Guild Wars 2

Greetings and Salutations!

As the second season of the Living Story progresses, there are numerous advancements in the mechanics to celebrate, but also some troubles and tribulations. One particular burr in the sandal of the storyline shows no sign of ceasing, and thus it seems fitting to talk about a lingering problem with the narrative. The Biconics.

My thesis is simple. The story should stop treating these side characters like protagonists.

The Biconics are not bad characters. Far from it, they are fairly witty and amusing most of the time, and their interactions can be quite enjoyable. But the Living Story has decided that they are the focal point of the entire game, shackling our main characters to these five strangers and declaring them to be the protagonists of the franchise. This is flawed. It does not make sense from a narrative perspective, and it won’t do the series any favors in presenting interesting and compelling stories in the days to come.

In keeping with my oddball format, I’d like to present six reasons why the Biconics are a problem, and offer an example from the Living Story Season 1 of magnificent storytelling as a model for future tales. Rather than interject any of my own speculation or fanfiction into the mixture, I’d like you to solely consider the characters from the game itself who could be at the forefront of the narrative between these two posts.

Ready? Here we go!

In summary, the constant focus on the Biconics is not doing the world any favors. The authors’ favorite band of underdogs is not enough to carry the Guild Wars franchise, and the constant insistence that they claim the spotlight in every story is simply not a good narrative foundation.

This is not to say they are bad characters. Far from it, they are well developed side characters who breathe life into a different niche of Tyria than the traditional frontline hero. But they are still side characters. They are not the fulcrum upon which the entire Guild Wars franchise pivots, and we need to grow beyond their perspective in order to move forward.

If the authors want to write a novel for the Biconics, go for it. It will probably be excellent.

But a massively multiplayer video game is not a novel, and the world of Tyria does not revolve around this small band of insignificant adventurers. It’s a far grander and magnificent realm, full of vibrant stories and fascinating characters. But as long as the authors believe that they have to have a “core cast” in order to tell a good story, we will never go beyond their diminutive role in the world and see what is beyond the next narrative horizon.

A rotating cast can give us that freedom. It can mean stories of intrigue and deception as we accompany Doern Velazquez and Halvora Snapdagger on direct orders from a certain Master of Whispers. Travel with Dougal Keane, Ember Doomforge, and Gullik Oddsson on daring adventures of discovery! Fight side by side with Laranthir of the Wild and Warmaster Efut. From Galina Edgecrusher and Snarl Backdraft to Demmi Beetlestone and Lord Faren, the Havrouns Weibe and Gretchen to Gorr and Occam, Ogden Stonehealer to Sayeh al’Rajihd, Followed By Night to Izu Steelshrike, the world is filled with hundreds of fascinating characters and compelling storylines (many of which I can’t mention due to the word count limit on posts). All it requires is the will to reach out and grasp it.

We cannot be the main protagonist, because the player character must be enough of a blank slate to let people project their own motivations and personality onto our actions. But that does not mean the world needs a core cast, especially ones that are so obviously side characters in the living story of the realm. The cast for a particular story should depend on the setting: Ascalonian stories require Ascalonian characters, Priory stories require Priory characters, political stories require nobles and statesman, and so forth.

And so I conclude this simple piece of advice. Let the Biconics step out of the spotlight, and use a rotating cast to explore the fascinating facets of this world. Because at the end of the day, there is only one core protagonist for the Guild Wars Franchise…

…and her name is Tyria.

I usually don’t write stuff like this out because I don’t think anyone really cares about my opinion, but here we go!

I disagree with you good sir, and I will address my problems with your thinking based on your numbers!

1. We have no reason to accompany these people.

Have you ever been through a really troubling moment in your life? The friends that help you through it and have your back are crucial! Ok, maybe they aren’t the best people around or the best people for the job, but they were the ones who were there. That forms a real bond that you don’t just throw away at a moment’s notice.

Yes, maybe you didn’t like Scarlet as a villian (I personally did not either), but she was a pretty horrific villian if you look at what she managed to do (whether you think it was done well or not). She destroyed a major city and caused probably thousands of deaths. The biconics helped stop that. If a group of people helped me put down a mad psychopath, I would probably want to keep them close by.

2. We are better friends with better people.

This is very true, we are friends with better people. Still, these better people don’t have all the time in the world to go adventuring. If my lore is correct (which it probably isn’t) the pact is composed of the 3 orders. Now, if I remember correctly, those 3 orders are primarily idependant and only really work together to defeat Zhaitan. So, once Zhaitan is defeated, why wouldn’t they go back to doing what they usually do? Maybe they will come back together once they personally believe the threat is real enough. In the PS, it took some time before they decided to put aside their differences and join together for the greater good.

As far as Eir, Logan, Rytlock, etc. are concerned, they are busy people with responsibilities outside of adventuring with us. Yea, we are friends with them and can call on them for help, but they aren’t going to go with us to investigate every random event that comes out. The biconics work perfectly here because they don’t really have a lot of stuff holding them back from going wherever we want them to!

3. The biconics do not represent Tyria as a whole.

This also is partly true, but I don’t want to be traveling with characters that are just exposition machines that only talk to tell me how the world works. These just people of their own race. Occassionally Kasmeer will talk about politics, occassionally Taimi will be visited by the higher ups so we can see what asuran culture is like. That is how life works for people. They aren’t 100% always wrapped up in their own people’s culture, especially not when they are traveling adventurers.

4. The biconics simply aren’t important to the world.

This point really just goes back to point number 2 for me. Yea, they really aren’t all that important, but thats kinda the point. The important people all have other things to do. The red tape and busy work that comes with being an important person is horrific. I don’t want to be waiting for Rytlock to have approval to help me out with hunting Scarlet when we don’t even have any proof of who she is.

I do agree with you that it would be nice if these characters had more of an emotional attachment with wanting to fight the villian of the day (like with Luke and Vader), but they are building towards that with Jori’s revenge story I suppose.

5. We have moved beyond the underdog role.

I do believe this is a good point. Still, as I mentioned earlier, just because we are great heroes doesn’t mean we can force people to do whatever we want. We can’t just go up to the queen and tell her that shes gonna send the Seraph to help us. It just doesn’t work that way. Sure, we are influential, and that is why Eir and Rytlock both agree to help us.

Those 2 both have pull in their respective societies and believe us when we say the threat it dire. So, they devise a way to help us get the leaders to the summit. They know the leaders are busy with trying to defend their lands. We can’t go up to their leaders and force them to come, they believe they have duty to their people. So, they agree to help if we can lessen the burden they have.

I have already made my arguement about the pact; so, I won’t repeat it.

6. The biconics are literally The Scooby Gang.

This is really just a cheap metaphor that you are using for laughs. It was funny, but I don’t really see any point in discussing it.

I really like your points, and I agree that critically analyzing this stuff is a good way to help make it better. I also believe that the LS season 2 is not perfect. I do believe that it is a giant leap in the right direction though. It is equally as important though to show where the points you are making just don’t really hold up under scrutiny.

Just saying Grechen is dead

While I would love to get into this discussion once more, it does tire me that in the end, it serves no real purpose. However it is a very well displayed opinion, and I encourage the topic fully.

On the other hand… Doern Velazquez is a horrible, shallow and cliched character and by no means do I wish to see him acquire more screen time than necessary. Grechen is quite dead indeed, too, as mentioned above.

Carry on!

YeOldeMoose.8716:

I usually don’t write stuff like this out because I don’t think anyone really cares about my opinion, but here we go!

This is some good constructive criticism, right out of the gate. You should write more often.

I suppose I’ll have to respond equally in kind, beginning in the silliest place…

YeOldeMoose.8716:

6. The biconics are literally The Scooby Gang.

This is really just a cheap metaphor that you are using for laughs. It was funny, but I don’t really see any point in discussing it.

Humor me a moment as I extend the metaphor and hopefully answer the other points.

It is extremely important for an author to be genre savvy. You don’t tell an epic legend like you do a buddy cop comedy, nor a thrilling suspense flick, nor a heartrending romance. But as Season 2 of the Living Story rolls out, we appear to be running into a major genre problem.

See, the Biconics are street level underdogs. They are a spunky group of relatively unknown do-gooders who uncover mysteries that escape the authority’s notice and defeat cartoonish villains who would have gotten away with it if it weren’t for those meddling kids. As the sixth member of this group, we are mostly just a blunt instrument, a scrappy fighter who can shepherd the team through trouble due to our sheer combat prowess. Not exactly glamorous, but it passes the time. And they’re pretty fun to be around on a good day. They have witty dialogue, amusing interactions, and lovable charm. After a harrowing ordeal in a horrible war, they have been a welcome vacation from misery and despair.

But the vacation’s over. Mordremoth is rising in the west and Tyria must once again ready itself for war. Corruption is spreading across the continent, strongholds falling before the eldritch onslaught of a botanical bane. But to counterattack the coming doom, the vanguard of heroism that will safeguard the world from the apocalypse is….the Mystery Machine?

Street level heroes don’t save the world. That’s part of the definition of street level conflicts. But instead of returning to the massive paramilitary organization which we command, we’re stuck dealing with petty melodrama and and family crisis of five acquaintances who will not be able to withstand the coming war. Kas and Jory are way too emotionally compromised to serve as soldiers. Taking Taimi onto the battlefield would be criminal negligence. Rox and Braham may be able to fight, but they are nowhere near the paragons of martial prowess have bought beside in the past. So we must come to grips with a simple fact: we don’t have to stay with these people. We are not Scrappy Doo bound by family bonds to these meddling kids. We are the Dragonslayer, and the Dragon has returned. We may not be able to force other Powers That Be to agree with us…but we walk through the front door like every other leader when we want to negotiate.

Winter has come. The songs and laughter of summer must fade, and the defenders of home and hearth must shoulder arms once again to stave off the dying of the light. The time has come for the underdogs to return to the sidelines, and to loose the hounds of war. We must leave the Biconics behind and reclaim our mantle as a defender of Tyria.

And in so doing, maybe we’ll discover that we never really needed these people in the first place (the heroism was in you the whole time!). After all, do you really think Season 3 of the Living Story should center on the Biconics? How about Seasons 4 and 5? Or maybe, just maybe, there are other interesting people that we could meet across the world for glorious adventure. Perhaps we will adventure with a Vigil crew as they take on a mighty beast in the Shiverpeaks. Or maybe we’ll help the Ebonhawk delegation and partner up with members of the Legions and Fallen Angels for a time. Perhaps the Peacekeepers and Wardens will want our help against the threats of Maguuma, or the Whispers agents combining forces with Shining Blade require assistance against unseen foes. Because we do need friend and allies in our adventures…but no single set of heroes is more important than the rest of the world.

The Biconics are interesting people, but they’ve had their moment in the spotlight. It’s time to move on. We’ve got things to do and dragons to kill, and the change in genre from underdog crime fighting to massive war story requires a change in cast.

….Oh, and one more thing.

Just saying Grechen is dead

…………..I knew I forgot something. Perhaps she is only mostly dead?

Shriketalon.1937:

It is extremely important for an author to be genre savvy. You don’t tell an epic legend like you do a buddy cop comedy

Really?

looks at Tybalt

Why does everyone love this dummy, then?

GeminiArcher.7809:

Shriketalon.1937:

It is extremely important for an author to be genre savvy. You don’t tell an epic legend like you do a buddy cop comedy

Really?

looks at Tybalt

Why does everyone love this dummy, then?

I don’t know either. Sieran’s far funnier, and a way better character.

It seems more realistic, and/or entertaining (to me), to follow the rise of the world-renown heroes, than to just adventure along-side them after they are renown.

If we were to go back in time, maybe the Iconics story would have been similiar. They had to be unknown ‘street-level’ nobodies once, didn’t they? Or were they just born world-renown adulated heroes? I don’t know, as I know little of their past history.

At least, with the Biconics, we get to grow with them, and truly forge some bonds over time. But, that’s just my take on it. /shrug

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

At least, with the Biconics, we get to grow with them, and truly forge some bonds over time.

Relatively, anyways. As now Anet’s take on that bit appears to be “you form your bonds off screen and so does everyone else, even information gathering is off screen, we want the on-screen to be about plot advancement”, so.

I’m still disappointed the Molten Alliance told us nothing about Flame Legion. It’s too bad too, because that would’ve been a great opportunity to expand on the charr storyline.

Food for thought:
The third picture summarizing Job-o-Tron hits the nail on the head.

If I may inject my own thoughts, I think it would be best to compare Job-O-Tron to Majora’s Mask. The entire WORLD of Majora’s Mask was so rich and endearing, even though most of the characters were mostly just side characters. Perhaps the most memorable were Anju and Kafei, but also the plotline involving Gorman.

See this for Gorman’s sub-plot
http://www.zeldawiki.org/Gorman

There were huge, HUGE amounts of sub-plot going on in only the 3 days of Majora’s Mask, and massive amounts of character development for nearly every citizen of the city. Most importantly, the game actually SHOWS you the day-to-day life of characters, for example, Gorman playing cards on the second day.

That’s how I think Living World should be. Not forcing the commander of the Pact to waste time with a ragtag band of misfits we have no reason to be travelling with.

agree with OP. Particularly re Scooby gang. Hated the cartoon in its heyday, hate it now in Tyria.

“But the Living Story has decided that they are the focal point of the entire game, shackling our main characters to these five strangers and declaring them to be the protagonists of the franchise. This is flawed. It does not make sense from a narrative perspective, and it won’t do the series any favors in presenting interesting and compelling stories in the days to come.”

The flaw is actually to have these guys doing the adventuring thing and then throwing international events into the mix as well. The scope of the writing cannot handle all the different national responses to events. The international scope brings in too many characters and they are not given enough depth. Far too much is omitted (because it is too much work) so realism is lost.

I suspect that some of the problems will get solved soon. I’m guessing the group will expand and an extra person this season, and also next season. I’m guessing the Pact will dissolve. I’m guessing Destiny’s Edge will be otherwise occupied and leave business to the new adventurers. As soon it becomes “Us vs the world”, all the questions about the purpose of these characters will vanish.

I’ve not been able to resolve why we haven’t gone straight to the pact now that we know the dragon is loose. Or, why the leaders of the nations, who know what we did to Zaitan, wouldn’t bend over backwards to hear what we have to say.

There were heroes even back in guild wars 1, that would follow you around. And they had more internal struggles, character and problems to solve as 7 or so members of the same race, from different faction, united against the common evil then this 5 different character from 4 of the difference races and connected to important racial figures EVER had between them.
They just go along far too well, and the exposition of their personality takes chunks away from the world around you. At least for me. While back in the first guild wars, yes they had their own personalities but by none was forced besides some cutscenes where you’d just sit back and watch anyway.
I’ll always remember Koss, Dunkoro, Melonni, Tahlkora, Zhed and Morgham from Nightfall. Like how Dunkoro suggestions can help you get accross a zone easier. How Melonni and Koss had different opinions. How Zhed learned to appreciate you, even if you’re human. And how Morgham changes sides to help you.

All of this characters had their own problems, bigger or smaller, or their own view on what’s more important. They had different opinions and each one of them made them important in the whole story.

Meanwhile in gw2, every single character goes along PERFECTLY. No one doubts you, no one dares suggest an approach. No one questions the others actions.
In my eyes the Destiny Edge 2.0 fails when it’s together as a group. Because without a reason to debate and improve among them self (and I don’t mean ragequit drama like the first DE) they just look like the bland group that follows your very steps and orders. As if they don’t have their own agenda. If that’s the case then to me they might as well be necromancer minions with stereotypical english accent and they might even work better.

Now, dose any of this make sense or am I just seeings this trough nostalgia goggles after playing the gw1 campains again?

Synesh.1094:

Now, dose any of this make sense or am I just seeings this trough nostalgia goggles after playing the gw1 campains again?

Yes, you are seeing things through the nostalgia goggles. The Nightfall heroes were nice but they were either the first step to dragging the limelight fully away from the player (as many claim Kormir did and Traherne does) or unnecessary baggage to be forced to work with (I have a team to kill Varesh, WHY do I need General Morgahn with me?!).

They all had character, but most of the time they were as flat as the biconics and Destiny’s Edge are claimed to be. Especially Koss, as amusing and fun as he was.

The OP tries laboriously to make the point of the biconics not carrying GW2, and I’d add the heroes couldn’t carry Nightfall or Eye of the North. Boy is it a good thing they didn’t have to . . . and it’s a good thing the biconics aren’t making an attempt carrying GW2.

. . . yet.

Blockhead Magee.3092:

I’ve not been able to resolve why we haven’t gone straight to the pact now that we know the dragon is loose. Or, why the leaders of the nations, who know what we did to Zaitan, wouldn’t bend over backwards to hear what we have to say.

The pact is now involved. Trahearne sent a letter at the behest of the Pale Tree to the player letting us know that he's attending the summit. I always thought the logic of not going to the Pact first is that the Pact are experts on Zhaitan and Zhaitan is not Mordremoth. Elder Dragons behave in very different ways and knowledge on the inner workings of one dragon isn’t necessarily going to help you win against another. Not only that, even with Zhaitan defeated, the Risen are somehow still a large threat in Orr. It wasn’t completely resolved how long the remnants of Zhaitan’s army will last from a lore perspective. But I can’t imagine it will be too much longer.

I will speak for myself, when I say this:
- I looked forward to seeing Rox join a warband because it is so important for the charr, and it was so important for her. Then we could check in on what the dev team would implement of optional lore (like with job-o-tron) as we progressed with our adventures.
Same thing with the rest of the biconics. The thing is that, to me, it seemed as though each of the characters had personal goals, which I think should have been the priority.

- Rox could, as said, join the warband. She’d have less time for her former team mates but we have history with both Rytlock and Rox and maybe their entire warband would join up later to help in the fight against Mordremoth. That would’ve been an alternative to how the Dragon’s Reach could have played out (though the ending could remain the same as it is now – looking forward. Excited.)
- Taimi could go through the studies of her college, maybe even faster due to her being extremely gifted even for an asura.
- Braham could return to Cragstead, go hunt some prey, and we’d catch up once Jormag would rear his icy face at us.
- Kas and Marjory (I will say that their dialogue seems forced… as though they “have” to discuss their relationship at the most inappropriate of times… because that’s where they develop – my point being that the whole lesbian thing there, seems more as being politically correct and just having it to represent the gay part of the community rather than it being there because it has importance and bears weight to the plot) – but as said, Kas and Marjory could solve their little detective work (though the Seraph seem to deal with bandits and stuff within the walls of the Reach as well… odd career choice..? Don’t know) and have their daily life and a house or whatever.

In short, all the characters had better things to do after we dealt with Scarlet. Their hopes and dreams individually would be their driving force, and a reason for us to keep ourselves ajour with how their endeavours went.
- We had our “adventure” together. Having the team split up to persue personal goals would make more sense… and then maybe join forces once again as the story with Mordremoth continued.

- I think that would have made a lot more sense rather than “We’re a team now, we can’t split up. Best friends 4ever!”
I’m inclined to agree with OP. Not in that we shouldn’t hang out with the Biconics, but that they have their own goals to achieve. However, that should not exclude the possibility to join forces again during Season 2.

Becka Williams.4978:

GeminiArcher.7809:

Shriketalon.1937:

It is extremely important for an author to be genre savvy. You don’t tell an epic legend like you do a buddy cop comedy

Really?

looks at Tybalt

Why does everyone love this dummy, then?

I don’t know either. Sieran’s far funnier, and a way better character.

You did NOT just say that!
- I have no idea how she got to be a Magister in the first place. Unable to take orders, takes the new recruit into a pretty dangerous territory. Yeah, sure. WE could handle those dangers, but imagine if it was another recruit, who couldn’t? Imagine if that recruit had died? The scandal it would be for her.
- Instead of having a more “Listen, I know we’re supposed to go straight to the Durmand Priory HQ, but if we don’t rescue some of these artifacts, they may be gone forever.” take on the situation she’s more like “Hey, there’s artifacts. Don’t be a sourpuss, asuran who is my superior (or something), it will be fun.” and has a happy go lucky attitude with a hint of “Was in the right place at the right time” – which made her seem more stupid and unaware of the weight of her actions in endangering a new member of the order.

- Sorry, but I HAD to get that off my chest. Your post almost gave me cancer. :P

Hehe, I’m with Becka actually. I do like Tybalt, but for some reason, I just bonded with Sieran more. I liked her chipper attitude, and she did start deferring to me as the PS went on.

Now, as to the OP’s post!

1. I do agree that feels weird that the Commander of the Pact, Slayer of Zhaitan, suddenly decides to step down and go off adventuring. He or she is a figure of great renown, and as second-in-command of the Pact, has connections and resources that they can leverage to great use against Mordremoth. Yet they do nothing of the sort throughout the entire Living Story. It’s rather baffling.

2. But that said, I DO like the Biconics and I’m not dissatisfied with the “adventuring party” feel that’s grown up around them with my PCs. While I can see the similarities between them and the Scooby Gang, that still does not distract from their charm. I would not like to see them removed or given a smaller role in subsequent Living Story arcs.

3. I also agree that we do need to see a wider cast as part of the Living Story. Having a Charr character’s warband members show up as allies for a boss fight, for example, would do wonders in helping tie things back to a PC’s origins. We should definitely have side story arcs that do not directly tie in with Mordremoth intersect with the Living Story from time to time. The world is not solely concerned with the Elder Dragons; any number of existing hostile factions have not given up their goals just because there’s a new Elder Dragon on the scene.

4. I disagree about Job-o-Tron though. I find him to be something of a recurring gag that’s kind of overstayed his welcome. What’s more, his existence alone raises many more troubling issues regarding the nature of golems and their role in Tyria. Why is JoT, alone among all golems in the world, sentient? Is it superior technology that has granted him his intelligence? Or do all golems possess this intelligence, but are prevented from expressing it due to the “sedition inhibitor chip”? JoT is clearly intended as an amusing side character to bring levity to situations, but nobody ever seems to grasp the impact of conversing with what appears to be a completely sentient, intelligent golem. It’s as if, in real life, the President of the United States suddenly got a talking dog as an adviser, and instead of everybody going bananas over the fact that “WOAH, a talking dog!”, everybody instead is concerned over the dog’s stance on fiscal policy or immigration.

Sinifair.1026:

Becka Williams.4978:

GeminiArcher.7809:

Shriketalon.1937:

It is extremely important for an author to be genre savvy. You don’t tell an epic legend like you do a buddy cop comedy

Really?

looks at Tybalt

Why does everyone love this dummy, then?

I don’t know either. Sieran’s far funnier, and a way better character.

You did NOT just say that!
- I have no idea how she got to be a Magister in the first place. Unable to take orders, takes the new recruit into a pretty dangerous territory. Yeah, sure. WE could handle those dangers, but imagine if it was another recruit, who couldn’t? Imagine if that recruit had died? The scandal it would be for her.
- Instead of having a more “Listen, I know we’re supposed to go straight to the Durmand Priory HQ, but if we don’t rescue some of these artifacts, they may be gone forever.” take on the situation she’s more like “Hey, there’s artifacts. Don’t be a sourpuss, asuran who is my superior (or something), it will be fun.” and has a happy go lucky attitude with a hint of “Was in the right place at the right time” – which made her seem more stupid and unaware of the weight of her actions in endangering a new member of the order.

- Sorry, but I HAD to get that off my chest. Your post almost gave me cancer. :P

I consider Tybalt to be far more of a screw up than Sieran. Yeah, she a bit flighty, but you can tell she loves being in the Priory. Plus, she develops a crush on the PC. Nothing wrong with that.

I’m not going to go too far off topic but Tybalt and Sieran, and Forgal were all wastes of interesting potential in the PS. That is all.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Yes, you are seeing things through the nostalgia goggles. The Nightfall heroes were nice but they were either the first step to dragging the limelight fully away from the player (as many claim Kormir did and Traherne does) or unnecessary baggage to be forced to work with (I have a team to kill Varesh, WHY do I need General Morgahn with me?!).

They all had character, but most of the time they were as flat as the biconics and Destiny’s Edge are claimed to be. Especially Koss, as amusing and fun as he was.

The OP tries laboriously to make the point of the biconics not carrying GW2, and I’d add the heroes couldn’t carry Nightfall or Eye of the North. Boy is it a good thing they didn’t have to . . . and it’s a good thing the biconics aren’t making an attempt carrying GW2.

. . . yet.

I agree with everything in your post except the emboldened part. The biconics are, for all intents and purposes, the new main characters of Guild Wars

Becka Williams.4978:

Sinifair.1026:

Becka Williams.4978:

GeminiArcher.7809:

Shriketalon.1937:

It is extremely important for an author to be genre savvy. You don’t tell an epic legend like you do a buddy cop comedy

Really?

looks at Tybalt

Why does everyone love this dummy, then?

I don’t know either. Sieran’s far funnier, and a way better character.

You did NOT just say that!
- I have no idea how she got to be a Magister in the first place. Unable to take orders, takes the new recruit into a pretty dangerous territory. Yeah, sure. WE could handle those dangers, but imagine if it was another recruit, who couldn’t? Imagine if that recruit had died? The scandal it would be for her.
- Instead of having a more “Listen, I know we’re supposed to go straight to the Durmand Priory HQ, but if we don’t rescue some of these artifacts, they may be gone forever.” take on the situation she’s more like “Hey, there’s artifacts. Don’t be a sourpuss, asuran who is my superior (or something), it will be fun.” and has a happy go lucky attitude with a hint of “Was in the right place at the right time” – which made her seem more stupid and unaware of the weight of her actions in endangering a new member of the order.

- Sorry, but I HAD to get that off my chest. Your post almost gave me cancer. :P

I consider Tybalt to be far more of a screw up than Sieran. Yeah, she a bit flighty, but you can tell she loves being in the Priory. Plus, she develops a crush on the PC. Nothing wrong with that.

Still have to play the entire Priory storyline, since I re-made the character I had sent down that route, but her initial first impression on me was “Did she just reject the orders she’d been given?!?” – Maybe in the end I’ll have a different impression of her, I don’t know, but I just couldn’t take it seriously, compared to how the characters in GW1 acted, which was with a more serious take on the dire matter at hand.

And Tybalt? I remember the charr from GW1 and the GW2 teasers. These charr were vicious and confident about their fighting capabilities, unlike Tybalt who don’t trust in himself. Sure, we get that the former warband died and he’s traumatized somewhat, but really?
- And the way that we enter the Order of Whispers in GW1 as opposed to GW2?
You wouldn’t find them, they’d find you… and the awkward “Uh, apples! Nothing to see here but apples, folks.” didn’t do the Order of Whispers that I knew from GW1 justice.

But lets keep it on track here, which is about the Living Story progression.
- I shall comment no longer on this matter, and my response to OP’s post is already on this thread. Hope that the devs can take some important feedback with them from this post.

Shrike, THANK YOU, firstly for being one of the few to point out exactly why the Biconics are not that special.

As much as I have liked my traveling with jory and kas, rox, braham and taimi, I feel like the points Shrike makes here are exactly relevant and perhaps exactly what I was trying to say with my own forum topic.

But thank you none the less for being one of the few that will openly stand up to the problem they present and why they just cannot carry the “living world” for us.

People need to realize the Living World has a plethora of potential that is being ignored, the consortium, the lions arch crew, the main chars of DE and the various races of Tyria, the Pact and the Orders.

Where the hell are they in this story about us and the 5 man nobodies?

As much as I like the crew and their potential I feel like they need to be their own deal and less of a thing “we” need to manage or care for since their presence has become less of an iconic value and more of a nuisance.

I feel that A-net needs to pull a sword art online with the Biconics, perhaps being a really good way to motivate the player to care about them.

What are you talking about, Sword Art Online?

In SA:O Spoilers Kirito the main character attempts to save a group of newbies that ultimately ends in their summary slaughter because of his own over confidence, this essentially means every member of that group dies leaving him a changed person because of the experience.

I, feel, the same thing, should happen to the Biconics.

Some might say that’s pointless after all we’ve been through but I argue its entirely the opposite, it would give them so much more context to show that having lost them meant something, we were responsible for THEIR deaths which could be a seriously impact evoking way to get the player to be more interested and invested in future regular characters and cast that we could in future try more to ‘save’.

This could give us a chance to bring DE back into the spotlight as the old crew we worked with once and are determined to never let something as tragic as the downfall of the Biconics befall again.

Personally, I feel their presence has been a decent try from A-net but its clearly not enough to make an entire season over and over about 5 people that are voice actor dependent and equally story dependent to progress the story itself.

This could give a lot of DE based progression too, Eir blaming you for her sons death, Rytlock furious at you for Rox and so, you’d have to make up TO them to earn their respect again and that actually makes SENSE rather than forcing it.

Every member of DE would have their own way of ‘re-acting’ to your mistake, maybe this is equally what makes treesus take your rights to pact commander away, feeling that maybe you’re not ready, and thus, causing a mutiny against you.

That, to me, is what would give actual progression, things that make sense, and drive the changes forward.

darkace.8925:

I agree with everything in your post except the emboldened part. The biconics are, for all intents and purposes, the new main characters of Guild Wars

I disagree. The intent is for the player characters to be the driving personality to make things happen, not the biconics who are merely characters to be moved into the proper locations for them to be useful. The purpose of them is as a resource to be used in the solo instance method of storytelling in case the player doesn’t always have friends to help out (which is actually a somewhat strong way of making sure there’s a coherent story rather than having it all open world).

They have the spotlight, but because they’re around us, rather than us being in the spotlight because we follow them. Therefore, they are not the main characters, we are.

CaptainVanguard.4925:

I feel that A-net needs to pull a sword art online with the Biconics, perhaps being a really good way to motivate the player to care about them.

And I feel it’d be more impactful if they wrote it as a “Lower Decks” type storyline where they are in focus for a short time until one of them is killed doing something dangerous and Destiny’s Edge return to the spotlight knowing in essence they let someone die so they could play the politics of their own race rather than act for the good of Tyria.

Don’t repeat the same thing which happened already with Snaff’s death causing drama, because that is what you’re describing, in essence.

Taimi should die as a lesson to all overconfident asura.

“You’re dumb, you’ll die dumb, and leave a dumb corpse”

I’d love that.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

They have the spotlight, but because they’re around us, rather than us being in the spotlight because we follow them. Therefore, they are not the main characters, we are.

I fundamentally disagree with the assertion. We are not the main characters of the story the authors are telling. Two reasons.

First and foremost, the way the story is outlined is based entirely around the Biconics: their motivations, their capabilities, their connections, and their way of solving problems.

When faced with a horrible threat of the unknown, we didn’t call in air support. We relied on five amateurs to handle the situation. When we discovered a murder mystery revolving around the apparent insanity of a sylvari, we didn’t bother to make inquiries towards any sylvari we knew. We just went with the gut instinct of a small group who didn’t know anything about our favorite resident plant people. When we encountered what looked to be dragon minions, we didn’t investigate using the expertise of the Priory team who were already in the area, nor sent for reinforcements from our dragon-fighting subordinates who have a particular set of skills, skills which are honed for this purpose alone. No, we let a child figure out what was going on.

When we discovered Mordremoth’s vines were infesting the world and hunting down magical artifacts…we didn’t share that information with anyone. No missives, no sharing intel, no frantic messages on down the chain of command yelling “THERE’S A DRAGON COMING FOR YOUR SHINIES, GET THE SWAG ONTO AIRSHIPS NOW!” As a result, our people got killed. We lost lives because we didn’t command.

When it became clear that an Elder Dragon was rising, our first reaction was to turn to the five amateurs beside us and say “anyone have any idea what to do?” They put together a scrambled plan about begging their parents, mentors, and teachers to intervene….intervention which was entirely unnecessary, because we have already met half the leaders in question. And we have famous hero friends to connect us to the other half.

Every single plot point is being phrased with the question “how would the Biconics handle this?” They’re the main characters.

And if you don’t believe that’s the case, I’d put forth the second point, one that’s a bit shorter.

Angel McCoy.1832:

The whole “Commander” topic is another discussion entirely.

Bottom line is that, at the beginning of the Pact (almost 2 years ago in-game time), you were “The Commander.” After Zhaitan was killed, the Pact continued on and you went off into the world to do stuff. At that point, other commanders were brought on, and you become “A Commander.” And you became a commander who had lots of other things to do besides running an army that was repairing, preparing, and stocking up for the next big battle with the Elder Dragons. We could not build a story on that alone, not a good one that made sense, not considering where we want the story to take you. Any time anyone calls you “The Commander” now, it’s someone being nostalgic. It’s perhaps more correct to say you were “The First Commander.”

That’s one of the main writers, Angel McCoy, in the other thread. And what she says is, in my mind, perfect proof that your assertion is incorrect.

Our character development happened offscreen. No, seriously. Our character development happened completely offscreen. We went from grand commander in charge of the entire pact to a wandering has-been, completely without the game actually showing that scene or giving us that character development. The head writers are telling a story where our transition from one pivotal role in history to a nostalgic figurehead is something they don’t even need a cinematic or story instance to gloss over.

Now, I know that’s not entirely fair, and the fact is that the inability to do proper cutscenes with the player character speaking is restraining the writers. And heck, I’m still mad that this “change in role” doesn’t actually happen in game, it’s just an idle forum post.

But that’s the story they’re telling, and the degree to which our character development is relevant to their plot. How much time have we spent on Biconic melodrama, from their romances and camaraderie to their loss and despair? Because according to the head writers, they are delivering a very different perspective for our PCs than the end of the Personal Story…but baby-feline if they can spare the slightest effort to actually put it in game.

We aren’t the focus of the Living Story thus far. We’re a strong and silent has-been trailing along for the Biconic Power Hour. And that’s not how it should be.

May I add something in here? Personally, I sort of disagree. Here’s why:

Since when are important characters important from birth? Even Destiny’s Edge wasn’t.

Did you ever read the books? I didn’t read them, but even I know the overall plot of them. Simply put, Destiny’s Edge started out roughly the same way the biconics did to some extent, and then made their way into being famous. Hell, even we, as player characters, started out relatively unimportant in our respective racial storyline and it isn’t until we interact with people who are already important (Destiny’s Edge, for example), that we become important.

If it weren’t for meeting and getting to know our respective racial mentor (Rytlock, Caithe, Eir, Zojja, Logan), we never would have been placed in a position with the orders. In-fact, it’s our racial mentor that refers us to them. I doubt they would have considered us as PCs had a member of Destiny’s Edge not recommended us to them.

It is in the same way that a member of Destiny’s Edge helps us become famous, that we as PCs help the biconics become famous.

EDIT: Want to note there is actually one good point you make, and that has to do with the PCs and their seeming unimportance. You’re right when you say that the Commander should be considered as much more influential in the story than it has been, but to say that we are “above the biconics” and that “we are friends with better people” for example, just… no.

@YeOldeMoose.8716

Your second and fourth points have an easy counter.

In your second point you discuss how the big wigs have important things to do and don’t have time for us. Our PCs are big wigs. We are doing important things. The Molten Alliance was a threat to both the norn and the charr. So the norn and charr big wigs were concerned about it, they didn’t have better things to do. If you pay attention to the details (it played background because the biconics take the spotlight) the Vigil was tracking the Molten Facilities and the OOW infiltrated the alliance. So The important characters and factions of the past didn’t have more important things to do, they were there, we just had to look really hard to see them because less important people took centre stage (because they were more important to the writers). This is repeated throughout the entirety of season one (and even season two – we are in Maguuma investigating a dragon but the first time we have any contact with the Pact – of which we are still members – is when Trahearne contacts us). The biconics are not dragon experts, there must be more suitable people in Tyria to go on a dragon seeking mission.

I also think the fourth point (that the biconics aren’t important to the world) still stands. Working with unimportant characters only makes sense when the challenge itself is unimportant (by comparison to the most important things). The more important the threats in the plot become, the less believable it is that we work with nobodies. Not only are we somebody, but the other sombodies of the world should be taking threats seriously (when they don’t, the world of Tyria looks stupid – like the sheer incompetence that led to Lion’s Arch being destroyed). When Scarlet sets up camp under Priory HQ and builds what is essentially a nuclear missile launch pad just over the hills from their HQ (and a few hundred meters north of a Priory camp) it’s insane that the only five people turning up for the marionette fight (aside from the PCs) are the biconics. If the Living Story is covering small conflicts and side stories, having small time players take the field makes sense. If the story is dealing with world threatening conflicts, villains with enough power to level a city and a new Elder Dragon, why turn up with a bunch of nobodies?

We frequently work with less important NPCs – renown heart NPCs, event NPCs, small scale PS steps and dungeon paths. Working with the little people makes sense, but taking down Modremoth by exclusively working with NPCs like Mona (the caravan escort NPC in Queensdale) wouldn’t make sense.

I’d like to talk about Problem 3 from the OP. The biconics don’t represent Tyria as a whole. I personally think Rox is in the most danger of taking this one too far. Aside from her physical attributes (which are very controversial in the charr community), I don’t feel like her story as a charr accurately represents her circumstances. She lost her warband and became a gladium. Being a gladium is supposed to be a big deal, like a big deal. Spend time time in the gladium quarters in the Black Citadel and see how bad it’s supposed to be for those people. Rox never comes across as being one of the lowest ranking charr in Tyria – she frequently has access to Rytlock, a high ranking charr, and her desperation to regain some status in charr culture is completely overshadowed by her decision to turn her back on charr culture (and her mission) to join Braham. The idea that she lost a family and sought out a new one (finding it in the biconics) was fine, but she was a weak portrayal of what a gladium is supposed to experience, aside from working with races other than charr (which isn’t that weird) she doesn’t come off as an outcast. She has an incredible amount of agency for such a low ranking member of the military. Then in the latest release, she summons Rytlock and he not only grants her an audience, but he completely shrugs off the fact that Rox disregarded his order and went AWOL. Now Rox is a “free agent”, seriously? She went from lowest rung on the ladder, having more agency and autonomy than almost every charr I’ve come across. Rox should have been a chance to tell a story about a gladium charr and an intimate look at their lives and experiences, instead it was used as a simple hook to join the biconics and is discarded whenever she needs to be used as charr NPC.

Shriketalon.1937:

I fundamentally disagree with the assertion. We are not the main characters of the story the authors are telling.

And I quite strongly disagree with the idea this has nothing to do with my character. Because, honestly, it’s not happening unless Tobias decides he wants to do anything about it. If he isn’t there, things will fail or fall apart.

First and foremost, the way the story is outlined is based entirely around the Biconics: their motivations, their capabilities, their connections, and their way of solving problems.

We upgraded Mordremoth to biconic?

When faced with a horrible threat of the unknown, we didn’t call in air support. We relied on five amateurs to handle the situation. When we discovered a murder mystery revolving around the apparent insanity of a sylvari, we didn’t bother to make inquiries towards any sylvari we knew. We just went with the gut instinct of a small group who didn’t know anything about our favorite resident plant people. When we encountered what looked to be dragon minions, we didn’t investigate using the expertise of the Priory team who were already in the area, nor sent for reinforcements from our dragon-fighting subordinates who have a particular set of skills, skills which are honed for this purpose alone. No, we let a child figure out what was going on.

I’d dissect this point but I think it’d be a waste of space since you’re already dead set on taking it this way. I’ll leave it at “I strongly disagree with your reasoning”.

When we discovered Mordremoth’s vines were infesting the world and hunting down magical artifacts…we didn’t share that information with anyone. No missives, no sharing intel, no frantic messages on down the chain of command yelling “THERE’S A DRAGON COMING FOR YOUR SHINIES, GET THE SWAG ONTO AIRSHIPS NOW!” As a result, our people got killed. We lost lives because we didn’t command.

Repeating: “I strongly disagree with your reasoning”.

And if you don’t believe that’s the case, I’d put forth the second point, one that’s a bit shorter.

That’s one of the main writers, Angel McCoy, in the other thread. And what she says is, in my mind, perfect proof that your assertion is incorrect.

I don’t think it is.

Our character development happened offscreen. No, seriously. Our character development happened completely offscreen. We went from grand commander in charge of the entire pact to a wandering has-been, completely without the game actually showing that scene or giving us that character development. The head writers are telling a story where our transition from one pivotal role in history to a nostalgic figurehead is something they don’t even need a cinematic or story instance to gloss over.

There are many holes and sins of the storytelling which is being put together rapidly for the Living Story. This isn’t one of the sins so much as a hole which isn’t really needed to be dwelling on. Or at least, it’s hard to take it seriously when someone is making a big to-do about this when there’s many more still upset over Trahearne leading instead of “The Big Hero, I”.

I said in that same other topic – I see the holes in the story as an opportunity to slot in something of my own and own the character instead of having the character made for me. These characters are mine that way, and not someone else’s vision I have to embrace – I don’t have to be some two-penny copy of Cloud Strife, or Commander Shephard, or whomever. I can freely be my own character, as I want to make them.

But that’s the story they’re telling, and the degree to which our character development is relevant to their plot. How much time have we spent on Biconic melodrama, from their romances and camaraderie to their loss and despair? Because according to the head writers, they are delivering a very different perspective for our PCs than the end of the Personal Story…but baby-feline if they can spare the slightest effort to actually put it in game.

See, that’s the only sin I would lay on their feet – they’re not very good at communicating the story they’re thinking of, and that’s the story they tend to use when presenting what they did write, not what we actually got.

See: “Who the heck is Mordremoth and how do I know his name again?”

We aren’t the focus of the Living Story thus far. We’re a strong and silent has-been trailing along for the Biconic Power Hour. And that’s not how it should be.

Worked for Adol Cristin.

Blockhead Magee.3092:

I’ve not been able to resolve why we haven’t gone straight to the pact now that we know the dragon is loose. Or, why the leaders of the nations, who know what we did to Zaitan, wouldn’t bend over backwards to hear what we have to say.

A: Pact is planning.
B: Because they are leading nations and have very busy days. Also it’s been two years since Zhaitan’s death, so waving that around isn’t as “OMG NEWS!”. Sure, it’s a big deal but it’s the big deal of a year or two ago, not today. The charr have enough threats directly around them to make them pause about attending a summit toward fighting something that is based on the other end of Tyria.

Also, to another earlier post. The Pact is not made up of the orders in full. They are made up of PARTS of the orders. Outside the pact they have their own command structure and missions. In season one we had help in parts from the orders, not the Pact(While the Pact was still around and doing their stuff in Orr).

Shrike, thank you for taking the time to put all that feedback together. I agree 100% with just about every point you made. This last release, I found myself unexpectedly reacting with revulsion when my character referred to the biconics as his group, and the Pale Tree agreed that we would go on to accomplish many great feats together. The single most enjoyable moment in the release was when Rytlock shot Rox down and referred to me as someone he can actually rely on, as he was the only character that felt even close to being on my level. The biconics are fine characters by themselves, but I just really find myself not wanting to associate with them like this. I don’t want to play the babysitter, and the “Scooby Doo Gang” effect really harms my ability to take the story as seriously as I’d like to.

The points about Job-o-Tron were good, but that’s where my opinion diverges a little. I think recurring characters that do have an ongoing relationship with the PC can add a lot to the story along with peripheral characters like him, but it needs to be the right characters. Not the biconics. There’s already a cast of interesting, competent, and far more appropriate characters to use. Logan, Rytlock, Caithe, Countess Anise, the individual Order members from the personal stories like the Master of Whispers and Almorra Soulkeeper, and a number of other characters featured in the personal stories that don’t come off as comic relief and are far more interesting and appropriate to foster ongoing interactions with the PC are available. With the unique dialogues they’ve shown themselves to be capable of, they could even allow us freedom to interact with them in ways appropriate to our characters and to allow us to actually shape those relationships ourselves rather than being told, “these guys are your best friends” whether we like it or not.

I’d really like to see the story evolve, but I think as long as we’re saddled so heavily with the biconics, it’s going to be held back.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I disagree. The intent is for the player characters to be the driving personality to make things happen, not the biconics who are merely characters to be moved into the proper locations for them to be useful. The purpose of them is as a resource to be used in the solo instance method of storytelling in case the player doesn’t always have friends to help out (which is actually a somewhat strong way of making sure there’s a coherent story rather than having it all open world).

They have the spotlight, but because they’re around us, rather than us being in the spotlight because we follow them. Therefore, they are not the main characters, we are.

You and I couldn’t be further apart on this. The spotlight is on them, but we’re just the audience. Sure, we get to bash stuff with a sword every now and then, but outside of the Personal Story pre-Claw Island, we’re just there to observe the real characters (the iconics, the biconics, Trahearne, Scarlet, etc.).

Ok that’s a lot of text, so I didn’t read too many of the posts but any regarding the problems mentioned by OP.

Problem 1: I’ll admit this is true, ANet could have done a slightly better job of justifying why we’re with them. I think the problem is simply that during S1 we didn’t really see or feel us and the biconics growing together forming a group. Maybe because our characters never (well basically never) talk so we’ve been mostly passively viewing events as they occurred during S1. We stumble upon Rox and Braham, we stumble across Majory and Kasmeer, we stumble across Taimi (although I will admit the Braham and Taimi interplay was well handled). We do a lot of things with them but given the format of S1 (not a lot of story instances I’m afraid) our characters don’t really interact with the biconics and thus for us as players there is no real reason why we’re with them (as OP said).

The fix for this is rather simple: give us a proper S1 in the new S2 format with story instances and lots of dialogue which shows and details how our characters came to join the biconics. This isn’t such a big issue with the current S2 content (since we start off already established as being a in a group) but we’re missing the prelude, the foundation of how we became part of that group. And again there are several reason why players might feel this way (how story was handled in S1, the mute PCs etc.) but it is fixable.

tl,dr: give us a S1 in the format of S2 that properly tells the story of how we joined the biconics.

Problem 2: Loved the little sketch lol. Yeah have to admit this is a problem and I’m not seeing how this can be fixed within the current or previous living story narrative. But the fix isn’t that hard. Something like mission packs, small chunks of content set during the period of LW S1 (that is year 1326) that shows us actively taking part in pack missions (maybe a hour or two’s worth of content, some achievements etc.) or even order missions.
These mission could be things such as: helping to clear out Orr of some remaining risen champions, helping to restock the warfronts against the other dragons etc. or order specific missions such gathering intelligence for the OoW or raiding some tomes for the Priory etc. This would allow ANet to demonstrate that although not fully active we were still part of the packs and orders and give ANet an opportunity to reintroduce some characters from the Personal Story.

tl,dr: Mission Packs for the Packs / Orders set during S1.

Problem 3: Yes at present we’re not really exploring the world or the people in it. The biconics could be changed (given more dialogue) to flesh out the world a bit but since the narrative is currently set in Dry Top (mostly) we’re only able to learn more about dry top.
Possibly the mission pack idea could work here as well, we might also have racial mission packs, so if you’re a Charr you get missions from your Tribune to go and go things, and again giving ANet an opportunity to introduce some new characters or old ones and explore the world a bit.

tl,dr: Don’t really have a good answer for this one except more mission packs for the racial factions

Problem 4 :I don’t actually think this is a problem. Not having major characters in the biconics isn’t really a problem for me. But I think what you’re getting at is not the importance of the biconics in the world of tyria but the importance of the biconics in the narrative (or so I’m guessing from the Luke Skywalker thing). We’ve seen some of that being done in episode 1 where we see Kasmeer and Majory use their unique gifts to help us process and move forward. It’s a small thing at the moment but I think more of this would help to turn them from random hangers-on to important characters in the narrative.

tl,dr: Give the biconics things to do that make them useful.

Problem 5: You gave a good suggestion yourself :P Although this is something that can still be turned around though, although the biconics are underdogs we don’t have to be. It’s just that (particularly in the current episode) we Kasmeer, Braham, Taimi and Rox to do the diplomatic thing. This could have been changed to instead have us accompany them to see the racial leaders and having them acknowledge our status and roles. The Pale Tree sort of did this, although it was a bit on the small scale to really carry across the feeling of our importance.

Problem 6: ANet simply needs to change how they portray the characters, although I don’t fully agree with the analog (although I do see the resemblance).

Another thing I want to point out in this thread…

The Biconics are nothing like Scooby Doo. And the parallels the OP draws are nitpicky at best, but the context just isn’t the same. You don’t see a human being strangled horrifically by a vine in the most heinous way possible in Scooby Doo, nor do you see entire cities get destroyed and the members of the Scooby Doo cast saving the city.

Also, while Job-o-Tron is amusing, he is definitely not the kind of character I would view as the epitome of storytelling, even in the context of Guild Wars.

Actually, the scooby-doo comparisions raise out of the plot clues being driven by anonymous letters by someone called “E”, which is exactly what Mystery Incorporated was about.

That still sounds a bit nitpicky. Again, Scooby Doo is a corny cartoon. Guild Wars 2 and the biconics are not corny nor are they a cartoon. They’ve been in many situations which involve death and destruction, something Scooby Doo rarely gets itself involved in. It’s like attributing some sort of importance to the fact some of Taimi’s quotes are specifically Jimmy Neutron inspired.

Sorann Peace.9056:

That still sounds a bit nitpicky. Again, Scooby Doo is a corny cartoon. Guild Wars 2 and the biconics are not corny nor are they a cartoon. They’ve been in many situations which involve death and destruction, something Scooby Doo rarely gets itself involved in. It’s like attributing some sort of importance to the fact some of Taimi’s quotes are specifically Jimmy Neutron inspired.

I’d argue GW2 has it’s campy/corny bits floating around in there, before the nitpicks start coming to tear down your point. The problem is it’s usually mixed in and around things which are supposed to be more serious.

Shriketalon.1937:

And so I conclude this simple piece of advice. Let the Biconics step out of the spotlight, and use a rotating cast to explore the fascinating facets of this world. Because at the end of the day, there is only one core protagonist for the Guild Wars Franchise…

…and her name is Tyria.

while i don’t agree with all your criticisms, i do LOVE your proposed solution….as it meshes with the concept of “living world” far more accurately than the current narrative w/ its static cast of characters (and more traditional fanstasy storytelling device).

viewing a singular event/catastrophe by how it effects a rotating cast of characters (how they react to it) is hardly a new storytelling method…….its done in lit/tv/film all the time. no reason an MMO can’t have that level of sophisticated storytelling.

adding you as player character/protagonist to the formula is slightly different, but opens up a ton of possiblities. if each episode had 2x or 3x as many missions (but maybe shorter in duration/scope) we could play different “mission paths” depending on how we react to these rotating characters (this could give purpose to the silly and underdeveloped agression/dignity/charm system) …….this also make playing the episode over again more enjoyable, as we can plat different paths. this probably changes the 2-week schedule to 3-week or 1 month, but i think it would be worth it.

I agree 100% with points 4 and 5. Scarlet was an incredibly destructive villain, carrying out highly effective terror attacks against multiple regions and eventually reducing a major city to rubble. Her activities and the results thereof should be the subject of intense interest by all three orders, not to mention the Seraph and the Lionguard. Yet somehow, nobody knows she spent time in this desert mining town until our ragtag band of misfits stumbles upon it, and we don’t report this to any actual experts?

And as cute as it is to watch Taimi fangirl around, figuring out the life’s work of an evil genius is way too important and dangerous to leave in the hands of a child. It’s a job for a whole team of experienced adults with a variety of skills – a delegation from the Pact, an organization the player has substantial influence with, would be ideal. And yet, the only time we see an actual adult with relevant skills come near to stepping in, he’s a jerk who’s only there to yell at Taimi and obstruct her work, because clearly a small child with a demonstrated lack of common sense can do a better job of protecting the entire continent-wide travel system than any adults who might have actual experience working on said travel system.

This whole storyline would have both made more sense and been more interesting, IMO, if it had focused around a team of Pact investigators digging into Scarlet’s background, rather than shoehorning in characters who don’t belong here.

So, if Braham, Rox, et al had been Pact investigators, this wouldn’t be as bad?

Sorann Peace.9056:

You’re right when you say that the Commander should be considered as much more influential in the story than it has been, but to say that we are “above the biconics” and that “we are friends with better people” for example, just… no._

Ah, perhaps I should clarify that point. It may have come across as way to condescending. I was aiming to make it a little bit humorously elitist, but perhaps it fell flat.

I did not mean to imply that characters who are something less than world-shaking figures are not worthy of notice, nor that the story should never include anyone less than paragon in stature. Far from it, a living world should depict individuals from all walks of life, and good characters are always welcome in all shapes, sizes, personalities, and perspectives.

What I was referring to is specifically the way the story values our relationship to the Biconics above all else in the current narrative. We can see this when we go talk to the Pale Tree. We’re trying to gather together an army to fight the forces of an Elder Dragon rising in the west. When we offer her greetings, she recognizes us as commander of the pact, and we turn around and say (paraphrasing):

“I used to be the commander. I lead a new group now.”

This statement is absurd. We’re not some aging general who’s been in retirement for decades. We killed an Elder Dragon not two years hence, and we are the single most qualified individual on the planet to command a fighting force in a campaign against the dragonspawn. Yet with the shadow of war looming on the horizon, the top line on our resume is that we’re with the five misfits standing in the corner.

I do not mean to imply that side characters or smaller scale heroes are not worth storytime. What I am asserting, however, is that when world-shattering events are in motion, the smaller scale stories take a backseat to the pivotal moments that alter the entire setting. We should be gearing up for full scale war alongside the massive army that is fully trained for exactly this situation, but instead the narrative is obsessing over the Biconic’s melodrama. And thus, my complaint.

Sorann Peace.9056:

The Biconics are nothing like Scooby Doo. And the parallels the OP draws are nitpicky at best, but the context just isn’t the same. You don’t see a human being strangled horrifically by a vine in the most heinous way possible in Scooby Doo, nor do you see entire cities get destroyed and the members of the Scooby Doo cast saving the city..

The Scooby thing is a minor joke and not remotely accurate, but allow me to use exactly the situation you describe to note why the joke is made.

That moment you described was an excellent example of the horrific savagery of the Elder Dragon. It wasn’t an ideal scene due to Belinda’s lack of prior characterization and other minor quibbles, but let’s ignore that. It was a dark and brutal moment in the campaign that drove home the ferocity of the enemy.

Immediately after that, the next mission led us to the nexus of the Leyline chamber, where Taimi’s recklessness endangered the lives of everyone in the area and subjected us to a potentially mind-shattering device…….whereupon we emerged from the chamber and all our companions laughed about how our hair was standing on end. That is a Hannah-Barbara joke if there ever was one, and that’s the tone the Biconics are setting. Dark despair and lighthearted shenanigans don’t mix.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I’d dissect this point but I think it’d be a waste of space since you’re already dead set on taking it this way. I’ll leave it at “I strongly disagree with your reasoning”.

Tobias, my friend, one cannot simply dismiss an argument like that. ’Tis not logical! While I respect your opinions and agree with you on many circumstances, you will have to do more to prove your side of the case.

Allow me to succinctly put it thus, with a comparison. Odysseus is the main character of the Odyssey (Captain Obvious statement of the day). He is the driving force behind the plot, he is the one who confronts and solves the dilemmas they face, and the narrative revolves around his adventure.

In the story of Jason and the Argonauts, Hercules joins the crew of the Argo on its journey. Despite being more renowned and powerful, his role in the story is secondary to the protagonist. Jason is the one determining their course of action, and Hercules is simply the brawn tagging along (until his friend and lover Hylas attracts the affections of some water nymphs who pull him into their spring to drown, causing Hercules to wander in anguish in search for the lad and the Argo to sail on. Standard Greek myth stuff).

So tell me, do you think we are playing the role of Odysseus in Season 2….or Hercules merely assisting Jory and the Biconauts?

Shriketalon.1937:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I’d dissect this point but I think it’d be a waste of space since you’re already dead set on taking it this way. I’ll leave it at “I strongly disagree with your reasoning”.

Tobias, my friend, one cannot simply dismiss an argument like that. ’Tis not logical! While I respect your opinions and agree with you on many circumstances, you will have to do more to prove your side of the case.

Okay, if you like . . . but I’ll need some time to review the original post and think on it rather than being sarcastic and snarku.

Allow me to succinctly put it thus, with a comparison. Odysseus is the main character of the Odyssey (Captain Obvious statement of the day). He is the driving force behind the plot, he is the one who confronts and solves the dilemmas they face, and the narrative revolves around his adventure.

In the story of Jason and the Argonauts, Hercules joins the crew of the Argo on its journey. Despite being more renowned and powerful, his role in the story is secondary to the protagonist. Jason is the one determining their course of action, and Hercules is simply the brawn tagging along (until his friend and lover Hylas attracts the affections of some water nymphs who pull him into their spring to drown, causing Hercules to wander in anguish in search for the lad and the Argo to sail on. Standard Greek myth stuff).

So tell me, do you think we are playing the role of Odysseus in Season 2….or Hercules merely assisting Jory and the Biconauts?

I’m only passingly familiar with the two stories you quoted . . . yeah, I had to read other stuff through High School literature, like “Great Expectations” and “Antigone”.

(Who, by the by, may have had the play named after her but there was a considerable amount of story which only involved reactions to her choices rather than actually being about her.)

On the other hand, let me pull out other “english literature classics” since you did also. But to be nicer, I’ll sum it up in one sentence for the TLDR crowd:

I think we’re D’artagnan to the Three Musketeers.

Undoubtedly skilled, and the one who gets most of the story done, but most of the “cool heroics” are handled by the Aramis, Athos, and Porthos for most of the book. While D’artagnan is the main character, and the story is driven by his actions . . . it’s soul is formed by his companions and the story could not exist without them. It’s the unity of their company which is the heart of the book, not the adventure itself. In the heart of it, I’m hard-pressed to find one instance in which D’artagnan truly did something amazing and worthy of being the central character. But without him being in the story, nothing would have actually happened and the Three Musketeers would not have had the adventure they did.

It seems this is what is being aimed for, because there is a grain of truth in how the biconics lack qualities . . . however, those problems are covered up because they work together, and because we happen to be there to keep things from going wrong. Are we the ones doing everything? No, but without us nothing would succeed.

. . . and, notably, Dumas’ writing style also suits. There’s a lot which happens “off-screen” in the two works of his I read (the other being The Count of Monte Cristo naturally), and the latter actually requires most of the character work to happen barely on-screen and only very specific parts happen on the page.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

So, if Braham, Rox, et al had been Pact investigators, this wouldn’t be as bad?

If Pact investigators had been present instead of, or in addition to, the Biconic gang, this wouldn’t be as bad. I actually do like Braham and Rox (though I could do with a bit less Kas/Jory relationship chatter and I’m increasingly wishing for Taimi to accidentally blow herself up) it’s just that this situation is far above their pay grade.

I feel like the actual authorities should be something like SHIELD in the current crop of Marvel movies – when weird and dangerous things happen, they generally show up to try to take charge of the situation and prevent unnecessary death and destruction. They don’t necessarily solve the actual problem, and may be actively obstructing the heroes of the movie, but they’re trying to be responsible. There is basically no scenario in which Agent Coulson walks into a dead supervillain’s lab, finds an unsupervised child messing around with the equipment and trying to make a fundamental change to some nationwide network, and decides to let the child finish the job. He WILL be stopping her and calling in a team of experienced scientists to deal with the situation, because anything else would be totally irresponsible.

So I guess the whole Taimi thing is really the core of my personal objection to the current story’s focus on the Biconics. She’s a preteen with no common sense and right now she’s being given full, unsupervised access to not only the notes and machinery of a crazy mass-murdering villain, but also the machine that made that villain a crazy mass-murderer in the first place. And the story presents this as a good thing!

Baolun.8316:

So I guess the whole Taimi thing is really the core of my personal objection to the current story’s focus on the Biconics. She’s a preteen with no common sense and right now she’s being given full, unsupervised access to not only the notes and machinery of a crazy mass-murdering villain, but also the machine that made that villain a crazy mass-murderer in the first place. And the story presents this as a good thing!

Hey, they present child abandonement as something positive without giving you any choice, why not child endangerment!

You know what else is positively presented? Scientific experimentation with the safeties off.

. . . I’m still not doing it.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

So, if Braham, Rox, et al had been Pact investigators, this wouldn’t be as bad?

It wouldn’t have been.

People talk about how Destiny’s Edge were nobodies or how this is a story about a group forming to take on dragons similar to how the Pact formed, the problem with doing this story now is that it was done before.

There is context for Destiny’s Edge forming . At the beginning of the book Tyria was losing. The Elder Dragons were gaining more ground, the races were suffering big defeats and the world was divided. Desinty’s Edge formed as a symbolic group that showed the world that when the five major races work together, they became more than the sum of their parts. The group disbanded and we had to get the band back together in the Story Mode dungeons (which was somewhat poorly received).

Now Tyria had the five iconic heroes that showed what working together could accomplish, but we needed to take another step. It was time for the armies to work together, five heroes is not enough to take down an Elder Dragon. That’s why we formed the Pact. We weren’t part of a group that could get the job done, a group didn’t exist so the story based around filling those roles makes a lot of sense.

Fast forward to two years later and Tyria is being threatened by an Elder Dragon. Not only do we have the iconic dragon fighting heroes, but we have the Elder Dragon army that is supposed to take on these challenges. The world has the Pact and so a story which has the PC (as Pact members) running around without the Pact is pretty stupid.

When Destiny’s Edge individually worked with us, it was on a racial level that related to their individual interests. They were also no Destiny’s Edge any more, they disbanded. When we work with the biconics, we are not on bad terms with Destiny’s Edge or the Pact or the Orders. We have good relationships and most importantly, a proven track record of accomplishing amazing things with the Pact. It doesn’t make sense to discard that or prioritise fledgling adventurers when you are already a senior member of Tyria best shot for taking on dragons.

Discarding the PC motivation issues (why would I work with Braham over actual dragon experts with the resources of the three Orders combined?) we have serious story flaws when the Pact is obviously still important but the story is ignoring them because we need to see Kasmeer and Marjory talk about who needs protecting more than the other. The confirmation of a sixth Elder Dragon, the reveal of Mordremoth’s name – this happened off screen because the Pact is not the medium this story is being told for.

If GW2 keeps going like this, we are going to end up like Supernatural Season 10 where everything that every happens happens around the two brothers, one of them is always the special chosen one and the lore ends up all warped and wonky because too many compromises in world building are made to pander to the role the main cast play in the story – but it’s a TV show about two brothers, GW2 is an MMO and it’s trying to sell us an entire world, but it’s doing it through five characters. Tyria is stronger when the most appropriate characters are used, not when content panders to the chosen five.

How many special powers is Kasmeer going to get before it gets too ridiculous? How many areas of expertise is Taimi going to conveniently be a genius about (despite being a child) or challenges that seem to stump the entirety of Tyria but in the same release she spots it, she solves it? How does Rox’s autonomy, agency and importance accurately portray someone who was the lowest rank in her society and discarder the orders given to her?

Very good read. To see a thread like this with so many thought out points and opinions gives me hope that some day… Anet will see topics like this and improve their storytelling. Like so many have brought out, Tyria is a massive world with many interesting characters. To limit the majority of our characters interaction to the five in our group is a disservice to the story of Guild Wars.