Guild Wars 2

heya.

i really like the idea of living story, and what i have seen during the lost shores, it is a really good way to expand tyria and show off the changes in the world (the lost shores island rise from the deep sea because zhaitan is defeated, for example…), and during my explorations i often reached locations where clearly is a blocked path to another area (crystal desert, northern shiverpeaks, dominion of winds and some areas in the maguuma areas…).

This Flame and Frost living story was a disappointment. Not only there is almost no link to Tyrias overall Story (Dragons), but a mysterious alliance between dredge and flame legion (why?) and a not-so-exciting plot (uh oh there are new enemies, they are all over the place, they kidnap innocent npcs to test weapons? And again Rox and Braham are getting all the attention while players are more or less nameless supporters).
Things i wanted to see / know: what does the molten alliance want? What are the greater goals? Do they want to create a new army to help one of the dragons devour the world? Why do they need villagers to test their weapons? (they could have used animals, or mechanical dummies?) We know the dredge hold a greater area in the shiverpeaks, do they have a leader there commanding such things? Why didnt we kill him, but those two transformers instead?
Does this end now or will that story arch continue in furhter living story arcs? Some of the refugees are going to southsun cove, does this mean they may build structures there, and add content to that island (hearts, skillpoints? Events?). Are they now just gone as we raid the molten facility?

see, i think you can do this better. A lot better. I remember the “living story” back in GW1, where you had to help the queen, that “viral marketing campain” for GW2 was awesome, including new challenges, bosses and missions that changed some areas forever, at least filled the areas with new, stronger enemies.

ideas for further living stories:
- make areas accessible, give us a new zone: let us together with the vigil, order and priory conquer a zone, hold front lines and build up structures. bring up new npcs who will stay there, give us tasks, events and skillpoints, jumping puzzles and things to explore.
- interesting plots full of traitors, dragons corruption, death and glory. Make players risk something, loose something and end as heroes again, if you wish.
- no temporary content please. the molten facility for example could have a temporary story mode, but then an explorable mode with new enemies that stays.
- add also armor and not only weapons if you add new content (and please not only ugly gloves…)

i really see the potentials of the living story idea. now just do it better.

So, you are saying it does not have any link to the overall story, and yet in the same sentence you point out that we don’t know the cause for the alliance.
Why assume those two are not connected?
How do we know that the alliance don’t have anything to do with the dragons?

Even if there is a link, it’s not overtly-displayed throughout the content, so it’d just feel like something arbitrarily thrown on to justify the existence of F&F. It currently just feels like a random, isolated chunk of content with poor build-up and an underwhelming execution. Had it been like, 1/1Ø of a content-patch that (overall) flowed well together, this would be alright, but as it stands it just feels like boring filler.

Dark Saviour.9410:

Even if there is a link, it’s not overtly-displayed throughout the content, so it’d just feel like something arbitrarily thrown on to justify the existence of F&F. It currently just feels like a random, isolated chunk of content with poor build-up and an underwhelming execution. Had it been like, 1/1Ø of a content-patch that (overall) flowed well together, this would be alright, but as it stands it just feels like boring filler.

So something must be “in your face” clear in order for it to be any good?
I for one prefer the fact that we still don’t really know why they are working together, nor who they are working for/with.

You need to maintain the tone and atmosphere of the main story so it doesn’t feel like the game is suddenly screaming, “IN OTHER NEWS!!!” That’s the main issue I have here is that it seems like a lot of times, it seems entirely possible to forget about the existence of the dragons, but from how they were described prior to the game’s launch, that should never happen. If you’re going to write a side-story that doesn’t focus directly on them (at least for the moment), then you should make sure to carry the hopeless and bleak tone into it and make sure to drive home that this is just yet another issue that we’re having to deal with on top of the much more severe issue that should never leave our minds.

Trying to tie it in after-the-fact doesn’t change the fact that this story felt too disconnected to the state the world SHOULD be in at the moment.

Though then again, the concept of the dragons was never handled all that well in-game, so I don’t know why I would expect anything different here.

Dark Saviour.9410:

Even if there is a link, it’s not overtly-displayed throughout the content,[..] as it stands it just feels like boring filler.

I think some of the episodes in the GW1 story must have felt like “boring filler”, too, until the grand revelation near the end that it was all interconnected.

That’s a bit different, as each campaign was (originally) a self-contained story (though I will say that Factions’ writing was bad enough that it still managed to feel like boring filler somehow).

This would be more akin to hopping a boat to Cantha and just forgetting about the Mursaat entirely while we go to kill Shiro. Completely moving on would be fine if we’d already killed all the dragons and cleared that whole mess up, but we haven’t. They’re still out there, and (supposedly) are a world-level threat.

Dark Saviour.9410:

That’s a bit different, as each campaign was (originally) a self-contained story (though I will say that Factions’ writing was bad enough that it still managed to feel like boring filler somehow).

This would be more akin to hopping a boat to Cantha and just forgetting about the Mursaat entirely while we go to kill Shiro. Completely moving on would be fine if we’d already killed all the dragons and cleared that whole mess up, but we haven’t. They’re still out there, and (supposedly) are a world-level threat.

And yet there were parts of said campaigns that did seem like “useless fillers” until you actually played through all of it, since quite a few of them made no sense whatsoever until you knew everything.

Dark Saviour.9410:

That’s a bit different, as each campaign was (originally) a self-contained story (though I will say that Factions’ writing was bad enough that it still managed to feel like boring filler somehow).

This would be more akin to hopping a boat to Cantha and just forgetting about the Mursaat entirely while we go to kill Shiro. Completely moving on would be fine if we’d already killed all the dragons and cleared that whole mess up, but we haven’t. They’re still out there, and (supposedly) are a world-level threat.

Hee…amusingly, that is kinda what I did—I was hopping back and forth between the three storylines (and EotN) as my interest took me, but beating down Shiro was the only one I finished to the end.

I personally would rather NOT have all the storylines magically link back to the Elder Dragons somehow. The world (both Tyria and real) is filled with people with self interests, ones that won’t let the Elder Dragon stop them from getting their way. Why kill off their storylines just because it wouldn’t fit into the “Elder Dragons’ Overall Story Arc”?

One of the things that bugged me most about gw1’s storyline was Abaddon. I loved Khilbron and Shiro when I was playing though the game, with their motives and reasons for falling into madness, up until I played Nightfall. All their motives and reasoning that I liked about them? It all got replaced with “Abaddon made me do it!”. Even the Charr got that excuse with it comes to the Searing.

One thing I don’t hope that gw2 does, is give the same excuse to the bad guys.

“Well I know I’m bad, but the Elder Dragon made me do it!”

Myramar.8657:

And again Rox and Braham are getting all the attention while players are more or less nameless supporters).

What about a system of Fame Points or something like that? So that the characters (not players!) that helped (fighted?) the most (best?) in some event or dungeon or Living Story arc win a lot of those Fame Points, and every month or so, the names of the characters with more Fame Points in the server (or zone, or city at least!) will be heard in gossip, or will be the stars of the next arc?

I prefer to follow some character played by a living person, given that he/she was the hero of the last great battle, that an imposed “Rox”.

F&F story arc is ending but the mystery behind the alliance is yet to be revelead and will continue being expanded upon into the next patches. Lost shores is totally plot and lore devoid. Adding new areas it’s not a good idea when Southsun Cove was released completely devoid of events/vistas/pois. To this day, it’s still quite empty.

hey there.

i would say ther eis a difference between “it is not explained at all” and “it is an open ending/left unrevaled”.
If i read a book, for example, and in the last 40 pages, new characters are brought in as important ones related to the known, with no explanation, i am confused and i may think the book isn’t good. Same when there are some logic-failures (for example when a character is introduced to you as a new one but you had already contact to him in early missions) or simply unexplained parts, or when the whole thing feels “layered” (for example when characters that were important at the beginning do not re-appear later on).
See, the GW2 personal storyline has made those mistakes. If you play a sylvari, you may have met Trahearne early on, but when you meet him in Lions Arch, he does not remember you. Important characters, such as friends, relatives or important people you meet during the storyline do just disappear when a new chapter starts.

but then, the GW2 world storyline is sometimes absolutely brilliant. For example the mysterious Orr. When you wander around the ruins of Orr, you may get a really good impression of how this area may have looked like back int he good old times when the gods wandered around the mere mortals, before they left. The temples and events around there are related to this, and also to the Dragon threat, there is not that much lore needed to explain this, all the little things sum up to a greater impression, and this is really nice.

for that flame and frost living story arc, i have some very specific ideas or points of criticism:

1. introduction of the new important characters, Rox and Braham: They just appeared out of nowhere, but there was enough time to introduce them better. Fine, Eir has a son, and their relationship seems to be complicated, but some things could be explained, for example why he left. Fine with the introduction of Rox here, because this fits to the charr, there are many Gladiums around, and all of them have a story and this is absolutely fine.

2. refugees: Here i think this whole situation could have been done better, for example with additional events. So we had lost items to find, and refugees walking down the roads, fine with this. But what about additional events to make the situation more clear? Ideas:
- Escort events: Escort refugees down the road as an event. Escort some brave norn or charr fighters to the dangerous locations where they die or retreat again.
- smaller events cycling around single refugee characters down the road: For example a child tries to run away from a small refugee camp from time to time because it does not want to leave and so it hides somewhere and you have to find it and protect it. A disease spreads out in a small refugee camp and you have to gather herbs or escort a doctor to heal the refugees. Sons of Svanir / Ascalonian ghosts attack refugee groups down the road, protect them. There are many ideas for more and interesting events than simple add an achievement for helping the refugees by lure mobs to them, let them die and revive them
with this events, the whole situation could have been explained better.

after this, i am fine with the missions around cragstead and the hatchery. This was quite good i think.

I’d love them to, instead of making new stories, eloberate more on existing stories: White Mental/mursaat, Modremoth, Palawa Joko, Bloodstones, Human Gods, Norn Spirits, The Mists,…

Lost shore wasnt living story.

Living story is supposed to be a side extension to the main story. It gives anet the opportunity to explore other narratives while still being able to link back to the overall story whenever they want.

Just because F+F doesnt seem to link in that well doesnt mean it wont in the future, nor does it mean every living story arc will be the same.

I do agree that a lot of the leadup events in F&F were underwhelming. In stead of seeing something happen, we were simply told that a thing happenned.

Those refugees would have felt better in the world if they were coupled with events along the periphery of the zones that included an explosion and an impassible door or something.

So, in stead of cruising along and just seeing refugees, you’re walking along and KABLAM, there’s this giant explosion and some refugees come staggering out, babbling incoherantly in shock about whatever just happened, and that leads to a minor escort event wherin you protect them from general wildlife and they try to fill in some details on the trip. If the event sets off and no one is around, have the refugees faint and put an event marker over one of them, in which case you’d res the down refugee and trigger the escort that way.

In stead what we got was very passive, just a bunch of people walking along a road in the aftermath of some disaster we had no interaction or evidence of, and the occasional event to kill some elementals in a tornado storm.

In the end of it all it boiled down to a handful of instanced dungeons, (truthfully a single dungeon, but in theme they were multiple facilities. This makes sense from a development perspective) and while those dungeons were fun it didn’t ever feel like the molten alliance was making a dedicated strike. Those molten alliance events should have dominated those zones, replacing all other events, replacing the mobs in escort events, etc. for the duration of the finale.

All in all I think the story itself was pretty sound, but the presentation was a bit lacking. Hopefully the secret of southsun content is a bit more “in your face” out in the open world. It’d be hard not to be considering that the island is currently almost devoid of pre-existing content.

Dark Saviour.9410:

You need to maintain the tone and atmosphere of the main story so it doesn’t feel like the game is suddenly screaming, “IN OTHER NEWS!!!”

I actually enjoy it when stuff like that happens. I love side quests and such, which makes it really nice when you get to deviate from the ever-present main storyline and just take a trip into the lives of the NPCs who are affected by bandits, evil alliances, or what-have-yous. It makes it truly feel like the world is alive. Not all heroes focus on the major enemy 100% of the time. Some take the time to actually help the locals as they travel, instead of always moving on without thinking about the locals.

Dark Saviour.9410:

That’s a bit different, as each campaign was (originally) a self-contained story (though I will say that Factions’ writing was bad enough that it still managed to feel like boring filler somehow).

This would be more akin to hopping a boat to Cantha and just forgetting about the Mursaat entirely while we go to kill Shiro. Completely moving on would be fine if we’d already killed all the dragons and cleared that whole mess up, but we haven’t. They’re still out there, and (supposedly) are a world-level threat.

Factions was actually my favorite, though it did have a lot of rough spots. But I felt that Prophecies was significantly more filler, which led to be being so bored with it I never actually finished it. And, like others on here, I actually did have characters jump from story to story as I desired. I found it fun to do it that way, as it made it truly feel like it was all happening at once (which, according to the Tyrian calendars, is not true but the point stands).

Some of the background between the Flame Legion and Dredge was discussed in a video tour of the dungeon (twitch) and there was some information on the wiki about it. I think I’d heard a little bit in another vid, but I can’t place where atm.

Yes, all of this is outside the game, none of it was glaringly obvious in the text or the dungeon, but the overall feel was that none of the NPCs knew why, and by the end, they hadn’t discovered why. At the end, it also states that ‘they’ (the npcs) would be keeping an eye on the remnants of the alliance. This leaves an open ending, allowing the storytellers to come back to it, to build upon it, or have it tie in other ways. There is a decent chance that we have not heard the end of that alliance.

Also keep in mind the F&F was the ‘initial’ phase, so it might have some loose ends when all is said and done. Nothing is perfect the first time you attempt it.

Living story should live and not end I thought that was the whole idea of it, the GW trilogy had a better engine for a living story line because you could go back after you finished it and get what you missed

I find criticism about the F&F and the start of the current chapter warranted, because there are things Anet can do better. Myself I could still go for or against continuing the focus of development on the Living Story arcs, but I am liking it so far. That’s under the very clear assumption that the arcs will have better polish, pacing and integration in the existing world. In a way, the things I found lacking in F&F get a free pass from me for being the first chapter of this concept, which is bound to be a bit rough in execution. They have to improve a good deal for the concept to work in the long run, though.

Contrary to some I dont want everything and anything linked to the Elder dragons. I’d be happy if the only reference to them is the occasional tip of the hat to the players role in those events, and maybe dealing with side effects of the dragon activities. Like someone above said we have a whole continent of people with their own agendas and interests, both personal and kingdom-spanning. Let these living stories with that and leave the dragons for expansions.

I also think they dont need to bend themselves in five directions to connect each Living Story chapter with the following. The world is large, things are happening all over and they need not be to be linked.

A transitionary chapter in southsun is a good choice for now because the island was half-finished. I hope they take the chance to finish it into a full zone during the next weeks. That means Map completion, part of world completion, a few skill challenges, Vistas and more permanent dynamic events because the current ones will likely be resolved throughout the chapter.

Here’s a summary of my expectations from the chapters after southsun:

- enough new content to allow interested players to spend much of their time in the area the story takes place in.
- have the events of the story increase the amount of available permanent content in the game in meaningful ways (new areas or dungeons, not just a new PoI somewhere)
- introduce and reintroduce characters from a recurring cast where it makes sense to have players build a connection to some npcs (so killing them later actually means something, unlike what was done in the personal story)
- have continuing and closed story lines respectively, both can work

Myramar.8657:

- no temporary content please.

I concur. I’m not a fan of removing content at all. I certainly understand removing content for special events like holiday events (or special items like the bonfire), but for everything else, why not keep it so new players can catch up on the story?

So the refugee NPC’s moved to Southsun, big deal, take their lost belongings to them their, that way new players can still get the Lost & Found achievement. Instead of leaving bonfires in the major cities where the refugees were, put a memorial bonfire in Southsun (minus the bonuses), so that people can still get that achievement…etc…

Granted, the way some of the content was written and presented, it doesn’t make sense to keep it in this instance (and would make for very busy zones in the distant future), but there are ways to make additional content permanent so that new players can experience it.

Thought ide post something positive after harping on about technical issues in other threads coughlagcough, im actually really getting into this story, at first I didn’t really care either way and went along just for the rewards or cause other guild members were doing it etc etc, but as time went on and now that weve moved into the southsun area with the story extending out im finding myself more and more intrigued and getting pulled into it like you would a book, I say good work, looking forward to it all.

Agree with all his points. No more temporary content. Plots need alot of work. More exciting content and more content. New zones with lots of DEs and Metas for starters.