Guild Wars 2

Prior to Scarlet’s reveal and subsequent posts criticizing her character, I had never heard the term Villain Sue being used. I’ll admit that every time I see this term I cringe because it just sounds so wrong. Of course, that is my personal bias and in no way am I attacking those who like to use it for some odd reason. I did a little research and what I found was quite interesting. To those of you wondering what a Villain Sue is I will explain below.

When I saw the first post about Scarlet being a Villain Sue the first thought that came to my mind was that Scarlet will take everyone to court or something. I think a lot of people were also as confused as me but didn’t want to speak up.

To understand what is meant by Villain Sue, you will first need to know what a Mary Sue is. Mary Sue was a female character from a Star Trek fanfic from back in the 70s. This is a snipped from Wikipedia. The link is below.

Mary Sue stories—the adventures of the youngest and smartest ever person to graduate from the academy and ever get a commission at such a tender age. Usually characterized by unprecedented skill in everything from art to zoology, including karate and arm-wrestling. This character can also be found burrowing her way into the good graces/heart/mind of one of the Big Three [Kirk, Spock, and McCoy], if not all three at once. She saves the day by her wit and ability, and, if we are lucky, has the good grace to die at the end, being grieved by the entire ship.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue

The ‘Mary Sue’ trope is often applied to female characters more so than male characters due to the origin of this trope. I’m not going to say that there is necessarily sexism involved. I did want to point out that Trahearne could qualify as a Mary Sue and yet not once did anyone claim that he is a Mary Sue probably because he is male.

Villain Sue is an extension of this except that is applied to the antagonist of the story rather than the protagonist. The Villain Sue is the author’s wish of being a villain being fulfilled. You know the saying about how ’it’s good to be bad’.

After learning about what it means I’m still not a fan of using it. It just sounds really awkward. I obviously can’t stop others from using it but my wish fulfillment would involve ArenaNet turning “Villain Sue” into the word ‘kitten’.

You mightvwant to read the wiki article again. Trahearne was never portrayed as having exceptional skill in everything. In fact we are exposed to more of his flaws than his strengths.

Heinel.6548:

You mightvwant to read the wiki article again. Trahearne was never portrayed as having exceptional skill in everything. In fact we are exposed to more of his flaws than his strengths.

Actually Trahearne might qualify as a Marty Stu, the flaws we see are those of self-doubt and uncertainty, which are quickly overcome as he easily falls into the role of conquering commander. Trahearne is still good at everything, from combat (of which he had no real training, he goes from being a researcher to hacking down legions of Risen with a greatsword of pure tree magic) to knowing exactly where, when and how to attack Zhaitan. He even makes a mean cobb salad.

So while Trahearne doesn’t start out as a Marty Stu, he quickly develops into one. With Scarlet, we don’t see the development, we just get the backstory, and all her qualities point absolutely to someone at ANet’s fanfic author avatar.

What Kaleban said. This Mary Sue character from A Trekkie’s Tale is the original Mary Sue in which the trope was derived. It is also one of the most, if not the most, exaggerated of all Mary Sues. A lot of the times it doesn’t take much for someone that grew up during the 70s or even 80s to label a character as such. A character that just so happens to be smarter than everyone might be considered a Mary Sue.

One could argue that Scarlet is the perfect example of the most exaggerated version of this trope if she were one of the good girls. She isn’t so people instead have applied the extended version to her. I’m not going to write it again because it just sounds silly.

This is not criticism of Scarlet herself. I do think it’s worth pointing out that this character is an extension of the author him/herself. Scarlet is the ideal that the author wants to be. This is of course in stark contrast to the notion that Scarlet is a character created out of convenience to tie the living story together. It’s honestly not an issue for me but I thought I would provide some clarification on this.

This is making less sense by the word. A character that is smarter than everyone is a genius, not a Mary Sue. Otherwise, every major Asuran character would be a Mary Sue.

While most Mary Sues are portrayed as intelligent, that is because high intelligence is a desirable trait. Mary Sues are characterized as someone who is idealized to the point of being unrealistic. It takes more than just generic “smarts” for that.

Heinel.6548:

This is making less sense by the word. A character that is smarter than everyone is a genius, not a Mary Sue. Otherwise, every major Asuran character would be a Mary Sue.

While most Mary Sues are portrayed as intelligent, that is because high intelligence is a desirable trait. Mary Sues are characterized as someone who is idealized to the point of being unrealistic. It takes more than just generic “smarts” for that.

Ok, look into Scarlet’s backstory. She’s smarter than every Asuran genius. She’s better at every race’s “hat” than the entire race itself. She has perfect tactical and strategic awareness. Even the efforts of the players seemingly work into her grand and vast designs.

While the term Mary Sue may originally have meant someone who is perfect AND the supporting cast idealized her for it (see also: The Wesley) in common vernacular it has come to mean any extremely overpowered character that is better than everyone else at everything.

If you’re going to keep arguing the opposite, at least know the character you’re arguing over first.

I always assumed a Mary Sue character to be the writer’s favorite character, whom despite the writer’s best efforts, no one can stand. It’s kind of like watching someone’s favorite DnD character on an adventure, and not caring at all about any of his/her conflicts or tribulations, because the character will always end up hogging the spot light in the end.

A character has to earn the love of it’s audience, and a Mary Sue character is basically a character who hasn’t earned the love at all, yet the writer is crazy about him/her. This creates a divide between the writer and the readers, who start to hate the character more and more.

Logan Thackeray is a perfect example of a Mary Sue character. No one likes him, yet he is constantly in the spot light, and other side characters look up to him for some reason, which he never earns in the story. Then he sacrifices himself in a forced way at the end, and then survives again, thus making the entire sacrifice pointless. He’s always perfect, and never makes any mistakes (except those in his off screen shallow background). Anything that could give his character any depth, is avoided in the writer’s attempt to make the character perfect, and thus he is ultimately not a convincing character. Those are the hallmarks of any Mary Sue character.

Scarlet can be considered a Villain Sue, in regards to her shallow background (perfect student at everything), and the writer’s desire to force her into every story. She is the pet favorite villain that refuses to die, much to the frustration of the audience. You see, there are recurring villains that players like to see again and again, and there are those who are simply obnoxious.

I was going to bring up Logan on the account of his false sacrifice. That part was a bit silly. I don’t think he actually gets that much attention and his flaws make him the most believable of Destiny’s Edge. I don’t believe that the audience’s preferences for a particular character determines whether this character is or isn’t a Mary Sue. You might hate Cersei Lannister but that doesn’t mean that Martin will kill her or take her out of the spotlight to satisfy your desires. Plus you have different people with different preferences. No, what determines who is a Mary Sue is determined by the merits of the character alone.

ArenaNet may reveal in the future that Scarlet is actually a deliberate attempt at this trope and there may be some sort of twist. It’s not uncommon for game developers to introduce self aware concepts or tropes to illustrate how silly they are. If you played Rytlock’s Critter Rampage you’ll notice how his only attack is this stupid kick that is frustratingly difficult to hit enemies with. The designer was taking a poke at old school game design.

As my current signature shows, there are good ways to make a villain the audience genuinely hates and bad ways. The good way is when the audience hates the villain because the things they’ve done are so believably horrible that you that the audience enjoys their time on-screen (it’s like a train wreck, you can’t look away…) but eagerly awaits their comeuppance. The bad way is, well, when the audience just wants the character to stay out of the spotlight.

On the topic of VillainSue, I’d point here for the more specific explanation (beware, TVTropes will eat your free time and ruin your life). Specifically, Scarlet is the type that was intended to be a Magnificent kitten and grew into a God-Mode Sue. Especially the part about forcing the heroes into holding the Idiot Ball.

What really crossed the line for me, though, was her background story. While not mentioned explicitly in either the Wikipedia or TVTropes articles, one of the signs of a Sue is when the author couldn’t decide which of a range of options is cooler and so makes the character a cross-bred blender of all of them, so you get things like a half-fey-half-dragon-half-unicorn-half-werewolf vampire where only one or at most two of those is required for the story and, in fact, a character with a more focused identity would be stronger.

In Scarlet’s case, while not explicitly cross-bred, what she does can probably be explained simply by being a gifted engineer who’s studied with Synergetics and/or the Inquest. Having her be someone who’s studied with the best norn metallurgist, an expert charr engineer, all three reputable asura colleges and the Inquest basically feels like the writers just couldn’t decide what school of engineering thought she came from and just decided to make her come from ALL OF THEM!!!

Kaleban.9834:

Heinel.6548:

This is making less sense by the word. A character that is smarter than everyone is a genius, not a Mary Sue. Otherwise, every major Asuran character would be a Mary Sue.

While most Mary Sues are portrayed as intelligent, that is because high intelligence is a desirable trait. Mary Sues are characterized as someone who is idealized to the point of being unrealistic. It takes more than just generic “smarts” for that.

Ok, look into Scarlet’s backstory. She’s smarter than every Asuran genius. She’s better at every race’s “hat” than the entire race itself. She has perfect tactical and strategic awareness. Even the efforts of the players seemingly work into her grand and vast designs.

While the term Mary Sue may originally have meant someone who is perfect AND the supporting cast idealized her for it (see also: The Wesley) in common vernacular it has come to mean any extremely overpowered character that is better than everyone else at everything.

If you’re going to keep arguing the opposite, at least know the character you’re arguing over first.

I never said Scarlet wasn’t a Mary Sue. I said Trahearne wasn’t. You, however, flip flopped between characters.

draxynnic.3719:

As my current signature shows, there are good ways to make a villain the audience genuinely hates and bad ways. The good way is when the audience hates the villain because the things they’ve done are so believably horrible that you that the audience enjoys their time on-screen (it’s like a train wreck, you can’t look away…) but eagerly awaits their comeuppance. The bad way is, well, when the audience just wants the character to stay out of the spotlight.

On the topic of VillainSue, I’d point here for the more specific explanation (beware, TVTropes will eat your free time and ruin your life). Specifically, Scarlet is the type that was intended to be a Magnificent kitten and grew into a God-Mode Sue. Especially the part about forcing the heroes into holding the Idiot Ball.

I would disagree with the god mode Sue bit. The fact that Scarlet isn’t presented as this overwhelming force that cannot be overcome by players is proof enough of that. A much better example of god mode Sues would be Dr. Manhatten in The Watchmen. He’s this super being who is seemingly immortal/eternal and can break all matter apart into their basic building blocks. All this is fine in the DC Universe, which is filled with overpowered beings. The problem is that in Watchmen, all of the other heroes are just human with no powers whatsoever.

Of course, it all comes to relativity. Is Scarlet so overwhelmingly powerful that it feels like she’s a god relative to everyone else? I would argue that the player character is closer to this trope. Your character takes on enemies that are supposedly too tough for everyone else to handle. You take down an elder dragon when no one else could in the past 150 years since they’ve awoken. You’re always the hero that manages to save the day with failed events not withstanding.

I have to mention that TV tropes is also not as balanced as Wikipedia. It’s almost impossible to create a character that doesn’t somehow fall under a Sue category of some sort. It’s only because, as TV tropes admits, that Mary Sue’s original meaning is lost and there are so many different interpretations. You’re all free to criticize Scarlet and I will criticize the trope.

Heinel.6548:

I never said Scarlet wasn’t a Mary Sue. I said Trahearne wasn’t. You, however, flip flopped between characters.

Because I can multitask. And I argued that Trahearne COULD be considered one, but not from backstory as is Scarlet, but via development during the personal story.

He’s a bookish nerd handed a magic sword and told to go cleanse Orr, and all of his personality flaws such as uncertainty and self-doubt evaporate and he succeeds quite handily, with some small help from the player. Let us not forget that one of the accoutrements of the Marty Stu is the:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CoolSword

In fact, Trahearne may just be epitomized by the Geeky Stu archetype.

Kaleban.9834:

Heinel.6548:

This is making less sense by the word. A character that is smarter than everyone is a genius, not a Mary Sue. Otherwise, every major Asuran character would be a Mary Sue.

While most Mary Sues are portrayed as intelligent, that is because high intelligence is a desirable trait. Mary Sues are characterized as someone who is idealized to the point of being unrealistic. It takes more than just generic “smarts” for that.

Ok, look into Scarlet’s backstory. She’s smarter than every Asuran genius. She’s better at every race’s “hat” than the entire race itself. She has perfect tactical and strategic awareness. Even the efforts of the players seemingly work into her grand and vast designs.

While the term Mary Sue may originally have meant someone who is perfect AND the supporting cast idealized her for it (see also: The Wesley) in common vernacular it has come to mean any extremely overpowered character that is better than everyone else at everything.

If you’re going to keep arguing the opposite, at least know the character you’re arguing over first.

This, the fact that everyone loves her.

One of the most mind blowing thing about Scarlet is that while she was in Asuran college, no one hated her.

As you guys can see in Asuran culture, it is very common for Asurans to compete against each other to see who has higher intelligence. In fact this is promoted and socially accepted.

If Scarlet is as smart as the story say she is, and combined with her “show off” personality", she will be the most hated person in the whole Asuran sociality. Everyone single self-respecting Asura in her classes will be challenging her left right center. She will have to battle against everyone across all 3 colleges.

And that’s the Asurans with high moral. Evil Asurans will go even further and bully her in every chance they get. They will sabotage her projects. They will burn down her apartment to delay her work. They will use fireworks outside of her room every night to disrupt her sleep. etc

It is literally impossible for someone as smart and as show-off as Scarlet to be liked in Asuran sociality. She will be hated by everyone, if we follow the Asuran lore.

Another GW2 lore slain by Scarlet. The “Lore Slayer” continues her work. :P

Kaleban.9834:

Heinel.6548:

I never said Scarlet wasn’t a Mary Sue. I said Trahearne wasn’t. You, however, flip flopped between characters.

Because I can multitask. And I argued that Trahearne COULD be considered one, but not from backstory as is Scarlet, but via development during the personal story.

He’s a bookish nerd handed a magic sword and told to go cleanse Orr, and all of his personality flaws such as uncertainty and self-doubt evaporate and he succeeds quite handily, with some small help from the player. Let us not forget that one of the accoutrements of the Marty Stu is the:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CoolSword

In fact, Trahearne may just be epitomized by the Geeky Stu archetype.

You are still undermining your own claims. Trahearne couldn’t use the Caladbolg for battle any better than the player characters can, and he dies to trash mobs. Most of his abilities are in line with his scholarly/necromancy/sylvari origin. Aside from a thoroughly mechanical, uninspiring rally speech, his only accomplishment in leadership is appointing the player character as commander. He also didn’t die in the end, and hence not finishing the cycle as per the Mary Sue archetype.

I’m not saying Trahearne’s characterization is not without its own problems, but claiming things he is not is really not helping things here.

CHIPS.6018:

This, the fact that everyone loves her.

One of the most mind blowing thing about Scarlet is that while she was in Asuran college, no one hated her.

As you guys can see in Asuran culture, it is very common for Asurans to compete against each other to see who has higher intelligence. In fact this is promoted and socially accepted.

If Scarlet is as smart as the story say she is, and combined with her “show off” personality", she will be the most hated person in the whole Asuran sociality. Everyone single self-respecting Asura in her classes will be challenging her left right center. She will have to battle against everyone across all 3 colleges.

And that’s the Asurans with high moral. Evil Asurans will go even further and bully her in every chance they get. They will sabotage her projects. They will burn down her apartment to delay her work. They will use fireworks outside of her room every night to disrupt her sleep. etc

It is literally impossible for someone as smart and as show-off as Scarlet to be liked in Asuran sociality. She will be hated by everyone, if we follow the Asuran lore.

Another GW2 lore slain by Scarlet. The “Lore Slayer” continues her work. :P

And the other side of “everyone loves her” is her apparent ability to get every evil faction to work under her, with the krait seeming to be the next addition. Admittedly, their motivation seems to be fear rather than love, but it’s typical for villains to take the attitude that it’s better to be feared than loved, so that’s the equivalent, especially when that fear never results in someone from one of the evil factions (evil is not supposed to be monolithic…) looking to take her down a peg or two rather than rolling over and working for her.

It also raises the question of how she established enough of a power base to be feared in the first place. She claims that the Aetherblades serve her because “they like living”, but before she twisted the watchknights to create the Twisted, without the Aetherblades just how was she powerful enough to induce that level of fear in the first place?

draxynnic.3719:

It also raises the question of how she established enough of a power base to be feared in the first place. She claims that the Aetherblades serve her because “they like living”, but before she twisted the watchknights to create the Twisted, without the Aetherblades just how was she powerful enough to induce that level of fear in the first place?

The mystery of it all at least makes her interesting. Her connection with the steam creatures is the least understood. Is she their creator or does she just have the power to control them somehow?

Yes and no. There are some questions that really should be answered: What arguments did she use to get the dredge and Flame Legion together? Why did the Aetherblades fear her, before she established her Twisted army? For the moment, the only answer we’ve got is “because she’s Scarlet”.

The answer to the Aetherblade question could be something like “because she has an army of steam creatures”. If it’s that, then it’s reasonable to leave just how she got them a mystery for now.

draxynnic.3719:

Yes and no. There are some questions that really should be answered: What arguments did she use to get the dredge and Flame Legion together? Why did the Aetherblades fear her, before she established her Twisted army? For the moment, the only answer we’ve got is “because she’s Scarlet”.

The answer to the Aetherblade question could be something like “because she has an army of steam creatures”. If it’s that, then it’s reasonable to leave just how she got them a mystery for now.

There are unfortunately two forces at work here that serve to undermine Scarlet as a character. The ‘What Scarlet Saw’ short story was overly generous in gifting Scarlet with positive attributes while at the same time failing to explain the fundamental questions of ‘how did she do it?’ In a way it might have been better to leave everything a mystery. Scarlet before her big reveal in Clockwork Madness seemed like a really cool character.

zeromius.1604:

I did want to point out that Trahearne could qualify as a Mary Sue and yet not once did anyone claim that he is a Mary Sue probably because he is male.

You are straight-up inarguably wrong and should admit that.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=trahearne+mary+sue

He has been called a Mary Sue countless times. Your ignorance here does you no favours. Marty Stu is an alternative term, and he was called that plenty too.

Further, you are not explaining “Villain Sue” here, merely proving you don’t understand it well enough to explain it. That’s unhelpful.

Scarlet, as of right now, is a perfect example of Villain Sue. You could not ask for a better one. She’s TEXTBOOK, right down to graduating from all the universities of the cleverest species on the planet (not just one of them like they do – she has to be better, more special, more unique), being very young (like all Sylvari), and being completely fearless and not reliant on anyone else for anything, as well as there being no clear explanation for why people do what she says beyond “I’m so awesome!”.

This could change in future. I hope that it does. As of right now, though, it is the case.

I have a question that could turn this entire thing upside-down…did they ever mention or explain who was the first born among the firstborn Sylvari? If it’s Scarlet, she could very well be the physical embodiment of the Pale Tree’s curiosity and learning, taken root (pun intended). Which could explain more than a few of her screwy actions and how she got this far.

Heinel.6548:

This is making less sense by the word. A character that is smarter than everyone is a genius, not a Mary Sue. Otherwise, every major Asuran character would be a Mary Sue.

While most Mary Sues are portrayed as intelligent, that is because high intelligence is a desirable trait. Mary Sues are characterized as someone who is idealized to the point of being unrealistic. It takes more than just generic “smarts” for that.

This is merely for people who have a need to classify everything. Instead of taking things at face value, everything has to be drawn back to a person or persons who originally had an idea like that. This eventually leads people to find out that 90% of all stories are not actually original ideas but borrowed ideas from others that change slightly. Be it consciously or subconsciously, everything everyone ever does in the history of ever, was already done before.

RyuDragnier.9476:

I have a question that could turn this entire thing upside-down…did they ever mention or explain who was the first born among the firstborn Sylvari? If it’s Scarlet, she could very well be the physical embodiment of the Pale Tree’s curiosity and learning, taken root (pun intended). Which could explain more than a few of her screwy actions and how she got this far.

I think somewhere along the line they mention Scarlet being Secondborn? Perhaps I could be imagining that, though, since Mender Serimon was there when she awoke (according to her story, anyways).

Also, if she were Firstborn I assume they’d make a significant point out of it, since three of the twelve Firstborn have yet to be revealed.

RyuDragnier.9476:

I have a question that could turn this entire thing upside-down…did they ever mention or explain who was the first born among the firstborn Sylvari? If it’s Scarlet, she could very well be the physical embodiment of the Pale Tree’s curiosity and learning, taken root (pun intended). Which could explain more than a few of her screwy actions and how she got this far.

Don’t give Anet such ideas. The only reason why Scarlet isn’t firstborn, is fact, that the writer didn’t come up with it yet. And I don’t want to waste 1 of 3 unrevealed firstborns on such pathetic character.