theoretical physics and do advanced data analysis for living. The facts I have tried to explain above, especially about bias and sample size, are about as basic as 1+1=2 , and you still insist that my logic must be flawed because you disagree with the result — when any elementary book on statistical analysis could tell you otherwise. What you see as condescension is just that I happen to know what I’m talking about.

You cannot claim that there is a gender bias in newborn childen after examining one random infant. However, after examining tens of thousands of infants, you can find out that there is indeed a bias (about 107 boys to 100 girls born). This should be so bleedingly obvious as to not even require an explanation.

tmakinen.1048:

Leshain.6720:

tmakinen.1048:

Leshain.6720:

4 to 1. Basic math proves ya wrong lad.

I would like to politely point out the very basic mathematical fact that for the distribution B(5, 0.5) the value P(|X – EX(X)| > 1) = 3 / 8. Therefore, the null hypothesis holds and there isn’t any statistical evidence of bias. I have proven my case.

4 is a higher number than 1 lad.

True. Fermat’s Last Theorem is also true. Neither of these true statements has anything to do with the topic in question. I wouldn’t want to be impolite, but quite frankly, you are not qualified to have this conversation, and therefore it is a waste of time and effort.

tmakinen.1048:

Aedelric.1287:

tmakinen.1048:

I have explained this already, in detail.

Yes you did attempt to, but your logic is flawed.

See, that’s the issue. I have a Ph.D. in theoretical physics and do advanced data analysis for living. The facts I have tried to explain above, especially about bias and sample size, are about as basic as 1+1=2 , and you still insist that my logic must be flawed because you disagree with the result — when any elementary book on statistical analysis could tell you otherwise. What you see as condescension is just that I happen to know what I’m talking about.

You cannot claim that there is a gender bias in newborn childen after examining one random infant. However, after examining tens of thousands of infants, you can find out that there is indeed a bias (about 107 boys to 100 girls born). This should be so bleedingly obvious as to not even require an explanation.

So nice to see that you are your own biggest fan. I really think you should get off of your theoretical kick and get involved in reality. What your statistics and perverse mathematics can’t resolve (because your sample is too small) is readily apparent to those of us who can see and interpret things without resorting to a calculator.

There is a gender bias in this game. Maybe when you have gotten a large enough sample to overcome your calculator handicap, you will be able to agree. Until then I would suggest that you stop with the condescending attitude. Telling people that they are not qualified to discuss this, while outright admitting that you lack the data to have an opinion yourself is ridiculous to say the least. Guess what, that means you are the one who is unqualified.

There is a gender bias in the game. I don’t really feel it’s a problem personally, but I can understand that some feel it is. I would also really hate to see Anet try to create a “man’s man”, because I don’t believe they are capable of it.

havoc.6814:

There is a gender bias in this game.

Simply stating that doesn’t make it so. Bias is not a matter of bellyfeelings, which is the only supporting evidence you provide.

Is there a gender bias in GW2? I don’t know, but neither does anyone else. As I have explained several times, there simply isn’t enough data to establish the presence of bias.

tmakinen.1048:

havoc.6814:

There is a gender bias in this game.

Simply stating that doesn’t make it so. Bias is not a matter of bellyfeelings, which is the only supporting evidence you provide.

Is there a gender bias in GW2? I don’t know, but neither does anyone else. As I have explained several times, there simply isn’t enough data to establish the presence of bias.

Bellyfeelings? Really? That’s not even a word. What was your Ph.D. in? I’m glad to see you are now at least admitting that you don’t know. I do know. Whether you understand that or not, whether you agree with it or not. I know this. I know it because I don’t need a mathematical construct to interpret the world around me.

For example, I just ate a wonderful bowl of vanilla ice cream with chocolate sauce and chopped hazelnuts. Delicious! I know I ate it, and I know that it was delicious despite the fact that it was only one bowl, and therefor not a large enough sample size to determine if it was really delicious. Amazing though it may seem, I need no calculator to make that determination.

Most of us do not live in a mathematical framework, and although they can sometimes be wrong, our perceptions are very real to us. Stop belittling them just because they don’t fit into your skewed view of a mathematically perfect world. There is a demonstrated gender bias in the game. Just because you can’t quantify it, does not mean it does not exist. It does.

havoc.6814:

What was your Ph.D. in?

Please check yourself

havoc.6814:

I do know.

Then you can perhaps quote a number, preferably with an established procedure of derivation and a three-sigma error estimate. Because otherwise you only think you know but you don’t.

Your feeling may be sincere and heartfelt, but it doesn’t constitute knowledge. Two different things.

tmakinen.1048:

havoc.6814:

What was your Ph.D. in?

Please check yourself

Still your own biggest fan?

tmakinen.1048:

havoc.6814:

I do know.

Then you can perhaps quote a number, preferably with an established procedure of derivation and a three-sigma error estimate. Because otherwise you only think you know but you don’t.

Your feeling may be sincere and heartfelt, but it doesn’t constitute knowledge. Two different things.

Really? Maybe you should google a definition of knowledge, because it definitely does constitute knowledge. Here are a couple very common definitions for you:

• “Knowledge is a familiarity, awareness or understanding of someone or something, such as facts, information, descriptions, or skills, which is acquired through experience or education by perceiving, discovering, or learning.” -Wikipedia

• knowl·edge noun \?nä-lij\
  : information, understanding, or skill that you get from experience or education
  : awareness of something : the state of being aware of something
  -Meriam Webster Dictionary

Again you are constrained by your faulty belief in the god of mathematics. You need to get out more, experience life, and leave your calculator at home. I know things, totally without math.

havoc.6814:

I know things, totally without math.

I believe you do. However, ‘bias’ in this context is a statistical concept, a property of the underlying distribution, with an exact definition. You cannot meaningfully discuss its presence without a mathematical framework.

Unless you intend to invoke mystical solipsism, the only relevant thing you have demonstrated so far is that you don’t seem to know what ‘bias’ means in the context. There was earlier this one ‘lad’ who thought that it’s synonymous with “there are more women than men.” I’m not quite sure what you think it means since you haven’t provided any relevant reasoning whatsoever in favor of your claim. If I had to hazard a guess, I’d go with “this game doesn’t cater to my favorite male power fantasy” — but I might be wrong. Say, why don’t you tell what you believe it to mean?

tmakinen.1048:

havoc.6814:

I know things, totally without math.

I believe you do. However, ‘bias’ in this context is a statistical concept, a property of the underlying distribution, with an exact definition. You cannot meaningfully discuss its presence without a mathematical framework.

Unless you intend to invoke mystical solipsism, the only relevant thing you have demonstrated so far is that you don’t seem to know what ‘bias’ means in the context. There was earlier this one ‘lad’ who thought that it’s synonymous with “there are more women than men.” I’m not quite sure what you think it means since you haven’t provided any relevant reasoning whatsoever in favor of your claim. If I had to hazard a guess, I’d go with “this game doesn’t cater to my favorite male power fantasy” — but I might be wrong. Say, why don’t you tell what you believe it to mean?

Yes, you’d be wrong with that guess, but that just means you’re batting a thousand, since you’ve been wrong on everything else.

What do I think bias means? I think it means to cause to feel or demonstrate either inclination or prejudice toward or against someone or something. I also feel that your absolute inability to accept points of view other than your own, your incessant need to attack others who oppose your point of view, and your over-riding and unforgiving belief that only mathematics can interpret the world demonstrate an extreme and unhealthy bias on your part.

Seriously? Bias is not only a statistical concept. Stop pretending that it is. It exists outside of any mathematical framework. Can you truly not see that simple fact? Can you really be that inept at real life? You keep trying to bring it back to mathematics, but this isn’t a university class, it’s a forum for a game. Try to figure that out, okay? Bias exist outside of statistics, outside of mathematical frameworks, in the real world (and even in the not-so-real world of Guild Wars2).

Edit: I won’t be bothering to reply to you anymore since your extreme level of bias renders any discussion pointless. It’s like discussing philosophy with a calculator.