Guild Wars 2

I agree that these events need to scale. I also agree that acheivements should be more individual-centered. I get tired of people yelling at others in chat.

There are plenty of other faceroll world bosses you can go fight. If you can’t beat it than its not meant for you. Its meant for those who can.

sablephoenix.1593:

(…)You would think that Tequatl might have taught you a lesson; the other dragon world bosses still get plenty of people attending them, but Teq is completely empty. What were you thinking, making a world boss that’s even MORE complicated then Teq?(…)

The other dragons are mindless 1 spam, the same as the champ train.
People come here all the time asking for actual challenge when what they really want is just easy farmtown.

Speaking of Teq, what did you find hard about it?
95% of the fails were/are because of Zerker gear, you’d have everything organized and ready, 10 on west turret, 10 on east and the rest by he’s feet, 2 minutes into the fight people were either dead or repawn but stayed back at the turrets, because who’s gonna notice right? How many times I was ALONE by Teq feet waiting for people to run back in? Hows that meta DPS build working for you when you’re dead?
Now I get it that gear is a long term commitment, but everyone gets at least 5 char slots, if all you have is Zerkers thats on you.

Back to the wurm, the fight is intentionally difficult and should stay like that, GW2 doesn’t need any more trivial content there’s plenty of that already.

The OP should ask himself the following question before making such statements – Is every content made for casuals?
Right now the worm is not hard if you have a dedicated server and guild focussed on raiding it.Desolation,Blackgate(servers) or TTS,TxS(Alliances) which are focused specifically on the PVE content with raid difficulty.The worm was killed by them at least once some have killed it even twice.

The real problem is the loot.The time and effort that you put in the fight is NOT equal to the reward.The loot is really bad.Rewards from the chests have to be buffed.Right now the loot table is worse from Tequatl’s.

moiraine.2753:

The OP should ask himself the following question before making such statements – Is every content made for casuals?
Right now the worm is not hard if you have a dedicated server and guild focussed on raiding it.Desolation,Blackgate(servers) or TTS,TxS(Alliances) which are focused specifically on the PVE content with raid difficulty.The worm was killed by them at least once some have killed it twice.

The real problem is the loot.The time and effort that you put in the fight is NOT equal to the reward.The loot is really bad.Rewards from the chests have to be buffed.Right now the loot table is worse from Tequatl’s.

that’s 100% true. but it got high reward – if you get mini wurm or the anneli-blabla gun (never dropped i think). i like such rare drops like in gw1 in nearly every dungeon.
anet should simply fix the few spawning seconds from the head-phase (those wurmheads are still 5-10 secs invul). with those 5-10 secs more, people can do it. even other servers than deso or TxS. riverside does tequatle the hole day, so they will also learn how to do the wurm. i think the hardest point on this is the timing to kill all three at the same time.

but there is also a really nice point on such events: casuals learning a lot. they learn that you have to doge, you have to look at your traits and not just spamming all the skills. i think the community is getting better with such events, i love them!

moiraine.2753:

The OP should ask himself the following question before making such statements – Is every content made for casuals?
Right now the worm is not hard if you have a dedicated server and guild focussed on raiding it.Desolation,Blackgate(servers) or TTS,TxS(Alliances) which are focused specifically on the PVE content with raid difficulty.The worm was killed by them at least once some have killed it twice.

Wurm has only been killed 4 (four) times across all servers. Phase 2 is just stupid and frustrating especially after you got all the shenanigans with coordination done. Its pure luck, you basically need all the stars aligned perfectly (boss stuck in one spot, scaling not bugged or bugged in your favor) to get through it.

I am afraid with current success ratio event will be abandoned in a matter of days. It is already abandoned by everyone except TTS on NA server, i dont even see BG doing it anymore

Skady.5916:

Wurm has only been killed 4 (four) times across all servers. Phase 2 is just stupid and frustrating especially after you got all the shenanigans with coordination done. Its pure luck, you basically need all the stars aligned perfectly (boss stuck in one spot, scaling not bugged or bugged in your favor) to get through it.

I am afraid with current success ratio event will be abandoned in a matter of days. It is already abandoned by everyone except TTS on NA server, i dont even see BG doing it anymore

It was killed more, but some people complained about bragging so we don’t announce loudly every kill anymore, but yesterday kill with 39 sec left on timer:
http://i.imgur.com/nKehsBA.jpg

Skady.5916:

i dont even see BG doing it anymore

We started hiding our attempts due to people guesting over just to achievement hunt.

Yeah, im a very casual player with 16 legendaries and 16+k achievement point. Please stop attacking me personally and get to the point – in the nearby thread a lot of people admit that all successful attempts happened due to scaling bug abuse (intentional or not).

We in TTS killed wurm twice tonight. Both successful attempts ended with 40-50 sec on timer. Please do not tell me that suddenly we started doing 300% more damage than we were doing in the past 2 weeks

Something is wrong with boss HP if DPS is so inconsistent and this has to be looked at by development team.

I’d just like to say that I’m pretty disappointed with the effort given to balancing the wurm difficulty thus far, especially after tonight’s incident.

Well the “difficulty” is fine IMO. Just because all the difficulty put into phase 1 (which is truly challenging and amazing). Phase 2 is just a buggy mess which needs to be fixed for this event to be consistent and playable.

Phase 1 isn’t difficult, phase 2 is, whether it’s because it’s broken/buggy or because Arenanet wants it to be too difficult.

Phoenixlin.8624:

Given the discussions in forums, you need to learn how to deal with difficulties.

Given the discussions in forums, you need to learn to stop exploiting the scaling.

I personally think the timer thing is just a very lame way to artificially make the boss fight harder, and not in a fun way. I prefer to lose a fight due to poor strategy, and not due to insanely tight timers. That just sucks the fun right out of it. And the boss is all but abandoned on my server. No one really bothers, it’s not a fair, nor a fun challenge.

At least with the Marionette it comes down to skill. When a platform fails, it’s often just bad players (or too few players on the platform, but that’s wonky scaling). Point being, you don’t lose due to some arbitrary timer. The failures add up, and you can see a loss or a victory coming. It’s not some stupid timer deciding the boss fight is over, because you didn’t DPS the boss quite fast enough. Ugh, terrible design.

During our last attempt one of the people in TS told us how a guildy couldn’t make it, cause she had to go to the dentist. I remarked that she was probably having more fun than we were, which got a few chuckles.

No one really bothers, it’s not a fair, nor a fun challenge

Disagree with you 100%. Phase 1 has plenty of skill and coordination require. Far more than Mari.

Phase 2 is a dps race, but there are still plenty of do’s and don’ts.

I’ve beaten all of the three wurms so far, and they weren’t all that hard to beat. So I’m not getting why you’re claiming it requires plenty of skill or coordination. Bursting down those wurms isn’t that hard. But getting them all to die at the same time, that’s what is hard. And what perhaps makes it harder, is a lot of the mechanics that are out of the players hands. To name a few:

• The red arrows being completely obscured by enemies and effects.
• Performance problems.
• Bugs, like the Wurm Attractant not spawning after killing the Plague Carrier Abomination.
• Players not getting swallowed, even though they did everything correctly.

These are the sorts of things that cost valuable time, and cause you to fail the fight. That is not my idea of difficulty. It’s the sort of thing that reminds me that ‘going to the dentist’ isn’t the worst thing I could be doing with my week.

And judging by how ‘popular’ this boss fight is, I’m apparently not alone in this.

You claimed that Mari required skill. I am claimed that wurm requires more skill. It certainly requires a lot more coordination.

This fight isn’t for everyone, it’s difficulty (bugs aside) is a deterrent for a good deal of players.

Bursting down those wurms isn’t that hard.

Bursting down the Mari bosses is even easier.

I’m going to disagree with you there. The Marionette bosses separate the players. You don’t know who you’ll share the platform with, so it very much comes down to individual skill for each platform. With the wurms on the other hand, it’s just a big zerk. Everyone is spamming their attacks like crazy. Apart from micro-managing the eggs, and making sure the adds don’t get out of hand, I found it very shallow strategy wise. The Wurms don’t do that much really, and have very simplistic mechanics. It basically comes down to “Can you spot the aoe attacks in the big mess of effects, and dodge them in time while your game runs like a slide show”.

The real difficulty is killing the wurms fast enough, and at the same time. That boils down to a DPS race, and you want to use TS to coordinate that. I don’t think difficulty should come from a timer, or a DPS race. Nor do I think boss encounters should be designed with third party software in mind.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I’m going to disagree with you there. The Marionette bosses separate the players. You don’t know who you’ll share the platform with, so it very much comes down to individual skill for each platform. With the wurms on the other hand, it’s just a big zerk. Everyone is spamming their attacks like crazy. Apart from micro-managing the eggs, and making sure the adds don’t get out of hand, I found it very shallow strategy wise. The Wurms don’t do that much really, and have very simplistic mechanics. It basically comes down to “Can you spot the aoe attacks in the big mess of effects, and dodge them in time while your game runs like a slide show”.

The real difficulty is killing the wurms fast enough, and at the same time. That boils down to a DPS race, and you want to use TS to coordinate that. I don’t think difficulty should come from a timer, or a DPS race. Nor do I think boss encounters should be designed with third party software in mind.

U still got 4 failures till you fail. and only boss you should fail on is 3 honestly where it one hit kills. All other mechanisms are well known and established as easy kills.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

The real difficulty is killing the wurms fast enough, and at the same time. That boils down to a DPS race, and you want to use TS to coordinate that. I don’t think difficulty should come from a timer, or a DPS race. Nor do I think boss encounters should be designed with third party software in mind.

Im not going to trivialize the wurm boss in any way. Its hard as hell and some people here are really downplaying the depth involved. Yes its a dps race, but organizing how and when that DPS occurs is more complex than just spamming skills fast enough.

I guess the simplest way to put it is that all of the players skills/cool-downs make up the commanders resource pool. If those resources are mis-used, then the event fails. When and how you want to use things like consumables, time-warps, banners, or other long cool downs, varies based on the situation. If a commander misreads a situation and wastes long cool down resources, the event fails. And you have this going on with three different groups, with three different leaders, on wurms with three different mechanics.

But where I can agree with Malafide is that third party tools should not be needed. The Marionette is a great boss because its challenging, but manageable to lead a group that isn’t on TS. It requires macro and micro coordinating of paths and resources, while not being so difficult that voip is required but can be very advantageous.

The wurm on the otherhand I do not foresee anyone ever beating without voip. Not only is it unfair to expect every player to download additional software to every other players detriment, it is also unfair to disabled gamers.

Also, while the event is heavily reliant on voice comm, there is no mechanism in place to enforce it. If your server tries to organize a wurm run and twenty people enter the instance that refuse to use it for one reason or another, then your entire run is hosed. You cant force them to comply because its a public zone. You cant kick them. Your server has no recourse.

Hard content is A-OK. Content that requires 150 people coordinating is fine by me. Something so difficult that it requires other software and excludes players as a side-effect is not ok. Encounters should be balanced with the assumption players only have access to the tools that the game provides and are running on medium to low spec machines. Server competition and much much higher level coordination with external software could still be encouraged with extra rewards for hitting time milestones, or subsequent server kills, or bonus objectives (with no achievements attached) that can be ignored by smaller or less organized groups.

/rant

edit: Bonus objective suggestion reminded me of “LFG HM Mission+bonus”. …The good ’ol days.

TeamSpeak/Ventrilo/Mumbler does make the fight easier, but it is supposition to say that it is required. I had to organized more people in harder fights back in the days when VOIPs were unreliable and laggy, at best.

The event can be completed without VOIP, but it would require coordination, effective map chat usage and exact knowledge of the event by all parties involved.

Not something I see happening just yet.

If we’ll get better strategy, and people will be more experienced, we’ll be able to do it without voip. One of better runs on Deso was with ts being down for 3 minutes or so.

We’re already getting close to have phase 1 almost farmable. And phase 2 is mostly about abusing broken mechanics. Till ANet fixes it, voip will be necessary. After that, who knows?

I’m going to disagree with you there. The Marionette bosses separate the players. You don’t know who you’ll share the platform with, so it very much comes down to individual skill for each platform. With the wurms on the other hand, it’s just a big zerk. Everyone is spamming their attacks like crazy. Apart from micro-managing the eggs, and making sure the adds don’t get out of hand, I found it very shallow strategy wise. The Wurms don’t do that much really, and have very simplistic mechanics. It basically comes down to “Can you spot the aoe attacks in the big mess of effects, and dodge them in time while your game runs like a slide show”.

The real difficulty is killing the wurms fast enough, and at the same time. That boils down to a DPS race, and you want to use TS to coordinate that. I don’t think difficulty should come from a timer, or a DPS race. Nor do I think boss encounters should be designed with third party software in mind.

You are talking about different skill sets required. The wurm is more than simply a big zerk. It is indeed a large group of people, but that doesn’t make it easier or remove the skill needed.

As you trivialize the wurm fight; I would argue that the mari bosses aren’t that much more intricate if at all. All of them have simple mechanics and most of them you can stand by the reactor and avoid most of the attacks.

Bugs alone have not kept the kill count low on wurm. What is the kill count on Mari up to?

My 2 cent: Yes, make it easier. less hp or toughness.

When 20+ peeps are at each wurm and they are triggering its invulnerability every 2min, we should not end up with a wurm that it is still at 60%+ of its life when most of the players knew what to do. You can’t expect 150 players doing the wurm every two hours. unless you make it a daily major event with a major loot.

KOPPER.1458:

Bugs alone have not kept the kill count low on wurm. What is the kill count on Mari up to?

You’re mistaking difficulty for complexity. The Marionette is a lot more easy difficulty wise. But skill wise, you can’t just lay back and let others do the work for you. The platforms do force you be an active participant. And it takes only one platform to slack in this department, for failure. It’s usually not the timer that gets people to fail one of the platforms, but it’s usually a total platform wipe.

With the Wurms, it’s mostly a DPS race. If you consider picking the right consumables for maximum DPS a form of strategy, by all means. That is not what I consider strategy. Taking down the Wurms is mostly just a huge zerk fest against the clock. I don’t find that challenging at all. Or to clarify, it doesn’t challenge me as a player. I don’t really have to dodge anything, since there is like a bazillion things being thrown across the screen, way more than I could possibly dodge with my feeble necromancer. So no matter how often I spam dodge, things will hit me no matter what, so I have to rely on the condition removal and heal spam of the big ball of DPS to do that for me. And I don’t really feel the battle shift in any direction based on my performance as a player.

I don’t think a lot of players find this sort of ‘challenge’ (if you can call it that) enjoyable. And considering the unreasonable player-ratio requirements, and the requirement for TS/Voip, along with unfairly tight timers, I don’t see people playing this for very long. Are the rewards really worth all this effort? Not really. And even when I do beat it (which I’m sure I’ll eventually will), I don’t think I’ll feel any sort of enjoyment about it. Because the victory will have nothing to do with me. It’s not the sort of battle that feels rewarding. It’s not the kind of battle that would make you feel “YES, we did this!”.

Mad Queen Malafide: as someone who was doing wurm for the lat 3 weeks I’ll disagree with you. Wurm is complex in both macro and micro scale. It’s not visible outside of organised runs (TTS, TxS, BG, Deso). On organised runs groups are more spread out. It’s coming to have 4 – 5 condi necros, 4 – 5 eles, and few people doing other stuff on specific wurm. Phase 2 may be an dps check, since we still didn’t find better strategy, but phase 1 is coming to be dependent on every single player doing good job not dying and doing what he should be doing. It’s a bit more forgiving for single players in phase one, but if you want to you, for example, 20 players for keg running on Cobalt, every one of them is important.

On Wurm every single player is important, and every single player can contribute greatly. It’s closer to organised wvw runs than to pure zerg strategy. On the other hand Marionette is a bit too rewarding for the amount of work you have to do. Fighting in lines is easy for experienced people, as well as fighting on platforms.

Divus.3175:

Mad Queen Malafide: as someone who was doing wurm for the lat 3 weeks I’ll disagree with you. Wurm is complex in both macro and micro scale. It’s not visible outside of organised runs (TTS, TxS, BG, Deso). On organised runs groups are more spread out. It’s coming to have 4 – 5 condi necros, 4 – 5 eles, and few people doing other stuff on specific wurm. Phase 2 may be an dps check, since we still didn’t find better strategy, but phase 1 is coming to be dependent on every single player doing good job not dying and doing what he should be doing. It’s a bit more forgiving for single players in phase one, but if you want to you, for example, 20 players for keg running on Cobalt, every one of them is important.

On Wurm every single player is important, and every single player can contribute greatly. It’s closer to organised wvw runs than to pure zerg strategy. On the other hand Marionette is a bit too rewarding for the amount of work you have to do. Fighting in lines is easy for experienced people, as well as fighting on platforms.

But this is exactly like I said, you fail because of the timer. You don’t fail because a player failed to dodge an attack, or was fighting poorly. You fail due being unable to bring down the health bar of the bosses before time runs out.

Now you may end up failing because some players messed up the keg-dropping, (costing you valuable time) but it’s still the timer that necks you, and that is not how I want to lose a battle. Please Anet, for future content, make us fail because we weren’t putting up a good fight. Don’t make us fail because we weren’t fighting fast enough. That’s just not any fun.

My server basically gave up on wurm, its saturday primetime and we had maybe 30 people attend. People here rather go to tequatl which spawns at the same time but gives guranted and easy loot (my server kills him like 6 times a day)

Had a long response typed out and my computer crashed. Suffice it to say I disagree with your points. Clearly not going to convince you, and you certainly aren’t going to convince me on the Mari / Wurm situation.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

But this is exactly like I said, you fail because of the timer. You don’t fail because a player failed to dodge an attack, or was fighting poorly. You fail due being unable to bring down the health bar of the bosses before time runs out.

You do know that Marionette has a timer for the arena phase… right?

Marionette has the same concept of a DPS check, except it’s more forgiving. In other words, it’s just easier because it allows you to fail on a massive level up to four times before you lose on the fifth.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

You don’t fail because a player failed to dodge an attack, or was fighting poorly.

Actually, several times we have failed because several people didn’t dodge an attack or didn’t use their consumables. When you are at a time where you literally have 1% HP left on both heads (after one had died) during phase 2 and missed it because 5 or 10 people went down after getting hit with a flop… You kinda failed because of that contributing factor (amongst other things).

It’s a hard fight, yes. But it’s not impossible. It just means that everyone involved needs to buckle down and commit all their skills to succeed.

sablephoenix.1593:

Make the gorram event scale to whatever number of people are there to attend it. You’ve driven people away by making it require an entire zone to coordinate to within a 2 minute window. People have already given up, the event is totally dead now. You would think that Tequatl might have taught you a lesson; the other dragon world bosses still get plenty of people attending them, but Teq is completely empty. What were you thinking, making a world boss that’s even MORE complicated then Teq?

Scale this event back so it’s actually doable. Forcing the players to depend on the performance of an entire server for their personal boss achievements is asinine.

these kind of events are not ment for weaklings, WoW is for weaklings, you should try it weak one

Nokaru.7831:

You do know that Marionette has a timer for the arena phase… right?

Marionette has the same concept of a DPS check, except it’s more forgiving. In other words, it’s just easier because it allows you to fail on a massive level up to four times before you lose on the fifth.

No, most people don’t lose that battle because the timer runs out. They lose because they fail to beat a Warden, and the Warden beats them instead. That the platforms also have a timer is irrelevant in this case, since it is not the timer that kills people.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

No, most people don’t lose that battle because the timer runs out.

I have no idea what planet you’re from, but on Earth most of the time the platform fails due to time. It’s very easy to keep people alive by reviving each other.

Nokaru.7831:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

No, most people don’t lose that battle because the timer runs out.

I have no idea what planet you’re from, but on Earth most of the time the platform fails due to time. It’s very easy to keep people alive by reviving each other.

Really? Usually when my server fails the Marionette, we see one platform taking some nap time. It never feels like a DPS race. It’s a matter of not getting killed by the warden, which a lot of players don’t seem very good at.

And apparently, this is what a lot of other servers experience as well. As is evident by this thread:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/livingworld/madness/So-why-do-people-still-fail-marionette/page/3#post3612552